Author Topic: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?  (Read 170433 times)

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Online coppice

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1525 on: July 23, 2018, 09:55:00 pm »
But AFAIK there is no viable alternative to invest in and have a product within two years, or is there?
All the interesting new Research is in the laboratory phase it can take years even a decade before mass production, or what am I missing?
Most promising what I heard is the solid state battery but still very expensive and not mass producable.
Not long ago there was a burst of press reports about Toyota being very close to mass production with solid state batteries. Toyota quickly corrected this, and said 2030 looks like a reasonable date. It took years to polish lithium batteries to be as safe and consistent as they are today (apart from the odd screw up, like the Samsung Note 7). Solid state batteries haven't even started down that polishing path yet.
 
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Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1526 on: July 23, 2018, 10:11:47 pm »
Hope all of you realize Elon the loan of over a billion dollars Elon got for free for years.  (Wish I could do the same.)  Remember he required everyone who wanted to order an M3 give him a cash deposit. - That was Brilliant!  And now he's asking for a cash back from suppliers.

Reports are saying 24% of the Model 3s orders  have been canceled by customers.

End of Tesla motors?  Similar thing happend with Nikola Tesla towards the end of his life...  Nikola was big on talk and was fialing to deliver.

 

Online Marco

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1527 on: July 23, 2018, 10:16:40 pm »
But AFAIK there is no viable alternative to invest in and have a product within two years, or is there?
I like electrically+mechanically rechargeable zinc air batteries. They have a couple problems such as low round trip efficiency due to large voltage drop of the air cathode (they're working on it), dendrites with electrical charging (a solved problem, simply use mechanical wipers), etc. I have hope that with sufficient investment those could be solved.

With mechanical recharging it could give a drop in replacement for fossil fuels (including for the many who can't effectively recharge EVs).
 

Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1528 on: July 23, 2018, 11:07:04 pm »
But AFAIK there is no viable alternative to invest in and have a product within two years, or is there?
All the interesting new Research is in the laboratory phase it can take years even a decade before mass production, or what am I missing?
Most promising what I heard is the solid state battery but still very expensive and not mass producable.
Not long ago there was a burst of press reports about Toyota being very close to mass production with solid state batteries. Toyota quickly corrected this, and said 2030 looks like a reasonable date. It took years to polish lithium batteries to be as safe and consistent as they are today (apart from the odd screw up, like the Samsung Note 7). Solid state batteries haven't even started down that polishing path yet.
The inventor is less pessimistic but he doesn't have that long:
https://about.bnef.com/blog/goodenough-making-progress-solid-state-batteries-qa/

There is also an interesting remark from him in this interview:
Elon Musk got to get beyond the liquid electrolyte. He can’t do it with a lithium-ion battery. He can make hybrid cars at high cost but, he can’t get to what will compete with the internal combustion engine.

The 'hybrid cars' part is obviously wrong (should read 'electric cars') but other than that it is also what the other car manufacturers are saying.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Online coppice

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1529 on: July 23, 2018, 11:24:40 pm »
Quote
Quote
Not long ago there was a burst of press reports about Toyota being very close to mass production with solid state batteries. Toyota quickly corrected this, and said 2030 looks like a reasonable date. It took years to polish lithium batteries to be as safe and consistent as they are today (apart from the odd screw up, like the Samsung Note 7). Solid state batteries haven't even started down that polishing path yet.
The inventor is less pessimistic but he doesn't have that long:
https://about.bnef.com/blog/goodenough-making-progress-solid-state-batteries-qa/
I don't see any conflict between what he says and what Toyota say. He suggests someone could have a good product on the market in 3 to 5 years. Getting modest volumes of a not-especially cheap product out the door, serving markets that value the qualities of a solid state battery fulfill his claim, and get a market kickstarted. That's far from Toyota's need for high volume production plants up and running, and the product being highly cost optimised. It takes several years to find a sight, get planning approval, and actually get a large new production facility up and running, and a developer isn't going to start that process until the product is looking pretty solid.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 12:59:00 am by coppice »
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1530 on: July 24, 2018, 12:46:42 am »
What ever happened cars running on fuel cells or cars powered by hydrogen?  They were all the rage 10 years ago.  A small part of Apple's new campus was suppose to be powered by fuel cells.  Anyone know what happened?

