Author Topic: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...  (Read 4190 times)

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Offline SeanB

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #75 on: March 17, 2019, 05:37:58 pm »
Another strike against solar roads is that basically all year long you are driving on a surface that is pretty much an iced road, with variable grip on the surface. Any shading with rain makes it slippery, and different for each wheel as well. Then consider axle loading, here the legal maximum axle loading is 11 tons for each front steering axle, and 22 tons for any other axle on a HGV. Glass that will withstand 11 tons applied to the corner without chipping or breaking, especially when this point loading is applied at high speed, is both very expensive to produce, very thick ( you need a ground toughened glass with multiple internal laminated panels to have it be tough on the outside and thick enough to distribute the load) and you need to have the support structure be incredibly rigid to handle it. Might be 5 tons of steel and concrete for a single panel to handle this, basically making your road build equivalent to building the entire road structure as a ground laid bridge. Also going to require precision assembly, as any variation between panels will cause stress points and break tiles.

Compare this to a roof, existing support structure which already is rated for the extra mass, no need for any structural strength other than self support and wind/rail/snow/ice loading for the environment. Windows can easily be part of the system, as nobody has an entire roof comprised of glass window border to border, the power wiring is already there, the installation cost does not involve closing off existing streets to rip out hundreds of tons of existing roadbed to pour concrete, leave to cure for 28 days, then install a road bed back on them. Let again the efficiency of having panels that are aimed sunward to the most part, and running cooler due to being up where they can be cooled top and bottom by ambient air circulation.

Solar roadway is just a way to get profit for the companies laying them, all existing road builders who have a very vested interest in getting paid to replace an existing roadway long ahead of schedules lifetime, and then getting the never ending maintenance on the thing as well. Green credentials, and a massive profit as well, the investor return is impressive in having every person in the country pay them double the money they make in a year, every month from that lucrative contract, overrides all else from them.

Living in a country which is experiencing life with candles, because before we had electricity, and looking at the prospect of having to pay, per person, nearly $50k, because of poor decisions made in the last 9 years on corruption in the electricity industry, you are living in a dream world Nctnico. No ffed in tarrif here, but the local Wal mart has covered the entire shopping mall roof with solar panels, and the car park is fully shaded with solar panels to provide power, with around 32kW of inverters per corner they can put them. This they estimate is 30% of the power bill saved per store, and they are doing this to cut the expenses of the store. If it was sense to put the panels on the ground they would have done that during the store refresh, but instead they put them where they are the most cost effective and efficient instead. Instead they tarred the entire place after putting in the poles, and wash the panels to get that last bit of efficiency out of them.
 
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Offline george80

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #76 on: March 17, 2019, 09:34:28 pm »

Glass that will withstand 11 tons applied to the corner without chipping or breaking, especially when this point loading is applied at high speed, is both very expensive to produce, very thick ( you need a ground toughened glass with multiple internal laminated panels to have it be tough on the outside and thick enough to distribute the load) and you need to have the support structure be incredibly rigid to handle it. Might be 5 tons of steel and concrete for a single panel to handle this, basically making your road build equivalent to building the entire road structure as a ground laid bridge.

You make very good and logical points.
You also make me think of expansion and contraction. They would have to leave some joints for that and this would be a point where the impact on the panels is increased.  Often roads settle where you can see where the wheel tracks are and these pressure points would be added stress in the glass or covering material.

The more coating you put on top of the panels the less light transmission.

Things falling off Vehicles and accidents could also be VERY costly to repair.  Normaly there would be little to light damage maybe requiring some tar or hotmix to fill the imperfection and re smooth the road.  With a damaged panel you would have to remove and replace the whole section and re wire it as well. I can't Imagine taking out a panel once it was built in with others around it being an easy job nor avoiding damaging other panels.  Might have to replace 3 for every one damaged in the middle.

Quote
Compare this to a roof, existing support structure which already is rated for the extra mass, no need for any structural strength other than self support and wind/rail/snow/ice loading for the environment.

When I wanted to cover my prefab 6 car garage in panels I was concerned about the weight.  For the 54 panels I was looking around 1 ton of weight.  I rang the company that made the shed, told them what I wanted to do and my concerns and then felt like a fool.
Guy laughed and said  If you want to stack the panels more than 5 high we might have to do some numbers. He reminded me what I already knew and should have remembered that the structure of the roof is not so much to hold it up but to hold it down, IE, stop it blowing away in the wind.

Wind is the big one here and with one exception of a panel coming loose I think due to probably air currents ? Vorticies caused by by something against the roof, I have had no problem.   Easy fix, Secured the panel better, moved the suspect Object which should not have been there in the first place and all is good.

