Solar Upgrade AGAIN

[EEVblog]

One more remark: when I looked at 4 string inverters, I noticed that some only have 2 MPTTs. I don't know how that works with 4 strings attached but it could be the strings are switched in series or something like that.

Thise one definitely has 4 MPPT and 4 inputs.
https://info-support.sungrowpower.com/application/pdf/2023/11/03/DS_20230824_SH8.0_10RS_Datasheet_V2_EN(AU).pdf

[nctnico]

That looks like a really nice unit 

[tszaboo]

Interesting choice. Do you have 3 phase power connection?
From what I can see on the market, for a solar system a battery connection is now more important than the actual inverter. I see way too many inverters that only work with one or two battery pack brands, and the batteries are coming with a heavy markup, making the system more expensive than competing solutions.
It would be interesting to see a larger growth of universal AC coupled battery inverters, because the big brands don't keep up with battery pricing or even technology. I mean next year we already might have Sodium home storage batteries that are cheaper than existing battery packs.

[EEVblog]

Interesting choice. Do you have 3 phase power connection?
From what I can see on the market, for a solar system a battery connection is now more important than the actual inverter. I see way too many inverters that only work with one or two battery pack brands, and the batteries are coming with a heavy markup, making the system more expensive than competing solutions.
It would be interesting to see a larger growth of universal AC coupled battery inverters, because the big brands don't keep up with battery pricing or even technology. I mean next year we already might have Sodium home storage batteries that are cheaper than existing battery packs.

Single phase, 65A grid fuse.
I like that the Sungrow batteries are stackable and IP55 outdoor rated, and they seem very common here and often on special.

[gf]

Is a 10kW inverter on a single phase allowed by regulation in Australia?
[ I ask, because here in Germany it is limited to 4.6kVA, and larger ones need to be 3-phase. ]

[EEVblog]

Is a 10kW inverter on a single phase allowed by regulation in Australia?
[ I ask, because here in Germany it is limited to 4.6kVA, and larger ones need to be 3-phase. ]

Yes, 10kW is the limit for single phase in NSW.

[nctnico]

Interesting choice. Do you have 3 phase power connection?
From what I can see on the market, for a solar system a battery connection is now more important than the actual inverter. I see way too many inverters that only work with one or two battery pack brands, and the batteries are coming with a heavy markup, making the system more expensive than competing solutions.
It would be interesting to see a larger growth of universal AC coupled battery inverters, because the big brands don't keep up with battery pricing or even technology. I mean next year we already might have Sodium home storage batteries that are cheaper than existing battery packs.

IMHO batteries are more interesting to early adopters or special cases at the moment. The home storage systems will need to mature quite a bit in order to become mainstream. Personally I'll look at storage when my (relatively cheap) PV inverter needs a replacement.

[tszaboo]

Interesting choice. Do you have 3 phase power connection?
From what I can see on the market, for a solar system a battery connection is now more important than the actual inverter. I see way too many inverters that only work with one or two battery pack brands, and the batteries are coming with a heavy markup, making the system more expensive than competing solutions.
It would be interesting to see a larger growth of universal AC coupled battery inverters, because the big brands don't keep up with battery pricing or even technology. I mean next year we already might have Sodium home storage batteries that are cheaper than existing battery packs.

IMHO batteries are more interesting to early adopters or special cases at the moment. The home storage systems will need to mature quite a bit in order to become mainstream. Personally I'll look at storage when my (relatively cheap) PV inverter needs a replacement.

Here in NL it makes no financial sense for most people at all yet. And since battery technology is evolving rapidly, we should wait with adaption to the last moment. On the other hand I can already see that a 5KWh battery pack from SOK is 1700 EUR, while a similarly sized  Solaredge (and other brand) battery pack is 3000 EUR, and Aliexpress is selling it for 1000 EUR.
So very soon we might end up with a situation, where a reputable Sodium 10KWh battery pack, covering all our needs will be ~1500 EUR, while a competing solution from our inverter manufacturer is 6000 EUR, which is a huge difference.
Even with the current prices of battery packs, with a contract which gives spot prices (like Frank energie), the battery pack could be profitable. Only, you would need to make some complicated system that works on day ahead prices and weather predictions.