Seems to me fuel cells would be perfect for hybrid and plug-in hybrid cars.  So why aren't we seeing them?


I'm thinking these new batteries that are trying to be developed are like fuel cells.  Lots of hype, but the pesky laws of physics just keep getting in the way. 

 
 

Online Marco

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1531 on: July 24, 2018, 02:10:21 am »
Every chemical storage medium used with fuel cells has large round trip losses if you start from electricity, hydrogen is also awkward to store. To get something easy to store you're looking at ammonia or propane. Ammonia is the simplest to generate, but the more tanker trucks you put on the road, the more accidents you will have and large ammonia spills are deadly.

PS. data centres are starting to use natural gas based fuel cells though, simply because the price and reliability is right ... not renewable, but can be economical.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 02:17:33 am by Marco »
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1532 on: July 24, 2018, 02:57:47 am »
Anyone know what they are doing in Germany with a combined heat, hot water and power generator?

https://youtu.be/wtDbfV5dsNs?t=6m14s


Are these in common use and they "Americans' say in the video?  Or is this a high end more one of a kind installation?



 

Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1533 on: July 24, 2018, 08:23:19 am »
Anyone know what they are doing in Germany with a combined heat, hot water and power generator?

https://youtu.be/wtDbfV5dsNs?t=6m14s
It can be economical but you have to do this on a larger scale. Over here these systems can be found in large buildings and some cities have a hot water-grid for heating and hot water. The source of the hot water is a power plant.

There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline a59d1

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1534 on: August 01, 2018, 03:09:08 am »
At this point, this thread is just a dumpster into which DougSpindler throws his baseless claims and ridiculously ignorant beliefs after doing a grand total of zero research on the relevant subjects. I am formally abandoning it. Sorry, Doug!
 
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Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1535 on: August 01, 2018, 04:13:06 am »
At this point, this thread is just a dumpster into which DougSpindler throws his baseless claims and ridiculously ignorant beliefs after doing a grand total of zero research on the relevant subjects. I am formally abandoning it. Sorry, Doug!

Don't be sorry support your claim with facts.  What are my ignorant beliefs?
Have I not provided links to reputable sources.  I believe I have made it clear when I am using my own empirical evidence or if I am not sure of something.

What evidence can you present to support your claim I have done a grand total of zero research on the relevant subjects?
  I will disagree until you provide creidtble evidnece to the contrary.

Looking forward to your post.

 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1536 on: August 01, 2018, 07:16:52 am »
creidtble evidnece
Say what ?  :)

This topic is the same on the other forum, some EV owners are very enthousiastic about their car even when they have to charge every 150 miles or have to walk, had to pay double the price of an ICE that has twice the room and four times the range and I can go on.
Hybrids are a different story.
But pure EV owners: fine for them but they are a minority of carowners trying to convince others to also buy one in a manner that resembles preachers trying to gain souls but forgetting that EVs are ludicrous expensive have very low range, can't pull a caravan or trailer and in Europe at least most countries have a terrible infrastructure where again you have to own local accounts to be able to use the charging poles.
It will change some time yes, but unless there are major breakthroughs in battery tech and this tech is product ready (mostly a 10 year period) for most people an EV is not a viable option for the coming 5 years even a decade. 

 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1537 on: August 01, 2018, 04:55:38 pm »
What you are saying today about battery technology toady is exactly what was being said 100 years ago.  In 100 years of battery powered vehicles not much has changed.  Maybe it's time to look at steam power and ECE.  Just over 100 years ago the leading and proven technology was stem power for well over 100 years.  Maybe it's time to bring steam power back.  How about a solar steam powered ECE using steam?

