Nikola semi trucks - Better than Tesla Hydrogen vs. EV.

[DougSpindler]

Nice comparison of the Nikola hydrogen powered truck with EV and diesel?  I thought hydrogen powered vehicles didn't make sense with the technology we have.  I might be wrong.  Nikola appears to have a good plan in place.  And with California producing way too much solar produced electricity this might actually work.  It's not looking good for Tesla's extended range semi. 

[ahbushnell]

https://finance.yahoo.com/m/089b8e1e-af87-3d3f-b270-3fdd48a016dd/nikola-stock-poised-for-worst.html

If what they claim is true. 

[HighVoltage]

The German news reported that this was a very elaborate fraud.
Actually it was written as if there is no question that this was fraud.

[maginnovision]

Germany who is making a large investment in Tesla? That Germany? Why don't we just wait and see if they're frauds or not.

EDIT: No, I'm not invested. I don't particularly care if they're frauds either way.

[wraper]

Nikola is a very big investor scam. Most of their claims over the years were frequently changing lies, and continuous announcements of new products. But they haven't displayed anything of substance so far, not to say sell a single car.
https://electrek.co/2020/09/11/nikolas-nkla-house-of-card-crumbles-gm-nothing/
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/nikola-electric-hydrogen-truck-trevor-milton/

Hindenburg gives the example of Milton claiming that they developed their own inverter and released a video of it, but they were able to figure out that it was a Cascadia inverter, and Nikola simply put masking tape over their logo:

[Marco]

That it's a stock scam for a company who's valuation was created by taking over an existing listed stock is one thing (thus no IPO, thus never any real research and pie in the sky valuations). Happens all the time.

But that some old board member from GM could swing a 2 billion investment in that scam company is the real bullshit. There's some fundamental corruption going on at GM and they need to get their act together instead of protecting Girsky ... can't fuck around with 2 billion on the line, that's not the kind of money you shield an old boy for.

[DougSpindler]

Sure sound like this is another Thernos.  But her’s wants I’m not getting.  The guy behind Nikola Trucks, Trevor, was already a billionaire.  What’s the point of his scam?  Hasn’t he invested his own money into the company?   So it’s almost like Trevor is scamming himself.

In looking at previous videos on hydrogen powered vehicles they make no sense.  But after watching this video it really appears Nikola Trucks has a plausible business plan.  (Unlike Theranos which made no sense at all.)

[DougSpindler]

He is an Elizebeth Holmes.  Dropped out of college, knows nothing about physics, motor vehicles, EVs, hydrogen powered vehicles/fuel cells and becomes a billionaire?   He is/was a member of the LDS church so I wonder if some or a lot of the investment money came from fellow church members and connections?

[wraper]

The guy behind Nikola Trucks, Trevor, was already a billionaire.  What’s the point of his scam?  Hasn’t he invested his own money into the company?   So it’s almost like Trevor is scamming himself.

He wasn't a billionaire before Nikola. And sold part of this shares just before going public (there are big limitations on insiders for selling public stock) and actually is no longer CEO.

Career
Milton started an alarm sales company immediately after quitting college called St. George Security and Alarm and eventually exited the business for a stated $300,000, though his former business partner claims he was led to believe the exit payment was "much smaller." Milton then launched an online classified ads website selling used cars, which eventually failed and was then followed by Trevor’s first alternative energy vehicles company called dHybrid, Inc. dHybrid landed a truck-conversion deal with Swift, leading to a mid-2012 lawsuit predicated on dHybrid's failure to deliver on its agreement. dHybrid would eventually be purchased by Worthington in 2014 and, in 2015, Milton founded Nikola Motor Company.

[cdev]

If this is true it would join a very long list of energy related scams going on right now.
What is it thats making so many show their faces now?

I trust the German media much more than the US media these days.

A measly 6 corporations control practically all the media here in the US.
Thats hundreds of magazines, web sites, broadcast media,
Everything.

The German news reported that this was a very elaborate fraud.
Actually it was written as if there is no question that this was fraud.

