Author Topic: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?  (Read 167622 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline mtdoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3582
  • Country: us
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1750 on: September 11, 2018, 05:44:52 pm »
The car he was comparing it with only gets 21 MPG means he was driving a gas guzzler. 

Any car with equivalent performance to his Tesla would be lucky to get 21 MPG

Quote
Now electricity prices are to continue to rise in California whereas gas prices have pretty much remained the same for many years.

Here's the actual data:

California historical electricity prices:  Source



California historical gasoline prices: Source

 

Offline DougSpindler

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1157
  • Country: us
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1751 on: September 11, 2018, 05:57:46 pm »
The car he was comparing it with only gets 21 MPG means he was driving a gas guzzler. 

Any car with equivalent performance to his Tesla would be lucky to get 21 MPG

Quote
Now electricity prices are to continue to rise in California whereas gas prices have pretty much remained the same for many years.

Here's the actual data:

California historical electricity prices:  Source



California historical gasoline prices: Source



Bot sure where you are getting your California electricity prices, they are way off.  I wish we had rates as low as you claim.  Those rates need to be increased by 50% or more to be accurate for California.
 

Offline mtdoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3582
  • Country: us
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1752 on: September 11, 2018, 06:19:27 pm »
Bot sure where you are getting your California electricity prices, they are way off. 

 ::) I clearly linked my source in the post.

Digging further - that link gets it's data from the EIA which is THE source for reliable statistics on all things energy related.

This EIA web page has links to all types of detailed state data. There you will find this Excel file which will give you all the gory details of historical electricity prices by state.

You may pay higher prices but what you pay may not be representative of other parts of California.  I know for a fact that electricity prices vary greatly across the state. So do gasoline prices.
 

Offline ez24

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3092
  • Country: us
  • L.D.A.
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1753 on: September 11, 2018, 07:01:16 pm »
Bot sure where you are getting your California electricity prices, they are way off.  I wish we had rates as low as you claim.  Those rates need to be increased by 50% or more to be accurate for California.

In San Diego Calif for the last two months my cost has been $0.32 per KW  (I thought it was 0.45 because I saw that on their web page -so I am happy  :palm: ).  My guess if I had an EV I would be paying $0.45.  I used about 450 KW a month and ran the AC for about 10 hours.

A lot of times the quoted electric price does not include other electric charges like transmission charges ( the last time I looked it was half the total).  I use my total cost.

YouTube and Website Electronic Resources ------>  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/other-blog-specific/a/msg1341166/#msg1341166
 

Offline DougSpindler

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1157
  • Country: us
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1754 on: September 11, 2018, 07:05:33 pm »
Bot sure where you are getting your California electricity prices, they are way off. 

 ::) I clearly linked my source in the post.

Digging further - that link gets it's data from the EIA which is THE source for reliable statistics on all things energy related.

This EIA web page has links to all types of detailed state data. There you will find this Excel file which will give you all the gory details of historical electricity prices by state.

You may pay higher prices but what you pay may not be representative of other parts of California.  I know for a fact that electricity prices vary greatly across the state. So do gasoline prices.

Sorry not trying to ding you at all.  And YES, electricity prices greatly vary in California as do the rate plans.  I am a PG&E customer, and depending on the rate plan, one pays either as little as $0.11 kwhr or as much as $0.85 kwhr.  I'm on a rate plan where today, the rate will change 5 times today.


Sure we can average all of the rates, but what useful informaiton does that provide?






 

Offline bicycleguy

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 143
  • Country: us
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1755 on: September 11, 2018, 10:37:01 pm »
IMHO one of the errors with electric cars is that they emphasize on range left instead of charge left. It is simply impossible to calculate the remaining range accurate enough to be meaningful in practical circumstances. Just like ICE cars electric cars should show remaining charge as the primary indicator and range is just some kind of gross guesstimate.
HO ? really.

My 2014 Chevy Spark is spot on on range estimating.  Being a nurd, I always reset the trip odometer after a charge and while driving compare the current range estimate plus odometer with the original estimate.  As long as I drive in a consistent manner they are equal.  If I encounter some ICE vehicles that need a lesson in acceleration the range estimator immediately punishes my transgressions.