There is no reason or logic in making solar roads. When all the rooftops are full with PV and there is no other place to put them, then there are still better alternatives.  I think it was here someone recently put a link to a large building that put them on the side of the building because Multistory usually have small and crowded rooftops . They still get a worthwhile return on the side of the building and no doubt installation and maintence costs are a fraction of that incurred with a road.

I don't know how many places have Windows in their roofs but with the exception of skylights here which are not that popular, it's a very rare thing. In any case, as said, not like the whole roof is going to be glass.

I made my skylight solar.
2 panels on the roof go to power the LED lights in the darkish Kitchen.  They run them early and late thanks to having 500W of panels and under 50W of lights. I can switch them on at night but during the day they are my skylight and put more light into the area early and late than what a normal syklight would anyway with the sun at  extreme angles.

I didn't have to cut holes in my roof, didn't have to upset the insulation, didn't make a chimney for the heat to enter or exit and can keep the aesthetic and symmetrical lines of my ceiling and Lighting.
There was also the small matter of it costing about $100 Vs. $2K to have an approved skylight installed.


Quote
Solar roadway is just a way to get profit for the companies laying them, all existing road builders who have a very vested interest in getting paid to replace an existing roadway long ahead of schedules lifetime, and then getting the never ending maintenance on the thing as well. Green credentials, and a massive profit as well, the investor return is impressive in having every person in the country pay them double the money they make in a year, every month from that lucrative contract, overrides all else from them.

Exactly.

To anyone with a half a brain or not trying to deliberately be the most idiotic moron in the world, the flaws in solar panel roads are obvious and over whelming.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #77 on: March 17, 2019, 10:28:02 pm »
No, it means that the knee-jerk reaction to put solar panels on roofs is something people should think about twice.
You have to be taking the piss.  You cannot come back here time and time again talking the moronic shit you do and getting your arse handed to you over and over again if your whole agenda is not to shit stir.  No one is that fking stupid or lacking in self respect. 

No one not trying to be an idiot or a troll could associate the term " Knee jerk reaction" the the installation of Rooftop PV.
You are not thinking things through. Prices of houses are based on the area useful as a living space (and the number of rooms). In the NL that is over 2000 euro per square meter in popular areas (=the entire west part of the country). If you can turn a 15m^2 attic into a useful room by adding windows in the roof (or a dormer) you instantly earn 15*2000=30k euro. But having windows means you can't install solar panels (or only a few of them). It just goes to show that the first reaction of many who say 'put solar panels on the roof' may not be the most economic choice.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 10:36:32 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #78 on: March 17, 2019, 10:51:49 pm »
Living in a country which is experiencing life with candles, because before we had electricity, and looking at the prospect of having to pay, per person, nearly $50k, because of poor decisions made in the last 9 years on corruption in the electricity industry, you are living in a dream world Nctnico. No ffed in tarrif here, but the local Wal mart has covered the entire shopping mall roof with solar panels, and the car park is fully shaded with solar panels to provide power, with around 32kW of inverters per corner they can put them. This they estimate is 30% of the power bill saved per store,
I never said it doesn't makes sense to put solar on a roof (or over a car park). I'm just pointing out the other options (which may or may not be driven by local climate, local building styles and available space) and how these may drive the economics of a solar roadway. Don't shoot the messenger.

Just look at where the (serious) solar roadway companies are located: France, Germany and the Netherlands. All countries which don't have large amounts of unused flat open space.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 11:18:41 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline ealex

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #79 on: March 17, 2019, 11:16:16 pm »
Regarding road cost: the tar surface is a small percent of it, most of the money goes in preparing the road bed:
- it must be flexible enough to absorb vibration ( look at how a rail way flexes under a train )
- it must be hard enough so it does not "flow" away over time
- it must be able to drain water away
- it must remain stable even when saturated with water
- it must not form "drain channels" - where you have a preferred path that creates hidden cavities
- it must spread the load on the base soil, so it keeps "floating" on it in all conditions

The material used for the road surface is also a good compromise: it's flexible enough so it won't crack under big point loads, it's tough enough to remain where it is, it's not damaged by water, it's ~ cheap, it can be recycled if needed, it can stick to the base layers so it does not peel of, etc


I can't imagine how can you solve these requirements with some rigid glass slabs
- you can have the bed under them hard as well - and in that case you need to rip up the entire road and redesign it from scratch - as the vibration, deformation, etc will still have to be handled.
- or you can put something like sand, that's soft, but in that case, it will eventually move around and unbalance the glass plate, end you end up with plates that shift under the wheels / an uneven surface or plates that break because they're not fully supported. You can see this happening with pavement stones that are placed on a sand bed - they eventually become unstable, as the sand slowly shifts beneath (they paved the city center with them over here - when it's dry some of them move so much that you can trip on, and when it's rainy water gathers under them and jets out when you step - and that's for foot traffic only, nothing heavier than a bike touches them)

In case of an uneven surface - the edge of the first higher plate will have a lot of local forces from the wheel that has to climb on it - you can see this happening on a normal road pot-hole - the direction the hole expands once it forms.

