Author Topic: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?  (Read 177720 times)

0 Members and 5 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline jh15

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 463
  • Country: us
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1825 on: September 18, 2018, 04:08:50 am »
I should start a thread "when will luxury/performance ev cars become mainstream?"

As an owner of a cheap Tesla S. never noticed a dent in our bill. The car has almost 300 miles range each morning off 120v x 2 outlets. about 10 mph charge rate. No tiers or timing in Maine yet. The new smart meter on outside wall behind my couch is ready I'm sure. (Ouch!! getting headaches from it. My milk is souring, and my cat is pregnant, even though HE has been fixed.

Took a long time to immunize against the digital cell towers. My 1500 watt ham transmitter or tinfoil hat must have done that).

Anyway built in America, someone has to oil the robots, and  something like 90% of parts sourced here. Elon tried China, but was not cost worthy. Even though people buy $1100 crapapple chinesium phones.

My car cost 69000 on the window sticker, and we got a $7500 tax rebate, which we applied for upgrades last spring.

Big bummer is yesterday the drivers window rubber started screeching yesterday. Thought I was done needing to work on cars. Guess need to get out the 303 treatment. Or maybe wash the windows.

I'll post actual data but I think our average kwh/mile is about 225. And we kind of leadfoot it, so much safer than expecting a transmission to downshift or be distracted by manual shifting.

I hate not having a spare tire. guess luxury car owners want to have AAA or a butler do it. Could throw one in the Frunk.

Having a cheap one we did not get the air suspension. they give you a little settee stand then you just lift and separate.

« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 04:26:40 am by jh15 »
tek 575 curve tracer top shape, 535 top shape, 465. 545 hickok clone, Telsa Model S,  Ohio Scientific c24P single board computer, many c-64 from my club days, Giant electric bicycle, Rigol stuff, Heathkit AR-15 receivers 2, Heathkit et 3400a trainer and interface,
 

Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2284
  • Country: tr
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1826 on: September 18, 2018, 07:19:18 am »
I hate not having a spare tire. guess luxury car owners want to have AAA or a butler do it. Could throw one in the Frunk.

One that's short.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 07:21:51 am by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
*** SERIOUSLY, GENTLEMEN, TRY BRAVE *** https://brave.com/
 

Offline coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4899
  • Country: gb
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1827 on: September 18, 2018, 10:50:16 am »
I hate not having a spare tire. guess luxury car owners want to have AAA or a butler do it. Could throw one in the Frunk.
I've been stranded by a couple of car issues, but I have never used a spare tyre. I wonder what percentage of all "car won't go" incidents are actually helped by the presence of a spare tyre?
 

Online Kjelt

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5751
  • Country: nl
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1828 on: September 18, 2018, 12:36:54 pm »
I might have underestimated how fast this goes.
Audi released their new E-SUV the e-tron today, costing a stunning startprice of €84000 in our country and $75000 in the US.
Still there are already 10000 pre-orders in Belgium  :o
Can't believe this but if true it will go much faster than I anticipated.
They call it the e-car for the masses but at €84000 I know no-one that can afford it  :)
 

Offline coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4899
  • Country: gb
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1829 on: September 18, 2018, 02:47:15 pm »
I might have underestimated how fast this goes.
Audi released their new E-SUV the e-tron today, costing a stunning startprice of €84000 in our country and $75000 in the US.
Still there are already 10000 pre-orders in Belgium  :o
Can't believe this but if true it will go much faster than I anticipated.
They call it the e-car for the masses but at €84000 I know no-one that can afford it  :)
The e-car for the enormous masses of the bloated plutocrats.
 

Offline DougSpindler

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1157
  • Country: us
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1830 on: September 18, 2018, 03:16:29 pm »
Still I'm not sure the numbers quoted for the Tesla are right. AFAIK the Tesla needs about 250Wh per km from the 'socket on the wall'. With $0.45 per kWh that brings the cost to $0,11 per km. With $3.95 per gallon and an mileage of (let's stay conservative) 35MPG = 56kmPG you get a cost of $0.07 per km. With an efficient ICE car in the 45MPG range the fuel costs go down to little over $0.05 per km.