 

Offline DougSpindler

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1157
  • Country: us
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1756 on: September 11, 2018, 11:45:49 pm »
IMHO one of the errors with electric cars is that they emphasize on range left instead of charge left. It is simply impossible to calculate the remaining range accurate enough to be meaningful in practical circumstances. Just like ICE cars electric cars should show remaining charge as the primary indicator and range is just some kind of gross guesstimate.
HO ? really.

My 2014 Chevy Spark is spot on on range estimating.  Being a nurd, I always reset the trip odometer after a charge and while driving compare the current range estimate plus odometer with the original estimate.  As long as I drive in a consistent manner they are equal.  If I encounter some ICE vehicles that need a lesson in acceleration the range estimator immediately punishes my transgressions.

Sounds like you don't have very much fun when you drive.  Try flooring it once in a while and have some fun while driving.
 

Offline Neilm

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1434
  • Country: gb
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1757 on: September 12, 2018, 07:17:32 pm »
Wonder where he lives.  Electricity and gas prices are really low.  Where I in California we are on TOU billing for electricity.  So, we could be paying as little as double as what he's paying for electricity to almost 10 times as much.  As for gasoline we are paying about $1.00 more per gallon.

Lucky you - I filled up my car at £1.32 / liter. Which (if I remember the conversion correctly) is about $5 per US gallon.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe. - Albert Einstein
Tesla referral code https://ts.la/neil53539
 

Offline DougSpindler

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1157
  • Country: us
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1758 on: September 12, 2018, 07:46:29 pm »
Wonder where he lives.  Electricity and gas prices are really low.  Where I in California we are on TOU billing for electricity.  So, we could be paying as little as double as what he's paying for electricity to almost 10 times as much.  As for gasoline we are paying about $1.00 more per gallon.

Lucky you - I filled up my car at £1.32 / liter. Which (if I remember the conversion correctly) is about $5 per US gallon.


Sounds about right.  But to us Americans when we see 1.32 we think you are getting a much better deal.  By any chance next time I'm in your country could you make change for me?  Would you have two £20.00 for my $10.00?

 
 

Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2085
  • Country: pl
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1759 on: September 12, 2018, 08:31:07 pm »
Shell V-Power is at 1.35 €/litre here.
git diff *
 

Offline The Soulman

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 673
  • Country: nl
  • The sky is the limit!
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1760 on: September 12, 2018, 09:33:06 pm »
Shell V-Power is at 1.35 €/litre here.

€1,75 here.  :palm:
 

Offline ahbushnell

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 461
  • Country: us
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1761 on: September 13, 2018, 06:25:50 am »
The California gas taxes are going up.  One of these days EV's will have to start paying gas taxes to pay for the roads and all the boondoggles. 
 
The following users thanked this post: drussell

Offline jh15

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 455
  • Country: us
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1762 on: September 13, 2018, 06:59:48 am »
I don't drop in here much, can't keep up with 70+ threads.
Find a supercharger near you, and ask (if they are not eating nearby) to talk, or even test drive the car. I always ask to show license and insurance cards.

I NEVER thought my wife would go for one. She went with relatives to Boston for a show, and noticed a Tesla showroom. Their are no dealerships to hassle with.

No test drive, but got in one, and loved it. Ordered a test drive for months later. Bought the cheapest one with a couple extras, glass roof, no air suspension, 2wd, etc.
sticker on window says 69,000 doll hairs. 99 or 100 MPG equivalent epa, forgot which was which.

Tesla came from boston area to fix license plate bracket in my driveway, in Maine. no charge. Cool service truck, racks of tool drawers, air. Too bad was a Ford. (I think they are now just one tick above being a junk bond for investment now.) Probably use the Tesla pickup when it comes out. Maybe the Semi?

Funny thing is Honda mechanic that pounced me leaving my driveway a few weeks ago in my Element had a Ford, but only because he was recently hired was eyeing a red cop magnet honda to buy, then I showed him my S.

Replaced my killer windbags in 90 degree humid weather. Major job. I didn't notice till later a half dozen screws left on the floor, but was very competent and careful to be good to the car, saying some of the plastic parts had to be banged in with plastic and rubber mallets, etc.

These are called "barrel bolts" big barrel to throw stuff in after a repair in the middle of the garage.

