Author Topic: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?  (Read 197812 times)

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Offline Kjelt

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2775 on: January 04, 2019, 09:40:56 pm »
Waiting time for new ordered EVs have exceeded one year in our country.
Reason: huge shortage of batteries with the manufacturers.

I wonder what will happen if the battery has an issue and needs replacement.
A waiting time of one year?
 

Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2776 on: January 04, 2019, 10:03:14 pm »
Here is your open invitation to provide credible documentation to change our minds.
I'm sorry but there is no way to have a decent discussion with you. I tried to explain a few things (with references) several times and every time you get it wrong and/or make it look like I wrote things I never wrote. Enough is enough.


Why do you say I'me getting it wrong.  I'm just reading what what was in the links you posted and repeating what I read.  We've provided links for you and asked you questiosns which you have refused to answer.  In the links for the documents you've posted you appear to adding additional information that's not in the documents.  All we are doing is using Critial Thinking skills, you should do the same.

I invite you to re-read the documents you provided links to and you will see all the Dutch comapny is offering is a licence for EX Bale.  There is NOTHING in the documentation saying they are the ones converting bio-mass to bio-fuel.  That is somehting the American companies are doing and have been doing.

You seem to think cane sugar can grow in Europe as it does in Brazil.  If what you are saying is true there would have been no sugar/slave trade hundreds of years ago.
Please stop making a fool out of yourself for your own sake.  :popcorn: I never wrote anything remotely resembling your ramblings!  :palm:
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2777 on: January 04, 2019, 10:33:07 pm »
Here is your open invitation to provide credible documentation to change our minds.
I'm sorry but there is no way to have a decent discussion with you. I tried to explain a few things (with references) several times and every time you get it wrong and/or make it look like I wrote things I never wrote. Enough is enough.


Why do you say I'me getting it wrong.  I'm just reading what what was in the links you posted and repeating what I read.  We've provided links for you and asked you questiosns which you have refused to answer.  In the links for the documents you've posted you appear to adding additional information that's not in the documents.  All we are doing is using Critial Thinking skills, you should do the same.

I invite you to re-read the documents you provided links to and you will see all the Dutch comapny is offering is a licence for EX Bale.  There is NOTHING in the documentation saying they are the ones converting bio-mass to bio-fuel.  That is somehting the American companies are doing and have been doing.

You seem to think cane sugar can grow in Europe as it does in Brazil.  If what you are saying is true there would have been no sugar/slave trade hundreds of years ago.
Please stop making a fool out of yourself for your own sake.  :popcorn: I never wrote anything remotely resembling your ramblings!  :palm:

So follow the scientific method and present your scientific evidence.   Marketing materials like religious propaganda don’t count.  The opportunity is yours.
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2778 on: January 04, 2019, 10:52:52 pm »
sugar cane is a pest. talk to the people in Maui .... they are all too happy they finally stopped farming that stuff..
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Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2779 on: January 04, 2019, 11:13:32 pm »
sugar cane is a pest. talk to the people in Maui .... they are all too happy they finally stopped farming that stuff..

Agreed.  But to be fair it's powering cars in Brazil and has been for 40 years.  The original poster on bio-fuels was trying to say this would work in Europe and the United States without realizing sugar cane wouldn't grow in Europe and most of the United States.  But he still insists it would work and that a Dutch compnay is doing it.  As as been pointed out by many posters he's wrong.



 

Offline fsr

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2780 on: January 05, 2019, 12:06:41 am »
So, for a BEV as a citycar, it's basically a matter of:
  • Cost: but products usually get cheaper when manufactured in large amounts. Would the prices of BEVs get lower with larger production?
  • Green electricity generation: it's more like a general issue than an EV issue. We should be lowering our carbon footprint anyways. Still, big engines have better efficiency than small engines.
  • Grid capacity: for the demand of BEVs charging over-night in every house, plus daytime charging at the stations. This would need to be upgraded as more BEVs are sold, because of the increasing electricity demand.

For long-range travel, you need to add the issue of the charging stations, and the charging time. But in 30 minutes you can get substantial charge into a BEV, as the slow part of the charge is when the battery is over around 80%.

Look at this, interesting for an hybrid with a turbine engine. Less weight and the same efficiency than the best ICEs: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/green-cars/deltas-micro-turbine-range-extender-will-make-production-2019-model

Why Tesla receives such criticism in the videos?
 

