Author Topic: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?  (Read 163233 times)

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Offline coppice

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2625 on: December 27, 2018, 07:46:20 pm »
It's not the same for heating though, since with an ICE you can use waste heat from the engine to heat the passenger compartment. I think I read somewhere about a BEV which had an optional kerosene heter.
ICE cars sold in northern climates also have kerosene or gasoline burners on the options list. Its not for normal operation. Its for times when a breakdown or accident leaves you stranded without the engine able to stop you freezing to death.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2626 on: December 27, 2018, 08:13:56 pm »
It's not the same for heating though, since with an ICE you can use waste heat from the engine to heat the passenger compartment. I think I read somewhere about a BEV which had an optional kerosene heter.
ICE cars sold in northern climates also have kerosene or gasoline burners on the options list. Its not for normal operation. Its for times when a breakdown or accident leaves you stranded without the engine able to stop you freezing to death.
\
So BEV cars do emit CO2 at times.
 

Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2627 on: December 27, 2018, 08:49:53 pm »
It's not the same for heating though, since with an ICE you can use waste heat from the engine to heat the passenger compartment. I think I read somewhere about a BEV which had an optional kerosene heter.
Not true.  You can use the waste heat from the battery's liquid cooling radiator to warm the interior in the exact same way you use the waste heat from an ICE's liquid cooling radiator.

They could, but they don't: https://insideevs.com/energy-consumption-of-various-tesla-heating-features/

Quote
One of the few disadvantages of EVs is that they don’t create the excess heat associated with ICE vehicles. Energy from the battery must be used to produce heat when the cold weather sets in. The Tesla Model S and Model X use resistance heating (think of a space heater) to heat the cabin. Other Tesla heating features include, heated seats, defrosters, heated wipers, and heated mirrors provide protection against the cold.

tesla-heating-2
KmanAuto Uses An App Called Remote S To Measure Power Consumption
This is all part of the reason that EVs lose range in the winter, or in generally colder climates. How much power do heating features consume?

The YouTube video by Model S owner, Kman Auto, spells it all out.

Chris shows us Tesla’s SubZero Weather Package and its power impact. His breakdown is below, and thanks to Teslarati, we also have estimated range reduction by the amount of miles per hour.

Baseline (vehicle at rest but powered up): 247 Wh = .74 mph
Defroster (rear window & side mirror heaters): 285 Wh = .86 mph
Steering Wheel Heater: 95 Wh = .29 mph
Heated Wipers & Nozzles: 95Wh = .29 mph
1 Seat Heater: 57 Wh = .17 mph
2 Seat Heaters: 1cabin reached 108 F quickly33 Wh = .40 mph
3 Seat Heaters: 171 Wh = .51 mph
4 Seat Heaters: 209 Wh = .63 mph
5 Seat Heaters: 247 Wh = .74 mph
HVAC at ‘HI’ or 82F (28C): 6.4 kWh = ~18..20 mph
HVAC at 74F (23C): 342 Wh = 1.03 mph


Why? Because I2R losses in the battery aren't anywhere near 6 kW, I think. If they were the efficiency of EVs would be a disaster: between 25 and 33% I2R losses (?).
« Last Edit: December 27, 2018, 08:59:45 pm by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
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Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2628 on: December 27, 2018, 08:55:25 pm »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Japan

In the text that had been cropped it says they base the calculations on how Japan generated electricity (sometime before 2005) which implies a lot of nuclear and a little renewable energy in the mix.

A lot of fossil fuels, a little nuclear, and a tiny bit of renewables I would say. ¿No?
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Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2629 on: December 27, 2018, 08:57:47 pm »
\
So BEV cars do emit CO2 at times.

At all times.
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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2630 on: December 27, 2018, 09:11:02 pm »
It's not the same for heating though, since with an ICE you can use waste heat from the engine to heat the passenger compartment. I think I read somewhere about a BEV which had an optional kerosene heter.
Not true.  You can use the waste heat from the battery's liquid cooling radiator to warm the interior in the exact same way you use the waste heat from an ICE's liquid cooling radiator.

They could, but they don't: https://insideevs.com/energy-consumption-of-various-tesla-heating-features/

Quote
One of the few disadvantages of EVs is that they don’t create the excess heat associated with ICE vehicles. Energy from the battery must be used to produce heat when the cold weather sets in. The Tesla Model S and Model X use resistance heating (think of a space heater) to heat the cabin. Other Tesla heating features include, heated seats, defrosters, heated wipers, and heated mirrors provide protection against the cold.

tesla-heating-2
KmanAuto Uses An App Called Remote S To Measure Power Consumption
This is all part of the reason that EVs lose range in the winter, or in generally colder climates. How much power do heating features consume?