It might be a solution for light traffic areas - bike lanes, etc, if you can keep them perfectly clean, as normal "sand" is hard enough to scratch glass, you can make them non-reflective ( even tarmac + hot air layer can form an annoying mirror, i don't want to imagine what an already reflective surface can do - like high altitude fresh snow - it will burn your eyes out ) and at the same time, make them in such a way that they'll be 0 cost for at least 20-30 years after the installation, make the surface as  adherent as a normal road, etc.


It's not impossible from an engineering point of view, but it will be very expensive and it will make little sense as long as there will be cheaper ways to obtain energy.


Regarding government funding ... they will go to anything that makes them look good, there are no engineers in the process, only "public image" and "election campaign debts" that need to be repaid somehow. It's not "their money" - they will burn it as long as it makes them look good at that moment, the tax payer will have to cover the bills.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #80 on: March 17, 2019, 11:29:43 pm »
It seems the French solar roadways are a somewhat flexible overlay which is stuck on existing road surface. They went through quite a few iterations. From page 15:
https://www.colas.com/sites/default/files/publications/cst-mag3-fev16-en-web.pdf
Again not saying this is the perfect solution but it gives some insight into the actual engineering process.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #81 on: March 18, 2019, 02:20:52 am »
It seems the French solar roadways are a somewhat flexible overlay which is stuck on existing road surface. They went through quite a few iterations. From page 15:
https://www.colas.com/sites/default/files/publications/cst-mag3-fev16-en-web.pdf
Again not saying this is the perfect solution but it gives some insight into the actual engineering process.

nctnico why do you keep posting marketing material and call it science?  nctnico do you even know how to research? 

No other way to put this then to say your posts are fucking unbelievable.  Let me demonstrate just how deceitful and dishonest you are with your posts.

You provide a link to a publication from February 2016 about solar roadway.  Then you completely ignore "EEVblog #850 - French Wattway Solar Roadways BUSTED!" which was posted on February 12, 2016.

Why the fuck when Dave show everyone the that Wattway is total bullshit do not include that in your post?

You've done the same think with biofuels, batteries hydrogen cars and now with solar roads.

What's your reasoning for not believing Dave and the math and science in his EEVblog?  He clearly shows why the solar roadway you are promoting are BUSTED.  Not only did he do this in one video he did it in many just to show people like you they are a stupid idea.

And not only that a solar roadway was installed close to where you live.  (I'm sure you know about it.)  And it was broken just after it was installed.

One has to ask, what's wrong with you?  Why don't you believe Dave or any of the other scientists who have also shown why it makes no sense to make solar roadways.

I invite you to watch Dave's video on the technology you are promoting and tell us where Dave got it wrong.

https://youtu.be/RjbKYNcmFUw










 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #82 on: March 18, 2019, 05:01:58 pm »
nctnico this video was made for folks like you who believe in the bull shit in news feeds and on the web.
I hope you watch it and learn from it.

Why Your Newsfeed SUCKS - Smarter Every Day 212

https://youtu.be/MUiYglgGbos
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 05:03:51 pm by DougSpindler »
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #83 on: March 21, 2019, 07:45:25 am »
More solar roadway bullshit


 

Offline george80

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #84 on: March 21, 2019, 11:10:51 am »

Those things wouldn't last a day on a suburban street nor an hour on a Highway.
As if there isn't enough inefficiency in the things in the first place, they have to go fill them with LED's to waste the measly power they do generate?

Above and beyond all else, the glare from the things would be a deal breaker. Way too dangerous and could you imagine what that would be like with headlights bouncing off it at night??

I think it's time for me to get in on some of this grant money these Gubbermints and soft of heart and head morons seem hell bent in throwing away.
How about the wind Generator rotary clothesline?  As the wind blows it round and round the generator built in make enough to supply a whole street of power..... For every 20 entire suburbs fitted out with them..... on the most windy day recorded for the year.

Couldn't be worse than this crock of ship
 

Online The Soulman

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #85 on: March 21, 2019, 11:26:46 am »

How about the wind Generator rotary clothesline?  As the wind blows it round and round the generator built in make enough to supply a whole street of power..... For every 20 entire suburbs fitted out with them..... on the most windy day recorded for the year.

Couldn't be worse than this crock of ship

Sounds like kick-starter material to me.  :-+  :-DD
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #86 on: March 21, 2019, 02:40:34 pm »

Those things wouldn't last a day on a suburban street nor an hour on a Highway.
As if there isn't enough inefficiency in the things in the first place, they have to go fill them with LED's to waste the measly power they do generate?