Offline ahbushnell

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2781 on: January 05, 2019, 01:13:55 am »
Here is your open invitation to provide credible documentation to change our minds.
I'm sorry but there is no way to have a decent discussion with you. I tried to explain a few things (with references) several times and every time you get it wrong and/or make it look like I wrote things I never wrote. Enough is enough.


Why do you say I'me getting it wrong.  I'm just reading what what was in the links you posted and repeating what I read.  We've provided links for you and asked you questiosns which you have refused to answer.  In the links for the documents you've posted you appear to adding additional information that's not in the documents.  All we are doing is using Critial Thinking skills, you should do the same.

I invite you to re-read the documents you provided links to and you will see all the Dutch comapny is offering is a licence for EX Bale.  There is NOTHING in the documentation saying they are the ones converting bio-mass to bio-fuel.  That is somehting the American companies are doing and have been doing.

You seem to think cane sugar can grow in Europe as it does in Brazil.  If what you are saying is true there would have been no sugar/slave trade hundreds of years ago.
Please stop making a fool out of yourself for your own sake.  :popcorn: I never wrote anything remotely resembling your ramblings!  :palm:

So follow the scientific method and present your scientific evidence.   Marketing materials like religious propaganda don’t count.  The opportunity is yours.
I suggest both of you just stop. 
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2782 on: January 05, 2019, 01:14:20 am »
So, for a BEV as a citycar, it's basically a matter of:
  • Cost: but products usually get cheaper when manufactured in large amounts. Would the prices of BEVs get lower with larger production?
  • Green electricity generation: it's more like a general issue than an EV issue. We should be lowering our carbon footprint anyways. Still, big engines have better efficiency than small engines.
  • Grid capacity: for the demand of BEVs charging over-night in every house, plus daytime charging at the stations. This would need to be upgraded as more BEVs are sold, because of the increasing electricity demand.

For long-range travel, you need to add the issue of the charging stations, and the charging time. But in 30 minutes you can get substantial charge into a BEV, as the slow part of the charge is when the battery is over around 80%.

Look at this, interesting for an hybrid with a turbine engine. Less weight and the same efficiency than the best ICEs: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/green-cars/deltas-micro-turbine-range-extender-will-make-production-2019-model

Why Tesla receives such criticism in the videos?

Reason Tesla receives such criticism is because it's an experiment in progress.  The other is the crazy claims Elon makes.  A BEV semi-truck which can travel 800 miles between charges.  He is correct, but the truck couldn't haul anything as all of the cargo space would be filled with batteries.

But when it comes to his cars, people are sure buying them.  And the market cap of his company is 10 times that of Ford.  Analysists keep insisting he's going bankrupt, yet every time Elon has proved them wrong.  Got to give credit where credit is due.

As for EVs did you see the video comparing Hybrids, BEVs and PHEVs?  While BEVs may sound ideal, economically they are a terrible deal for the consumer.  I think the breakeven between and ICE and BEV is 200,000 km.  What’s interesting is the proven reliability and safety of the battery technology used in EVs. 


https://youtu.be/5RDQj276EhI



 

Offline boffin

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2783 on: January 05, 2019, 06:40:46 am »
Why Tesla receives such criticism in the videos?

Because Telsa concentrate on only one part of the business.  Their after-sale and parts available (and used Tesla purchase programs) are utter and complete crap.  You can find dozens and dozens of people waiting months for simple parts, or in this case, the purchase of a used certified pre-owned Tesla that has taken 2+ months and counting (and this to a guy who has a big Tesla following)

The lack of dealing with the rest of the business will be Tesla's downfall.


 
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Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2784 on: January 05, 2019, 10:09:44 am »
Hey Boffin, in snafu.ca you have some typos:

Quote
[...]
35kWh battery, approx 225km range.
100kW (134hp) electric motor and 214 ft-lbs of torque
14 kWh / 100km power consumption.
That’s at C$0.085/kWh or $1.19 for 100km; or about 0.8 litre / 100km with local gas prices
[...]

1) 35[kWh]/225[km] is 15.5 kWh/100km not 14.
2) kWh is a unit of energy not power.