There sure is a large variation in the cost electricity and gas around the world.  Even if the guy’s math is +/- 10% or even 20% he’s showing the energy cost for an EV and ICE are comparable.  And if electricity coasts continue to rise faster than gas, electric cars will be more expensive to power.  Now to be fair he’s not factoring on oil changes.  But then again for the past 20 years I change the oil in my cars about once every 2 years or every 20,000 miles.  So, for my figures add in another $20 per year on the ICE for oil changes.

Yet more cherry-picked numbers?  You find me a car with a 20,000 mile oil change interval (most are 10,000 mile, maybe 15,000), and I'll show you a car which takes full synthentic oil.  $20 wouldn't even buy the oil for an oil-change, which typically runs around $30+/5 qt.

There you go again not comprehending what was written in my post.  Take a deep beath and go back and read what I wrote about oil changes and how I arrived at $20 per year.  No I do not and the car does not need synthetic oil.  If you are an honorable person you will apologize for not understanding what I wrote.  If you are a jerk, you won’t and deomostrane you have an agenda which is not to get at the truth.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 03:42:43 pm by DougSpindler »
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 18277
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1831 on: September 18, 2018, 04:18:40 pm »
I might have underestimated how fast this goes.
Audi released their new E-SUV the e-tron today, costing a stunning startprice of €84000 in our country and $75000 in the US.
Still there are already 10000 pre-orders in Belgium  :o
Can't believe this but if true it will go much faster than I anticipated.
They call it the e-car for the masses but at €84000 I know no-one that can afford it  :)
All for business. So no VAT, deductable from tax and environmental subsidies on top. A couple of years ago this would knock off about 75% of the retail price. I don't know the exact numbers right now but as a business you can still get an EV with hefty discounts.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 18277
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1832 on: September 18, 2018, 04:27:32 pm »
I hate not having a spare tire. guess luxury car owners want to have AAA or a butler do it. Could throw one in the Frunk.
I've been stranded by a couple of car issues, but I have never used a spare tyre. I wonder what percentage of all "car won't go" incidents are actually helped by the presence of a spare tyre?
Well, the ones that have to do with a leaky tyre. Having a real spare tyre has helped me to keep going several times already. But then again we used to do a lot of long (cross Europe) trips with the car.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online Kjelt

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5751
  • Country: nl
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1833 on: September 18, 2018, 07:29:47 pm »
All for business. So no VAT, deductable from tax and environmental subsidies on top. A couple of years ago this would knock off about 75% of the retail price. I don't know the exact numbers right now but as a business you can still get an EV with hefty discounts.
Ends as of end of this year at least what I heard. Then the unsold EV's will stay in the showroom
 

Offline boffin

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 917
  • Country: ca
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1834 on: September 18, 2018, 09:01:42 pm »
I think the mass adoption of EVs will take a lot longer than may expect or wish for - unless there is more radical changes in the battery technology and/or cost than currently predicted.

I think that depends a lot of your jurisdiction.  Here in Western Canada, the combination of cheap electricity (about £0.06/kWh) from hydro electric, and relatively (for north america) expensive gasoline (£0.88/l), it means that my EV energy consumption costs are about 1/8th of the same car with an internal combustion engine. FWIW I drive a VW eGolf. In jurisdictions with more expensive electricity, and cheaper gasoline, perhaps the numbers aren't quite so beneficial, but you'd be hard pressed to find any jurisdiction where they don't hold out.

I see about 17kWh/100km (consumption from the socket) on my VW eGolf @ C$0.093/kWh*1 (my EVSE measures, so I know the real numbers)
The same car (VW Golf) in ICE consumes about 8.5l / 100k*2 with typical gasoline prices @ C$1.49

Vancouver Canada
EV: C$1.58
ICE: C$12.67

In reality about 20-30% of my charging is done at free charging stations around town, so my direct costs are a little lower than that; but's lets assume worse case where I pay for every electron. The additional purchase price (about C$6k more vs the ICE version) will be paid off long before I get rid of the car, and the lower maintenance costs are just an added bonus that I haven't factored in.