[cdev]

There is a lot of pressure to solve a number of problems as we see by constant themes in these supposedly "game changing" inventions that get repeated again and again. And invariably turn out to be BS.

Sure sound like this is another Thernos.  But her’s wants I’m not getting.  The guy behind Nikola Trucks, Trevor, was already a billionaire.  What’s the point of his scam?  Hasn’t he invested his own money into the company?   So it’s almost like Trevor is scamming himself.

In looking at previous videos on hydrogen powered vehicles they make no sense.  But after watching this video it really appears Nikola Trucks has a plausible business plan.  (Unlike Theranos which made no sense at all.)

[langwadt]

Nikola is a very big investor scam. Most of their claims over the years were frequently changing lies, and continuous announcements of new products. But they haven't displayed anything of substance so far, not to say sell a single car.
https://electrek.co/2020/09/11/nikolas-nkla-house-of-card-crumbles-gm-nothing/
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/nikola-electric-hydrogen-truck-trevor-milton/

Hindenburg gives the example of Milton claiming that they developed their own inverter and released a video of it, but they were able to figure out that it was a Cascadia inverter, and Nikola simply put masking tape over their logo:

https://dilbert.com/strip/1996-07-09

[Marco]

He is/was a member of the LDS church so I wonder if some or a lot of the investment money came from fellow church members and connections?

The ex GM board member provided the company which provided the exchange registered stock and was likely the one which got GM in for 2 Billion. He's not a Mormon AFAICS.

To me it seems Nikola will deliver cars, but I think they are mostly playing lego with the tech from third parties and if so they can forget about selling at a profit.

[DougSpindler]

He is/was a member of the LDS church so I wonder if some or a lot of the investment money came from fellow church members and connections?

The ex GM board member provided the company which provided the exchange registered stock and was likely the one which got GM in for 2 Billion. He's not a Mormon AFAICS.

To me it seems Nikola will deliver cars, but I think they are mostly playing lego with the tech from third parties and if so they can forget about selling at a profit.

I read he speaks Portuguese which he learned while on his LDS mission call in Brazil. 

Looking at the business model it does seem plausible unlike the Tesla 600 mile semi.

[wraper]

Looking at the business model it does seem plausible unlike the Tesla 600 mile semi.

Their business model changes once per week.

[Bassman59]

Looking at the business model it does seem plausible unlike the Tesla 600 mile semi.

Their business model changes once per week.

It's a total scam.

[DougSpindler]

Looking at the business model it does seem plausible unlike the Tesla 600 mile semi.

Their business model changes once per week.

It's a total scam.

Have you watched the video about the Nikola Truck business model?  It's true California has too much electricity from solar and pays other power companies to take it.  Makes sense to have only a couple of fueling stations on high traffic routes.

Why do you say it's a total scam?  What's the flaw in the business model that makes it a scam?

 

[wraper]

Why do you say it's a total scam?  What's the flaw in the business model that makes it a scam?

Because their claimed cost to produce hydrogen is 7 times lower than existing, which is total BS. Numbers simply don't add up. Yeah, and they basically are not going produce anything themselves. Trevor Milton even claimed that their business model is so innovative because production will happen at established manufacturers  .

[gnavigator1007]

Was linked this article in a newsletter I'm subscribed to today.

https://hindenburgresearch.com/nikola/

Not familiar with hindenburg research and initially thought it was just some bullet-points, but eventually there is quite the long article. Had not been following this closely, but damn it sounds crazy

[wraper]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-14/sec-said-to-examine-nikola-over-short-seller-s-fraud-allegations

Among Hindenburg’s accusations is that a 2018 promotional video was misleading because it gave the impression that a prototype was capable of being driven when the truck had in fact been rolled down a hill.
Nikola said Monday it never claimed the truck was driving under its own propulsion -- though it had described the vehicle as “in motion” in social media posts and other communications.

LOL

[DougSpindler]

Thanks - So this is akin to the Elizabeth Holmes Theranos scam but on a smaller scales and on a much faster time scale.

Only difference it Trevor didn't tell people they had cancer when the didn't. And tell people they didn't have cancer when they did.  And as far as we know, no one committed suicide over this.