In this page:
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1103654_volkswagen-e-golf-real-world-range-vs-epa-estimates-over-six-month-test/page-2
they say the trip computer shows (after six months) an average of 3.7 miles per kWh, that's 100/(3.7*1.60934)= 16.8 kWh/100km (20% more than your figures), that corrected for out-of-the-wall-plug-energy is around 16.8/0.85= 19.7 kWh/100km (41% more than your figures)

It also says "At the approximately 14 cents per kilowatt hour that we pay in Portland, Oregon", but your figure for that is another unbelievably good C$0.085 = US$0.06 or less than half as much (does electricity in the USA really cost 233% more than yours?)

Here: https://www.gasbuddy.com/CAN
It says the price per litre of gasoline in Canada goes from C$0.91 to C$1.24, the average of which is 1.08 so $1.19/1.08= 1.1 litres (which is 37% more than what you say).

If we put in all the other sites' numbers and do the math again:

19.7[kWh/100km]*0.14[US$/kWh]= 2.75 [US$/100km] = 3.67 [C$/100km]
3.67/1.08= 3.4 litres of gasoline/100 km

The picture is a completely different one, isn't it?

Your numbers always seem too good to be true.
http://brave.com <- THE BEST BROWSER
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2785 on: January 05, 2019, 10:41:07 am »
Why Tesla receives such criticism in the videos?

Because Telsa concentrate on only one part of the business.  Their after-sale and parts available (and used Tesla purchase programs) are utter and complete crap.  You can find dozens and dozens of people waiting months for simple parts, or in this case, the purchase of a used certified pre-owned Tesla that has taken 2+ months and counting (and this to a guy who has a big Tesla following)

The lack of dealing with the rest of the business will be Tesla's downfall.



Correct me if I am wrong but isn’t Tesla in the business of selling new cars?  From what I understand they are doing well.  Consumers are buying the cars and are very pleased.  Tesla’s market cap is o the order of 10 times greater of that than Ford Do apparently there are a lot of people who do not agree with you or the guy in the video.

Tesla is an experiment unfolding.  DISRUPTON is what this generation is all about.  Elon did that with the banking industry and PayPal.  Let’s go I’ve credit where credit is due.  But look at how he has sucessfully disrupted the car industry.  Like the guy or his car company one thing is for sure he disrupted the car industry.  Give the guy credit for doiing so. 

Will Tesla cars succeed?  Who knows.  But for the last 10 years or expert analysts have been saying Tesla Motors will fail and go bankrupt.  So far all of those “experts” have been wrong. 

The thing Tesla has going for it is the economy is doing well and there are a lot of people with money who are willing on spending it on technology company that makes cars good which they beleive are good for the planet.  These people do not buy used cars, they sell them.

Just look at the guy in the video.  He want’s a Tesla so bad he’s willing to put money down on a used Tesla without even seeing pictures of the car or even knowing when he can take delivery of the car.

Tell me one other car company that can do the same?

So far the Tesla Motors experiment is working, they are still in business.  They are also the model com[any Ford and other companies want to become.  So if Tesla Motors is the company Ford want’s to become isn’t Tesla a huge success so far?
 

Offline fsr

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2786 on: January 05, 2019, 04:13:52 pm »
So, for a BEV as a citycar, it's basically a matter of:
  • Cost: but products usually get cheaper when manufactured in large amounts. Would the prices of BEVs get lower with larger production?
  • Green electricity generation: it's more like a general issue than an EV issue. We should be lowering our carbon footprint anyways. Still, big engines have better efficiency than small engines.
  • Grid capacity: for the demand of BEVs charging over-night in every house, plus daytime charging at the stations. This would need to be upgraded as more BEVs are sold, because of the increasing electricity demand.

For long-range travel, you need to add the issue of the charging stations, and the charging time. But in 30 minutes you can get substantial charge into a BEV, as the slow part of the charge is when the battery is over around 80%.

Look at this, interesting for an hybrid with a turbine engine. Less weight and the same efficiency than the best ICEs: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/green-cars/deltas-micro-turbine-range-extender-will-make-production-2019-model

Why Tesla receives such criticism in the videos?

Reason Tesla receives such criticism is because it's an experiment in progress.  The other is the crazy claims Elon makes.  A BEV semi-truck which can travel 800 miles between charges.  He is correct, but the truck couldn't haul anything as all of the cargo space would be filled with batteries.

