New battery technology to replace lead-acid and lithium

[Sebastian]

Hi everyone,

I heard about this really interesting new battery technology company through a friend. They developed two new types of batteries, one that can replace lead acid batteries and the other one can replace lithium batteries. Both from easy to get materials and they don't require super expensive production equipment either. I think that could be the biggest leap in the battery world since a long time.
The company is still pre-IPO, so unfortunately I can't tell you the company name or any details, but if some of you are interested, I can invite you to a Zoom presentation after you sign a NDA. Just send me a PM or email if you are interested.
Full disclosure, the presentation is a sales presentation for their shares, but of course you are not obligated to buy anything. And they do go into quiet a lot of technical details and you can also ask questions.

Sebastian

[Slh]

That sounds amazing, almost too good to be true.. Don't they have anything to replace NiMH?

I can't say that I understand the link between pre-IPO and not being able to tell us the name without an NDA. There are lots of private companies out there which aren't on the stock market and the names and products aren't secret.

[Sebastian]

Yes it really sounds amazing. Well, it's one technology for stationary applications, like lead-acid and one for more lightweight applications, so that could also replace NiMh in some cases.
It's mostly about cheaper and easier production and the use of readily available and "green" resources, not higher energy density. That would be even more amazing.

I am not an expert on the business and financial stuff, but I think it's because they are already in the process of becoming listed on the NASDAQ and they have regulations what you can and can't do during this phase.

[Stray Electron]

Hi everyone,

I heard about this really interesting new battery technology company through a friend. They developed two new types of batteries, one that can replace lead acid batteries and the other one can replace lithium batteries. Both from easy to get materials and they don't require super expensive production equipment either. I think that could be the biggest leap in the battery world since a long time.
The company is still pre-IPO, so unfortunately I can't tell you the company name or any details, but if some of you are interested, I can invite you to a Zoom presentation after you sign a NDA. Just send me a PM or email if you are interested.
Full disclosure, the presentation is a sales presentation for their shares, but of course you are not obligated to buy anything. And they do go into quiet a lot of technical details and you can also ask questions.

Sebastian

    The old saying about "things that are too good to be true" definitely describes this post.

[ejeffrey]

I am not an expert on the business and financial stuff, but I think it's because they are already in the process of becoming listed on the NASDAQ and they have regulations what you can and can't do during this phase.

This pretty much sounds like fraud.

There are a lot of regulations about companies getting ready to go public, but a lot of it is about information they must disclose, such as audited financial reports. Keeping the name of the comapny, identify of the key people, and information  about their actual products and technology secret is not part of being publicly listed.

Very early stage startups often do keep much of this information confidential when they are only dealing with private seed funding.  But then they don't solicit people on internet message boards to sign NDAs to attend a webinar.

So I strongly suggest you don't give these people any personal information or money.

[Kjelt]

Good luck with the company.
I heard too many "battery fairytales" the last ten years all from startups who had this huge fantastic innovation.
All to get more money funding for their immature research.
Ten years later still nothing. Hundreds of also big companies are trying to find the big next thing.
Lead acid has been here for 150 years, LiIon for 50 years, we are still waiting for the next generation.
In physical form please, I am tired of powerpoints.

[brucehoult]

There is also LiFePO, which has been around for 20-25 years and is now over 30% of EV batteries, mostly because they are used in recent Tesla Model 3 and Y and by BYD.

[ejeffrey]

Ten years later still nothing.

Keep in mind that I think this particular venture is nothing but an investment scam, but that is a bad and wrong attitude. There has been tremendous improvements in battery technology in the past 30 years.  Of course many startups have gone bust and many ideas have not worked out.  But also lots of progress. And 30 years ago, lithium ion was a "technology that has been researched for decades but has never gone anywhere other than a few niche applications."

[Sebastian]

Calm down guys, I am not trying to convince anyone about anything. It's just something I thought might fit here. I didn't post this primarily with the intention to bring anyone to invest. I do get a commission if someone does, but there is also a minimum investment amount that most people probably won't have lying around.
But I don't care if you just listen to to it out of curiosity. I think its pretty interesting. It's nothing crazy application wise, as I said they don't have more energy density than current solutions, but they can do what the current technology can for a far lower price and without hard to source materials. And of course you will hear the name of the company and financial details in the presentation, they are just not allowed to disclose publicly yet. I found it interesting to get a preview of something that I think will be big in a couple of years.

For a bit of background story, I met one of the founders because he visited the settlement project I live in in Paraguay. I'm from Austria originally. We will do a cooperation with them to be energy autonomous here with solar and their batteries. He also invested in some land here and in turn we are selling their shares, mostly to people who are also looking to relocate here as an investment option, but not exclusively. That's why I get a commission. But again, I don't really expect anyone here to invest, I just thought maybe some people appreciate the chance to hear about this new stuff.

[Stray Electron]

Calm down guys, I am not trying to convince anyone about anything. It's just something I thought might fit here. I didn't post this primarily with the intention to bring anyone to invest. I do get a commission if someone does, but there is also a minimum investment amount that most people probably won't have lying around.
But I don't care if you just listen to to it out of curiosity. I think its pretty interesting. It's nothing crazy application wise, as I said they don't have more energy density than current solutions, but they can do what the current technology can for a far lower price and without hard to source materials. And of course you will hear the name of the company and financial details in the presentation, they are just not allowed to disclose publicly yet. I found it interesting to get a preview of something that I think will be big in a couple of years.

For a bit of background story, I met one of the founders because he visited the settlement project I live in in Paraguay. I'm from Austria originally. We will do a cooperation with them to be energy autonomous here with solar and their batteries. He also invested in some land here and in turn we are selling their shares, mostly to people who are also looking to relocate here as an investment option, but not exclusively. That's why I get a commission. But again, I don't really expect anyone here to invest, I just thought maybe some people appreciate the chance to hear about this new stuff.

     The part in red speaks volumes about what's going on here.

   

[brucehoult]

It's nothing crazy application wise, as I said they don't have more energy density than current solutions, but they can do what the current technology can for a far lower price and without hard to source materials.

I think Toyota's recent announcements are more interesting here. That's a level-headed company (despite the crazy hydrogen experiment). When they say their new battery technology giving 1500 km range will be in 2026 models it's probably best to believe them.

[Halcyon]

Sounds scammy, or someone has had their account compromised? No posts since August then this? Also the IP address doesn't match the location and comes back as a high risk for fraud. Hmm...

[ejeffrey]

Calm down guys, I am not trying to convince anyone about anything. It's just something I thought might fit here. I didn't post this primarily with the intention to bring anyone to invest. I do get a commission if someone does, but there is also a minimum investment amount that most people probably won't have lying around.

Ok, so it's _definitely_ a scam.

And of course you will hear the name of the company and financial details in the presentation, they are just not allowed to disclose publicly yet.

Thats just not how it works.

[Simon]

It's a scam! I heard about this great thing bit it's secret. If I tell you you can't tell anyone. It's the perfect way to stop people finding out about the scam.

So they have come up with a technology to replace lithium and a technology to replace lead acid. Someone knows fuck all about batteries then!

[Siwastaja]

Bullshit. Fraud. Run.

[voltsandjolts]

I suggest this thread is deleted and the OP doesn't mention 'investments' like this again!

[nctnico]

For a bit of background story, I met one of the founders because he visited the settlement project I live in in Paraguay. I'm from Austria originally. We will do a cooperation with them to be energy autonomous here with solar and their batteries. He also invested in some land here and in turn we are selling their shares, mostly to people who are also looking to relocate here as an investment option, but not exclusively. That's why I get a commission. But again, I don't really expect anyone here to invest, I just thought maybe some people appreciate the chance to hear about this new stuff.

This sounds even more shady! Without a verifiable company name & address, naming the people involved, references to scientific papers and patent applications, nobody will take you serious on this forum.

I bet that if people contact you, the return message will say that they need to pay fees to get in touch or something. And then more fees / taxes get added for signing the NDA, etc, etc.

[Circlotron]

More new battery news than you could poke a stick at.
https://www.greencarcongress.com/batteries/

[Simon]

For a bit of background story, I met one of the founders because he visited the settlement project I live in in Paraguay. I'm from Austria originally. We will do a cooperation with them to be energy autonomous here with solar and their batteries. He also invested in some land here and in turn we are selling their shares, mostly to people who are also looking to relocate here as an investment option, but not exclusively. That's why I get a commission. But again, I don't really expect anyone here to invest, I just thought maybe some people appreciate the chance to hear about this new stuff.

So do you have a grid available? Please don't tell me that you have access to a local/national power grid but think that it is greener to "go off grid" as this totally smashes your credentials for having any reasoning ability. Batteries used to help match supply and demand are one thing, going off grid is just stupid if you have one available.

[tggzzz]

I suggest this thread is deleted and the OP doesn't mention 'investments' like this again!

No, and yes

Keep the thread as a cautionary tale and an example of how knowledgeable people here quickly unmask shady practices.

Yes, such "investments" shouldn't be mentioned again.

[Simon]

Quite, no harm in people finding that this is how other people react to such propositions, it will warn them. The whole design of this "scheme" is to keep it out of the spotlight with people afraid to tell about things they think are not right because of an NDA that is worthless if the activity is unlawful, but it's hard to know what is the law and what is not and to the mix there is this cross boarder thing.

[brucehoult]

Batteries used to help match supply and demand are one thing, going off grid is just stupid if you have one available.

Ohh, I don't know about that.

Here in far north New Zealand the daily connection charge is now around $3.50, while what they'll pay you for electricity you generate and send them is around $0.10/kWh.

So if you have enough solar panels to generate your own needs, and enough battery to get you through a daily cycle in bad weather, you need to be sending them 35 kWh a day just to pay for the connection charge.

I average about 16 kWh/day of use over the year (20/day average in Feb and July, with the odd 25/day peak) and that's with electric water heating and heat pump in summer and winter (from now to mid November, and in April, I don't use either heating or cooling, but most of the year do). If I was going off grid I could reduce that quite a lot by switching to bottled gas for heating (including water heating). Actually I already use a wood fire for winter nights (and sometimes days) -- this year I've used $260 worth of fire wood (3 m^3 at $80, plus $20 delivery fee). I already use bottled gas for cooking -- a $40 refill does about a year of cooking.

Running AC when the sun is shining seems like an ideal use of solar power.

Generators are cheap to buy (though expensive to run) for those odd times when solar isn't enough and you'd be tempted to draw from the grid.

I'd have to work out precise figures, but the main reason I haven't gone off-grid already is the capital cost and that I don't own this place and probably won't be here long term. It certainly looks attractive to me, financially!