If you ran the numbers in Southern California at 0.48/kWh and 3.95/gal (1.04/l) for fuel, the numbers are still better for an EV, although that advantage is marginal if you only charge using peak electricity rates. Luckily PG&E have specific tiered rate plans for EV owners to help them minimize costs.

Southern California
EV: $8.16 (day charging @ 0.48*3)
EV: $2.21 (overnight charging @ 0.13/kWh*3)
ICE: $8.84 (@3.95)
ICE: $7.27 (@3.25)



Even in Europe, the numbers are such that an EV is well worth it, and assuming a smaller displacement VW Golf (@ 5.2l/100km or 54 ImpMPG) in the Netherlands @ 1.35/l , and electricity @ 0.22/kWh *4

Netherlands
EV: €3.74 (overnight rates would drop this slightly)
ICE: €7.02

references:
*1 https://app.bchydro.com/accounts-billing/rates-energy-use/electricity-rates/residential-rates.html
*2 https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/sites/www.nrcan.gc.ca/files/oee/pdf/transportation/tools/fuelratings/2018%20Fuel%20Consumption%20Guide.pdf
*3 https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHEDS_EV%20(Sch).pdf
*4 numbers as provided by nctnico in eevblog forum

(edited to add lower end of California fuel prices)
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 02:19:11 am by boffin »
 
The following users thanked this post: mtdoc, ez24

Offline DougSpindler

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1157
  • Country: us
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1835 on: September 19, 2018, 12:29:32 am »
I think the mass adoption of EVs will take a lot longer than may expect or wish for - unless there is more radical changes in the battery technology and/or cost than currently predicted.

I think that depends a lot of your jurisdiction.  Here in Western Canada, the combination of cheap electricity (about £0.06/kWh) from hydro electric, and relatively (for north america) expensive gasoline (£0.88/l), it means that my EV energy consumption costs are about 1/8th of the same car with an internal combustion engine. FWIW I drive a VW eGolf. In jurisdictions with more expensive electricity, and cheaper gasoline, perhaps the numbers aren't quite so beneficial, but you'd be hard pressed to find any jurisdiction where they don't hold out.

I see about 17kWh/100km (consumption from the socket) on my VW eGolf @ C$0.093/kWh*1 (my EVSE measures, so I know the real numbers)
The same car (VW Golf) in ICE consumes about 8.5l / 100k*2 with typical gasoline prices @ C$1.49

Vancouver Canada
EV: C$1.58
ICE: C$12.67

In reality about 20-30% of my charging is done at free charging stations around town, so my direct costs are a little lower than that; but's lets assume worse case where I pay for every electron. The additional purchase price (about C$6k more vs the ICE version) will be paid off long before I get rid of the car, and the lower maintenance costs are just an added bonus that I haven't factored in.



If you ran the numbers in Southern California at 0.48/kWh and 3.95/gal (1.04/l) for fuel, the numbers are still better for an EV, although that advantage is marginal if you only charge using peak electricity rates. Luckily PG&E have specific tiered rate plans for EV owners to help them minimize costs.

Southern California
EV: $8.16 (day charging @ 0.48*3)
EV: $2.21 (overnight charging @ 0.13/kWh*3)
ICE: $8.84


Even in Europe, the numbers are such that an EV is well worth it, and assuming a smaller displacement VW Golf (@ 5.2l/100km or 54 ImpMPG) in the Netherlands @ 1.35/l , and electricity @ 0.22/kWh and fuel @ 1.35/l *4

Netherlands
EV: €3.74 (overnight rates would drop this slightly)
ICE: €7.02

references:
*1 https://app.bchydro.com/accounts-billing/rates-energy-use/electricity-rates/residential-rates.html
*2 https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/sites/www.nrcan.gc.ca/files/oee/pdf/transportation/tools/fuelratings/2018%20Fuel%20Consumption%20Guide.pdf
*3 https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHEDS_EV%20(Sch).pdf
*4 numbers as provided by nctnico in eevblog forum

Get ready to be called a troll by mtdoc.  I posted the same rates for electricity in the San Francisco Bay Area by mtdoc and he called me a liar and a troll.  I even provided the links the PG&E rates web page and mtdoc still called me a troll.