But when it comes to his cars, people are sure buying them.  And the market cap of his company is 10 times that of Ford.  Analysists keep insisting he's going bankrupt, yet every time Elon has proved them wrong.  Got to give credit where credit is due.

As for EVs did you see the video comparing Hybrids, BEVs and PHEVs?  While BEVs may sound ideal, economically they are a terrible deal for the consumer.  I think the breakeven between and ICE and BEV is 200,000 km.  What’s interesting is the proven reliability and safety of the battery technology used in EVs. 


https://youtu.be/5RDQj276EhI
Yes, i have seen the video, but remember that at some point in the past, only the rich could buy a car with air conditioning, or if you go back enough, even a car.
Now, imagine if cars with A/C had greatly reduced range, took more time to charge, and required different charging stations.
This is not going to happen overnight, that's for sure. But maybe, we will get to the point where they're cost-effective for most of us.
 

Offline boffin

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2787 on: January 05, 2019, 05:32:58 pm »
Hey Boffin, in snafu.ca you have some typos:

Quote
[...]
35kWh battery, approx 225km range.
100kW (134hp) electric motor and 214 ft-lbs of torque
14 kWh / 100km power consumption.
That’s at C$0.085/kWh or $1.19 for 100km; or about 0.8 litre / 100km with local gas prices
[...]

1) 35[kWh]/225[km] is 15.5 kWh/100km not 14.
2) kWh is a unit of energy not power.

In this page:
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1103654_volkswagen-e-golf-real-world-range-vs-epa-estimates-over-six-month-test/page-2
they say the trip computer shows (after six months) an average of 3.7 miles per kWh, that's 100/(3.7*1.60934)= 16.8 kWh/100km (20% more than your figures), that corrected for out-of-the-wall-plug-energy is around 16.8/0.85= 19.7 kWh/100km (41% more than your figures)

It also says "At the approximately 14 cents per kilowatt hour that we pay in Portland, Oregon", but your figure for that is another unbelievably good C$0.085 = US$0.06 or less than half as much (does electricity in the USA really cost 233% more than yours?)

Here: https://www.gasbuddy.com/CAN
It says the price per litre of gasoline in Canada goes from C$0.91 to C$1.24, the average of which is 1.08 so $1.19/1.08= 1.1 litres (which is 37% more than what you say).

If we put in all the other sites' numbers and do the math again:

19.7[kWh/100km]*0.14[US$/kWh]= 2.75 [US$/100km] = 3.67 [C$/100km]
3.67/1.08= 3.4 litres of gasoline/100 km

The picture is a completely different one, isn't it?

Your numbers always seem too good to be true.

You're right in that my division number was incorrect, and I posted those numbers shortly after getting the car.  Fixed.

As for actual consumption (from the wall), I see between 17-19kWh/100km depending on the weather. It was as low as 16 when we got the car in May as it required neither heating nor air conditioning.

Yes, electricity is that cheap here.
C$0.085/kWh.  This part of the country has a lot of (cheap/green) hydro electric power, and results in those rates. https://app.bchydro.com/accounts-billing/rates-energy-use/electricity-rates/residential-rates.html

Yes, gasoline is that expensive here.
Metro Vancouver has some of the highest gasoline prices in North America, and a quick look on gas buddy this morning shows C$1.349 as the most common price for the area.   ref: https://www.gasbuddy.com/home?search=vancouver&fuel=1  Back when that was originally published (June) the average price of gasoline was in the 1.499 -> 1.549 range.  As the price of oil has dropped over the last year, so has the retail price of gasoline.  Price of oil (WTI/bbl) has dropped from the mid US$60 range, down to US$45 today (called "we're slightly sorry for killing that journalist pricing, maybe this will make you forget about it" pricing)

If you include sales tax,which I didn't in my original calculation, and wall consumption as opposed to vehicle reported consumption, which brings the numbers to 9.1c/kWh and 18kWh/100km, you end up with
18 * 0.091 = $1.638/100km, or about 1.2l/100km.

To sum up your post, if you take incorrect electricity pricing, and incorrect gasoline pricing and apply it to my vehicle, the numbers are wildly incorrect
However it's interesting to note that even with your completely ridiculous numbers, it's swill half of the price of the 7litre/100km ICE version.


« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 05:59:27 pm by boffin »
 

Offline boffin

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2788 on: January 05, 2019, 05:56:09 pm »
Correct me if I am wrong but isn’t Tesla in the business of selling new cars?  From what I understand they are doing well.  Consumers are buying the cars and are very pleased. 

Not all customers.  When something goes wrong with a Tesla, it goes wrong in a big way, as their ability to provide parts/repair has been an issue all along.

Quote
Tesla is an experiment unfolding.  DISRUPTON is what this generation is all about.  Elon did that with the banking industry and PayPal.  Let’s go I’ve credit where credit is due.  But look at how he has sucessfully disrupted the car industry.  Like the guy or his car company one thing is for sure he disrupted the car industry.  Give the guy credit for doiing so. 
Making money is what it's all about.  Tesla has done well on producing an amazing powertrain, and getting vast amounts of hype; which has propelled the company along.  Now that they have to survive more on making cars and less on hype, let's see how it goes.

Quote
Will Tesla cars succeed?  Who knows.  But for the last 10 years or expert analysts have been saying Tesla Motors will fail and go bankrupt.  So far all of those “experts” have been wrong. 
I think they will partly succeed.  I would expect them to exit the car business and stick to the powertrain business. I'd expect "Powered by Tesla" in the same way that Chrysler use Cummins powertrains in some of their trucks.

Quote
Just look at the guy in the video.  He want’s a Tesla so bad he’s willing to put money down on a used Tesla without even seeing pictures of the car or even knowing when he can take delivery of the car.
He needs a Tesla X (he already owns a bunch of others, that he's rebuilt, watch his videos), so he can test-fit aftermarket parts that he wants to make, because Tesla is so pitiful at the parts market.

Correct me if I am wrong but isn’t Tesla in the business of selling new cars?  From what I understand they are doing well.  Consumers are buying the cars and are very pleased. 
and circling back to your original question, the answer is essentially NO.  Tesla can't just be in the business of selling new, they also need to be in the business of building, selling used (trade ins) and selling parts/service; or they'll get crushed by the rest of the companies that provide full service.


 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2789 on: January 05, 2019, 06:15:31 pm »
You make several very good points.

Correct me if I am wrong but isn’t Tesla in the business of selling new cars?  From what I understand they are doing well.  Consumers are buying the cars and are very pleased. 
and circling back to your original question, the answer is essentially NO.  Tesla can't just be in the business of selling new, they also need to be in the business of building, selling used (trade ins) and selling parts/service; or they'll get crushed by the rest of the companies that provide full service.
[/quote]

Couldn’t Tesla just remain in and focus on the new car business and allow 3rd party companies to license the manufacture of repalcement and aftermarket parts?  To a certain degree isn’t this what the big car companies are doing But no licensing is involved.

Out of curiosity any idea how many Tesla cars have been sold?  The Australian guy in the videos gives sales figures at the 1,000 cars for the well known ICE car company.  Sounds crazy low to me which is why I’m asking.  I suspect there are only a handful of Teslas in Australia.  But I don’t know which is why I am asking.

 

Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2790 on: January 05, 2019, 06:28:09 pm »
Correct me if I am wrong but isn’t Tesla in the business of selling new cars?  From what I understand they are doing well.  Consumers are buying the cars and are very pleased. 
and circling back to your original question, the answer is essentially NO.  Tesla can't just be in the business of selling new, they also need to be in the business of building, selling used (trade ins) and selling parts/service; or they'll get crushed by the rest of the companies that provide full service.
Tell me which car manufacturers are in the business of selling used cars? AFAIK none. Sure some dealerships sell used vehicles and they (usually) are happy to service any car from the brand they represent but dealers are independant companies.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline boffin

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2791 on: January 05, 2019, 06:51:57 pm »
Correct me if I am wrong but isn’t Tesla in the business of selling new cars?  From what I understand they are doing well.  Consumers are buying the cars and are very pleased. 
and circling back to your original question, the answer is essentially NO.  Tesla can't just be in the business of selling new, they also need to be in the business of building, selling used (trade ins) and selling parts/service; or they'll get crushed by the rest of the companies that provide full service.
Tell me which car manufacturers are in the business of selling used cars? AFAIK none. Sure some dealerships sell used vehicles and they (usually) are happy to service any car from the brand they represent but dealers are independant companies.

