Author Topic: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...  (Read 30730 times)

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Online Kjelt

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2018, 09:13:22 am »
We should all live underground, nice 12C base temperature no wind/cold/warmth from outside no noise from windows and a nice green grass or other vegetation scrubbing CO2 on top.  :-+
 
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Offline tautech

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2018, 09:48:35 am »
The BS we've been fed lately is some of the rural land will need to be retired as it won't be needed when other forms of artificial protein come online.
Some in power that think they can flog this BS to the population also maintain in order to look after the environment we need eat less red meats. FFS they don't even know it's one of the most rich sources of iron in our diets which is important for our mental growth and intelligence.......ah yes, we wouldn't want the general population to be intelligent, would we !
Like dumbing down the schools rather than have an intelligent population that could dare to challenge us.

Be warned !
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Online bd139

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2018, 09:52:32 am »
FFS they don't even know it's one of the most rich sources of iron in our diets which is important for our mental growth and intelligence.......ah yes, we wouldn't want the general population to be intelligent, would we !

That explains vegans.
 
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Offline tautech

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2018, 09:58:47 am »
FFS they don't even know it's one of the most rich sources of iron in our diets which is important for our mental growth and intelligence.......ah yes, we wouldn't want the general population to be intelligent, would we !

That explains vegans.
Pretty simple, isn't it ?

My dear departed aunty was one and my dad, her bro always said she was mad as a snake.
I found her OK, just not smart with good powers of reason and sometimes just hard work !
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Offline chris_leyson

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2018, 10:33:34 am »
You can run gas throught fuel cells and get zero emissions. The big problem at the moment is filtering all the impurities out of the gas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_fuel_cell
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2018, 11:30:05 am »
If my government wants to regulate, regulate the noise of these things to 35dbA peak (not on some bullshit low noise setting, which won't be relevant).
A noise limit on this kind of equipment has been set in the law for a long time ago already.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2018, 11:37:01 am »
We should all live underground, nice 12C base temperature

Dig a bit deeper if you like it warmer...  ;)

« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 11:40:14 am by ebastler »
 

Online Kjelt

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2018, 12:06:36 pm »
 :) what are those places like Friesland Germany 178C are those hot wells or something?
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2018, 12:36:59 pm »
:) what are those places like Friesland Germany 178C are those hot wells or something?

The French and Italian sites are the interesting ones, where temperature rises rather quickly as you go deeper. Due to underground cracks in both cases, it seems. Larderello has hot wells indeed, and Soultz-sous-Forets was chosen as the site for a geothermal power plant.

The Friesland site seems fairly average; I have no idea why that specific site was included in the chart. Maybe that's where the authors of the study lived?  ;)
 

Online Marco

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2018, 12:52:01 pm »
A noise limit on this kind of equipment has been set in the law for a long time ago already.
Slightly higher than 35 db.
 

Online Nauris

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2018, 07:10:02 pm »
The French and Italian sites are the interesting ones, where temperature rises rather quickly as you go deeper. Due to underground cracks in both cases, it seems. Larderello has hot wells indeed, and Soultz-sous-Forets was chosen as the site for a geothermal power plant.

The Friesland site seems fairly average; I have no idea why that specific site was included in the chart. Maybe that's where the authors of the study lived?  ;)
Do you have much geothermal energy there in Germany? We have the first pilot plant under construction but that one is only 120C at 6400 m depth. Looks like you have so hot rock there you don't have to drill so damn deep.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2018, 08:49:42 pm »
Do you have much geothermal energy there in Germany? We have the first pilot plant under construction but that one is only 120C at 6400 m depth. Looks like you have so hot rock there you don't have to drill so damn deep.

To my knowledge Germany does not have many (any?) areas with unusually high geothermal gradients. The above-average areas in the graph above are in Italy and France. I understand approx. 3°C/100m to be a typical global average.

According to this site there are not many "deep" geothermal power plants (depth > 400m, and suitable for generating electricity) -- only 35 MW of electrical power. The large majority of installations are shallow depth, for heat pumps -- around 370.000 of them, generating 4300 MW, but only usable for heating:

http://www.geothermie.de/wissenswelt/geothermie/in-deutschland.html. (Sorry, German only -- the English version of the site is just a stub.)
 

Offline f4eru

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2018, 04:51:40 am »
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My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
Nope.
Some people live in the past.
Some poeple live in the future.

You chose for now, but in the short run, fossil fuels are dead, they're the past.
Live with it.
 
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Offline f4eru

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2018, 04:57:55 am »
My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
Half of the land in your country is located under the sea level.
The sea rise coming from the greenhouse gas emissions will threaten all the dams that keep the seawater out.
I think reducing emissions by half is the minimum you have to do.

You should look to keep your ass dry before looking to keep it warm.
 
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Online Marco

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2018, 10:19:29 am »
We're far less than a % of the emissions, it's value signalling, nothing more. Tragedy of the commons doesn't get any less tragic for 1 out of a 1000 not participating. We can't make an impact by steaming ahead ... especially in this way. Just build offshore windmills or something, you still value signal and you give industry low cost electricity. Peons still get screwed, but it's not so bad for the economy.

PS. even with the gas to electric move for residentials, to meet that 50% we still need to either move all the industry out of the country (economic suicide) or import all electricity and pretend that as long as it's generated outside of our country it doesn't count.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 10:23:57 am by Marco »
 

Offline f4eru

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2018, 02:39:05 pm »
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not so bad for the economy
Bad for the economy ? it's not.
Renewables and building up infrastructure creates a huge lot of jobs.
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2018, 02:49:39 pm »
Fossil fuels also create lots of jobs, don't they?
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #42 on: June 26, 2018, 03:30:36 pm »
My nation wants to enact a law that the CO2 emissions in 2030 have to be reduced by 49% relative to 1990.