 

Offline mtdoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3582
  • Country: us
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1836 on: September 19, 2018, 01:20:54 am »

Get ready to be called a troll by mtdoc.  I posted the same rates for electricity in the San Francisco Bay Area by mtdoc and he called me a liar and a troll.  I even provided the links the PG&E rates web page and mtdoc still called me a troll.

What are you 13 years old?    :palm:

You did nothing of the sort. You claimed that your electricity cost you 0.48 per kWh (and costs 0.86/kWh other places) and provided absolutely no proof of that. In fact what you did provide refuted that. Despite repeated requests to provide your location or document your rate you have not.  The PGE website clearly refuted your claims. 

As Boffin posted - even someplace where high TOU rates may be in force (as I said earlier do exist)- low rates are available for EV charging at other times and EV costs are lower then ICE.

You have over and over again since you joined this forum, made claims of facts which when asked,  failed to provide any documentation or proof and when examined have proven to be false.  You come in and out of these threads with nothing but bullshit and trolling nonsense.

Boffin has done what you and the anti EVers  here have never done: Provided direct comparisons with references.  What they clearly show is that  EV fueling costs are lower than ICE across multiple locations.   :clap:


« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 01:29:13 am by mtdoc »
 
The following users thanked this post: boffin

Offline DougSpindler

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1157
  • Country: us
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1837 on: September 20, 2018, 05:01:53 pm »

Get ready to be called a troll by mtdoc.  I posted the same rates for electricity in the San Francisco Bay Area by mtdoc and he called me a liar and a troll.  I even provided the links the PG&E rates web page and mtdoc still called me a troll.

What are you 13 years old?    :palm:

You did nothing of the sort. You claimed that your electricity cost you 0.48 per kWh (and costs 0.86/kWh other places) and provided absolutely no proof of that. In fact what you did provide refuted that. Despite repeated requests to provide your location or document your rate you have not.  The PGE website clearly refuted your claims. 

As Boffin posted - even someplace where high TOU rates may be in force (as I said earlier do exist)- low rates are available for EV charging at other times and EV costs are lower then ICE.

You have over and over again since you joined this forum, made claims of facts which when asked,  failed to provide any documentation or proof and when examined have proven to be false.  You come in and out of these threads with nothing but bullshit and trolling nonsense.

Boffin has done what you and the anti EVers  here have never done: Provided direct comparisons with references.  What they clearly show is that  EV fueling costs are lower than ICE across multiple locations.   :clap:

If I am 13 you must be 3.  Look I mean no disrepect and you are not going to win an argument by insuting people.  You have called me a troll and a liar.  You say I don't provide any documentaion or proof.

Not exactly sure what your agenda is or what is is your goal is but is most certainly is not the truth.

I porived a link to the power compnay's web site where I purchase my power from.  I stated they have rates as high as $0.862 per kWhr for some rates plans.  My firend I just clicked on the link I provided to you previously.  Here's a screenshot which proves PG&E does in fact charge between 2 and 6 pm as mush as $0.862 per hWhr.  Dude click on the link and see for yourself PG&E charges upto $0.862 per kWhr.

I stated for the rate plan I am on, I'm paying as much as $0.45 kWhr with PG&E.  There was another individual who lives in Southern California who stated he was paying a bit more than the $0.45 kWhr PG&E charges and it appears you did not beleive that person either.


So dude, stop with the insults and name calling and let's have a discussion like grown-ups.