Above and beyond all else, the glare from the things would be a deal breaker. Way too dangerous and could you imagine what that would be like with headlights bouncing off it at night??

I think it's time for me to get in on some of this grant money these Gubbermints and soft of heart and head morons seem hell bent in throwing away.
How about the wind Generator rotary clothesline?  As the wind blows it round and round the generator built in make enough to supply a whole street of power..... For every 20 entire suburbs fitted out with them..... on the most windy day recorded for the year.

Couldn't be worse than this crock of ship

Your letting the science get in the way of a politicians way to waste money.  They already kickstarted it.  They need $50M just to figure out what kind of glass to use.  As I recall Dave said each solar panel will produce $7.00 of electricity per year.  And I think the projected cost for each solar panel is $100K.  It's a politicians dream.  Each solar roadway panel will pay for itself in 14,285 years.
 

Online NANDBlog

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #87 on: March 21, 2019, 07:19:29 pm »
No, it means that the knee-jerk reaction to put solar panels on roofs is something people should think about twice.
You have to be taking the piss.  You cannot come back here time and time again talking the moronic shit you do and getting your arse handed to you over and over again if your whole agenda is not to shit stir.  No one is that fking stupid or lacking in self respect. 

No one not trying to be an idiot or a troll could associate the term " Knee jerk reaction" the the installation of Rooftop PV.
You are not thinking things through. Prices of houses are based on the area useful as a living space (and the number of rooms). In the NL that is over 2000 euro per square meter in popular areas (=the entire west part of the country). If you can turn a 15m^2 attic into a useful room by adding windows in the roof (or a dormer) you instantly earn 15*2000=30k euro. But having windows means you can't install solar panels (or only a few of them). It just goes to show that the first reaction of many who say 'put solar panels on the roof' may not be the most economic choice.
Yeah, and if you covert the entire roof into a window, you just doubled the price of your house. You can sell this in small portions and never have to work again in the next 20 years.
Are we done with the fake economics?
 

Offline george80

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #88 on: March 21, 2019, 10:26:27 pm »

Yeah, and if you covert the entire roof into a window, you just doubled the price of your house. You can sell this in small portions and never have to work again in the next 20 years.
Are we done with the fake economics?

Hahahah!  Classic.
I laughed at the ' Not thinking things through" bit.  As if every home in the world was the same as what it is where nitwit lives.

My home is 350 Sqm floor space. At $2k sqm, that makes it worth $700K.  I wish! I must have got ripped off. I paid 1.5M for it just under 2 years ago. It's gone up about 10 % since then.  Of course it did come with a 90 Sqm shed and 4000 SqM of land.  ;D

here the suburb and the street is the determining factor for about 80% of a homes value given it is in average condition and not a dump. features and fittings of the individual property would go from there.

Putting windows in the roof to add living space???? I can't even stand up straight under the ridge and it gets lower from there.
Even though it is fully insulated, when the sun is out it's too damn hot to be up there anyway. Great place to have another room... not!

And why would anyone be concerned about a paltry $30K increase in home value... if the modification was legal which it would not be here?   You could spend $3K on some plants and landscaping and make more than that!
We spent almost $5K today on new appliances for the kitchen reno that's going to cost $50K. And then I want to do the bathrooms and the back verandah.  Better to convert that to extra living space at 49 sm. All I have to do with that is put up 3 walls and  a ceiling in it.... Or maybe turn the bit above the rafters  into living space for the vertically challenged.  :-DD

 My "knee Jerk" solar panels saved me over $3000 in power last year and I only had 4 kw worth on the house roof. Rest were on the shed.  Could throw another 25 Kw worth up on the house if I needed it but that would take up window space......   :palm:

Spose though if you think solar roadways are a good idea who knows what other ideas and things you are likley to fall for?
Also raises the irony of those that champion solar roads which are useless but are against putting panels on their own roofs where they would save them money.

In any case, I'd be putting the panels up while I was living there to save on power bills and just before I was ready to sell, if I could get more for the place to any worthwhile amount, I'd move the panels I needed to and put the windows in the roof when I was ready to move on.

Not thinking things through..... yeah, Right!   :palm: :palm: :palm:
 

Offline rayadientes

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #89 on: April 23, 2019, 07:39:58 pm »
Awesome the future is coming
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: Solar Roadways - Germany edition...
« Reply #90 on: April 24, 2019, 02:11:29 am »
Awesome the future is coming

Yes, including the end of the world.  And the end of the world party which is on the day after the end of the world.

« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 02:20:44 am by DougSpindler »
 


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