All of them have 'Certified Pre-Owned' programs of some sort.  Here's your 'none' (aka what you'd like to believe) versus reality
https://usedvehicles.vwmodels.ca/search/
https://www.mercedes-benz.ca/en/cpo
https://www.toyota.ca/toyota/en/vehicles/certified-used
https://www.hondacertified.com/
https://www.ford.ca/certified-used/
https://www.usedcars.peugeot.co.uk/
http://www.certifiedpreowned.chrysler.com/

even Tesla (except they're really really bad at it -- see linked video)

 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2792 on: January 05, 2019, 07:22:32 pm »
[...]
Yes, electricity is that cheap here.
C$0.085/kWh.  This part of the country has a lot of (cheap/green) hydro electric power, and results in those rates. https://app.bchydro.com/accounts-billing/rates-energy-use/electricity-rates/residential-rates.html
[...]
If you include sales tax,which I didn't in my original calculation, and wall consumption as opposed to vehicle reported consumption, which brings the numbers to 9.1c/kWh and 18kWh/100km, you end up with
18 * 0.091 = $1.638/100km, or about 1.2l/100km.

Boffin, in that link the absolute minimum price for the so called "step 1" is C$0.0884 per kWh + 5% + taxes which even before taxes is already more than your shiny new recalculated rate of C$0.091/kWh, look: 0.0884*1.05= C$0.09282 before taxes.

Are these https://www.thoughtco.com/canadian-sales-tax-rates-510599 the taxes?

If so, then for BC C$0.09282+5%(GST/VAT)+7%(PST) is C$0.09282*1.12= C$0.104 and there you go, your numbers are way off again by 14.2%.

And the step 2 prices are $0.1326+5% before taxes...
http://brave.com <- THE BEST BROWSER
 

Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2793 on: January 05, 2019, 07:39:28 pm »
Correct me if I am wrong but isn’t Tesla in the business of selling new cars?  From what I understand they are doing well.  Consumers are buying the cars and are very pleased. 
and circling back to your original question, the answer is essentially NO.  Tesla can't just be in the business of selling new, they also need to be in the business of building, selling used (trade ins) and selling parts/service; or they'll get crushed by the rest of the companies that provide full service.
Tell me which car manufacturers are in the business of selling used cars? AFAIK none. Sure some dealerships sell used vehicles and they (usually) are happy to service any car from the brand they represent but dealers are independant companies.

All of them have 'Certified Pre-Owned' programs of some sort.  Here's your 'none' (aka what you'd like to believe) versus reality
https://usedvehicles.vwmodels.ca/search/
https://www.mercedes-benz.ca/en/cpo
https://www.toyota.ca/toyota/en/vehicles/certified-used
https://www.hondacertified.com/
https://www.ford.ca/certified-used/
https://www.usedcars.peugeot.co.uk/
http://www.certifiedpreowned.chrysler.com/

even Tesla (except they're really really bad at it -- see linked video)
But these are all programs executed by the dealers. Not the manufacturers! After all they are not shipping cars back to the manufacturer to have a car checked and/or refurbished. The reasons Tesla doesn't do this because (AFAIK) Tesla mostly does direct sales without a dealer network.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 07:42:31 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline boffin

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2794 on: January 05, 2019, 09:01:34 pm »
[...]
Yes, electricity is that cheap here.
C$0.085/kWh.  This part of the country has a lot of (cheap/green) hydro electric power, and results in those rates. https://app.bchydro.com/accounts-billing/rates-energy-use/electricity-rates/residential-rates.html
[...]
If you include sales tax,which I didn't in my original calculation, and wall consumption as opposed to vehicle reported consumption, which brings the numbers to 9.1c/kWh and 18kWh/100km, you end up with
18 * 0.091 = $1.638/100km, or about 1.2l/100km.

Boffin, in that link the absolute minimum price for the so called "step 1" is C$0.0884 per kWh + 5% + taxes which even before taxes is already more than your shiny new recalculated rate of C$0.091/kWh, look: 0.0884*1.05= C$0.09282 before taxes.

Are these https://www.thoughtco.com/canadian-sales-tax-rates-510599 the taxes?

If so, then for BC C$0.09282+5%(GST/VAT)+7%(PST) is C$0.09282*1.12= C$0.104 and there you go, your numbers are way off again by 14.2%.