Let's review.  In California there are over 70 different power companies.  In the San Francisco Bay Area the biggest is PG&E, but there are others.  PG&E offers residentail customers a choice of 9 different rate plans.  (Tiered, Time of Use, Tired Time of Use, Stright Time of Use no tiering.)  I am on the straight Time of Use rate plan with no tiering which means the amount I pay per kWhr chages upto 5 times in a 24 hr period.  The most I currently pay for a kWhr is $0.45, but other PG&E customers can pay over $0.85.

If one uses the numbers the in the Tesla guy's video and applies PG&Es rates and California gas prices one finds the cost difference to power an ICE and an EV is about the same.  (Slight edge it EV, but not much.)  But when PG&E raises electricty rates ICEs will cost less to power than EVs.
 





 

Offline mtdoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3582
  • Country: us
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1838 on: September 20, 2018, 05:48:02 pm »
The question has never been are there some places, somewhere,  that at some heavy use times, charge ridiculously high electricity rates.  Of course, we all know that is true.  The issue is what will the cost of ownership be for a typical EV driver versus a typical ICE driver. Obviously, cost of fueling is the largest cost of ownership.

Anyone who picks $0.45/kWh as the point of comparison is being dishonest.   Even in one of he most expensive electricity markets in the world (California) that price is rare and only applicable during high TOU hours which as any EV owner will tell you, is not what they will be paying.

Suggesting that $0.45/kWh is the price someone with an EV will commonly pay for electricity is just as dishonest as it would be claiming that typical ICE refuelling costs would be $8/gallon because there are places that charge that much.

I porived a link to the power compnay's web site where I purchase my power from.  I stated they have rates as high as $0.862 per kWhr for some rates plans.  My firend I just clicked on the link I provided to you previously.  Here's a screenshot which proves PG&E does in fact charge between 2 and 6 pm as mush as $0.862 per hWhr.  Dude click on the link and see for yourself PG&E charges upto $0.862 per kWhr.

This is the link you provided. That page (as all can see) is a list of links to numerous spreadsheets with rates. Nowhere on that page can I find what you posted or a link to that graph (and the pic and your post give no info about where it comes from) Of course PGE has a large website with no doubt multple sublinks, etc - so it could be there somewhere. As I said it would not surprise me that someone at some location - in some exremely hight TOU scenario would pay that much. That is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.  What is relevant is what most people pay most of the time and what an EV owner would pay when charging at low TOU hours.

What the link you provided does show directly contradicts your claims (and it is dishonest of you to imply otherwise).  In multiple spreadsheets - it shows that in one of the most expensive electricity markets in the USA, electricity rates are no where near what you have claimed.  Again here is a screen shot from the most recent, TOP,  FRONT AND CENTER spreadsheet linked on that page. Other spreadsheets on that page that I've looked at show similar or lower rates (there are hundreds and I did not look at all of them).

[

If you want to engage in constructive debate on this topic, back up all statements of fact with a linked reference and don't lie about what the links show (as any review of this thread will confirm you've repeatedly done).



« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 05:49:55 pm by mtdoc »
 

Offline DougSpindler

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1157
  • Country: us
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1839 on: September 20, 2018, 06:32:20 pm »
The question has never been are there some places, somewhere,  that at some heavy use times, charge ridiculously high electricity rates.  Of course, we all know that is true.  The issue is what will the cost of ownership be for a typical EV driver versus a typical ICE driver. Obviously, cost of fueling is the largest cost of ownership.

Anyone who picks $0.45/kWh as the point of comparison is being dishonest.   Even in one of he most expensive electricity markets in the world (California) that price is rare and only applicable during high TOU hours which as any EV owner will tell you, is not what they will be paying.

Suggesting that $0.45/kWh is the price someone with an EV will commonly pay for electricity is just as dishonest as it would be claiming that typical ICE refuelling costs would be $8/gallon because there are places that charge that much.

I porived a link to the power compnay's web site where I purchase my power from.  I stated they have rates as high as $0.862 per kWhr for some rates plans.  My firend I just clicked on the link I provided to you previously.  Here's a screenshot which proves PG&E does in fact charge between 2 and 6 pm as mush as $0.862 per hWhr.  Dude click on the link and see for yourself PG&E charges upto $0.862 per kWhr.