Not bragging, we are retired, will die with our last car in the driveway.

My excuse? An original star trek with spock's father saying why he married an earth woman: It was the logical thing to do.

No oil changes, radiator fluids, conventional brake pads, high performance stuff like on Maserati and stuff but lasting 100 - to 200k because the regeneration does most of the braking.

Al U min ium body and suspension. rust killed all my cars.
tek 575 curve tracer top shape, 535 top shape, 465. 545 hickok clone, Telsa Model S,  Ohio Scientific c24P single board computer, many c-64 from my club days, Giant electric bicycle, Rigol stuff, Heathkit AR-15 receivers 2, Heathkit et 3400a trainer and interface,
 

Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2085
  • Country: pl
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1763 on: September 13, 2018, 08:11:36 am »
No oil changes, radiator fluids, conventional brake pads, high performance stuff like on Maserati and stuff but lasting 100 - to 200k because the regeneration does most of the braking.

Sorry but Tesla's got oil and radiator fluids to change too just like any other car, and (hygroscopic) brake fluid and A/C gas and windshield washer and air filter and etc, and in Europe most cars are manual and most of the braking we do with the engine (like your Tesla) and our cars weight much less than +2 tons (your +7 thousand cells 500kg battery is like carrying 5 people always) so our brake pads last ~ as much as on the Tesla, and our tyres last longer for the same reason.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 08:40:36 am by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
git diff *
 

Online coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4743
  • Country: gb
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1764 on: September 13, 2018, 10:43:34 am »
and in Europe most cars are manual and most of the braking we do with the engine (like your Tesla)
In Europe most small cars are manual, but anything as big as a Tesla is usually automatic.
 

Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2085
  • Country: pl
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1765 on: September 13, 2018, 12:18:10 pm »
and in Europe most cars are manual and most of the braking we do with the engine (like your Tesla)
In Europe most small cars are manual, but anything as big as a Tesla is usually automatic.

But most european automatic gearboxes can and do engine brake when lifting the accelerator unlike the most common american ones with fluid coupled torque converters.
git diff *
 

Online coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4743
  • Country: gb
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1766 on: September 13, 2018, 12:35:11 pm »
and in Europe most cars are manual and most of the braking we do with the engine (like your Tesla)
In Europe most small cars are manual, but anything as big as a Tesla is usually automatic.

But most european automatic gearboxes can and do engine brake when lifting the accelerator unlike the most common american ones with fluid coupled torque converters.
Most European automatics still have torque converters. Dual clutch gearboxes certainly don't dominate. Cars with torque converters give engine braking. That's why you have the ability to force an automatic into a lower gear with the gearstick - its how you control the car well on steep downhill runs. Of course, most automatics also have the ability to force the car into a lower gear with kickdown, to improve overtaking performance. That braking effect is one of the things which makes a torque converter different from a fluid flywheel.
 

Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2085
  • Country: pl
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1767 on: September 13, 2018, 01:18:20 pm »
AFAIK, since the 70s, most (like, ~ all) of the american cars mount turbo-hydramatic (and derivative) transmissions with fluid coupled torque converters which do not engine brake when you lift off the accelerator while in D.

OTOH, in Europe only a tiny % of the cars are automatics, and currently only a tiny % of that tiny % are hydramatics => most (as in ~all) european cars (automatic or not) can and do engine brake when you lift off the accelerator.
git diff *
 

Online coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4743
  • Country: gb
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1768 on: September 13, 2018, 01:37:59 pm »
AFAIK, since the 70s, most (like, ~ all) of the american cars mount turbo-hydramatic (and derivative) transmissions with fluid coupled torque converters which do not engine brake when you lift off the accelerator while in D.

OTOH, in Europe only a tiny % of the cars are automatics, and currently only a tiny % of that tiny % are hydramatics => most (as in ~all) european cars (automatic or not) can and do engine brake when you lift off the accelerator.
I've driven quite a few rental cars in the US, both American and Asian cars. I've never had one what didn't engine brake when I lifted the gas pedal. Turbo-Hydramatic is a GM commercial name for their gearboxes with a torque converter and a planetary geartrain. If it uses a torque converter it engine brakes. The only thing being in D affects is it allows all gears to be used automatically, while the other settings limit the range of gears. If you want heavy engine braking on a steep slope you need to prevent the automatic selection of the highest one or two gears.