[DougSpindler]

After reading the report on the scams Trevor pulled over the past 10 years he's truly on par with Elizabeth Holmes.

How do these people dupe these giant companies out of billions?

[HighVoltage]

Maybe it will turn out to be the largest scam ever.

[cdev]

This all reminds me of the Internet bubble era. Which was a pretty amazing period for the Bay Area that was after the first wave of innovation, when the scammers all moved in, and started trying to capitalize on the naiveta of investors. Companies were set up without any clear buisiness plan or model or products or actual profits. They burned a lot of people. It all seems kind of familar now in retrospect.

There are certain common elements to these scams.


Hold on to your money!

---------

There is a lot of speculation going on with coronavirus, and simple highly likely potential aids to preventing it and the worst symptoms are being ignored, it seems.

This kind of financial atmosphere always precedes major financial implosions.

[Bud]

Has anyone seen a Tesla cybertruck? 

[Marco]

Maybe it will turn out to be the largest scam ever.

Even if it is, they might get away with it for a while ... for much the same reason Theranos did, by using the money to just buy in third party equipment and keep the ball rolling.

They're using GM Fuel cells, Nel Asa electrolyzers and I wouldn't be surprised if the "cooperation" with Iveco and FPT boiled down to those companies delivering the entire chassis and powertrain ... between all that they can deliver something which drives, very expensively.

[wraper]

Has anyone seen a Tesla cybertruck? 

What has it to do with this? And yes, there are plenty of people who have seen it and drove in it. And right now they are building factory in Texas for it's production. Unlike Nikola Vaporware.

[DougSpindler]

Has anyone seen a Tesla cybertruck? 

Yes, it was right after I told my wife we should buy Tesla stock and she hit me in the head with a frying pan.

[gnavigator1007]

The saga continues...
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/21/business/nikola-trevor-milton-resigns.html

[fourfathom]

Just based on the name I could have told you it was probably a scam.

[Marco]

The saga continues...
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/21/business/nikola-trevor-milton-resigns.html

Shares of GM (GM) were down more than 6% Monday following the announcement.

If I were a GM shareholder I would be screaming for GM lawyers to find a way to back out of their deal ... marked to market they've already lost 1 billion of their 2 billion "investment".

PS. oh I think I misunderstood the GM deal ... it sounds like GM never paid them anything and it was some sort of deal for technology access? In that case 2 billion worth of stock was a ridiculous amount of value, but GM might have known it was worth next to nothing and they were just gambling on Nikola surviving to sell their off road trucks for which Nikola would still pay them production costs. A no risk deal for GM, but with severely market distorting PR impact ... which is now killing their own shares, justified or not. GM shareholders should still be mad.

[wraper]

The saga continues...
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/21/business/nikola-trevor-milton-resigns.html

Shares of GM (GM) were down more than 6% Monday following the announcement.

If I were a GM shareholder I would be screaming for GM lawyers to find a way to back out of their deal ... marked to market they've already lost 1 billion of their 2 billion "investment".

Of course if Steve Girsky could convince GM to invest 2 billion for the "privilege" to put Nikola on cars they build themselves with their own technology, there's probably powerful forces within GM who first have to be dealt with.

Don't worry about GM, they actually did not invest any money. GM got $2 billion worth of Nikola shares and not pay anything for that. The only things GM provides according to the deal is IP and manufacturing the thing. Deal is so one sided in favor of GM, it's laughable.

[ahbushnell]

The saga continues...
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/21/business/nikola-trevor-milton-resigns.html

Shares of GM (GM) were down more than 6% Monday following the announcement.

If I were a GM shareholder I would be screaming for GM lawyers to find a way to back out of their deal ... marked to market they've already lost 1 billion of their 2 billion "investment".

Of course if Steve Girsky could convince GM to invest 2 billion for the "privilege" to put Nikola on cars they build themselves with their own technology, there's probably powerful forces within GM who first have to be dealt with.

Don't worry about GM, they actually did not invest any money. GM got $2 billion worth of Nikola shares and not pay anything for that. The only things GM provides according to the deal is IP and manufacturing the thing.