Seriously at this time our only chicices are human, fossil fuel or nucelar power for vehicles.  Yes EVs are nice, but if in 100 years we haven't made major improvements on the batterey technoilgy don't expect somehting soon.

What's intereting is the range of EV cars today is not that much different than those of 100 years ago is not that much different.  (Some exceptioons.)


 

Offline boffin

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1538 on: August 01, 2018, 05:10:36 pm »
creidtble evidnece
Say what ?  :)

This topic is the same on the other forum, some EV owners are very enthousiastic about their car even when they have to charge every 150 miles or have to walk, had to pay double the price of an ICE that has twice the room and four times the range and I can go on.
Hybrids are a different story.
But pure EV owners: fine for them but they are a minority of carowners trying to convince others to also buy one in a manner that resembles preachers trying to gain souls but forgetting that EVs are ludicrous expensive have very low range, can't pull a caravan or trailer and in Europe at least most countries have a terrible infrastructure where again you have to own local accounts to be able to use the charging poles.
It will change some time yes, but unless there are major breakthroughs in battery tech and this tech is product ready (mostly a 10 year period) for most people an EV is not a viable option for the coming 5 years even a decade.

Wow, do you work for Royal Dutch Shell ?  Despite my math showing you the numbers to be very effective, you keep up these wild claims that EV is not a viable option.

Let's look at some of your claims
  • Comparing a VW Golf vs VW eGolf isn't a valid comparison - you should compare an eGolf with the cheapest car on the market (this was my favourite)
  • EV cars are double the price of an ICE.  Perhaps when you're comparing a Tesla with a Yugo, but comparing like-sized/quality/trim levels, it simply isn't true. There's a small premium, paid off in 40-60,000km - again we demonstrated the math on both a VW and a Ford
  • EV cars are somehow space compromised. - My eGolf is the same size inside as any other VW Golf, which I believe is in the top selling cars of all time.

It goes on and on.  Between you and DougSpindler, you simply refuse to acknowledge the direction the world is going, and appear to have your own agenda.

On behalf of the people who want to discuss electric cars, I'm going to suggest that you and Doug go and start your own "Why Electric Cars Suck" thread, and leave this thread for serious, fact-based, discussion for the owners, and potential owners of electric cars.

 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1539 on: August 01, 2018, 06:02:21 pm »
creidtble evidnece
Say what ?  :)

This topic is the same on the other forum, some EV owners are very enthousiastic about their car even when they have to charge every 150 miles or have to walk, had to pay double the price of an ICE that has twice the room and four times the range and I can go on.
Hybrids are a different story.
But pure EV owners: fine for them but they are a minority of carowners trying to convince others to also buy one in a manner that resembles preachers trying to gain souls but forgetting that EVs are ludicrous expensive have very low range, can't pull a caravan or trailer and in Europe at least most countries have a terrible infrastructure where again you have to own local accounts to be able to use the charging poles.
It will change some time yes, but unless there are major breakthroughs in battery tech and this tech is product ready (mostly a 10 year period) for most people an EV is not a viable option for the coming 5 years even a decade.

Wow, do you work for Royal Dutch Shell ?  Despite my math showing you the numbers to be very effective, you keep up these wild claims that EV is not a viable option.

Let's look at some of your claims
  • Comparing a VW Golf vs VW eGolf isn't a valid comparison - you should compare an eGolf with the cheapest car on the market (this was my favourite)
  • EV cars are double the price of an ICE.  Perhaps when you're comparing a Tesla with a Yugo, but comparing like-sized/quality/trim levels, it simply isn't true. There's a small premium, paid off in 40-60,000km - again we demonstrated the math on both a VW and a Ford
  • EV cars are somehow space compromised. - My eGolf is the same size inside as any other VW Golf, which I believe is in the top selling cars of all time.

It goes on and on.  Between you and DougSpindler, you simply refuse to acknowledge the direction the world is going, and appear to have your own agenda.

On behalf of the people who want to discuss electric cars, I'm going to suggest that you and Doug go and start your own "Why Electric Cars Suck" thread, and leave this thread for serious, fact-based, discussion for the owners, and potential owners of electric cars.

Dude stop making things up.  Where have I ever said electric cars suck.  Nornmally I would say you idiot I own one.  And if you read my posts you will see that I plan on buying another one.  But I won't.  Instead I will say if you read my posts you will see I own and electric car, and plan on purchaing another one.  If would continuing readinig my posts you will see I have said over and over EV cars are great.

But then they are not for everyone and horrible for many applications.

If you are going to bash people at least get your facts stright.

Let me say it again.  EVs are wondering for a few applications.  For other applicatons they suck.

Dude do you even own an EV?  Do you have a life?  Do you have a wife and kids?  Go on vacations with your car?  Or are you a hermit.  And just drive to work and home every day and not enjoy life?

This is a fourm where people are to exchage ideas and learn from one another.   Stop bashing people and discuss what they have to say.  You might learn somehting.








 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1540 on: August 01, 2018, 08:58:09 pm »
Wow, do you work for Royal Dutch Shell ?  Despite my math showing you the numbers to be very effective, you keep up these wild claims that EV is not a viable option.

Let's look at some of your claims
  • Comparing a VW Golf vs VW eGolf isn't a valid comparison - you should compare an eGolf with the cheapest car on the market (this was my favourite)
  • EV cars are double the price of an ICE.  Perhaps when you're comparing a Tesla with a Yugo, but comparing like-sized/quality/trim levels, it simply isn't true. There's a small premium, paid off in 40-60,000km - again we demonstrated the math on both a VW and a Ford
  • EV cars are somehow space compromised. - My eGolf is the same size inside as any other VW Golf, which I believe is in the top selling cars of all time.

It goes on and on.  Between you and DougSpindler, you simply refuse to acknowledge the direction the world is going, and appear to have your own agenda.

On behalf of the people who want to discuss electric cars, I'm going to suggest that you and Doug go and start your own "Why Electric Cars Suck" thread, and leave this thread for serious, fact-based, discussion for the owners, and potential owners of electric cars.
I think you mess me up with someone else but the points for our country seem right.
A Tesla S costs over €100k three times a very decent ice stationwagon like a VW Golf.
I am talking about EVs not hybrids something you seem to mess up all the times.
Tesla never made a $ profit, today they anounced a $5 billion investment in a China factory but they don't have the money so they want to raise capital in China.
Other car manufacturers like VW newest Golf8 coming out next year will have a small perhaps solid state battery to support the start stop system only, thats it no electric plan for this generation that lasts 6-8 years but they do shut down two of the four cylinders while driving, and I can go on.
Perhaps your government in Canada gives you half the money an EV costs to make it at least affordable but here it is only for business owners they can deduct the tax.
In Norway it seems to become a success but ask why, because the government throws huge amounts of money at it and due to their natural water reservoirs in the mountains they have almost free electricity. Good for them and I wish it was viable in other countries but I don't see it.
Here in Holland you goto the city park your car for two hours while charging and you get 20-30% load resulting in a 35 mile radius, two hours! That is if it was an ice the fuelpump would do one litre of fuel per hour. So wake up from your future utopia and get real talk to the middle class families that are the majority of car owners that want to go 1000km drive to go to holiday and drive 75km each day for work and none of them owns an EV or is going to buy an EV that is your reality.
Perhaps in 5-10 years it will be different but lots has to change.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1541 on: August 01, 2018, 10:04:34 pm »
Wow, do you work for Royal Dutch Shell ?  Despite my math showing you the numbers to be very effective, you keep up these wild claims that EV is not a viable option.