The YouTube video by Model S owner, Kman Auto, spells it all out.

Chris shows us Tesla’s SubZero Weather Package and its power impact. His breakdown is below, and thanks to Teslarati, we also have estimated range reduction by the amount of miles per hour.

Baseline (vehicle at rest but powered up): 247 Wh = .74 mph
Defroster (rear window & side mirror heaters): 285 Wh = .86 mph
Steering Wheel Heater: 95 Wh = .29 mph
Heated Wipers & Nozzles: 95Wh = .29 mph
1 Seat Heater: 57 Wh = .17 mph
2 Seat Heaters: 1cabin reached 108 F quickly33 Wh = .40 mph
3 Seat Heaters: 171 Wh = .51 mph
4 Seat Heaters: 209 Wh = .63 mph
5 Seat Heaters: 247 Wh = .74 mph
HVAC at ‘HI’ or 82F (28C): 6.4 kWh = ~18..20 mph
HVAC at 74F (23C): 342 Wh = 1.03 mph


Why? Because I2R losses in the battery aren't anywhere near 6 kW, I think. If they were the efficiency of EVs would be a disaster: between 25 and 33% I2R losses (?).

I am not sure how to interpret range reduction with units of speed (mph=miles per hour).  There is something missing here - a duration in hours or a base range or something.   It is also interesting that one seat heater used 57 WH, while two used 108 (the second seat used only 51 WH, maybe manufacturing variability?).  Two seat heaters are more than twice the WH of one, but mph drops by more than two?
Similar interesting effects when seats 3, 4 and 5 are added in.

There is surely some basis to all of these numbers, but it is really hard to make sense of them.  Maybe the author has a second career writing data sheets.
 

Offline apis

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2631 on: December 27, 2018, 10:37:41 pm »
A lot of fossil fuels, a little nuclear, and a tiny bit of renewables I would say. ¿No?
At 2000 it looks like about 60% fossil fuels, about 30% nuclear, 9% hydro and 1% other renewable.
Someone said the calculations was based on 100% coal, but in reality it was a lot of additional nuclear and some hydro in the mix. Besides, Japan's fossil fuel is not only coal.
I found a better graph here:
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/images/2015.02.11/main.png

As the other graph shows a BEV can be worse than PHEV and even ICE if you plan on charging it with electricity only from coal power plants. In some places where they have mostly coal power (North Dakota, Australia, South Africa, Poland, India) a PHEV might be the best option wrt GhG emissions.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 12:50:57 am by apis »
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2632 on: December 27, 2018, 11:21:27 pm »
Couldn't a heater be integrated into the glass by adding a conductive layer similar to what's used for LCDs? That combined with making the glass double pane should be able to greatly cut down on the power needed to prevent the glass from fogging up.
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Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2633 on: December 27, 2018, 11:27:40 pm »
Couldn't a heater be integrated into the glass by adding a conductive layer similar to what's used for LCDs? That combined with making the glass double pane should be able to greatly cut down on the power needed to prevent the glass from fogging up.
That already exists. It works well but the wires are somewhat visible. AFAIK this has been abandoned already by car manufacturers because it makes it very expensive to replace the glass. Also remember that the front window often is an integral part of the structural strength of the body of the car.
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Offline boffin

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2634 on: December 28, 2018, 12:06:27 am »
Couldn't a heater be integrated into the glass by adding a conductive layer similar to what's used for LCDs? That combined with making the glass double pane should be able to greatly cut down on the power needed to prevent the glass from fogging up.

Yes, electrically heated windshields are standard equipment on my EV (and a lot of other higher-end EV and ICE vehciles), and it works very very quickly.  I'd guess that the additional cost of the small wires embedded, adds a small amount to the total cost of the windshield, but it's a smallish number when compared to the labour and shipping costs of a windshield replacement.

Looking at the numbers that someone else posted, the ones in Green are EV only, the ones in red would equally apply to an EV or ICE vehicle as an ICE would have to generate the electricity.  This is the kind of annoying argument that pro-ICE people throw out, and never stop to think about; Electricity & Air Con are not free on an ICE vehicle, they cost hydrocarbons to generate/operate.  In fact I'd argue that the AC is likely more efficient on an EV because it's operating in a cooler environment and not surrounded by a very very hot engine mass.