But will the shares be worth anything?

[wraper]

But will the shares be worth anything?

If someone gifts you stock, you don't lose anything even if it becomes worth nothing in the end.

[wraper]

https://investorplace.com/2020/09/fraud-or-not-gm-stock-benefits-from-nikola-deal/

It’s very rare that a $2 billion deal involves virtually no risk for one of the parties. However, earlier this month, GM agreed to take an 11% ownership stake in Nikola in exchange for…nothing.
Well, GM stock investors are hoping that nothing turns out to be something. GM’s end of the deal is that Nikola will pay $700 million to GM to expand its manufacturing capacity and eventually produce Nikola’s Badger pickup truck. Nikola will then make additional payments to GM to produce the trucks. Nikola will use GM’s Ultium battery platform for its battery-electric Badger and GM’s Hydrotec fuel cell technology for its hydrogen-propelled Badger.
In other words, Nikola is more like a customer for GM than a partner. And the 11% ownership stake in Nikola is essentially a non-refundable down payment.

[ejeffrey]

From what I heard, the deal was pretty much all upside for GM.  Nikola was going to pay them to build an EV factory that GM wanted to build anyway, then they would buy EV parts from GM and pay GM to build trucks under contract in the factory Nikola paid for.  They would put Nikola's brand name on them so any blowback would be less directed at GM.  Even if they don't end up getting paid all of the money they were hoping for, or the stock they get paid with becomes worthless they wanted to build the factory anyway.

My interpretation is that it was basically a way for GM to get some of that sweet sweet hype funding.  No VCs are going to throw $2B at GM to build a truck factory.  But they will throw it at "the next Tesla", and this deal was a way for GM to get a slice of that.  What Nikola got out of it was the legitimacy of having a partnership with a major auto maker.

[Marco]

Unfavourably it could be called market manipulation though ... if Nikola goes down, the deal could come back to haunt GM even if in and of itself it had no risk for them.

[ahbushnell]

But will the shares be worth anything?

If someone gifts you stock, you don't lose anything even if it becomes worth nothing in the end.

Except it makes GM look foolish. 

[wraper]

Except it makes GM look foolish.

Look foolish for foolish. Those who have some brain can see this is a good deal for GM with virtually zero risk. Everything to gain, nothing to lose.

[ahbushnell]

Except it makes GM look foolish.

Look foolish for foolish. Those who have some brain can see this is a good deal for GM with virtually zero risk. Everything to gain, nothing to lose.

Let's see how it ends up Mr. Brain Cell. 

[wraper]

Let's see how it ends up Mr. Brain Cell.

Either GM will get profit from it if Nikola succeeds to some degree. Which is quite likely since cars will be made by GM using GM technology. It's basically a chance to get a free money for GM. Or GM simply won't lose anything if Nikola fails, since they invested no money into Nikola, only got free stock.

[DougSpindler]

Here’s something I’m not understanding.  With what is goin goin is Nikola’s stock price going up?

GM already should look foolish....  Nikola told GM they had a deal with an EV battery company that had some prosperity battery technology.  Nikola got scammed and the deal fell apart.  GM went forward with the deal and if appears they probably didn’t know the battery deal was a scam.

I think this entire deal is like a pimple for GM.  It will look bad for a week or so and it will be forgotten.  Remember the Chevrolet Sequel?  In 2011 Chevy was suppose to have this hydrogen fuel cell for sale.

Do you think Nikola will be out of business by the end of the year? 

[HighVoltage]

The deal with GM is not even final and GM can back out at any time until December.
I think we can expect GM to get out of the deal and then Nikola's value will drop to zero

[BravoV]

The deal with GM is not even final and GM can back out at any time until December.
I think we can expect GM to get out of the deal and then Nikola's value will drop to zero

Hey HV ,getting prepared for taking the short position ?   

[radzimir]

> Here’s something I’m not understanding.  With what is goin goin is Nikola’s stock price going up?

I remember, some weeks ago YouTube was flooded with advs for Hydrogen-Shares "being the next thing making you reach without work".