Doesn't seem very realistic to me. 2030 is like tomorrow. And 28 years have already passed since 1990. The official statements are there: https://www.government.nl/topics/climate-change/eu-policy

This whole CO2 obsession is a bit puzzling. There are so many other sources of pollution and contributors to the greenhouse effect. Why are we obsessing over CO2, and almost CO2 only?
And when are we going to pass laws to SEVERELY decrease fine particles emissions? In a lot of areas they are way over what's recommended for public health despite occasional measures that are definitely not leading to any significant improvement. http://www.who.int/gho/phe/outdoor_air_pollution/en/

Interestingly, water vapor is the largest contributor to the greenhouse effect by far. Human contribution to the concentration of water vapor in the atmosphere is still unclear, although it's currently believed to be only marginal. Would be interesting to study this in more details though IMO. It may be indeed marginal on a large scale, but I think it's not on a local basis. A lot of industrial plants, including nuclear power plants, emit large amounts of water vapor. But in a disney-ish world, water is harmless, right?

Regarding home heating, electrical heating is usually very inefficient. Only advanced electrical heating systems have decent efficiency, but then they are expensive and thus are not installed on a large scale. Most installed heaters are still piss-poor junk. Sure it's not directly emitting any gas, but what's the overall outcome? Everyone and their brother is claiming to get rid of nuclear power as well, yet all we are doing is leading to using more nuclear power. Go figure.

Anyway, just a few thoughts. Renewable is great but I still fail to see any project that has the potential to replace existing solutions. Total is making large investments in palm oil-based fuels. Is this the future of renewables? :-DD *sigh*

 
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Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #43 on: June 26, 2018, 03:45:29 pm »
I dont buy the CO2/green/AGW hysteria, but the #1 energy resource is finite so we can't go on forever like now, that's for sure. I feel sorry for our sons, because there's not yet any viable substitute that's as good. Population keeps growing, energy resources diminishing... doesn't look good to me!
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Online bd139

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2018, 03:54:21 pm »
This is why I send my kids on survival courses when they get old enough.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #45 on: June 26, 2018, 04:02:20 pm »
I dont buy the CO2/green/AGW hysteria, but the #1 energy resource is finite so we can't go on forever like now, that's for sure. I feel sorry for our sons, because there's not yet any viable substitute that's as good. Population keeps growing, energy resources diminishing... doesn't look good to me!

Absolutely. Actually, the rate of population growth is decreasing, but at around a bit more than 1% a year (it's ~+1.2% at the moment), it's stll enough to be concerning. Let's consider an average of +1% a year over the next 100 years. That will lead to a population that is 2,7x the current size (which is 7,6 billion I think), so ~20.5 billion. In 200 years, that would be 55.6 billion. Gigantic. 200 years is nothing on a geological or even biological point of view. So unless there is a *drastic* decrease in population growth (which is very likely and may not be pretty), we're up for a tough ride. Numbers are stubborn.

As for solutions, I'm a strong advocate of geothermal energy approaches. Very little investment in those yet AFAIK though.
 
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Offline NivagSwerdna

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #46 on: June 26, 2018, 04:08:21 pm »
My nation wants to enact a law that the CO2 emissions in 2030 have to be reduced by 49% relative to 1990.
I wouldn't worry about it.  My GPS (aka SatNav) claims to know my arrival time when I start out but magically it is always 'correct' when I arrive despite having a completely different value.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #47 on: June 26, 2018, 04:12:21 pm »
My nation wants to enact a law that the CO2 emissions in 2030 have to be reduced by 49% relative to 1990.
I wouldn't worry about it.  My GPS (aka SatNav) claims to know my arrival time when I start out but magically it is always 'correct' when I arrive despite having a completely different value.

Continuously adjusting your plan according to what's actually happening is a sure way of getting the plan right every time. Isn't that great?  ;D (It's actually how the "agile" way of planning works >:D )
 
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Online NorthGuy

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #48 on: June 26, 2018, 04:21:23 pm »
That will lead to a population that is 2,7x the current size (which is 7,6 billion I think), so ~20.5 billion. In 200 years, that would be 55.6 billion. Gigantic. 200 years is nothing on a geological or even biological point of view. So unless there is a *drastic* decrease in population growth (which is very likely and may not be pretty), we're up for a tough ride. Numbers are stubborn.

I think the planet can support 20 billion max, water being the limiting factor. Although it's hard to come up with good numbers.

The best solution is to give women equal rights to men all across the planet. This will halt the population growth immediately. Of course, without population growth, it'll be enormous burden to support retirement.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #49 on: June 26, 2018, 04:36:56 pm »
That will lead to a population that is 2,7x the current size (which is 7,6 billion I think), so ~20.5 billion. In 200 years, that would be 55.6 billion. Gigantic. 200 years is nothing on a geological or even biological point of view. So unless there is a *drastic* decrease in population growth (which is very likely and may not be pretty), we're up for a tough ride. Numbers are stubborn.
I think the planet can support 20 billion max, water being the limiting factor. Although it's hard to come up with good numbers.
Don't worry. In a few decades the population will reach a peak around (IIRC) 8 billion and from then on there will be a natural decline.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 


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