Baseline (vehicle at rest but powered up): 247 Wh = .74 mph
Defroster (rear window & side mirror heaters): 285 Wh = .86 mph
Steering Wheel Heater: 95 Wh = .29 mph
Heated Wipers & Nozzles: 95Wh = .29 mph
1 Seat Heater: 57 Wh = .17 mph
2 Seat Heaters: 1cabin reached 108 F quickly33 Wh = .40 mph
3 Seat Heaters: 171 Wh = .51 mph
4 Seat Heaters: 209 Wh = .63 mph
5 Seat Heaters: 247 Wh = .74 mph
HVAC at ‘HI’ or 82F (28C): 6.4 kWh = ~18..20 mph
HVAC at 74F (23C): 342 Wh = 1.03 mph


As for total 'idle' power consumption, my car with the heater on medium, on a cool (2C) day, the front and rear defroster, headlights etc, I've never seen more than about 1.5kW (or that's what is being reported); although my heater is a heat pump, not just a coil of wire.


 

Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2635 on: December 28, 2018, 12:12:46 am »
Again, an EV is only as efficient as it's electricity source. It makes no sense to compare EV efficiency because electricity isn't a primary energy source. Electricity is just a way to transport energy.
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Offline free_electron

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2636 on: December 28, 2018, 01:05:27 am »
Again, an EV is only as efficient as it's electricity source. It makes no sense to compare EV efficiency because electricity isn't a primary energy source. Electricity is just a way to transport energy.

So if i charge my car from solar panels, which have about 30% efficiency converting light into charge,  my car is only 30% efficient ? 
I can't put my finger on it but, that can't be right ...
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Offline BrianHG

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2637 on: December 28, 2018, 01:07:36 am »
Baseline (vehicle at rest but powered up): 247 Wh = .74 mph
Defroster (rear window & side mirror heaters): 285 Wh = .86 mph
Steering Wheel Heater: 95 Wh = .29 mph
Heated Wipers & Nozzles: 95Wh = .29 mph
1 Seat Heater: 57 Wh = .17 mph
2 Seat Heaters: 1cabin reached 108 F quickly33 Wh = .40 mph
3 Seat Heaters: 171 Wh = .51 mph
4 Seat Heaters: 209 Wh = .63 mph
5 Seat Heaters: 247 Wh = .74 mph
HVAC at ‘HI’ or 82F (28C): 6.4 kWh = ~18..20 mph
HVAC at 74F (23C): 342 Wh = 1.03 mph


As for total 'idle' power consumption, my car with the heater on medium, on a cool (2C) day, the front and rear defroster, headlights etc, I've never seen more than about 1.5kW (or that's what is being reported); although my heater is a heat pump, not just a coil of wire.

Are these heater values continuous?
My car is usually warm and windows defrosted after 5-10 minutes, then the output of these devices are usually off except for the cabin heater occasionally pulsing on and off at around 10-15% duty cycle...
That is unless you drive with the windows open in the winter...

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Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2638 on: December 28, 2018, 01:11:49 am »
Again, an EV is only as efficient as it's electricity source. It makes no sense to compare EV efficiency because electricity isn't a primary energy source. Electricity is just a way to transport energy.
So if i charge my car from solar panels, which have about 30% efficiency converting light into charge,  my car is only 30% efficient ? 
I can't put my finger on it but, that can't be right ...
It is right by definition because only 30% of the input power ends up going into your car (and then subtract battery and drive train losses to get to the wheels). Oh and also take into account that every kWh from your solar panels releases several tens of grams of CO2 into the atmosphere due to the manufacturing process.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 01:15:25 am by nctnico »
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Offline apis

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2639 on: December 28, 2018, 01:37:02 am »
So if i charge my car from solar panels, which have about 30% efficiency converting light into charge,  my car is only 30% efficient ? 
I can't put my finger on it but, that can't be right ...
What matter isn't efficiency but pollution since that causes harm to humans and the environment, GhG emissions since it causes climate change, and also the cost of course. These factors are often correlated with efficiency, so better efficiency translates to better overall, but it might not be the most important parameter to look at.

Oh and also take into account that every kWh from your solar panels releases several tens of grams of CO2 into the atmosphere due to the manufacturing process.
It depends on how the PV cells are produced, if you used only renewable energy when producing them you could get that number down closer to zero. (And it's a lot better than the kg of CO2 per kWh you get from coal.)