Some German banks may even dump the shares on their AD customers, AD for "alt und doof" - old and naive, they did it with Lehman shares.

[DougSpindler]

The deal with GM is not even final and GM can back out at any time until December.
I think we can expect GM to get out of the deal and then Nikola's value will drop to zero

Hey HV ,getting prepared for taking the short position ?   

You are too late.

[DougSpindler]

Here are photos of Nikola’s new building were the Nikola trucks will be rolling off the assembly line in just a few months.
Nikola has evoked YouTube’s take down policy to remove all videos on YouTube which Nikola feels do not meet their image of truth and honesty.

https://youtu.be/Gz_iNHZPN2w

[Bud]

The founder was eventually charged with securities fraud deceiving the investors:

https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/former-nikola-corporation-ceo-trevor-milton-charged-securities-fraud-scheme

[DougSpindler]

The founder was eventually charged with securities fraud deceiving the investors:

https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/former-nikola-corporation-ceo-trevor-milton-charged-securities-fraud-scheme

He walked away with nearly $2B dollars. He was arrested and is now out on bail. He's hired was is considered the best legal team in the nation.  He'll get away with it.  He's also young enough, he'll do it again.

[Bloch]

Quote from: DougSpindler on November 19, 2021, 08:38:30 pm

He'll get away with it.  He's also young enough, he'll do it again.

I cant understand why anybody will give that man a dime - now it out in the open that he is up to no good 

[DougSpindler]

Elizebeth Holmes was given 9 Billion for a blood testing machine using technology we don’t have and will probably never have any time soon if ever.  And she dupe some smart wealthy powerful people.

[EEVblog]

Convicted of fraud.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/10/14/nikola-nkla-founder-trevor-milton-found-guilty-of-fraud-.html

[JPortici]

Convicted of fraud.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/10/14/nikola-nkla-founder-trevor-milton-found-guilty-of-fraud-.html

will send to a friend of mine, he went assembling test benches for their trucks in germany. When i first told him he had no idea and didn't believe me

[DougSpindler]

That was one heck of a fast trial.  I would have expected the trial to continue for many weeks if not a month or two.  Trevor had the defense dream team, and the money to pay them.  He could be facing 20 years like EH. What “trick” do they have up their sleeves?  Unlike EH, Trevor has $1-2 billion.

[ejeffrey]

That was one heck of a fast trial.  I would have expected the trial to continue for many weeks if not a month or two.  Trevor had the defense dream team, and the money to pay them.  He could be facing 20 years like EH. What “trick” do they have up their sleeves?  Unlike EH, Trevor has $1-2 billion.

The Theranos situation was much more complicated than Nikola.  Not any less fraudulent, but much more complicated, and in particular Elizabeth Holmes' trial also covered a bunch of stuff related to whether she personally defrauded patients, doctors, and customers -- charges on which she was acquitted but was a big part of the trial.  If the prosecution had only been looking for a conviction on financial fraud it might have been faster.  Nikola was a much smaller company with no products or customers., and fewer people to try to spread the blame around.

Trevor Milton's defense made no sense because there was nothing to say.  The facts of the case were mostly undisputed.  The strategy they came up with was basically "yes, my client repeated lied about the state of their development and created fake demos of trucks that never existed while insisting they were real, but probably nobody took that seriously, and if they don't take the lies seriously they aren't really fraud"

[DougSpindler]

But I thought TM had the dream team defense and would have spent millions on motions like EH team did.  He was abused as a child, he had a period of mental instability, incompetent defense team,  and even try saying he was pregnant like EH did.   The saga of EH continues tomorrow with as she claims a witness post trial  came to her house saying the government twisted his testimony.  It’s a long shot, but just might work.  Sunny B’s trial was a quick one and he was convicted.  I’m surprised with Sunny’s millions he’s not appealing.

[nctnico]

Convicted of fraud.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/10/14/nikola-nkla-founder-trevor-milton-found-guilty-of-fraud-.html

will send to a friend of mine, he went assembling test benches for their trucks in germany. When i first told him he had no idea and didn't believe me

Likely because the Nikola company still exists and continues to do development. Nikola as a company has kicked Mr Milton out a while ago. IOW: Whatever happens to Mr Milton, it does not affect Nikola.