NB all prices are NZ$, currently US$0.60, AU$0.91, £0.46.

[Simon]

I was not referring to the cost but the environmental credentials that I suspect this secret scheme is being touted with. We use grids for a reason. once upon a time a few houses at a time were connected to dedicated local power stations, I wonder why we connected them all up, once we got over "the war of the currents": the costs savings.

In the UK the daily connection charge is around £0.50. You are paying around £1.75 a day or £640 a year. So how many hours would your generator last and how much does that cost? You have not mentioned how much it costs to buy electricity.

[brucehoult]

I was not referring to the cost but the environmental credentials that I suspect this secret scheme is being touted with. We use grids for a reason. once upon a time a few houses at a time were connected to dedicated local power stations, I wonder why we connected them all up, once we got over "the war of the currents": the costs savings.

Yes, obviously cost savings and reliability and convenience.

But it seems to me the cost of solar cells plummeting in the last decades (and to a lesser extent batteries) is changing this. In the 1970s it cost maybe US$75/W of generation capacity, now it's maybe $0.15 to $0.20.

In the UK the daily connection charge is around £0.50. You are paying around £1.75 a day or £640 a year. So how many hours would your generator last and how much does that cost? You have not mentioned how much it costs to buy electricity.

Generator is for very rare use -- a few dozen hours a year maybe. I see a NZ-made GT Power 3.8 kW electric start generator is $1100 (£500). Chinese ones are even cheaper. Honda costs more. Probably you get what you pay for. My average use over a day is about 1 kW in the worst summer and winter weather, so actually with a battery I could get away with a much smaller (cheaper) generator. But 3.8 kW is probably enough to cover most peaks even without a battery.

My current electricity prices from the grid are $0.7278 (£0.34) peak, $0.3639 (£0.17) off peak.

My daily charge to be connected to the grid is about 50% of my average cost for the actual electricity.

[NiHaoMike]

I say that the next big thing to invest in with regards to residential energy is automated load management. The hardware to do so is extremely cheap nowadays. It would pay for itself really quickly if varying prices and/or demand charges apply. Then it would be possible to run simulations against the data to determine how much solar and battery would be a worthwhile investment. With on site renewables and/or storage installed, further optimizations can be done in real time.

As far as batteries go, the next promising one is sodium ion batteries, some of those are already being tested by hobbyists. I wouldn't be surprised if they go mainstream in a few years.

[Sebastian]

I guess I should have expected that, the internet is crazy. It's good to be cautious obviously, I get that, but not everything on the internet is scam. How would I even scam you with that?
No there are no hidden fees for the NDA or anything like that. You just need to sign the NDA and then you can attend one of the presentations and hear about it and ask questions.
As I said, I don't really expect anyone here to invest as it's a lot of money. 25,000 CHF to be exact is the minimum amount. If I get the right guy by chance who has that kind of money to invest, great, of course I would like that, but I don't really expect it. And if someone would invest, I fully expect them to do their thorough research and ask any questions they have. I don't see how I would be able to scam someone with that, even if I wanted to. I just wanted to share it because I think it's interesting and I get a small chance of making some money from the commission. BTW it's not my job to sell this, I just got into it by chance. I do industrial repair, fixing excavators and stuff like that.

About the topic of off-grid, I agree that it usually doesn't make sense financially. It's the same here, or even more extrem. Paraguay has two very large hydro-electric plants, one with Brazil and one with Argentina and electricity is very cheap, 1kWh is around 6 cents (USD).
But in our case there are good reasons do it. First off all, autonomy. The grid in Paraguay isn't the best. They have a lot of power, but not a good grid, so we get power outages pretty regularly compared to Austria for example.
And the second and main reason is, this is a big settlement project and it is in the middle of nowhere. Right now there are like 230 People living here and round 100 houses built or in construction. We have three medium voltage lines supplying everything now. The project is planned for up to 6000 people and with not even double the houses we have now, we would need to get our own high voltage line to able to supply them. And that's a big project in Paraguay and it would probably take years or tens of years. They have been promising to pave the 10km road from the next small town to us for a few years now and it's still not happening.
But with this technology, we will have our own grid with battery storage containers and solar on the houses. And the good thing in Paraguay is we have like 300 days of sun a year, so solar actually works well. And we can still be connected to the existing grid in addition.

[Simon]

I was not referring to the cost but the environmental credentials that I suspect this secret scheme is being touted with. We use grids for a reason. once upon a time a few houses at a time were connected to dedicated local power stations, I wonder why we connected them all up, once we got over "the war of the currents": the costs savings.

Yes, obviously cost savings and reliability and convenience.

But it seems to me the cost of solar cells plummeting in the last decades (and to a lesser extent batteries) is changing this. In the 1970s it cost maybe US$75/W of generation capacity, now it's maybe $0.15 to $0.20.

In the UK the daily connection charge is around £0.50. You are paying around £1.75 a day or £640 a year. So how many hours would your generator last and how much does that cost? You have not mentioned how much it costs to buy electricity.

Generator is for very rare use -- a few dozen hours a year maybe. I see a NZ-made GT Power 3.8 kW electric start generator is $1100 (£500). Chinese ones are even cheaper. Honda costs more. Probably you get what you pay for. My average use over a day is about 1 kW in the worst summer and winter weather, so actually with a battery I could get away with a much smaller (cheaper) generator. But 3.8 kW is probably enough to cover most peaks even without a battery.