Interestingly, old nuclear reactors can have a fuel efficiency that is only a few percent, they are still economical and produce very little waste since the energy contents of an atom nucleus is so enormous. Their CO2 contribution comes mainly from from the concrete used in the reactor building.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-cycle_greenhouse-gas_emissions_of_energy_sources
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 01:48:09 am by apis »
 

Offline fsr

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2640 on: December 28, 2018, 02:05:43 am »
Again, an EV is only as efficient as it's electricity source. It makes no sense to compare EV efficiency because electricity isn't a primary energy source. Electricity is just a way to transport energy.
So if i charge my car from solar panels, which have about 30% efficiency converting light into charge,  my car is only 30% efficient ? 
I can't put my finger on it but, that can't be right ...
It is right by definition because only 30% of the input power ends up going into your car (and then subtract battery and drive train losses to get to the wheels). Oh and also take into account that every kWh from your solar panels releases several tens of grams of CO2 into the atmosphere due to the manufacturing process.
But you need to manufacture the panels only once. And solar panels aren't the only kind of solar plant. And there are other kind of clean power plants.
But the important thing, is that producing electricity from solar energy, even if not by very efficient means won't get us killed. ICEs could be around 30% also (with some luck), and those things are driving climate change. When you fill your's car gas tank, roughly 1/3 of it will be used to move the car, and the other 2/3 will be used to heat the universe a little more (and 100% of it will release CO2 in the process which will heat our planet quite a lot). That's not very good.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 02:07:22 am by fsr »
 

Offline boffin

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2641 on: December 28, 2018, 02:14:42 am »
Again, an EV is only as efficient as it's electricity source. It makes no sense to compare EV efficiency because electricity isn't a primary energy source. Electricity is just a way to transport energy.

So if i charge my car from solar panels, which have about 30% efficiency converting light into charge,  my car is only 30% efficient ? 
I can't put my finger on it but, that can't be right ...

And apparently gathering and distilling crude oil, along with distribution is completely energy free !
 

Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2642 on: December 28, 2018, 10:18:22 am »
I am not sure how to interpret range reduction with units of speed (mph=miles per hour).

No no, it's not a speed, it's miles of range per hour with the aircon on: one hour at HI => 20 miles less of range.
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Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2643 on: December 28, 2018, 11:06:35 am »
HVAC at ‘HI’ or 82F (28C): 6.4 kWh = ~18..20 mph

As for total 'idle' power consumption, my car with the heater on medium, on a cool (2C) day, the front and rear defroster, headlights etc, I've never seen more than about 1.5kW (or that's what is being reported); although my heater is a heat pump, not just a coil of wire.

Yes Boffin, your figures to me always seem too good to be true :-) e.g. in this case, the tesla owner reports 6.4 kW and you only 1.5 kW. Hahaha.
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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2644 on: December 28, 2018, 11:55:49 am »
Couldn't a heater be integrated into the glass by adding a conductive layer similar to what's used for LCDs? That combined with making the glass double pane should be able to greatly cut down on the power needed to prevent the glass from fogging up.

Yes, electrically heated windshields are standard equipment on my EV (and a lot of other higher-end EV and ICE vehciles), and it works very very quickly.  I'd guess that the additional cost of the small wires embedded, adds a small amount to the total cost of the windshield, but it's a smallish number when compared to the labour and shipping costs of a windshield replacement.

Looking at the numbers that someone else posted, the ones in Green are EV only, the ones in red would equally apply to an EV or ICE vehicle as an ICE would have to generate the electricity.  This is the kind of annoying argument that pro-ICE people throw out, and never stop to think about; Electricity & Air Con are not free on an ICE vehicle, they cost hydrocarbons to generate/operate.  In fact I'd argue that the AC is likely more efficient on an EV because it's operating in a cooler environment and not surrounded by a very very hot engine mass.

Baseline (vehicle at rest but powered up): 247 Wh = .74 mph
Defroster (rear window & side mirror heaters): 285 Wh = .86 mph
Steering Wheel Heater: 95 Wh = .29 mph
Heated Wipers & Nozzles: 95Wh = .29 mph
1 Seat Heater: 57 Wh = .17 mph
2 Seat Heaters: 1cabin reached 108 F quickly33 Wh = .40 mph
3 Seat Heaters: 171 Wh = .51 mph
4 Seat Heaters: 209 Wh = .63 mph
5 Seat Heaters: 247 Wh = .74 mph
HVAC at ‘HI’ or 82F (28C): 6.4 kWh = ~18..20 mph
HVAC at 74F (23C): 342 Wh = 1.03 mph


As for total 'idle' power consumption, my car with the heater on medium, on a cool (2C) day, the front and rear defroster, headlights etc, I've never seen more than about 1.5kW (or that's what is being reported); although my heater is a heat pump, not just a coil of wire.

The ordinary car heater that keeps the interior of an ICE car warm is just waste heat from the engine which would otherwise be radiated outside.
OK, they do use a fan which needs a small amount of electricity.

Interestingly, back in the day, many cars in Australia were not fitted with heaters, as our Winters were regarded as too "mild" to require them.
My first car heater was an "after market" unit which did not use a fan, but thanks to the uncomplicated ventilation systems of the day was one of the most efficient ones I have encountered.

Air conditioning does, of course, use power which needs to be supplied ultimately by the engine, as do rear window heaters
 

Offline boffin

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2645 on: December 28, 2018, 04:13:36 pm »
HVAC at ‘HI’ or 82F (28C): 6.4 kWh = ~18..20 mph

As for total 'idle' power consumption, my car with the heater on medium, on a cool (2C) day, the front and rear defroster, headlights etc, I've never seen more than about 1.5kW (or that's what is being reported); although my heater is a heat pump, not just a coil of wire.

Yes Boffin, your figures to me always seem too good to be true :-) e.g. in this case, the tesla owner reports 6.4 kW and you only 1.5 kW. Hahaha.

How are my numbers different from the Tesla ones.  I said "Heater on Medium", front and rear defroster.  Looking at the Tesla numbers
Baseline (vehicle at rest but powered up): 247 Wh = .74 mph
Defroster (rear window & side mirror heaters): 285 Wh = .86 mph
1 Seat Heater: 57 Wh = .17 mph
HVAC at 74F (23C): 342 Wh = 1.03 mph


Add those numbers up and you're under 1kW, so how is my 1.5kW "too good to be true" ?
 

Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2646 on: December 28, 2018, 05:46:44 pm »
Add those numbers up and you're under 1kW, so how is my 1.5kW "too good to be true" ?

Because you said 2°C and when it's almost freezing outside nobody puts the heater in "medium".
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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2647 on: December 28, 2018, 05:48:03 pm »
Thanks for the clarification on the meaning of mph.  Lovely language we have where words have different meanings and now abbreviations/acronyms do also.

It is not surprising that running the air conditioner on a 72 degree F day has little effect on range.  In most cases I don't even turn it on under those conditions.  EVs will do fine in San Franscisco, Hawaii and other mild climates.  I'm sure that the numbers would be frightening in Phoenix or Aussie lands where temperatures of 105F (40C) are common for almost half the year.
 

Offline boffin

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2648 on: December 28, 2018, 06:13:55 pm »
Thanks for the clarification on the meaning of mph.  Lovely language we have where words have different meanings and now abbreviations/acronyms do also.

It is not surprising that running the air conditioner on a 72 degree F day has little effect on range.  In most cases I don't even turn it on under those conditions.  EVs will do fine in San Franscisco, Hawaii and other mild climates.  I'm sure that the numbers would be frightening in Phoenix or Aussie lands where temperatures of 105F (40C) are common for almost half the year.

I don't think it's quite the doom and gloom that people say, but I don't live in a jurisdiction where it hits 40C to give a real-world answer.  At 30ish during the summer, the AC never drew more than a 1kW on my car.

The AC to cool what is quite a small 'room' (3m x 2m - albeit with a lot of glass and badly insulated compared to a house) drawing 2kW (nearly 50% more than a wall plugin AC could draw at a home) is only a 11% penalty on a 18kWh/100km car.  Will it hurt, sure, will it destroy the range? no.  And that assumes the compressor is running 100% of the time and not cycling.  Also, the increase in energy consumption running the AC is identical EV or ICE, so in the context of the EV vs ICE argument, AC is a non-issue at all.

In the real world the AC in an EV is likely slightly more efficient vs an ICE AC; as it's not placed right next to a giant lump of very hot steel/aluminium.
 

Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2649 on: December 28, 2018, 07:46:17 pm »
Also, the increase in energy consumption running the AC is identical EV or ICE, so in the context of the EV vs ICE argument, AC is a non-issue at all.

6.4 kW is ~ 1/3 of the power needed to move the car, I wouldn't call it a non-issue, EVs (unlike ICEs) have an already poor range and this makes it even worse.

« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 07:56:27 pm by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
Even when the experts all agree, they may well be mistaken.
 


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