[f4eru]

Right move from them, but will it be enough ?
You don't change company culture just overnight

[jonpaul]

Tesla: $7..15K taxpayer money stolen per vehicle
Poor design of HW, FW, SW
Costly
75% of EV charge pts inop

Nikola: several B$ fraude, CEO indited
No truck produced

Hydrogen: 1936 Hindenberg

Li batts: firebombs

I will keep my 2007 Volvo forever!

j

[DougSpindler]

Tesla: $7..15K taxpayer money stolen per vehicle
Poor design of HW, FW, SW
Costly
75% of EV charge pts inop

Nikola: several B$ fraude, CEO indited
No truck produced

Hydrogen: 1936 Hindenberg

Li batts: firebombs

I will keep my 2007 Volvo forever!

j

You might not be able to buy gas for it in a few years.  Or if you can, you might not be able to afford the price. I have an EV…. on my second, will never buy an ICE ever again.  But that’s me.

[nctnico]

Nikola: several B$ fraude, CEO indited
No truck produced

You mean 'founder indited'. Trucks are being produced through a partnership with Iveco / Scania. https://iepieleaks.nl/nikola-fuel-cell-trucks-on-the-road/

[DougSpindler]

There are small lies, and big lies, then there are the ones told by Elizebeth Holmes and Trever Milton.

[Marco]

Though most of the tech is third party, it does seem Nikola will have the first hydrogen FCEV truck for sale. I don't think Iveco did the work for the FCEV integration, because they are working with Hyundai on it too.

It seems they at least did something somewhat useful with the money, can get some hydrogen routes going for trucks and get the ball rolling. I still think the future is liquid hydrogen for trucking, but 800 km range with compressed is pretty good.

[nctnico]

There are small lies, and big lies, then there are the ones told by Elizebeth Holmes and Trever Milton.

Add Elon Musk to that list. He also had to quit running Tesla due to lying about Tesla shares. FCC SEC (*) stepped in with some hefty sanctions. Still no self driving Tesla either...

* Edit: SEC indeed. All those US abbreviations for government bodies...

[langwadt]

Though most of the tech is third party, it does seem Nikola will have the first hydrogen FCEV truck for sale. I don't think Iveco did the work for the FCEV integration, because they are working with Hyundai on it too.

It seems they at least did something somewhat useful with the money, can get some hydrogen routes going for trucks and get the ball rolling. I still think the future is liquid hydrogen for trucking, but 800 km range with compressed is pretty good.

liquid hydrogen need cryogenic temperature and is still only quite a low energy density per volume, that big tank on the space shuttle was almost all hydrogen

[wraper]

There are small lies, and big lies, then there are the ones told by Elizebeth Holmes and Trever Milton.

Add Elon Musk to that list. He also had to quit running Tesla due to lying about Tesla shares. FCC stepped in with some hefty sanctions. Still no self driving Tesla either...

He did not quit running Tesla but stepped down from position of chairman of the board. It was not FCC but SEC, since when FCC controls financials? He said on Twitter he wants to take Tesla private (He talks a lot of shit on Twitter), and got slapped on the wrist by SEC for saying "funding secured". Apparently it was not secured on paper but he had talks about doing so with Saudi Arabia's Public Investment Fund. A few years later Musk told he settled with SEC for a $20 million fine and stepping down as chairman instead of fighting that because otherwise Tesla would have troubles with financing from banks, and it was short on funds at the time.

Still no self driving Tesla either...

They are self driving. Not good enough to be left without supervision though.

[Marco]

liquid hydrogen need cryogenic temperature and is still only quite a low energy density per volume, that big tank on the space shuttle was almost all hydrogen

The heat ingress is on the same scale as the liquid methane tanks in commercial use and they can afford to spend a little more material than a rocket.  Daimler thinks it makes sense.

[DougSpindler]

  Daimler thinks it makes sense.

