fuel cells?? are there any?

[coppercone2]

So a decade ago there was some chit and some chat about portable fuel cells that are powered by hydrogen, butane, etc.


I see nothing when I search for this after maybe 2014. Ok I get it they might not have the biggest market appeal.


But is there anything to buy, for those people still interested? I have a small hydrogen cartridge I filled up. I even thought about buying some fuel cell modules to play with.

I still think its a awesome concept. AFAIK it does not age too much, you can keep a tank of  gas for half a decade easy without any degradation. Generators are still unpleasant to work with IMO, even with auto start and propane. I have a power station portable but it scares me, that is like having all the fuel and oxidizer mixed up with a whole lot of assurances about thin foils and windings. I had more then a few bad nights wondering about lithium battery integrity in the plastic box

The hydrogen tank that uses the palladium or w/e is hardly scary.... I opened it up and it makes one gust of gas and then it is like saturated to low flow. There is only 1 valve to rely on. I think its nice. But this is only a 10L micro tank for I guess micro experiments with fuel cells.


I mean either a portable device <100W or a small box that is between 300-1000W. You would still think if they made one that runs on a camping stove butane it would be a slam dunk product??

[brucehoult]

https://www.upstartpower.com/upgen-nxg

https://wattfuelcell.com/products/watt-home/

https://www.redhawkenergy.net/solid-oxide-fuel-cells/

[mikeselectricstuff]

For <100w, lithium batteries are hard to beat.
Butane/propane seems attractive but I've never seen it done in practice, so there must be a good reason it's not practical.
If you could make a power source that could be run from something like a butane lighter refill, that would be such an attractive product that it would surely exist if it was possible.

[mikeselectricstuff]

The hydrogen tank that uses the palladium or w/e is hardly scary....

For smaller capacities, hydrogen is absorbed in fine powders, which can be scary.
https://youtu.be/y48wCuC3KcA?t=2840

[tszaboo]

For <100w, lithium batteries are hard to beat.
Butane/propane seems attractive but I've never seen it done in practice, so there must be a good reason it's not practical.
If you could make a power source that could be run from something like a butane lighter refill, that would be such an attractive product that it would surely exist if it was possible.

I still don't get why CHP is not widespread adapted, when your central heating boiler also outputs electricity. It has an overall 20-30% reduced emissions compared to boilers and power plants, which is crazy good. Adaptation would have a larger effect than all electric car sales combined.
The only thing I can think of is that politicians have no way of dealing with households generating "green" solar and the ugly dirty CHP (that BTW only emits CO2 and H2O). So let's just skip that.

So a decade ago there was some chit and some chat about portable fuel cells that are powered by hydrogen, butane, etc.


I see nothing when I search for this after maybe 2014. Ok I get it they might not have the biggest market appeal.


But is there anything to buy

You can buy a diesel generator. About I think it's about 80 cents/KWh from the fuel here which is probably the most expensive around the world.

[Siwastaja]

I still don't get why CHP is not widespread adapted

I have been playing with this idea since it seems to make a lot of sense on paper. My guess is: those small mechanical real-world difficulties which make small modular home-CHP boilers way too expensive, and/or require a lot of maintenance.

It's not like politicians are literally forbidding doing them. If they were easy enough to engineer, we would already have companies selling them successfully and growing their business.

[brucehoult]

You can buy a diesel generator. About I think it's about 80 cents/KWh from the fuel here which is probably the most expensive around the world.

I worked out around US$1.20/kWh for my small 98cc 2kW petrol generator, and fuel is expensive here compared to Australia and USA, but cheap compared to Europe.

Diesel generators tend to be in larger sizes and quite expensive. The benefit for a generator I'm probably only going to use on average to generate 50kWh a year is it cost only $500 to buy.

[coppercone2]

The hydrogen tank that uses the palladium or w/e is hardly scary....

For smaller capacities, hydrogen is absorbed in fine powders, which can be scary.
https://youtu.be/y48wCuC3KcA?t=2840

lmfao they built it like a thermite grenade

[coppercone2]

T here is claims that they had a butane powered laptop as a prototype for a big manufacturer.

I racked my brain and the only thing I recall is that MAYBE some long gone publication said something about butane purity being important. But surely 2x distilled popular butane brand must have been good enough?



But what happened. They all.... skid away into the woods very covertly. Up to 2015 IMO you would hear about it all the time. Then its just... disappeared. Lets say some moderately small thing for 200W.

Its mysterious enough to be a plot line for a scifi show episode.

Does no one have some long burried news paper headline that explains the sudden disappearance of this tech?