[ahbushnell]

How does electrical billing work there?  We got net metering just in the nick of time.  It's gone away in California.  We have 27 kW-hr of batteries because I'm concerned about grid stability here.  Without EV's we can make all of our power.  We have two EV's now so that requires us to pull off the grid.   

[tszaboo]

How does electrical billing work there?  We got net metering just in the nick of time.  It's gone away in California.  We have 27 kW-hr of batteries because I'm concerned about grid stability here.  Without EV's we can make all of our power.  We have two EV's now so that requires us to pull off the grid.

Gee Whiz, California had 39 outages totalling 414 hours in 2022. What are you doing there?
The average power outage is 0.1/month here, averaging 20 minutes per customer per year.
If I didn't have power for 10 days in a year, I wouldn't pay power bills and we would probably have governments resigning out of shame.

[ahbushnell]

How does electrical billing work there?  We got net metering just in the nick of time.  It's gone away in California.  We have 27 kW-hr of batteries because I'm concerned about grid stability here.  Without EV's we can make all of our power.  We have two EV's now so that requires us to pull off the grid.

Gee Whiz, California had 39 outages totalling 414 hours in 2022. What are you doing there?
The average power outage is 0.1/month here, averaging 20 minutes per customer per year.
If I didn't have power for 10 days in a year, I wouldn't pay power bills and we would probably have governments resigning out of shame.

We have fires or we have fire conditions. 

[EEVblog]

How does electrical billing work there?  We got net metering just in the nick of time.  It's gone away in California.  We have 27 kW-hr of batteries because I'm concerned about grid stability here.  Without EV's we can make all of our power.  We have two EV's now so that requires us to pull off the grid.

The provider is forcing me to get a smart meter, which presumably puts me on a time based pricing system. Currently it's fixed.
Grid stability is simply not an issue in Sydney.

[.RC.]

Might be better of waiting until that solar cell plant in newcastle starts producing locally built solar panels at 1/10th the price they can make them in China.   

[Kleinstein]

I doubt the panels from Australia get much cheaper than those from China. They save a little on shipping, but pay more for labor.

It looks like not all panels are oriented the same way. This means that the peak (except for short special cloud cases) power will be less than the nominal power of the panels. One may thus get away with a lower inverter power, possibly less than the normal rule of thumb. One would still have to look how the inverter can mix the different strings.
The EV may already take up some of the peaks and shift the power use. So battery storage gets less attractive.

The smart meters not necessary mean a different pricing system. They just want to be prepared to allow different model and may not install old style meters anyway. With PV the metering is anyway a bit more complicated, counting power in both directions.  It would indeed make sense to change to a time dependent system, expecially for those with PV.

[EEVblog]

Interesting choice. Do you have 3 phase power connection?
From what I can see on the market, for a solar system a battery connection is now more important than the actual inverter. I see way too many inverters that only work with one or two battery pack brands, and the batteries are coming with a heavy markup, making the system more expensive than competing solutions.
It would be interesting to see a larger growth of universal AC coupled battery inverters, because the big brands don't keep up with battery pricing or even technology. I mean next year we already might have Sodium home storage batteries that are cheaper than existing battery packs.

IMHO batteries are more interesting to early adopters or special cases at the moment. The home storage systems will need to mature quite a bit in order to become mainstream. Personally I'll look at storage when my (relatively cheap) PV inverter needs a replacement.

Yes, probably not financially viable. Around $10k-ish for a 10kWh battery.
Assuming you store-use say 8kWh per day, that's $2.70/day, or 3703 days payback, or 10 years. About the life of the battery.

[EEVblog]

Might be better of waiting until that solar cell plant in newcastle starts producing locally built solar panels at 1/10th the price they can make them in China.   

LOL, won't happen.
AU$190ea delivered for a Trina 415W panel which is what I think I'll get. Payback for just the panels itself is a year or less. Less if I can sell the old 250W panels and at least get something for those.

