Nikola semi trucks - Better than Tesla Hydrogen vs. EV.

[DougSpindler]

Elizebeth Holmes was given 9 Billion for a blood testing machine using technology we don’t have and will probably never have any time soon if ever.  And she dupe some smart wealthy powerful people.

[EEVblog]

Convicted of fraud.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/10/14/nikola-nkla-founder-trevor-milton-found-guilty-of-fraud-.html

[JPortici]

Convicted of fraud.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/10/14/nikola-nkla-founder-trevor-milton-found-guilty-of-fraud-.html

will send to a friend of mine, he went assembling test benches for their trucks in germany. When i first told him he had no idea and didn't believe me

[DougSpindler]

That was one heck of a fast trial.  I would have expected the trial to continue for many weeks if not a month or two.  Trevor had the defense dream team, and the money to pay them.  He could be facing 20 years like EH. What “trick” do they have up their sleeves?  Unlike EH, Trevor has $1-2 billion.

[ejeffrey]

That was one heck of a fast trial.  I would have expected the trial to continue for many weeks if not a month or two.  Trevor had the defense dream team, and the money to pay them.  He could be facing 20 years like EH. What “trick” do they have up their sleeves?  Unlike EH, Trevor has $1-2 billion.

The Theranos situation was much more complicated than Nikola.  Not any less fraudulent, but much more complicated, and in particular Elizabeth Holmes' trial also covered a bunch of stuff related to whether she personally defrauded patients, doctors, and customers -- charges on which she was acquitted but was a big part of the trial.  If the prosecution had only been looking for a conviction on financial fraud it might have been faster.  Nikola was a much smaller company with no products or customers., and fewer people to try to spread the blame around.

Trevor Milton's defense made no sense because there was nothing to say.  The facts of the case were mostly undisputed.  The strategy they came up with was basically "yes, my client repeated lied about the state of their development and created fake demos of trucks that never existed while insisting they were real, but probably nobody took that seriously, and if they don't take the lies seriously they aren't really fraud"

[DougSpindler]

But I thought TM had the dream team defense and would have spent millions on motions like EH team did.  He was abused as a child, he had a period of mental instability, incompetent defense team,  and even try saying he was pregnant like EH did.   The saga of EH continues tomorrow with as she claims a witness post trial  came to her house saying the government twisted his testimony.  It’s a long shot, but just might work.  Sunny B’s trial was a quick one and he was convicted.  I’m surprised with Sunny’s millions he’s not appealing.

[nctnico]

Convicted of fraud.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/10/14/nikola-nkla-founder-trevor-milton-found-guilty-of-fraud-.html

will send to a friend of mine, he went assembling test benches for their trucks in germany. When i first told him he had no idea and didn't believe me

Likely because the Nikola company still exists and continues to do development. Nikola as a company has kicked Mr Milton out a while ago. IOW: Whatever happens to Mr Milton, it does not affect Nikola.

[f4eru]

Right move from them, but will it be enough ?
You don't change company culture just overnight

[jonpaul]

Tesla: $7..15K taxpayer money stolen per vehicle
Poor design of HW, FW, SW
Costly
75% of EV charge pts inop

Nikola: several B$ fraude, CEO indited
No truck produced

Hydrogen: 1936 Hindenberg

Li batts: firebombs

I will keep my 2007 Volvo forever!

j

[DougSpindler]

Tesla: $7..15K taxpayer money stolen per vehicle
Poor design of HW, FW, SW
Costly
75% of EV charge pts inop

Nikola: several B$ fraude, CEO indited
No truck produced

Hydrogen: 1936 Hindenberg

Li batts: firebombs

I will keep my 2007 Volvo forever!

j

You might not be able to buy gas for it in a few years.  Or if you can, you might not be able to afford the price. I have an EV…. on my second, will never buy an ICE ever again.  But that’s me.

[nctnico]

Nikola: several B$ fraude, CEO indited
No truck produced

You mean 'founder indited'. Trucks are being produced through a partnership with Iveco / Scania. https://iepieleaks.nl/nikola-fuel-cell-trucks-on-the-road/

[DougSpindler]

There are small lies, and big lies, then there are the ones told by Elizebeth Holmes and Trever Milton.

[Marco]

Though most of the tech is third party, it does seem Nikola will have the first hydrogen FCEV truck for sale. I don't think Iveco did the work for the FCEV integration, because they are working with Hyundai on it too.

It seems they at least did something somewhat useful with the money, can get some hydrogen routes going for trucks and get the ball rolling. I still think the future is liquid hydrogen for trucking, but 800 km range with compressed is pretty good.

[nctnico]

There are small lies, and big lies, then there are the ones told by Elizebeth Holmes and Trever Milton.

Add Elon Musk to that list. He also had to quit running Tesla due to lying about Tesla shares. FCC SEC (*) stepped in with some hefty sanctions. Still no self driving Tesla either...