[mikeselectricstuff]

I still don't get why CHP is not widespread adapted, when your central heating boiler also outputs electricity.[

One reason is probably that unless it can provide enough for the whole house, you then get into the complexities of switching/balancing between the CHP's output and the grid supply.
I suspect the efficiency at lower powers, and at the range of powers used for a single home isn't good enough to be worth the cost.

[tszaboo]

I still don't get why CHP is not widespread adapted, when your central heating boiler also outputs electricity.[

One reason is probably that unless it can provide enough for the whole house, you then get into the complexities of switching/balancing between the CHP's output and the grid supply.
I suspect the efficiency at lower powers, and at the range of powers used for a single home isn't good enough to be worth the cost.

Usually the amount of electricity generated is dictated by the heating needs. It's not a solar panel and not a primary source of electricity. It's a boiler that also makes electricity when possible. The studies I saw a decade ago, they were saying that it would have good ROI on it similar to solar, and it would compliment solar since the generation would happen during winter.
But it needs subsidies to kickstart it. You will not have cheap systems if they only make a handful. And if you don't have cheap systems nobody buys them. Chicken and the egg. But if you look at the gas-o-phobia that EU countries exhibited I'm not surprised nothing happened with it. They even tried to ban installing gas boilers here from 2026, even replacement ones. Insanity.

[Siwastaja]

Usually the amount of electricity generated is dictated by the heating needs.

You still need sustained peaks. Like, cook something in oven, make food on the stove, run dishwasher, washing machine and tumble drier all the same time and you'll easily need >10kW, maybe for hour or two. And then you need 200W for the fridge, TV and some lights for the next 10 hours. So the dynamic range is large. Batteries can be used to smooth it down but they are an expensive solution again.

And then half of the year you have very little heating needs, just hot water and sometimes not a lot of it. What then? Now your efficiency is crap because you are wasting the heat.

It would make sense if it could be made cheap and maintenance-free. Then it would be a no-brainer to add one, possibly underdimensioned for the peaks (but not too small either), and keep the grid connection.

[mtwieg]

The only talk of fuel cells I've heard of in the last five years is from Toyota. Apparently they are still very invested in developing FCVs like the Mirai. Though I don't see what benefits they offer compared to EVs.

[brucehoult]

The only talk of fuel cells I've heard of in the last five years is from Toyota. Apparently they are still very invested in developing FCVs like the Mirai. Though I don't see what benefits they offer compared to EVs.

They could if they worked reliably for a long time and used a sensible fuel (NOT hydrogen): methane, propane, butane, methanol, ethanol, ...  (Q: why does no one talk about ethane? Something wrong with it?)

[tszaboo]

The only talk of fuel cells I've heard of in the last five years is from Toyota. Apparently they are still very invested in developing FCVs like the Mirai. Though I don't see what benefits they offer compared to EVs.

The Mirai is sold in certain parts of the world with a fuel card of 15000 dollars, and a price not much higher than that.
The car right now makes zero sense. Hydrogen is very expensive, making the car almost double the price to drive compared to a ICE.
Add that that the price of the car here is like 70K EUR. Has a range of 700km, less than most cars, and it depends on where you load it and temperature. The only way that car would make any sense if it would be a plugin hybrid, and the hydrogen would cost much less. Right now the only way to use it as a commuter car, if you live next to the refuel station. There is like one 20 minute drive from where I live, it would be a mayor inconvenience to run that car. And apparently these stations are quite unreliable, they open an close down, and they might be empty sometimes. Then the car is unusable.

[coppercone2]

IMO hydrogen is the 'end game' because at some point using only water and a PEM cell you can make it anywhere. The most rupe goldberg process would be to electrolyze peltier water you condense in the desert.


So a hydrogen device is truly possible to isolate from basically all dependence.


Like if you live on Tatooine, and drive your 80 year old hover car to Mos Eisley once a month, mostly doing work from home on the mushroom farm.


Theoretically its better then batteries because the exchange membrane is... small. compared to the rest of the system, while the battery is the whole system. Keeping a stock pile of 10 spare hydrogen membrane sets in a large closet is possible, since the rest of the system is mechanical and you can fix it with soapy water and a welding machine of some kind.

I think a space colonist would use H2.


Personally I think propane power would be just fine for right now...


My little hydride tank is 10 years old right now. I have been meaning to do a weight experiment to see if it degraded in hydrogen storage capability. 10 year old batteries... are almost always shit. IDK how well this thing fared though.


I think 'long lasting' fuel resources are kind of rare. Sealed kerosene has a 3 year shelf life. Gasoline just sucks. Batteries 'leak' like crazy (nickel iron) or age alot (lithium). High pressure tanks need hydrostatic testing every 8 years or so. Of course hydride tanks probobly age, but I wonder how much.

Of course buying freshly spun electricity from the power company is probably the best option.