My current electricity prices from the grid are $0.7278 (£0.34) peak, $0.3639 (£0.17) off peak.

My daily charge to be connected to the grid is about 50% of my average cost for the actual electricity.

Your electricity prices are similar to hours in the day time, night time I'm paying £0.08/kWh. So consider that a car which includes the engine is only meant to work for around 5'000 hours. An efficient generator will probably get you 3kWh per litre of fuel.

Here in the UK I have a 3kW solar array with a 6kWh battery. day time rates are £0.32/kWh and night is £0.08/kWh with a £0.50 connection fee. We use about 9MWh with about 25% of that from our own solar. The battery won't get us through a winter day. Today we might manage it because it is sunny and what solar we get is used or tops up the battery. Otherwise the battery charges at night. So the batter is worth £0.24/kWh in terms of savings. If we export it's £0.16/kWh. The battery cost £2000, so break even we need it to time shift 83MWh of consumption before it is exhausted. I have no idea how long it will last in reality, it should do at least 50MWh.

[brucehoult]

I say that the next big thing to invest in with regards to residential energy is automated load management. The hardware to do so is extremely cheap nowadays. It would pay for itself really quickly if varying prices and/or demand charges apply.

I experimented with this ten years ago when 1) I had an Arduino acting as a PID-controller thermostat, 2) I could get real-time current wholesale price for the current 30 minute period, as at my local grid exit point, and 3) an electricity retailer (https://www.flickelectric.co.nz/) started that charged wholesale plus a fixed margin (2 or 3 cents) in each 30 minute period. But just months after I got everything set up I took a job in another country...

 Then it would be possible to run simulations against the data to determine how much solar and battery would be a worthwhile investment. With on site renewables and/or storage installed, further optimizations can be done in real time.

As far as batteries go, the next promising one is sodium ion batteries, some of those are already being tested by hobbyists. I wouldn't be surprised if they go mainstream in a few years.

The interesting question for a home battery is what is the cheapest per kWh of capacity -- or perhaps per LIFETIME kWh capacity. Regardless of size or weight.  It's hard to believe that the answer for a home battery is the same as the answer for a car battery, where size and weight are important, and also extreme charge and discharge rates that just don't matter for a home battery at all -- cars want to have 100 kW, 200 kW, 300 kW instantly available. Typical single-phase home mains electricity connections are capable of 10 kW to 20 kW maximum.

[Simon]

About the topic of off-grid, I agree that it usually doesn't make sense financially. It's the same here, or even more extrem. Paraguay has two very large hydro-electric plants, one with Brazil and one with Argentina and electricity is very cheap, 1kWh is around 6 cents (USD).
But in our case there are good reasons do it. First off all, autonomy. The grid in Paraguay isn't the best. They have a lot of power, but not a good grid, so we get power outages pretty regularly compared to Austria for example.
And the second and main reason is, this is a big settlement project and it is in the middle of nowhere. Right now there are like 230 People living here and round 100 houses built or in construction. We have three medium voltage lines supplying everything now. The project is planned for up to 6000 people and with not even double the houses we have now, we would need to get our own high voltage line to able to supply them. And that's a big project in Paraguay and it would probably take years or tens of years. They have been promising to pave the 10km road from the next small town to us for a few years now and it's still not happening.
But with this technology, we will have our own grid with battery storage containers and solar on the houses. And the good thing in Paraguay is we have like 300 days of sun a year, so solar actually works well. And we can still be connected to the existing grid in addition.

Well with the power coming from hydro there is no ethical argument for solar. Batteries alone could stabilize the "local" grid depending on how much power you can get from the national grid. If you don't get sun 65 days of the year and can manage then why the solar at all? I mean sure, sell the solar back to the rest of Paraguay but you don't need to invest in any more than you want to.

In the UK, on average each home can use 2kW at any given time. If we all used 2kW the grid can handle it, any more and we have a problem. Somehow, due to all being connected together and our power being shared around, we don't have issues even when a home uses more. The bigger the grid the better this gets.

[Simon]

The interesting question for a home battery is what is the cheapest per kWh of capacity -- or perhaps per LIFETIME kWh capacity. Regardless of size or weight.  It's hard to believe that the answer for a home battery is the same as the answer for a car battery, where size and weight are important, and also extreme charge and discharge rates that just don't matter for a home battery at all -- cars want to have 100 kW, 200 kW, 300 kW instantly available. Typical single-phase home mains electricity connections are capable of 10 kW to 20 kW maximum.

Lithium Ferrous Phosphate

[brucehoult]

Your electricity prices are similar to hours in the day time, night time I'm paying £0.08/kWh. So consider that a car which includes the engine is only meant to work for around 5'000 hours. An efficient generator will probably get you 3kWh per litre of fuel.

If so then that's $1/kWh, running cost only, which is only 50% more than my peak cost from the grid. Don't forget petrol generator is for emergencies only, 5000 hours of running might be 50 years. Though I imagine 2000 hours of running might be closer to the lifetime of a small lawnmower-style engine -- that seems to be what e.g. Briggs & Stratton rate theirs for.

Here in the UK I have a 3kW solar array with a 6kWh battery. day time rates are £0.32/kWh and night is £0.08/kWh with a £0.50 connection fee. We use about 9MWh with about 25% of that from our own solar. The battery won't get us through a winter day.