You are particularly correct.  Daimler is received a lot of government to money to “think” it makes sense.

[langwadt]

liquid hydrogen need cryogenic temperature and is still only quite a low energy density per volume, that big tank on the space shuttle was almost all hydrogen

The heat ingress is on the same scale as the liquid methane tanks in commercial use and they can afford to spend a little more material than a rocket.  Daimler thinks it makes sense.

liquid hydrogen is only a third the energy per volume of LNG and that is already only half of diesel

[Marco]

With net zero on the horizon comparing against diesel is irrelevant (bio-diesel is too land intensive for anything but tiny niches) and the cost of synthetic methane will likely be way too high to compete with liquid hydrogen. Fuel cells are easier/cheaper with hydrogen too.

[f4eru]

Hydrogen is so inefficient (read expensive) that it makes no sense at all in any kind of land based transport.
Hydrogen in transport is dead since a long time.
What's remaining is basically just a subvention harvesting scheme (or scam) with no hope of any commercial success.

[Marco]

What would be your proposed alternative at net zero for a relatively high energy density medium for transport? Aluminum air? Direct carbon capture + hydrogen + Fischer-Tropf? Portable nuclear? Apart from the last one the efficiency wouldn't improve.

Trucking could in theory get away with just faster charging promised by the mythical solid state batteries (though fuel stations would likely need their own 10 Megawatt range battery packs at that point). That doesn't help marine or air transport.

[nctnico]

What would be your proposed alternative at net zero for a relatively high energy density medium for transport? Aluminum air? Direct carbon capture + hydrogen + Fischer-Tropf? Portable nuclear? Apart from the last one the efficiency wouldn't improve.

Trucking could in theory get away with just faster charging promised by the mythical solid state batteries (though fuel stations would likely need their own 10 Megawatt range battery packs at that point). That doesn't help marine or air transport.

I just read an article stating that there has to be a charging station every 60km and a hydrogen filling station every 100km along highways before sales of ICE cars is prohibited in the EU. IOW: The EU does not believe that battery technology & availability is going to improve sufficiently to make 100% BEV practical.

[DougSpindler]

Seems like there are many issues with using hydrogen as a fuel source.  First being the source for hydrogen is fossil fuels?
Then there were all of those scammers back in the 1970s claiming they were powering their cars with water.  What they were saying was it was electrolysis of water which required energy they didn’t mention. 

I think Milton had the right idea….  Hydrogen filling stations at the ends of major trucking routes.  And the power for the hydrolysis of water at those fueling stations would be from the excess solar electricity from residential solar that the power companies are paying to get rid of.  That to me on the surface sounded like a good business plan.  As far as cars being powered by hydrogen, we just don’t have the technology and funding to do it at a massive scale.  And if you watch this video it explains why hydrogen fueling stations are a net energy loosen.


 

[nctnico]

Top tip: any Youtube video that has click bait titles like 'busted', 'the truth', 'reality', etc, etc is false information by definition and not worth watching.

[DougSpindler]

Top tip: any Youtube video that has click bait titles like 'busted', 'the truth', 'reality', etc, etc is false information by definition and not worth watching.

Nope, that’s Fake News. Dave busts stuff all the time and tells why.  Rethink your answer.

[nctnico]

Didn't it occur to you that Dave needs to make such videos as well to cash in from Youtube? He has got a family to feed.

[DougSpindler]

Didn't it occur to you that Dave needs to make such videos as well to cash in from Youtube? He has got a family to feed.

Yes, but Dave is using words you say when you see them should not be trusted.  I trust Dave… so not going to agree with what you are claiming. 

[f4eru]

What would be your proposed alternative at net zero for a relatively high energy density medium for transport?

1) Lithium batteries, LiFePo, and Nickel based.
2) Electrons in Copper and aluminium overhead lines.

[Marco]

High voltage lines a couple meter over all the highways, that has problems too. I think hydrogen is more realistic.

Also doesn't help marine transport, which in and of itself is already too big a consumer for bio-fuel.

[f4eru]

not exactly. You put high voltage lines over the railways, not the highways. That's where they belong.