And the step 2 prices are $0.1326+5% before taxes...

You're right, the rate did go up from 0.085 to 0.088 during the summer (after I wrote that article) which I hadn't taken into account, and I did fail to include the 5% rate rider, however, we don't pay PST on electricity, so in reality I'm paying ..
0.0884 * 1.05 * 1.05 = about C$0.0975/kWh.   7% more than I had originally said; when you account for it all.

However, that's still half the price that you invented for me, of US$0.14/kWh (C$0.1866).  and you're claiming my numbers are complete bunk... <sigh>  You guys will never learn.

 

Offline boffin

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2795 on: January 05, 2019, 09:03:09 pm »
Correct me if I am wrong but isn’t Tesla in the business of selling new cars?  From what I understand they are doing well.  Consumers are buying the cars and are very pleased. 
and circling back to your original question, the answer is essentially NO.  Tesla can't just be in the business of selling new, they also need to be in the business of building, selling used (trade ins) and selling parts/service; or they'll get crushed by the rest of the companies that provide full service.
Tell me which car manufacturers are in the business of selling used cars? AFAIK none. Sure some dealerships sell used vehicles and they (usually) are happy to service any car from the brand they represent but dealers are independant companies.

All of them have 'Certified Pre-Owned' programs of some sort.  Here's your 'none' (aka what you'd like to believe) versus reality
https://usedvehicles.vwmodels.ca/search/
https://www.mercedes-benz.ca/en/cpo
https://www.toyota.ca/toyota/en/vehicles/certified-used
https://www.hondacertified.com/
https://www.ford.ca/certified-used/
https://www.usedcars.peugeot.co.uk/
http://www.certifiedpreowned.chrysler.com/

even Tesla (except they're really really bad at it -- see linked video)
But these are all programs executed by the dealers. Not the manufacturers! After all they are not shipping cars back to the manufacturer to have a car checked and/or refurbished. The reasons Tesla doesn't do this because (AFAIK) Tesla mostly does direct sales without a dealer network.

These are all MANUFACTURER warranty programs, along with manufacturer based advertising, it's not the dealers doing this independently.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2796 on: January 05, 2019, 09:12:30 pm »
No, but it is like a franchise chain having an identical look and shared marketing department. For example: most McDonalds restaurants are not owned by McDonalds but are franchises. They use the marketing materials and offer the promotions put together by McDonalds.

When it comes to warranty most manufacturers have some kind of extended warranty but depending on where you are the dealer is the (legal) party offering the warranty to the consumer.

Again: the manufacturers are not doing anything with used cars. They just put the promotional material together so their dealers can appear as if they offer added value compared to the generic car shop around the corner. The manufacturers would rather have people buying new cars but it helps if people shop at their dealers so people don't look at other brands. It also has helped car dealers a bit to generate extra revenue during the last financial crisis.

BTW: so called manufacturer warranty repairs & recalls are often paid partly by the dealer as well. All part of the business model but it is not like the dealer gets paid 100% by the manufacturer for time spend on fixing a design flaw.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 09:55:23 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2797 on: January 05, 2019, 10:01:02 pm »
Correct me if I am wrong but isn’t Tesla in the business of selling new cars?  From what I understand they are doing well.  Consumers are buying the cars and are very pleased. 
and circling back to your original question, the answer is essentially NO.  Tesla can't just be in the business of selling new, they also need to be in the business of building, selling used (trade ins) and selling parts/service; or they'll get crushed by the rest of the companies that provide full service.
Tell me which car manufacturers are in the business of selling used cars? AFAIK none. Sure some dealerships sell used vehicles and they (usually) are happy to service any car from the brand they represent but dealers are independant companies.

All of them have 'Certified Pre-Owned' programs of some sort.  Here's your 'none' (aka what you'd like to believe) versus reality
https://usedvehicles.vwmodels.ca/search/
https://www.mercedes-benz.ca/en/cpo
https://www.toyota.ca/toyota/en/vehicles/certified-used
https://www.hondacertified.com/
https://www.ford.ca/certified-used/
https://www.usedcars.peugeot.co.uk/
http://www.certifiedpreowned.chrysler.com/

even Tesla (except they're really really bad at it -- see linked video)
But these are all programs executed by the dealers. Not the manufacturers! After all they are not shipping cars back to the manufacturer to have a car checked and/or refurbished. The reasons Tesla doesn't do this because (AFAIK) Tesla mostly does direct sales without a dealer network.