Certainly that's far too low to be able to go off grid.

A quick guesstimate is that you might need 15 kW of rated capacity to generate 15 kWh of electricity on an overcast but not actually raining winter day. And need at least 15 kWh of battery to get you through a couple of days of worse weather in a row. Does that sound right? I have zero actual solar power experience to draw on.

I am considering buying something to power my AC unit on sunny days this summer ... it uses 1100W when operating, but its only going continuously for a couple of hours on the very hottest days -- at exactly the times when the sun is shining the brightest...  It's on a 3 pin plug so I could simply plug it -- and only it -- into the inverter.

[Sebastian]

Well with the power coming from hydro there is no ethical argument for solar. Batteries alone could stabilize the "local" grid depending on how much power you can get from the national grid. If you don't get sun 65 days of the year and can manage then why the solar at all? I mean sure, sell the solar back to the rest of Paraguay but you don't need to invest in any more than you want to.

In the UK, on average each home can use 2kW at any given time. If we all used 2kW the grid can handle it, any more and we have a problem. Somehow, due to all being connected together and our power being shared around, we don't have issues even when a home uses more. The bigger the grid the better this gets.

I agree, under normal conditions. But our community is focused on autonomy, for example we are also working on becoming independent from food from the outside. We have cattle, sheep, chickens and vegetable gardens. Of course we buy stuff from the outside normally, but if something happens in the world and we are cut off, we want to be prepared. But let's not get into political discussions. It's not about financial savings, I 100% agree that you can't beat the grid there in most circumstances, but it is about independence.

[brucehoult]

The interesting question for a home battery is what is the cheapest per kWh of capacity -- or perhaps per LIFETIME kWh capacity. Regardless of size or weight.  It's hard to believe that the answer for a home battery is the same as the answer for a car battery, where size and weight are important, and also extreme charge and discharge rates that just don't matter for a home battery at all -- cars want to have 100 kW, 200 kW, 300 kW instantly available. Typical single-phase home mains electricity connections are capable of 10 kW to 20 kW maximum.

Lithium Ferrous Phosphate

Really? That is what current generation Tesla Model 3 and Y use for "standard range" cars. And BYD. So it has -- as above -- FAR more charge/discharge rate capacity than needed for a home. That's (in Model Y) a 60 kWh battery, with a 220 kW motor, and 250 kW maximum charging rate -- so charge/discharge is at around 4C!

A 15 kWh home battery probably doesn't even need 10 kW peak charge/discharge rate.

[Sebastian]

I say that the next big thing to invest in with regards to residential energy is automated load management. The hardware to do so is extremely cheap nowadays. It would pay for itself really quickly if varying prices and/or demand charges apply. Then it would be possible to run simulations against the data to determine how much solar and battery would be a worthwhile investment. With on site renewables and/or storage installed, further optimizations can be done in real time.

As far as batteries go, the next promising one is sodium ion batteries, some of those are already being tested by hobbyists. I wouldn't be surprised if they go mainstream in a few years.

You are on the right track with sodium ion, I can say that much.

[Siwastaja]

so charge/discharge is at around 4C!

That is peak rating and it comes with a significant sacrifice in efficiency. There is no such a thing as having "too much" power capability. The lower power you actually use it, the better the efficiency, and simpler the thermal management. High charge rate specifically reduces lifetime.

For a home battery, 0.5C to maybe 1C peak is a good rating, but there is nothing wrong using similar cells to what Tesla uses to achieve this. It's not like Tesla uses its batteries at 4C other than for a few second peaks. Actual discharge rate is similar, like, for an EV with 400km of driving range at 100km/h you would drive it from full to empty in 4 hours, or 0.25C.

At some point trying to optimize for less peak power does not give any significant cost or material reductions anyway. EV manufacturers basically use lowest-power optimized cell constructions anyway. Cells used for power tools and such offer continuous ratings beyond 4C and peak ratings beyond 10C but that comes with some compromise in energy density and cost per kWh.

[ejeffrey]

Really? That is what current generation Tesla Model 3 and Y use for "standard range" cars. And BYD. So it has -- as above -- FAR more charge/discharge rate capacity than needed for a home.

There is significant variation in construction even within a given chemistry so you can optimize for cost, capacity, or power density.  I have a LiFePo4 battery I use for internet backup and it is only rated for 1C discharge and charge.  The 4C you estimate for an EV is also not that high.  Pretty much any battery chemistry can do that at a small scale.  What tends to be the limit for large packs is the cooling and the cost of the controller to handle the peak current. 

Lead acid can still be cheaper for strictly backup operation where it is stored at 100% and only needs to survive a few discharge cycles.  But anything where you want to cycle regularly, LiFePo4 is by far the lowest cost in $$ / lifetime megajoule delivered, at least for currently available tech.   Sodium ion looks like it may be able to displace it, but isn't widely available yet.

[Simon]

A quick guesstimate is that you might need 15 kW of rated capacity to generate 15 kWh of electricity on an overcast but not actually raining winter day. And need at least 15 kWh of battery to get you through a couple of days of worse weather in a row. Does that sound right? I have zero actual solar power experience to draw on.

I am considering buying something to power my AC unit on sunny days this summer ... it uses 1100W when operating, but its only going continuously for a couple of hours on the very hottest days -- at exactly the times when the sun is shining the brightest...  It's on a 3 pin plug so I could simply plug it -- and only it -- into the inverter.

Output can vary from naff all to pretty good. We would need at least 15kWh of battery per day so really 30kWh would be a must. 15kW of panels would need 75sqm of space, that is a lot. The batteries would be taking a pounding so won't last as long as the one battery we have that with the grid acts as a buffer tank more than anything. Right now we are up at 80% and the sun is setting, we were able to run the tail end of a wash load that went on early off the battery and do a couple of drier runs (heat pump drier so 1kWh per load not 3kWh). I have had the computer on all day running hard (video encoding).

But we got a leg up of 5.5kWh stored overnight before we even started and could get on with living before the sun was up which then charged the battery when we were not using it so that we could use it later like we are now so that battery has done two cycles today. We have self consumed 7.6kWh today and the battery is at 80% and holds 5.5kWh of useful capacity. Yesterday was a totally different story. overcast an we ran out by 5pm. We can't of course cook on more than 1 hob in the winter without using the grid and in the summer 2 hobs. We got rid of the 2.5kW built in over and sat literally in its place a tabletop over that uses 2x900W. You can actually run one element at a time or set one to be lower than the other. With less metal it heats up faster.

[Simon]

I say that the next big thing to invest in with regards to residential energy is automated load management. The hardware to do so is extremely cheap nowadays. It would pay for itself really quickly if varying prices and/or demand charges apply. Then it would be possible to run simulations against the data to determine how much solar and battery would be a worthwhile investment. With on site renewables and/or storage installed, further optimizations can be done in real time.

As far as batteries go, the next promising one is sodium ion batteries, some of those are already being tested by hobbyists. I wouldn't be surprised if they go mainstream in a few years.

You are on the right track with sodium ion, I can say that much.

and you probably did not need to tell us that much. It's not new, I know, I know, this is different. It has a little twist i am sure that makes it way better.

I'm not that good with physic's but how much to build a tower and suspend a weight down it? how much energy would that hold?

[Sebastian]

I say that the next big thing to invest in with regards to residential energy is automated load management. The hardware to do so is extremely cheap nowadays. It would pay for itself really quickly if varying prices and/or demand charges apply. Then it would be possible to run simulations against the data to determine how much solar and battery would be a worthwhile investment. With on site renewables and/or storage installed, further optimizations can be done in real time.

As far as batteries go, the next promising one is sodium ion batteries, some of those are already being tested by hobbyists. I wouldn't be surprised if they go mainstream in a few years.

You are on the right track with sodium ion, I can say that much.

and you probably did not need to tell us that much. It's not new, I know, I know, this is different. It has a little twist i am sure that makes it way better.

I'm not that good with physic's but how much to build a tower and suspend a weight down it? how much energy would that hold?

I never said it's something completely new, the difference is that they have something that's ready for large scale production and already is in small scale production. It's not just some concept or prototype, they already have real products and they are producing for the first real customers.

[nctnico]

Again, if that is the case then just disclose the company name and the people behind it. Surely they would welcome the free advertising.

[tggzzz]

I'm not that good with physic's but how much to build a tower and suspend a weight down it? how much energy would that hold?

E=mgh, i.e. energy in Joules, mass in kg, 9.81, height in metres. Assume 1m³ of water weighs 1000kg, or 1m³ of stone weighs 4000kg.

There have been proposals to repurpose drift mines with hoppers on rails filled with rocks, or repurpose mountain railways.

A more practical scheme is to use wind/solar/whatever to push water uphill. That's already in use all over the world, even two sites in the UK with a much larger one under construction (30GWh 1.3GW, https://www.coireglas.com/case-for-phs)

[Sebastian]

Again, if that is the case then just disclose the company name and the people behind it. Surely they would welcome the free advertising.

I don't know the details why, but at the moment they are not allowed to disclose this publicly. It's okay to do private presentations with people who have been invited personally. That's the information I have. I will ask the exact reason behind it next week and then I can tell you, but now I only know that.

[nctnico]

Again, if that is the case then just disclose the company name and the people behind it. Surely they would welcome the free advertising.

I don't know the details why, but at the moment they are not allowed to disclose this publicly. It's okay to do private presentations with people who have been invited personally. That's the information I have. I will ask the exact reason behind it next week and then I can tell you, but now I only know that.

Good plan.

The only reason to keep secrets like this I can think of, is that the people behind the battery are bound by a non-compete. So any technology they might have developed while being bound by the non-compete, could be claimed by their (former) employers. Needless so say this would be super sketchy to invest in as the IP can be claimed by others and costly lawsuits can go on for decades.

[ejeffrey]

If that's true they are lying to you.

In 7 seconds of google searching for "sodium ion startups" I find this page: https://tracxn.com/d/trending-business-models/startups-in-sodium-ion-batteries/__75m3u7OmdmdiQccAb2LzDct-AdScxCM60j9ETIBo9uw/companies

Don't rely on this page for anything. I don't endorse it at all and which I don't endorse it at all and looks like it is just low effort internet content farm grist, but it shows the name, location, and funding status of several sodium ion battery startups, several of which are at the "seed funding" stage -- that is prior to series A venture funding, and certainly prior to thoughts of public listings on NASDAQ.  And a quick spot checking shows that these companies do at least exist.  There is 100% no rule against disclosing the name of your company while you are seeking funding, and anyone who says there is is trying to cheat you.