Let's look at some of your claims
  • Comparing a VW Golf vs VW eGolf isn't a valid comparison - you should compare an eGolf with the cheapest car on the market (this was my favourite)
  • EV cars are double the price of an ICE.  Perhaps when you're comparing a Tesla with a Yugo, but comparing like-sized/quality/trim levels, it simply isn't true. There's a small premium, paid off in 40-60,000km - again we demonstrated the math on both a VW and a Ford
  • EV cars are somehow space compromised. - My eGolf is the same size inside as any other VW Golf, which I believe is in the top selling cars of all time.

It goes on and on.  Between you and DougSpindler, you simply refuse to acknowledge the direction the world is going, and appear to have your own agenda.

On behalf of the people who want to discuss electric cars, I'm going to suggest that you and Doug go and start your own "Why Electric Cars Suck" thread, and leave this thread for serious, fact-based, discussion for the owners, and potential owners of electric cars.
I think you mess me up with someone else but the points for our country seem right.
A Tesla S costs over €100k three times a very decent ice stationwagon like a VW Golf.
I am talking about EVs not hybrids something you seem to mess up all the times.
Tesla never made a $ profit, today they anounced a $5 billion investment in a China factory but they don't have the money so they want to raise capital in China.
Other car manufacturers like VW newest Golf8 coming out next year will have a small perhaps solid state battery to support the start stop system only, thats it no electric plan for this generation that lasts 6-8 years but they do shut down two of the four cylinders while driving, and I can go on.
Perhaps your government in Canada gives you half the money an EV costs to make it at least affordable but here it is only for business owners they can deduct the tax.
In Norway it seems to become a success but ask why, because the government throws huge amounts of money at it and due to their natural water reservoirs in the mountains they have almost free electricity. Good for them and I wish it was viable in other countries but I don't see it.
Here in Holland you goto the city park your car for two hours while charging and you get 20-30% load resulting in a 35 mile radius, two hours! That is if it was an ice the fuelpump would do one litre of fuel per hour. So wake up from your future utopia and get real talk to the middle class families that are the majority of car owners that want to go 1000km drive to go to holiday and drive 75km each day for work and none of them owns an EV or is going to buy an EV that is your reality.
Perhaps in 5-10 years it will be different but lots has to change.

Well stated. 
 

Online NiHaoMike

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1542 on: August 01, 2018, 11:01:24 pm »
The sign is clear: plug in hybrids would be the stopgap solution with most of the advantages of an EV but without the limited range problem that seems to be a showstopper for some.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1543 on: August 02, 2018, 05:25:16 am »
The sign is clear: plug in hybrids would be the stopgap solution with most of the advantages of an EV but without the limited range problem that seems to be a showstopper for some.
It seems Hydrogen is not out of the race yet. Mercedes is about to release a new model:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/mercedes-benz-glc-f-cell-2018-first-ride
And in the Netherlands they are going to add 11 more hydrogen fuel stations in the next year.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1544 on: August 02, 2018, 06:58:26 am »
The sign is clear: plug in hybrids would be the stopgap solution with most of the advantages of an EV but without the limited range problem that seems to be a showstopper for some.
Not some , most people I talked to even EV owners complain about it.
The usuable range is on average 250km with most models that averages a gastank of 15 litres.
After which with a supercharger it will take you 20 minutes to get 80% back.

For city trips and work (if you live within range) that is a good solution IF you can charge at home. In cities this is still an issue unless you want to spent 20 minutes before or after work recharging each day.
For all the other trafic it is a big hassle.
Experiences I heard were a family with 1 kid going to Italy in a Tesla S, having to drive 75km/hour (where the other cars are doing 140) to save batterylife, that is not only dangerous for upcoming trafic just as with trucks (where you expect it) it also ruined their holiday. Next time they are renting an ICE, so what safes that ?
Most people having to cross borders in Europe don't want to use an EV since the chargers are not universal and the paying system isn't either.

These are things that have to be ironed out, a range of 400-500km would make it practical, a lot of chargers with universal plugs and charging systems and payment systems are also a big hurdle. I think this will take longer than a few years but lets see. At this moment the Ford F150 gass gobbler is the most sold car globally, could not believe it but it is true. There is a big gap there.
 

Online Marco

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1545 on: August 02, 2018, 09:39:05 am »
It seems Hydrogen is not out of the race yet. Mercedes is about to release a new model:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/mercedes-benz-glc-f-cell-2018-first-ride
And in the Netherlands they are going to add 11 more hydrogen fuel stations in the next year.
Electricity to hydrogen is wildly inefficient.

For the same efficiency you could just use zinc air batteries with existing technology, but the zinc air batteries can be both electrically and mechanically recharged.
 

Online coppice

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1546 on: August 02, 2018, 12:15:34 pm »
It seems Hydrogen is not out of the race yet. Mercedes is about to release a new model:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/mercedes-benz-glc-f-cell-2018-first-ride
And in the Netherlands they are going to add 11 more hydrogen fuel stations in the next year.
Electricity to hydrogen is wildly inefficient.

For the same efficiency you could just use zinc air batteries with existing technology, but the zinc air batteries can be both electrically and mechanically recharged.
Zinc air is old technology, but it still has only a small market niche. I wonder why? Could it possibly have some issues beneath the attractive looking headline?
 

Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1547 on: August 02, 2018, 12:16:33 pm »
It seems Hydrogen is not out of the race yet. Mercedes is about to release a new model:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/mercedes-benz-glc-f-cell-2018-first-ride
And in the Netherlands they are going to add 11 more hydrogen fuel stations in the next year.
Electricity to hydrogen is wildly inefficient.
The Wikipedia article claims that efficiencies around 90% can be achieved. Even at 70 or 80 percent it isn't inefficient and probably more economically viable compared to storing electricity in batteries. For starters a Hydrogen tank doesn't wear so much as a battery.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online coppice

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1548 on: August 02, 2018, 12:25:40 pm »
It seems Hydrogen is not out of the race yet. Mercedes is about to release a new model:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/mercedes-benz-glc-f-cell-2018-first-ride
And in the Netherlands they are going to add 11 more hydrogen fuel stations in the next year.
Electricity to hydrogen is wildly inefficient.
The Wikipedia article claims that efficiencies around 90% can be achieved. Even at 70 or 80 percent it isn't inefficient and probably more economically viable compared to storing electricity in batteries. For starters a Hydrogen tank doesn't wear so much as a battery.
Most articles on hydrogen from electricity talk of 70% to 80% efficiency. Which Wikipedia page quotes 90%, and for what technology?

70% to 80% for half the cycle, and a similar efficiency for the other half of the cycle, seems worse than current battery technology. Storage isn't that great, either. Hydrogen has a nasty habit of leaking away, unless some very effective sealing is used. Something like ethanol with similar poor efficiencies might be attractive, as its so easy to store and transfer it quickly.

I am unclear why you think a hydrogen tank will wear less than a battery. The tank itself might last, but the seals and venting system require regular maintenance. Safe venting can be a big issue with hydrogen, and not venting doesn't appear to be an option for consumer storage. You will lose half your hydrogen to venting every week, so there is a lot of it.

Most hydrogen cars released to date seem not to have been serious attempts to create a market. Look at where they have been shipped to, and you see some kind of compliance requirements driving their existence.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2018, 01:17:27 pm by coppice »
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1549 on: August 02, 2018, 01:09:59 pm »
The Wikipedia article claims that efficiencies around 90% can be achieved. Even at 70 or 80 percent it isn't inefficient and probably more economically viable compared to storing electricity in batteries. For starters a Hydrogen tank doesn't wear so much as a battery.
I hope this will never be done in households, there are two products that get generated from H2O 1/2-O2 and H2 the combination of both is extremely explosive, remember the Graf Zeppelin ?
 


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