These are all MANUFACTURER warranty programs, along with manufacturer based advertising, it's not the dealers doing this independently.

I susspect this is something the manufacturer does to get people to buy née cars/. I highly doubt the car manufacturer pays for the repairs, they only coordinate the program for the dealers.  Repairs are probably handled through some third party repair insurance company. 

Don’t y9u think a new car company would want to sell new cars where they make the most money?  I high;y doubt they would wan to mess around with used cars and all f the problems that go along with them.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2798 on: January 05, 2019, 10:39:51 pm »
I suspect this is something the manufacturer does to get people to buy née cars/. I highly doubt the car manufacturer pays for the repairs, they only coordinate the program for the dealers.  Repairs are probably handled through some third party repair insurance company. 

Don’t you think a new car company would want to sell new cars where they make the most money?  I high;y doubt they would wan to mess around with used cars and all f the problems that go along with them.
To sell new cars manufacturers have to ensure a good market for the cars traded in. This means most car makers work to keep up the residual value of vehicles coming off lease and other finance schemes. They have schemes to ensure good warranty and finance arrangements are available for those traded in cars. Remember that a huge percentage of new cars and cars after their first trade in are financed by arms or associates of the manufacturer. This finance is often the most profitable part of the manufacturer's business. This is why many dealers aren't that keen on talking to cash customers.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2799 on: January 05, 2019, 11:38:56 pm »
I suspect this is something the manufacturer does to get people to buy née cars/. I highly doubt the car manufacturer pays for the repairs, they only coordinate the program for the dealers.  Repairs are probably handled through some third party repair insurance company. 

Don’t you think a new car company would want to sell new cars where they make the most money?  I high;y doubt they would wan to mess around with used cars and all f the problems that go along with them.
To sell new cars manufacturers have to ensure a good market for the cars traded in. This means most car makers work to keep up the residual value of vehicles coming off lease and other finance schemes. They have schemes to ensure good warranty and finance arrangements are available for those traded in cars. Remember that a huge percentage of new cars and cars after their first trade in are financed by arms or associates of the manufacturer. This finance is often the most profitable part of the manufacturer's business. This is why many dealers aren't that keen on talking to cash customers.


Yes, that is how all car companies have done it in the past.  But Tesla is all about DISRUPTION.  They have no existing customers.  People who are buying Tesla Motor cars are wealthy and doing what they think is good to disrupt the auto industry and for the planet and people's health.
Tesla makes their money when someone buys a new car, not when someone buys are used one.  (Isn't that true for all car companies?)  And aren't cars the "new" computers and cell phones?  Every 3 or 4 years the vast majority of people get a new computer or cell phone.  Tesla is a Technology company, so they are expecting people to buy a new car every 3-10 years.  And if the battery life is 10 years isn't that what people are going to do?  Who will want a 10-year-old EV with batteries that have detreated to a range of say 10 miles?
Just as cell phone and computer manufactures are making products where parts can’t easily be replaced isn’t Tesla and the other car companies doing the same thing?  They just don’t trust their mechanics even their factory trained ones to fix cars properly.   I have a Chevy Equinox I purchased new.  And twice within 60,000 miles Chevy replaced the entire engine because something like a $100 part needed to be replaced.  It’s more economical for the car companies to install a new engine and have a “happy customer” than have a tech at a dealership which can’t assemble the engine to factory specs.  Look isn’t this exactly what Apple is doing?  I’ve a problem with a MacBook pro.  Apple tried to fix it once maybe twice and then would up be giving me a brand-new computer.  And for that matter think about it, would you want to buy a used laptop or cellphone with a 3-year-old battery and an operating system which can not be upgraded?  Just means you are buying into old technology that’s worn out.  There’s a reason most people aren’t driving around in a 20-year-old or more car.  It pollutes more, is not as safe, and has outdated technology, (can’t pair with your cell phone, no lane change warning, no emergency breaking, no back-up camera, etc.) 

Cars like TVs, computers, cell phones and most other technology is disposable and recycled.  Isn’t that the future for cars as well?  And what happens if we ever get driverless cars?
Tesla is all about disruption in the car industry.  Give Elon credit as he has accomplished it.




 

 


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