There is nothing wrong with being a sodium ion battery startup.  There are dozens of them and while most of them will eventually fail, that's not what makes this a scam.  The secrecy, combined with posting solicitations on random internet message boards means 99% chance that it is a scam, and 1% chance it's just people who have no idea what they are doing.

Seriously, if you aren't in on the scam, walk away now.   If you are already invested, you should cut your losses now.

[coppice]

I think Toyota's recent announcements are more interesting here. That's a level-headed company (despite the crazy hydrogen experiment). When they say their new battery technology giving 1500 km range will be in 2026 models it's probably best to believe them.

Toyota have been making as many grandiose claims about the next generation of batteries as anyone else. Why should we think the latest claim is any better than previous ones?

[brucehoult]

I think Toyota's recent announcements are more interesting here. That's a level-headed company (despite the crazy hydrogen experiment). When they say their new battery technology giving 1500 km range will be in 2026 models it's probably best to believe them.

Toyota have been making as many grandiose claims about the next generation of batteries as anyone else. Why should we think the latest claim is any better than previous ones?

Toyota are extremely conservative especially about anything that could harm their reputation as making the most reliable cars in the world. For example they introduced their first mass-market pure EV only in 2022, ten years after experimenting with a very limited release Tesla-powered RAV4 (a friend in California has one), and 25 years after introducing the hybrid Prius.

If they say (as they have) that these batteries are in their 2026 models then they have for sure been doing real-world tests with prototypes for years already.

[EEVblog]

Sounds scammy, or someone has had their account compromised? No posts since August then this? Also the IP address doesn't match the location and comes back as a high risk for fraud. Hmm...

If this wasn't an established account it would have been instantly deleted as spam.
I've emailed the OP for confirmation.

As with every new battery, they are literally a dime a dozen. I could have a full time Youtube channel devoted to news of new battery tech. Almost all of them amount to nothing. 99.9% chance of losing your money on any battery company investment.

[coppice]

I think Toyota's recent announcements are more interesting here. That's a level-headed company (despite the crazy hydrogen experiment). When they say their new battery technology giving 1500 km range will be in 2026 models it's probably best to believe them.

Toyota have been making as many grandiose claims about the next generation of batteries as anyone else. Why should we think the latest claim is any better than previous ones?

Toyota are extremely conservative especially about anything that could harm their reputation as making the most reliable cars in the world. For example they introduced their first mass-market pure EV only in 2022, ten years after experimenting with a very limited release Tesla-powered RAV4 (a friend in California has one), and 25 years after introducing the hybrid Prius.

You mean the bZ4X? The car they almost immediately had to recall because of really dumb problems, that seemed to have nothing to do with anything EVish about it? Just basic engineering cockups. Toyota have been very conservative about their time line for solid state batteries, but they keep wildly changing their claims about lifetime and range, depending on the direction of the wind. They seem like an organisation with major internal conflicts about the direction of EVs.

If they say (as they have) that these batteries are in their 2026 models then they have for sure been doing real-world tests with prototypes for years already.

I thought their real issue was manufacturability? There seemed to be announcements indicating they had pilot quantities for development cars for some time, but need years to get them into economical mass production.

[brucehoult]

But we got a leg up of 5.5kWh stored overnight before we even started and could get on with living before the sun was up which then charged the battery when we were not using it so that we could use it later like we are now so that battery has done two cycles today. We have self consumed 7.6kWh today and the battery is at 80% and holds 5.5kWh of useful capacity. Yesterday was a totally different story. overcast an we ran out by 5pm.

Thanks for the real-world data!

You are I understand in the UK. Do you mind sharing your approximate latitude?

Obviously it's at least 50º N, and quite likely 53º or even possibly 55º so you'll have a worse sun angle and sun hours than anywhere in NZ (let alone Aussie!)

I'm at 35.5º S, less than Gibraltar or anywhere in mainland Spain, less than Algiers, Malta, anywhere in Turkey, similar to Crete or Cyprus. Across the pond, something between Albuquerque and Las Vegas. The majority of people in NZ live less than 38º S -- similar to Lisbon, Valencia, Athens, San Francisco.

We do have more cloud cover than most of those places, but I think less than anywhere in the UK. UK averages 1400 sunshine hours a year, London 1675. I get around 2200. Las Vegas gets 3800! Apparently the definition of "sunshine hours" is > 120 W/m^2, which is called "bright sunshine" but is not actually all that bright. Solar panels will only put out about 12% of rated power at that level. But I suppose it gives an idea.

We can't of course cook on more than 1 hob in the winter without using the grid and in the summer 2 hobs. We got rid of the 2.5kW built in over and sat literally in its place a tabletop over that uses 2x900W. You can actually run one element at a time or set one to be lower than the other. With less metal it heats up faster.

I have gas cooking already, from a 9 kg "BBQ" bottle which lasts me over a year and I can swap for a full one at the petrol station 7 km from me for $40 (£18) or refill for less if I take it into the city.

[brucehoult]

You mean the bZ4X? The car they almost immediately had to recall because of really dumb problems, that seemed to have nothing to do with anything EVish about it? Just basic engineering cockups.

I'm aware they recalled 2700 cars to tighten the wheel nuts. Is there something else?