* Edit: SEC indeed. All those US abbreviations for government bodies...

[langwadt]

Though most of the tech is third party, it does seem Nikola will have the first hydrogen FCEV truck for sale. I don't think Iveco did the work for the FCEV integration, because they are working with Hyundai on it too.

It seems they at least did something somewhat useful with the money, can get some hydrogen routes going for trucks and get the ball rolling. I still think the future is liquid hydrogen for trucking, but 800 km range with compressed is pretty good.

liquid hydrogen need cryogenic temperature and is still only quite a low energy density per volume, that big tank on the space shuttle was almost all hydrogen

[wraper]

There are small lies, and big lies, then there are the ones told by Elizebeth Holmes and Trever Milton.

Add Elon Musk to that list. He also had to quit running Tesla due to lying about Tesla shares. FCC stepped in with some hefty sanctions. Still no self driving Tesla either...

He did not quit running Tesla but stepped down from position of chairman of the board. It was not FCC but SEC, since when FCC controls financials? He said on Twitter he wants to take Tesla private (He talks a lot of shit on Twitter), and got slapped on the wrist by SEC for saying "funding secured". Apparently it was not secured on paper but he had talks about doing so with Saudi Arabia's Public Investment Fund. A few years later Musk told he settled with SEC for a $20 million fine and stepping down as chairman instead of fighting that because otherwise Tesla would have troubles with financing from banks, and it was short on funds at the time.

Still no self driving Tesla either...

They are self driving. Not good enough to be left without supervision though.

[Marco]

liquid hydrogen need cryogenic temperature and is still only quite a low energy density per volume, that big tank on the space shuttle was almost all hydrogen

The heat ingress is on the same scale as the liquid methane tanks in commercial use and they can afford to spend a little more material than a rocket.  Daimler thinks it makes sense.

[DougSpindler]

  Daimler thinks it makes sense.

You are particularly correct.  Daimler is received a lot of government to money to “think” it makes sense.

[langwadt]

liquid hydrogen need cryogenic temperature and is still only quite a low energy density per volume, that big tank on the space shuttle was almost all hydrogen

The heat ingress is on the same scale as the liquid methane tanks in commercial use and they can afford to spend a little more material than a rocket.  Daimler thinks it makes sense.

liquid hydrogen is only a third the energy per volume of LNG and that is already only half of diesel

[Marco]

With net zero on the horizon comparing against diesel is irrelevant (bio-diesel is too land intensive for anything but tiny niches) and the cost of synthetic methane will likely be way too high to compete with liquid hydrogen. Fuel cells are easier/cheaper with hydrogen too.

[f4eru]

Hydrogen is so inefficient (read expensive) that it makes no sense at all in any kind of land based transport.
Hydrogen in transport is dead since a long time.
What's remaining is basically just a subvention harvesting scheme (or scam) with no hope of any commercial success.

[Marco]

What would be your proposed alternative at net zero for a relatively high energy density medium for transport? Aluminum air? Direct carbon capture + hydrogen + Fischer-Tropf? Portable nuclear? Apart from the last one the efficiency wouldn't improve.

Trucking could in theory get away with just faster charging promised by the mythical solid state batteries (though fuel stations would likely need their own 10 Megawatt range battery packs at that point). That doesn't help marine or air transport.

[nctnico]

What would be your proposed alternative at net zero for a relatively high energy density medium for transport? Aluminum air? Direct carbon capture + hydrogen + Fischer-Tropf? Portable nuclear? Apart from the last one the efficiency wouldn't improve.

Trucking could in theory get away with just faster charging promised by the mythical solid state batteries (though fuel stations would likely need their own 10 Megawatt range battery packs at that point). That doesn't help marine or air transport.

I just read an article stating that there has to be a charging station every 60km and a hydrogen filling station every 100km along highways before sales of ICE cars is prohibited in the EU. IOW: The EU does not believe that battery technology & availability is going to improve sufficiently to make 100% BEV practical.

[DougSpindler]

Seems like there are many issues with using hydrogen as a fuel source.  First being the source for hydrogen is fossil fuels?
Then there were all of those scammers back in the 1970s claiming they were powering their cars with water.  What they were saying was it was electrolysis of water which required energy they didn’t mention. 

I think Milton had the right idea….  Hydrogen filling stations at the ends of major trucking routes.  And the power for the hydrolysis of water at those fueling stations would be from the excess solar electricity from residential solar that the power companies are paying to get rid of.  That to me on the surface sounded like a good business plan.  As far as cars being powered by hydrogen, we just don’t have the technology and funding to do it at a massive scale.  And if you watch this video it explains why hydrogen fueling stations are a net energy loosen.


 

[nctnico]

Top tip: any Youtube video that has click bait titles like 'busted', 'the truth', 'reality', etc, etc is false information by definition and not worth watching.