This is the link you provided. That page (as all can see) is a list of links to numerous spreadsheets with rates. Nowhere on that page can I find what you posted or a link to that graph (and the pic and your post give no info about where it comes from) Of course PGE has a large website with no doubt multple sublinks, etc - so it could be there somewhere. As I said it would not surprise me that someone at some location - in some exremely hight TOU scenario would pay that much. That is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.  What is relevant is what most people pay most of the time and what an EV owner would pay when charging at low TOU hours.

What the link you provided does show directly contradicts your claims (and it is dishonest of you to imply otherwise).  In multiple spreadsheets - it shows that in one of the most expensive electricity markets in the USA, electricity rates are no where near what you have claimed.  Again here is a screen shot from the most recent, TOP,  FRONT AND CENTER spreadsheet linked on that page. Other spreadsheets on that page that I've looked at show similar or lower rates (there are hundreds and I did not look at all of them).

[

If you want to engage in constructive debate on this topic, back up all statements of fact with a linked reference and don't lie about what the links show (as any review of this thread will confirm you've repeatedly done).


Thank you for being respectful.  I will do the same.
If the issue is the cost of ownership can we go with the figures from the guy in the Tesla video? 

I am an EV onwer and I am on a rate plan where the rates today vary from $0.12 to $0.45  I will tell you there are times when I have to charge when the rate is $0.45.  Not a fair compariesion to say gas prices are $8.00 /gal.  Gas here ranges from $3.25 to $4.00 for regular.  I don't think one could buy gas for  $8.00 gallon anywhere in California.


But I will tell you when I have to use a public pay to charge charing station there are times when I have to pay the $0.45 or more to get a charge.   

I do charge my car at the lowest rate most of the time.  So my average rate is probably $0.14 which is about a dime leass than what you keep saying.


As I keep telling  you PG&E had 9 different rate plans for residental customers. E-1, E-6, E-7, E-9A, E-9B, EV-1, EV-B, ETOU-A and ETOU-B.  I beleive the figure you are looking at is the average of all of the different rates PG&E changes for ALL of the different rate plans.  This is NOT what a customers plays.  It's a clever math trick which provides a misleading answer.  We consume 75% of our electricty at off peak hours, and 15-20% at on-Peak.  Dollar wise what we pay for off-peak is the same as on-peak even though we use over 50% more during off-peak.

But let's get back to the cost of powering an ICE vs. EV.  Can we used the Tesla's guys numbers?  If so I would be more than willing to go through those numbers with you.  Yes I am one data point.  But out of the 70+ power companies in California the vast majority of residents are getting their power from one of 4 power compnaies and they all have rates which are about the same.  So while I might be one data point, I would be a fair represnetaiton of anyone who buys power from the four big ones.


 

 

















 

Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2284
  • Country: tr
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1840 on: September 20, 2018, 06:36:46 pm »
The price at the superchargers is $0.26 per kWh. Plus taxes? IDK.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 06:39:25 pm by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
*** SERIOUSLY, GENTLEMEN, TRY BRAVE *** https://brave.com/
 

Offline DougSpindler

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1157
  • Country: us
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1841 on: September 21, 2018, 12:55:47 am »
The price at the superchargers is $0.26 per kWh. Plus taxes? IDK.

And at non-superchargers?  In California there some charging stations also make you pay for parking while you charge.  So not only do you pay for the electricity to charge your car, one also has to pay for the space to park the car in so it can be charged.


 

Offline coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4899
  • Country: gb
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1842 on: September 21, 2018, 12:59:43 am »
The price at the superchargers is $0.26 per kWh. Plus taxes? IDK.

And at non-superchargers?  In California there some charging stations also make you pay for parking while you charge.  So not only do you pay for the electricity to charge your car, one also has to pay for the space to park the car in so it can be charged.
There seems to be a lot of that globally, because the places are primarily commercial car parks. The chargers is supposed to enhance the value of the parking. The parking is not intended to devalue the charging.
 