Big deal. There probably hasn't been a new car model anywhere that didn't have recalls. Most can be fixed in minutes, generally at the next scheduled service (or before customer delivery) -- often without the car's owner ever becoming aware.

Here's a similar one from BMW (I have a BMW R bike, though a bit older than those affected here): "BMW is recalling 367,000 motorcycles because of a problem with their rear wheel carrier flanges. The recall affects K and R models produced from November 2003 to April 2011.According to BMW, the rear wheel brake disc bolts or wheel nuts may have received excessive torque during incorrectly-executed maintenance. Tightening the bolts too much could result in cracks to the wheel flange. BMW will replace the aluminum wheel flanges on affected motorcycles with a stronger steel component."

[Hella_Wini22]

LEt me guess - yet another Na-Ion cell ?

Take your ticket and stand in line. 🤣

Na-Ions have been hyped during last years as a robust and cheap alternative to Li-Ions, but then... problems have creeped up.

Just like with perovskite solarpanels and so many other things.

But now, just like with perovskite panels, those problems seem to be slowly getting resolved.

And just like with panels, first cells are to come out in a few years.

And just like with panels, those things are probably going to be far off initial bombastic claims.

[nctnico]

I think Toyota's recent announcements are more interesting here. That's a level-headed company (despite the crazy hydrogen experiment). When they say their new battery technology giving 1500 km range will be in 2026 models it's probably best to believe them.

Toyota have been making as many grandiose claims about the next generation of batteries as anyone else. Why should we think the latest claim is any better than previous ones?

Toyota are extremely conservative especially about anything that could harm their reputation as making the most reliable cars in the world. For example they introduced their first mass-market pure EV only in 2022, ten years after experimenting with a very limited release Tesla-powered RAV4 (a friend in California has one), and 25 years after introducing the hybrid Prius.

If they say (as they have) that these batteries are in their 2026 models then they have for sure been doing real-world tests with prototypes for years already.

Or it is just smoke and mirrors to keep shareholders happy. IIRC Toyota announced to have solid state batteries in their BEVs by 2023. Well, that didn't happen. And it doesn't need to happen. Keep in mind that unlike many other car manufacturers, Toyota doesn't have to sell BEVs at all (except in China) to meet CO2 emission quotas AND be profitable. Their hybrids are doing just fine. Their Bxyz yadda yadda isn't very special as a BEV. Toyota can simply wait for their long term hydrogen strategy to play out. Note how the EU market for BEVs seems to have reached a point of saturation causing serious trouble for all car makers. Except Toyota.

[Marco]

I think Toyota's recent announcements are more interesting here. That's a level-headed company (despite the crazy hydrogen experiment). When they say their new battery technology giving 1500 km range will be in 2026 models it's probably best to believe them.

The fuzzy promises with three different batteries of varying chemistries doesn't inspire confidence.

Lots of companies promising production of metal anode battery EVs in the same timeframe. Stellantis/Factorial, Nissan, Chery.

[brucehoult]

I think Toyota's recent announcements are more interesting here. That's a level-headed company (despite the crazy hydrogen experiment). When they say their new battery technology giving 1500 km range will be in 2026 models it's probably best to believe them.

The fuzzy promises with three different batteries of varying chemistries doesn't inspire confidence.

Lots of companies promising production of metal anode battery EVs in the same timeframe. Stellantis/Factorial, Nissan, Cherry.

Hopefully some of them will work and cause the current 500 km range EVs (model Y or so) to drop waaaaay down in resale value by the time I'm thinking about replacing my current turbo Outback in another 100,000 km or so -- currently on only 149,000 of which I've done 62,000 in 4 1/2 years, so that's in around 7-8 years at the current rate.

[Halcyon]

You just need to sign the NDA and then you can attend one of the presentations and hear about it and ask questions.

Can you send us an unsigned copy of the NDA so we can read it first before making any decisions?

[ejeffrey]

You just need to sign the NDA and then you can attend one of the presentations and hear about it and ask questions.

Can you send us an unsigned copy of the NDA so we can read it first before making any decisions?

The NDA presumably names the parties involved so I guess you aren't allowed to read it until after you agree... /s

[Sebastian]

You just need to sign the NDA and then you can attend one of the presentations and hear about it and ask questions.

Can you send us an unsigned copy of the NDA so we can read it first before making any decisions?

Of course, how else would you sign it. I sent you a PM. It's not some long elaborate contract, it's just a simple agreement.

[EEVblog]

Sounds scammy, or someone has had their account compromised? No posts since August then this? Also the IP address doesn't match the location and comes back as a high risk for fraud. Hmm...

If this wasn't an established account it would have been instantly deleted as spam.
I've emailed the OP for confirmation.

OP has confirmed the post is legit, not a compromised account.

[Siwastaja]

It might even be a legit business made to look like a scam

I mean, it happens. In 99% of the cases, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, ... But that leaves the 1%. If the OP is serious then this kind of "yo dawg guys on the internets, I have a secret technology which makes you a billionaire, you just need to..." is a pretty crappy way of dealing with the business.

[ConKbot]

As with every new battery, they are literally a dime a dozen. I could have a full time Youtube channel devoted to news of new battery tech. Almost all of them amount to nothing. 99.9% chance of losing your money on any battery company investment.

But Daveeee how are we going to get excited for cell phones that charge in 3 minutes or EVs that charge in 15 minutes if we discount every no detail "ground breaking" battery startup.