You seem to greatly underestimate the number of automatic cars in Europe. Sure, most small cars are manual, but larger cars are mostly automatics. Quite a few big cars are not even offered with a manual gearbox.
 

Online SiliconWizard

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3686
  • Country: fr
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1769 on: September 13, 2018, 02:03:11 pm »
The California gas taxes are going up.  One of these days EV's will have to start paying gas taxes to pay for the roads and all the boondoggles.

For sure. They won't be called gas taxes of course.
We already have something prepared for this in France. The tax that used to apply to petrol-based energy products only has changed to a tax on any energy product a few years ago. I believe the same happened in some other european countries. For now, most developed countries use various incentives to get people to switch to electric vehicles, so that still looks like a "bargain" in energy costs, but once the user base is significant enough, the incentives will go away. Obviously.
 

Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2085
  • Country: pl
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1770 on: September 13, 2018, 02:18:05 pm »
If it uses a torque converter it engine brakes.

Nope, not in D, or perhaps ever so slightly but... there's a reason why you can't push-start a turbo hydramatic: the pump is driven by the engine not by the output shaft, when you lift rpms go down and the coupling decouples.
git diff *
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17966
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1771 on: September 13, 2018, 02:55:34 pm »
AFAIK, since the 70s, most (like, ~ all) of the american cars mount turbo-hydramatic (and derivative) transmissions with fluid coupled torque converters which do not engine brake when you lift off the accelerator while in D.

OTOH, in Europe only a tiny % of the cars are automatics, and currently only a tiny % of that tiny % are hydramatics => most (as in ~all) european cars (automatic or not) can and do engine brake when you lift off the accelerator.
You seem to greatly underestimate the number of automatic cars in Europe. Sure, most small cars are manual, but larger cars are mostly automatics. Quite a few big cars are not even offered with a manual gearbox.
Which ones? Even the vans I have driven where all manual.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4743
  • Country: gb
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1772 on: September 13, 2018, 04:11:10 pm »
AFAIK, since the 70s, most (like, ~ all) of the american cars mount turbo-hydramatic (and derivative) transmissions with fluid coupled torque converters which do not engine brake when you lift off the accelerator while in D.

OTOH, in Europe only a tiny % of the cars are automatics, and currently only a tiny % of that tiny % are hydramatics => most (as in ~all) european cars (automatic or not) can and do engine brake when you lift off the accelerator.
You seem to greatly underestimate the number of automatic cars in Europe. Sure, most small cars are manual, but larger cars are mostly automatics. Quite a few big cars are not even offered with a manual gearbox.
Which ones? Even the vans I have driven where all manual.
Automatic vans seem pretty rare all over the world, although many buses are automatic. I said large cars. Look at the bigger cars from Volvo, BMW, Audi, etc. The sportier ones are generally available as a manual. The more sedate versions tend to be automatic only, or manual is a factory order only that you have a considerable wait for.
 

Online coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4743
  • Country: gb
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1773 on: September 13, 2018, 04:13:07 pm »
If it uses a torque converter it engine brakes.

Nope, not in D, or perhaps ever so slightly but... there's a reason why you can't push-start a turbo hydramatic: the pump is driven by the engine not by the output shaft, when you lift rpms go down and the coupling decouples.
The push start issue is because you need the engine running to wind up the torque converter. That is completely different from the situation where the engine is running, but running slower than the wheels. Have you ever driven an automatic car down a steep hill? They engine brake.
 

Offline DougSpindler

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1157
  • Country: us
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1774 on: September 13, 2018, 04:19:25 pm »
If it uses a torque converter it engine brakes.

Nope, not in D, or perhaps ever so slightly but... there's a reason why you can't push-start a turbo hydramatic: the pump is driven by the engine not by the output shaft, when you lift rpms go down and the coupling decouples.
The push start issue is because you need the engine running to wind up the torque converter. That is completely different from the situation where the engine is running, but running slower than the wheels. Have you ever driven an automatic car down a steep hill? They engine brake.

Some cars with automatic transmissions can be push started.  I had a Ford with a dead battery and was able to push start.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf