Author Topic: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...  (Read 4458 times)

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Offline Heiko Wagner

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Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« on: November 14, 2018, 03:50:06 pm »
here we go again.

Now in Germany a first solar pathway was deployed...

http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/erftstadt-bei-koeln-deutschlands-erster-solar-radweg-oeffnet-a-1237681.html

rough data:

200m², estimated output-power ~16k kW/h per year...

and they want to deice them, when covered with ice... and that with a positive outcome.

EDIT:

another source with video...

https://www.n-tv.de/mediathek/videos/wirtschaft/Erster-Solarweg-Deutschlands-geht-ans-Netz-article20718090.html
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 04:03:36 pm by Heiko Wagner »
 

Offline electrodacus

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2018, 08:47:32 pm »
Did they mentioned a price of just 250 euro /m^2  Curios what will that include as it seems fairly low.
Drop ins solar PV cell price is so high that they are almost free now still that will not happen with glass and for roads that is way thinker than regular 3mm PV panel glass.
Currency you can buy a m^2 of traditional PV panels with under $100 and very little of that represents the PV cell cost maybe less than 20%.

De-ice by heating the pathway makes no sense as way to much energy will be needed and can make things even worse.


Offline DougSpindler

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2018, 04:36:25 pm »
The Chinese did the same thing not too long ago;.  YouTube video posted.  It took the Chinese a week to figur out how to drive the solar roadway.  It’s a demonstration of how the Chinese have a technological superiority over the rest of the wold when it cones to solar roadways.  The Germans must still be amazed at how the Chinese government could get the de-icing to work when Germans engineers couldn’t.  Guess they haven’t watched the video by this British guy. (4:04)  The Chineese secret is called a broom.

https://youtu.be/dkeu07U3060


 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2018, 04:54:50 pm »
Yeah melting snow is not a good purpose of a solar roadway. You can probably tell the real solar roadways apart from the pipe-dream ones if people start to mention melting snow. The latter probably missed a few basic physics classes.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2018, 05:21:58 pm »
I'm not sure this is going to help Germany stop mining and burning large amounts of lignite.
 |O
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2018, 03:11:03 am »
I'm not sure this is going to help Germany stop mining and burning large amounts of lignite.
 |O

They have to....  The dummies are shuttering their nuclear power plants.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2018, 01:12:11 pm »
I'm not sure this is going to help Germany stop mining and burning large amounts of lignite.
 |O
They have to....  The dummies are shuttering their nuclear power plants.
And on top of that the Germans will need to supply extra electricity to the Netherlands as well if we shut our coal power plants down.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2018, 05:28:03 pm »
France and nuclear to the rescue.  Isn’t 80% of the electricty France produces comes from nucler?  And when Germany has no sun or wind it’s France’s nucler produced electricty that keep the German machinery running and the Germans warm?  And isn’t it France that’s building next generation nuclear, ITER?    Isn’t this a case of German research being built in France?   Or we want the electricty but if something goes wrong it will be your country, not ours threat will be radioactive.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2018, 05:39:45 pm »
France and nuclear to the rescue.  Isn’t 80% of the electricty France produces comes from nucler?  And when Germany has no sun or wind it’s France’s nucler produced electricty that keep the German machinery running and the Germans warm?  And isn’t it France that’s building next generation nuclear, ITER?    Isn’t this a case of German research being built in France?   Or we want the electricty but if something goes wrong it will be your country, not ours threat will be radioactive.
France produces around 72% of the electricity from nuclear power plants. But it isn't like that France can suddenly supply Germany with electricity. The grid connections don't have such a capacity. The electricity grid is built to bring locally produced electricity to local loads with some extra capacity to switch between power plants to have some form of redundancy. You have to understand that a piece of grid which isn't running at near full capacity isn't earning the money invested in it.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2018, 05:53:45 pm »
Isn’t much of Western Europe on one or a couple of interconnected grids.  I know the Western United States, California, Oregon, Nevada, Washington, Arizona and New Mexico is all on one grid.  PG&E built it’s coal fired power plants in New Mexico so California would get any of the pollution.

It was my understanding when Germany electrical needs exceed what they can produce it comes from France, specifically from their nuclear power plants.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2018, 06:31:29 pm »
France and nuclear to the rescue.  Isn’t 80% of the electricty France produces comes from nucler?  And when Germany has no sun or wind it’s France’s nucler produced electricty that keep the German machinery running and the Germans warm?  And isn’t it France that’s building next generation nuclear, ITER?    Isn’t this a case of German research being built in France?   Or we want the electricty but if something goes wrong it will be your country, not ours threat will be radioactive.

Sorry, you are ill-informed here.

Germany is actually exporting electricty into France.
https://www.renewable-ei.org/en/activities/column/20180302.html

ITER is an international collaboration, with the reactor happening to be built in France. 35 nations are participating, including (believe it or not) the United States. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITER
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2018, 06:55:40 pm »
France and nuclear to the rescue.  Isn’t 80% of the electricty France produces comes from nucler?  And when Germany has no sun or wind it’s France’s nucler produced electricty that keep the German machinery running and the Germans warm?  And isn’t it France that’s building next generation nuclear, ITER?    Isn’t this a case of German research being built in France?   Or we want the electricty but if something goes wrong it will be your country, not ours threat will be radioactive.

Sorry, you are ill-informed here.

Germany is actually exporting electricty into France.
https://www.renewable-ei.org/en/activities/column/20180302.html

ITER is an international collaboration, with the reactor happening to be built in France. 35 nations are participating, including (believe it or not) the United States. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITER


Appears I a the victim of the “Merchants of Doubt” who are pedaling FAKE NEWS.  This article explains the false assumptions that were being made.  Thank you for correcting me.

https://energytransition.org/2015/06/is-germany-reliant-on-foreign-nuclear-power/
 
Help me out here.....  So if Germany is decommissioning nuclear and coal, what are they replacing it with?  With wind and solar being unreliable where are they going to get their electricty when there is no wind or sun?

Help me understand this too...  If Germany is relying so much on solar how is it they are overproducing electricty in the winter and underproducing in the summer?  Seems counter intuitive.

Thank you agin for correcting me.

 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2018, 07:14:52 pm »
So if Germany is decommissioning nuclear and coal, what are they replacing it with?  With wind and solar being unreliable where are they going to get their electricty when there is no wind or sun?

Power is still generated from a mix of sources, incuding nuclear and (probably too much) coal and gas. This site has a good set of diagrams: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-consumption-and-power-mix-charts

Quote
If Germany is relying so much on solar how is it they are overproducing electricty in the winter and underproducing in the summer?  Seems counter intuitive.

Hmm, I have not seen it broken down by season and source. But Germany has deployed significantly more wind than solar power generation, which probably favors autumn and potentially winter. Page 8 of this PDF has a breakdown of 2017 capacity including the split of renewable sources:
https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/content/dam/ise/en/documents/publications/studies/Stromerzeugung_2017_e.pdf
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2018, 07:22:42 pm »
Help me out here.....  So if Germany is decommissioning nuclear and coal, what are they replacing it with?  With wind and solar being unreliable where are they going to get their electricty when there is no wind or sun?
The Germans are still in denial. In the Netherlands some politicians are openly saying we need nuclear power. Germany will be in the same position soon when they realise solar and wind aren't going to cut it. New nuclear power plants will need to be built anyway to replace the old and outdated ones. Currently there are too many nuclear power plants way past their expiration date but their generating capacity can't missed.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2018, 07:26:28 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2018, 07:55:28 pm »
Help me out here.....  So if Germany is decommissioning nuclear and coal, what are they replacing it with?  With wind and solar being unreliable where are they going to get their electricty when there is no wind or sun?
The Germans are still in denial. In the Netherlands some politicians are openly saying we need nuclear power. Germany will be in the same position soon when they realise solar and wind aren't going to cut it. New nuclear power plants will need to be built anyway to replace the old and outdated ones. Currently there are too many nuclear power plants way past their expiration date but their generating capacity can't missed.


In the Untiled States the anti-miuclear generation is dying off.  People here are slowly realizing nuclear isn’t as evil as the poorly educatived evviormentealists made it out to be.  Coal has proven to be far worse and has killed thousands of times more people than nuclear has.  Crud thanks to the burning of coal there is so much mercury in the ocean we are told to limit the amount of fish we eat.  Wind/solar will never meet the world’s energy demands and we already know the burning of coal/fossil fuels have proven to be horrible.  Not saying that nuclear is perfect, but it’s certainly not as bad.

Let’s hop the German’s come to realize nuclear wiht the technology we have is really our only solution.

And s if energy isn’t our only problem, we now need to add water to the list?  Where are we going to get clean water?  It’s going to require electricty.     

 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2018, 08:13:52 pm »
Help me out here.....  So if Germany is decommissioning nuclear and coal, what are they replacing it with?  With wind and solar being unreliable where are they going to get their electricty when there is no wind or sun?
The Germans are still in denial. In the Netherlands some politicians are openly saying we need nuclear power. Germany will be in the same position soon when they realise solar and wind aren't going to cut it. New nuclear power plants will need to be built anyway to replace the old and outdated ones. Currently there are too many nuclear power plants way past their expiration date but their generating capacity can't missed.

It's not mere denial. I think the relationship between Germany and nuclear energy is a very complex one that's only marginally rooted in environmental considerations.
Understanding the issues at hand for the past decades is not very difficult though.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2018, 11:03:45 pm »
Help me out here.....  So if Germany is decommissioning nuclear and coal, what are they replacing it with?  With wind and solar being unreliable where are they going to get their electricty when there is no wind or sun?
The Germans are still in denial. In the Netherlands some politicians are openly saying we need nuclear power. Germany will be in the same position soon when they realise solar and wind aren't going to cut it. New nuclear power plants will need to be built anyway to replace the old and outdated ones. Currently there are too many nuclear power plants way past their expiration date but their generating capacity can't missed.

It's not mere denial. I think the relationship between Germany and nuclear energy is a very complex one that's only marginally rooted in environmental considerations.
Understanding the issues at hand for the past decades is not very difficult though.

From what I know about Germany is they are into nature and the environment.  I beleive that started with Ernst Heckel.  What I donb’t get is why they are anti-nuclear?  Of course I don’t understand why so many Germans smoke either when the tobacco in ciragettes is fertilized with radioactive polonium.  (But that’s another story). 
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2018, 01:35:02 am »
There is a short summary of the question there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Germany

It's incomplete IMO but gives you the general idea, with additional links to look into.
 

Offline dekra54

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2018, 04:05:16 am »
Did they mentioned a price of just 250 euro /m^2  Curios what will that include as it seems fairly low.
Drop ins solar PV cell price is so high that they are almost free now still that will not happen with glass and for roads that is way thinker than regular 3mm PV panel glass.
Currency you can buy a m^2 of traditional PV panels with under $100 and very little of that represents the PV cell cost maybe less than 20%.

De-ice by heating the pathway makes no sense as way to much energy will be needed and can make things even worse.

The mentioned price of 250€/m² is a price Point they are targeting in future. Currently it is way more expensive (as stated in the article).
For me as an PV-Installer/Technician the targeted price of 250€ seems reasonable if they can get it to at least mid volume production.
We as a company can get Panels for rooftops for around 20-25€ct per Watt or about 85€ for a 275W Panel. But this is just from a pricepoint perspective .... No matter if the whole concept is  :bullshit:  ;D
 

Offline analogo

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2018, 07:28:27 am »
Help me out here.....  So if Germany is decommissioning nuclear and coal, what are they replacing it with?  With wind and solar being unreliable where are they going to get their electricty when there is no wind or sun?

The truth is that Germany is, indeed, replacing nuclear and coal with solar and wind. In addition they are actively trying to reduce power consumption at all levels, at the domestic and the business level. And they are succeeding in achieving constant positive economic growth with zero or negative power growth.

Here is a year-by-year graph of power consumption and power sources: https://energy-charts.de/energy.htm?source=all-sources&period=annual&year=all (have a look at how nicely the nuclear red bar is shrinking while the yellow line replaces it).

With massive investments in production and research you can do it. Germany started doing research and deployment in the 80s! They have 40 years of experience in power solar deployment (see the long-time research project started in Aachen in the 80s), that makes a huge difference.

Nuclear, old and new, is just much more expensive than sun and wind, if you take into account the security costs and the decommissioning funds. This is why nowadays solar and wind power is sold at cheaper rates for most of the year. It's the money baby.
 

Offline f4eru

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2018, 08:34:14 am »
Quote
In the Untiled States the anti-miuclear generation is dying off. 
Nope. I'll help correct your statement :
"In the Untiled States the nuclear generation is dying off."
Nuke plants are finally slowly closing due to the too high cost.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2018, 09:47:33 am »
Nuclear, old and new, is just much more expensive than sun and wind, if you take into account the security costs and the decommissioning funds. This is why nowadays solar and wind power is sold at cheaper rates for most of the year. It's the money baby.
But at some point a buffer will need to be added to solar and wind when they don't produce (enough). Currently the buffers are the fossil fuel powered plants.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2018, 10:04:01 am »
Nuclear, old and new, is just much more expensive than sun and wind, if you take into account the security costs and the decommissioning funds. This is why nowadays solar and wind power is sold at cheaper rates for most of the year. It's the money baby.
But at some point a buffer will need to be added to solar and wind when they don't produce (enough). Currently the buffers are the fossil fuel powered plants.

Agree. I don't think we have quite figured that part out yet in Germany.

There is a widespread view that we are relying on coal and gas too much as a buffer/stop-gap at the moment. On the other hand we still do not have a solution for safe long-term storage of radioactive waste, or an affordable way to dismantle nuclear power plants when they reach the end of their useful life.

So what to do, if you are not Norway and hence lack a steady supply of hydro-power, or the opportunity to pump water up into artificial high-altitude reservoirs?  ???
 

Offline Bassman59

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2018, 07:00:57 pm »
The Chinese did the same thing not too long ago;.  YouTube video posted.  It took the Chinese a week to figur out how to drive the solar roadway.  It’s a demonstration of how the Chinese have a technological superiority over the rest of the wold when it cones to solar roadways.  The Germans must still be amazed at how the Chinese government could get the de-icing to work when Germans engineers couldn’t.  Guess they haven’t watched the video by this British guy. (4:04)  The Chinese secret is called a broom.

Brooms don't work on ice.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2018, 07:02:29 pm »
Brooms don't work on ice.
Have you never watched curling?
 


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