[tszaboo]

Interesting choice. Do you have 3 phase power connection?
From what I can see on the market, for a solar system a battery connection is now more important than the actual inverter. I see way too many inverters that only work with one or two battery pack brands, and the batteries are coming with a heavy markup, making the system more expensive than competing solutions.
It would be interesting to see a larger growth of universal AC coupled battery inverters, because the big brands don't keep up with battery pricing or even technology. I mean next year we already might have Sodium home storage batteries that are cheaper than existing battery packs.

IMHO batteries are more interesting to early adopters or special cases at the moment. The home storage systems will need to mature quite a bit in order to become mainstream. Personally I'll look at storage when my (relatively cheap) PV inverter needs a replacement.

Yes, probably not financially viable. Around $10k-ish for a 10kWh battery.
Assuming you store-use say 8kWh per day, that's $2.70/day, or 3703 days payback, or 10 years. About the life of the battery.

Not with those prices.
https://www.au.sokbattery.com/product-page/pre-order-sok-48v100ah-lifepo4-battery-pack-ul-certified

[.RC.]

I doubt the panels from Australia get much cheaper than those from China. They save a little on shipping, but pay more for labor.

They won't,   It is a bit of a local joke involving politicians, think solar roadways style political decisions to get votes and squillion dollars given to grifters, it is only taxpayers money.

[EEVblog]

I'll be going with a Deye 5kW inverter to replace my Sunnyboy (with 12 x new 415W Trina panels). WAY more options for batteries of different types if I want to experiment with that.

Only questions remaining is, do I get two of them for a 10kW system, or save the >$2k (Deye inverter + two extra wiring to other side of house) and just reuse my existing 5kW Enphase system that is already in place and ready to hook back up?
I'm now erring toward saving the cash, which can actually buy me a smallish battery.

[EEVblog]

Not with those prices.
https://www.au.sokbattery.com/product-page/pre-order-sok-48v100ah-lifepo4-battery-pack-ul-certified

Yep, exactly, this is why I'm going with a Deye, you can get WAY cheaper batteries like this. I can get one of these effectively for "free" if a re-use my Enphase system.

[.RC.]

The provider is forcing me to get a smart meter, which presumably puts me on a time based pricing system.

Not being too familiar with this time based pricing system until reading an article this morning.  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-04-09/energy-companies-under-fire-over-time-of-use-rates/103655324

Would it be easy and cost effective to get a battery, charge it from mains when prices are cheap, then use it when prices are expensive in the evening?

[EEVblog]

5kW Deye hybrid inverter ordered (cheap at $1595) along wiht 12 new Trina 415W panels.
They will be in a two string 6 x 2 arrangement one either side of the roof to get both morning and afternoon sun.
Same company that sold me the inverter can also do a compaible battery for $2425 for a stackable 5kWh battery pack + $1395 for base control unit.

[Someone]

The provider is forcing me to get a smart meter, which presumably puts me on a time based pricing system.

Not being too familiar with this time based pricing system until reading an article this morning.  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-04-09/energy-companies-under-fire-over-time-of-use-rates/103655324

Would it be easy and cost effective to get a battery, charge it from mains when prices are cheap, then use it when prices are expensive in the evening?

Depends on the specific tariff, and the specific "cost" of your battery.

I don't know why people are all up in arms about being "forced" onto time of use tariffs, looking around retailers they're all offering fixed rate plans.

[AnthonyDsouza]

you could either move and upgrade the old 3kW system to the front roof, invest in a new Enphase system for consolidation, or simply retain the existing system. Moving the old system may offer cost savings but could lead to separate monitoring systems, while the Enphase option provides integration benefits despite being pricier upfront. Alternatively, keeping the old system might suffice if it's still functional and cost-effective. Assessing your priorities in terms of cost, integration, and performance can help you make the most suitable choice.

[EEVblog]

The plan I'm going with.
Installer came out this morning and had never heard of Deye inverters.