Offline mtdoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3582
  • Country: us
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1843 on: September 21, 2018, 03:44:44 am »
Per Tesla's website, Model S and Model X drivers get 400 kWh of supercharging per year for free.  Since superchargers are meant for long road trips that probably covers most drivers usage.  Model 3 drivers are out of luck.

But even at $0.26/kWh, the Tesla's fueling cost via Supercharger is much less than an equivalent performing ICE vehicle. (Tesla assumes a vehicle getting 21mpg which is pretty reasonable assumption given that only ICE muscle cars come close to matching a Teslas performance.  And $2.85/gallon is a generous assumption - gasoline is more expensive than that most places now).  OF course since most charging is done at home for much less ($0.07 - $0.15/kWh depending on location an TOU) the savings will be much greater.



« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 03:56:39 am by mtdoc »
 

Offline DougSpindler

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1157
  • Country: us
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1844 on: September 21, 2018, 04:41:45 am »
Tesla”s web page pretty much agrees with what the guy in the video posted about energy costs between his Tesla EV and his ICE.  Cost to power either is pretty much the same.  Less than than what most people spend at a Starbucks in less than a month.

These posts really have me wondering.....  What exactly are the advantages are of an EV.....  And I own one.
 

Offline mtdoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3582
  • Country: us
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1845 on: September 21, 2018, 04:51:14 am »
Tesla”s web page pretty much agrees with what the guy in the video posted about energy costs between his Tesla EV and his ICE.  Cost to power either is pretty much the same.

 :palm:

Per 1,500 miles:

ICE - (21mpg, $2.85/gallon)  = $204

Tesla charged via supercharger  ($0.26/kWh)   =   $106
Tesla charged at Doug's house ($0.14/kWh -per his recent admission in reply #1839)  =  $57
Telsa charged at my house ($0.07/kWh)  =  $29

Yeah, "pretty much the same"  ::)

« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 05:11:52 am by mtdoc »
 
The following users thanked this post: boffin

Offline a59d1

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 102
  • Country: us
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1846 on: September 21, 2018, 07:18:28 am »
This thread continues to be my one of my reliable daily sources of entertainment; I wonder how long it'll take before we're arguing over fractions of a cent in price.

Please be reasonable to each other.
 

Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2284
  • Country: tr
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1847 on: September 21, 2018, 08:19:11 am »
I'm sorry Mr. USA, but in Europe 21 MPG is a gas guzzler. This Skoda compares much better to a Model 3:

ICE - (21mpg, $2.85/gallon)  = $204
Tesla charged via supercharger  ($0.26/kWh)   =   $106

Skoda Octavia TDI RS ICE (53 MPG, $2.85/gallon) = $80.6

64 mpg(UK) = 53 mpg(US) = 4.4 litres/100 km
https://www.parkers.co.uk/skoda/octavia/vrs-2013/20-tdi-cr-vrs-hatchback-5d/specs/
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 08:21:18 am by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
*** SERIOUSLY, GENTLEMEN, TRY BRAVE *** https://brave.com/
 

Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2284
  • Country: tr
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1848 on: September 21, 2018, 08:38:55 am »
Tesla charged via supercharger  ($0.26/kWh)   =   $106

That ^^^ would be 106/0.26= 407.7 kWh / 1500 miles => 272 Wh/mile = 16.9 kWh/100 km, which is simply not true, neither for a Model 3, nor much less for a Model S.

Even the unbelievably good hyper optimistic figures of Mr. Boffin for a much smaller e-golf, are more than that.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 08:51:49 am by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
*** SERIOUSLY, GENTLEMEN, TRY BRAVE *** https://brave.com/
 

Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2284
  • Country: tr
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #1849 on: September 21, 2018, 08:48:06 am »
There's an impedance mismatch in this thread between the USA and Europe posters' views, due to the fact that our and their MPGs and fuel costs are completely different.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 08:56:01 am by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
*** SERIOUSLY, GENTLEMEN, TRY BRAVE *** https://brave.com/
 
The following users thanked this post: a59d1


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf