Author Topic: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?  (Read 162941 times)

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Offline george80

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3275 on: February 13, 2019, 12:37:10 am »
Look at that, electric cars are cheaper to buy/operate... including the Netherlands...
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/feb/12/electric-cars-already-cheaper-own-run-study

Yes, Look at that, Another media article held out as proof of something done by a biased organisation that do not show how their figures were derived.
Worth less than the electrons used to publish it.
Show me the numbers and calculations if these reports are to be believed.  They could say anything if you cherry pick the conclusions.
Maybe EV's are cheaper to run in Europe but because they are not here and I have to the calcs, I'll need to see their numbers to be convinced of that.

It's not automatically dismissing something I don't want to believe, it's a case of not providing enough info to prove I might be wrong.

I have crunched the numbers before and just in running costs to travel  any distance over 1500 Km which is where the free charging amount ran out, the tesla WAS more expensive.  Maybe they saw where I had shown that on various forums. They seem to have taken their cost Milage comparison off the site now.
Was pretty obvious. using their figures which were surprisingly accurate as to fuel and electricity costs here, once you took away the free charge factor or calculated on the 2nd 1500 KM, they came out more exy.

Of course that dosent take into account the cost and repayments/ interest of a $120K car here as against a very comparable ICE you could get for half that or less.
$60 K still buys a lot of fuel and servicing.

I was reading yesterday where some in the industry are saying that EV's will achieve price parity with ICE's by 2025.
We'll wait and see if that comes off, sounds like complete and utter BS to me but in any case, it just means the EV you buy today is going to loose a shipload of resale value in 5 years time which would be another factor to enter in to the equation and a damn good reason not to rush into an EV for a while yet.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 12:40:01 am by george80 »
 

Offline george80

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3276 on: February 13, 2019, 12:52:44 am »
I think the gubbermints as you say want to try to force us to trash all our ICEs asap and buy again new cars everybody. That's lots in taxes and fees and macro economy figures which is good for them and bad for us and our pockets.

That is it.

Keep the money going round so you can siphon off as much as possible ever circuit and then pass the debt onto the next lot of snakes in Gubbermint for them to sort out and answer where do the money go.

It's going to be a HUGE cash cow .... maybe.

One other thing not often taken into account, the oil industry.
I can't see these Sheiks and Billionaires letting their gravy train go dry and crusty, they WILL fight back.
The way I see them doing it is LOWERING  the cost of fuel.  It's largely artificially inflated now.  They drop the cost and the price of fuel goes down and the EV's wont be as attractive as they are pushing.

The flip side of that is Gubbermints will counter with higher taxes but maybe that won't be so easy in the case of france if not other places.  helping the oil industry will be the rising cost of power.  Despite the green do gooders endless claims of RE making power cheaper, that has been demonstrably  proven to be completely false and  LIE  around the world so far.  Now way it's going to get cheaper for a long time yet if ever with teh capital investment costs to be recovered for a start.

If EV's loose their kingpin pspin doctored advantage of being cheaper to run, a lot of people are going to stick with what they know. They won't want to risk running out of power on longer journeys with no where to recharge, they won't want to have to sit round waiting every few hours, They won't even consider an EV if they want to tow anything.....

There are a lot of factors in the success of this EV change over but I see the critical ones as being the cost of oil and power.
One has the potential to go down very easily, the other can only go up for a while to come yet. That is surely going to happen as demand for power which is in short supply in a lot of places now becomes even greater through natural growth and the added loads of the EV fleet.
 

Offline george80

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3277 on: February 13, 2019, 01:15:29 am »
Was thinking along the same lines after hearing these nuts talk about powering buildings with EVs

That aside.  I own said battery pack and its got a limited number of cycles and the most expensive component to replace.  What incentive is there for me to sign up for this nonsense and wear the piss out of my battery?

This is another example of the green washed going overboard with crap in their gut busting efforts to shove this down everyones throats.

They say if you can't charge at home, there will be places to charge at work. OK.
Then they say the power in the cars could power the building.  WTF?
Again they are trying to defy physics in using the power twice.  You can't recharge AND use the power at the same time, not if you want anything left at the end that is!

So you go home on a limited charge and have to charge up to get back to work.  You plug in and where will the power come from? No solar input at night so you are left with the pissy amount of wind in most places. OK if you are in Norway where they are 100% hydro but that's a one off pretty much. the rest of the wold is still 80% Coal so what have you achieved... other than to make the off peak periods now the Peak pricing if nothing else.  Still going to be big demand but a much less available supply from solar.

These green religion preachers need to get their stories straight and put a bit of logic into them. They are laughably flawed and stupid.  Instead of convincing anyone with a brain to their side they just annoy them with the idiot suggestions and ideals they come out with.

One thing on the battery packs I have had on my mind for some time and that's their longevity.
Tesla for instance uses 18650 form factor and from what I can find, a VERY close chemistry to all other 18650s that are used  in laptops, power tools etc.
What gets me is how in the hell they are getting decent life out the things? I never had a laptop or a power tool where the battery wasn't degraded after 3-4 years whether the thing was used daily or spend 99% of it's time on float charge because the machine was plugged into the mains.

Much the same is true for Lipo's. They are light weight, have excellent power characteristics BUT, they are not particularly long lived.
The aim/ expectation of most people I would believe would be a 10 year life so how in the hell are these batteries going to survive that long or at least, have anything like a respectable range left?

The Early teslas are getting on in age now and it would be interesting to know, as Tesla surely do with their unbelievably invasive big brother connection to all their vehicles, how much deterioration has taken place in their battery packs. Knowing tesla and what is at stake for them atm. I can see them  contacting the owners and saying they are due for a service and changing the packs without saying a thing.  The cost would far outweight the detriment  of it getting out that the packs die in the arse in 6-7 years.  If I were CEO of a company like Tesla, that's what I'd be telling them to do.

There will come a point however where the potential neg publicity no longer matters as everyone is the same or there is enough market share so it will be screw the customer and her's a $10 K bill.

There are plenty of Priarses that have falling over battery packs now and the prices of them here are in the order of $1500 for a used 7 Kwh pack.  What's a new 60 or 80 Kw pack going to cost?

Oh yeah, that's right, these battery packs are going to get cheap as chips arent they when everyone is using them.
Huge demand for a limited supply product that manufacturing will struggle to keep up with for years despite new ( filthy pollouting ) mines and production lines.
Yes, that is normally the way things fall drastically in price.
If there is not enough demand and production of batteries already, there is never going to be enough to cause prices to fall.  In any case, look at the good old lead acid.  Millions upon millions of the things produced every year for vehicles alone not to mention industrial uses and they have been making them by the million if not billion for decades!
 Do  batteries for your vehicle get cheaper every time you go buy one or have they gone up in the 3/5/8 years since you bought the last one? Here they are pretty much double the price they were 10 years ago.

If qty production made them cheaper, they would be paying you to take them away by now.


 

Offline george80

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3278 on: February 13, 2019, 01:29:31 am »
Here in europe the trend with new ICE cars to have small turbo engines like 1.0 l putting out 100+ hp. Now tell me these engines will last long (10+years) without major overhaul...

I don't believe they will in normal use but......
While they may be a trend, they are not a majority.
I think you will find a lot of these cars are aimed at a certain market that does generally not do a lot of miles.  That said, My father has 3 Subaru Sherpas with 1L engines that have all done WELL over 100,000km and are closer to 20 years old than 10.  Granted, they are small cars and do about 40 Hp and are NA but realistically, most vehicles use about 20-40 Hp most of the time. The full power is used a very small amount of the time the engine is operating.

I personally have never believed in the small engine big car idea but metalurgy, design and engine oils have all improved.  At worst, these things have a lot better chance of surviving than they did before.

Again though, these things are a PART of the market not the total market.  BMW for instance has increased the size of the engine in many of it's models over the years because with fuel injection they can be more economical at lower revs using higher torque than the economy a buzz box running it's arse off can.
Slower revs, like aircraft , trucks and ships have always used means better longevity.

My wifes car has over 250K on the little 2L engine in it. yes, I did swap the heads to put on some higher compression ones but the others were fine and this was a desired modification not a necessary requirement. It's well know that these engines will go 400k Km with nothing more than a set of head gaskets to replace the dodgy ones the factory installed . They tend to go about the 150K km mark and once replaced, never have to be touched again.

I have also personal seen and worked on 2 of these 2L engines that had over 500 K Km and one of them was completely untouched save for the timing belt and pulley being replaced every 100K Km.  Wasn't even a country car, did time in the country and the city, about the same in both judging from the log books and receipts.

I have doubts about engines that do massive power from small displacement but then again, Bikes have been doing well over 100 HP from 1 litre again for 20 years at least and no trouble getting them to 100K Km or 10 years.
 

Offline george80

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3279 on: February 13, 2019, 01:46:18 am »

BTW driving short distances is also not good for petrol cars. For example: the piston seals can seize up causing high oil consumption.



The piston Seals???   :-DD
Really?

Where, where, WHERE do you get this idiotic garbage from?   |O

Do you make it up or are you just so clueless you don't even know what piston rings are? Please stop talking about things you have less than no idea about. it's embarrassing to read as well as frustrating. have you no self pride, no dignity? Do you enjoy people laughing at you and making such a fool of yourself.
Please stop. Just STOP.  you bring down the credibility of this forum as well as having demolished and form of respect anyone could have for anything you dribble out.

In any case, again that's pure and utter garbage but please provide factual evidence that what you say is Correct like you demand off everyone else.

Unless you were driving your car round the block and never gave it an oil change, you would Never cause the rings to stick on any car made and running on any fuel produced in the last 20 years at least. Aside from that, everyone that knows about cars clearly knew that in the day it was not the rings that stuck or got carbon deposits it was  always the conrod valves due to the old type oils having a high ash content which never fully burned off due to the engine not reaching proper temp due to the short drives.

At least do your homework and have SOME idea what you are talking about.
That's the thing with these discussions, if you get over trying to push a point and always be right, you can be inspired to look things up and learn things.
Try it some time, I guarantee it will help you with your 5th grade studies a lot.

Do you have ANY clue how the internal combustion engine works and what the engine computer monitors  and the controls it has over the engine?
Why am I even asking.  you wouldn't know how the engine in a lawn mower works much less have the ability to fix it but you still come up with all this moronic garbage as if it's a real thing.

Please go away and stop embarrassing us all or YOU provide the "scientific" reports you want others to provide to back up your garbage assertions. 
 
 
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Offline orion242

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3280 on: February 13, 2019, 02:31:03 am »
So you go home on a limited charge and have to charge up to get back to work. 

And then piss your charge back into the building.  In a nutshell your exporting your energy to the building and wearing the shit out of your battery in the process.  I get pay for the power that my employer is using?!?

They Must be in another dimension apparently because none of that's is flying in mine.
 

Offline orion242

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3281 on: February 13, 2019, 02:45:29 am »
Remember that the Leaf has limited range. A lot of buyers are probably people who mostly make short journeys, and are way below the national average for annual mileage.

Outside of the roadster which is silly expensive, it seems most EVs from early 2010 had squat for range.  As already pointed out...the experiment is still on.  I couldn't find anything that's even close to a 10yrs old for resale values that's been driven like a standard ICE.  15K/yr national average.  After looking at the Leaf, it seems to be a status symbol / feel good buy more than anything.  If your only driving 20K miles in 7 years, which most of them where... get a bike, walk to work, carpool, or scooter if you really want to save the world.  That was just the first EV I could think of that's been around for a while.  Looking at some of the other 2011 options, you cannot even get a KBB resale price on them.  Is that because they didn't sell well?  Is that because they all have been scrapped?  Who knows.

There is simply little, if any, real data on 10yr old EVs driven like an average ICE.  Even then, typical life span of a ICE is 11yrs per DOT.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 03:25:53 am by orion242 »
 

Offline george80

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3282 on: February 13, 2019, 04:18:37 am »

And then piss your charge back into the building.  In a nutshell your exporting your energy to the building and wearing the shit out of your battery in the process.  I get pay for the power that my employer is using?!?

In fairness, I think a lot of these ideas/ suggestions are dreampt up by muppets and numptys that are hell bent on pushing the cause and desperate to make things sound as wonderful as possible even if they loose touch and start saying ridiculous thing.  We have one such example right in our Midst here.

the question is, how many out there are dumb enough to fall for it?
Unfortunately I think the answer to that would be " A frightening amount".
It's like the people that buy home batteries like power wallys. They make NO sense at all from an economic, practical , environmental  or another POV the world over.  Still, people buy them to be trendy or think they are doing some good mental masturbation of some sort that escapes me.
They believe the hype and clearly have more dollars than sense and spend fortunes on the things.

I think the same will happen with EV's. Big bunrush to get the latest and greatest and bow to peer pressure to a degree and then discover they aren't all they were cracked up to be and little has changed and none for the better.

I wonder if this happened to an appreciable extent with the EV's you are looking at for resale values?  They were bought thinking they would be this or that or eliminate whatever problem that was on the mind of the purchaser and then reality of ownership came crashing down and they were dissapointed with the things so didn't drive them much. Maybe kept using an older or other car and let the battery powered toy sit in the shed?
Maybe the range wasn't enough, maybe the constant need to charge was annoying, maybe they even ran out of power and got stranded some time and that put the wind up them?
Maybe as you say they just didn't need a car in the first place.

One thing is interesting though, a BIG thing amoung the EV lovers and Pushers is the average journey is only xx miles so the ev's have more than enough to drive you to work and back. If people DID use them for this, wouldn't they rack up some decent miles?
30 Km day x 48 weeks is 7200 Km which isn't a lot but it's a lot more than the type of numbers these EV's typicaly have. Add in some running round on the weekends etc....   Should be pushing 9K km year easy. 9 yo vehicle, 81K km.

The problem here is, If you you are only doing 30km to work and back every day, You could be driving a mack truck and the fuel expense is not going to be that large. Certainly not enough to make an EV worth 3/4/5x what a comparable ICE could be had for a worthwhile investment to say $20 a week, if that, on Petrol.
I think most people would Buy a $5k car for the 15 Min to work and back and be happy with that. Buy the right $5k car and you could be spending $10 a week on juice with the mileage some of those little  diesels get.

Getting people to change, especially from what they have always known is a big task. Getting them to change with something that is their 2nd biggest investment and is new and uncertain technology is an even bigger hurdle.
I wonder if this basic  human behavior will limit the sales of EV's far more than they anticipate despite all the hype and razzamatazz.

Got to say, the one I drove for a week wouldn't motivate me to change.  Still too much the same that the power plant of a vehicle makes no different to in every day real world conditions.
Maybe this has been a factor in low ev mileage as well. Traffic jams were still there, parking was still difficult and expensive, roads still shithouse, bad drivers still out there.... 

An Ev changes one thing only, how you fuel it. All the rest is the same, till you want to go for a decent trip that is.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3283 on: February 13, 2019, 06:14:06 am »
Plugging in at home is a lot more convenient than having to stop by a gas station. But plug in hybrids also give you that for the daily commute without giving up anything regarding long distance.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3284 on: February 13, 2019, 07:52:46 am »

BTW driving short distances is also not good for petrol cars. For example: the piston seals can seize up causing high oil consumption.



The piston Seals???   :-DD
Really?
Yes. Seized piston seals seems to be a problem sometimes found on certain Ford models driving around in the NL. At least so I have been told by a mechanic who specialises in Ford cars. Remember the Netherlands is mostly flat so car engines don't have to do much work. This gives specific problems with engines building up dirt inside you don't see very often in countries where cars have to drive up a steep hill every now and then.

And actually I know quite a bit about cars. The last two I bought had problems even the dealer couldn't fix. I got them both running right again.

Your personal attacks don't serve any purpose at all. This is an engineering forum so numbers talk and the rest just walks.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 09:07:35 am by nctnico »
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Offline gildasd

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3285 on: February 13, 2019, 09:25:53 am »
On an otherwise healthy engine, gummed up oil rings indicated high load with low rpm with short running time. In extreme cases, it is due to blow-by, but that needs high boost/compression and/or driving like a loon/racing driver - that should not be the case here..
But (thinking aloud here), the lube oil would have be pretty worn out for the oil ring to foul before getting carbon buildup on the exhaust valve(s) (high load low rpm should be a rich situation on a gasoline engine).

As an aside, if a car is run exclusively in town (short distances, stop and go etc) if the oil change is set at 10000km, it better to do it at around 7 to 8000km.
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Offline george80

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3286 on: February 13, 2019, 09:28:28 am »

Yes. Seized piston seals

Well you got me and i learned something.

I thought maybe piston seals were a nomenclature used for rings in other parts of the world. you prompted my to google the term to see if I could find if anyone called Rings , " Piston seal"s?

NOPE! That's just another figment of your imagination. But you got me too look. Should have known.
 I can find no such reference in automotive terminology in any region so just more flawed waffle and ignorance on your part.

Quote
At least so I have been told by a mechanic who specialises in Ford cars.

I very much doubt that's what he said. In fact i'd be sure he said no such thing.

Quote
Remember the Netherlands is mostly flat so car engines don't have to do much work. This gives specific problems with engines building up dirt inside you don't see very often in countries where cars have to drive up a steep hill every now and then.

Nope, makes no difference. More invented excuses and attempts at face saving once again. All you would need to do now and then is put your foot down at the lights or accelerate when getting onto a highway or cruising along it.  Same thing as far as engine loading goes.  There is no physical or mechanical reason for engines to carbon up because they are running relatively low power, certainly not since the days of Fuel injection.
I have NEVER heard of a petrol engine unless it was old and completely shot to foul Rings.  Diesels however can do it at low power but that's nothing like what you are talking about.

I run veg oil in my 4Wd and I have the injector pump turned way up so the thing runs like a scalded cat.  Because I run veg oil which does not burn as clean as Diesel and in fact will leave carbon and ash deposits Diesel does not, Sticking the rings with Carbon that bakes rock hard is a potential issue.
To combat that, I run a home grown water injection system.  The steam effect and the Phase change from a liquid to a gas creates cavitation which creates basically mini explosions that will displace carbon deposits but not affect the metal in the engine.  This keeps the engine clean and any deposits blown out the exhaust. I also run Methanol in the water at times for much more power and it seems to have the benifit of a better cleaning effect.  I don't believe it's in teh engine, I tend to think it may be in the exhaust and passages in the muffler.  the effect lasts a bit after all the Meth has gone but slowly comes back unless the WI is turned right up to the point there is more water being used that oil fuel.

BTW, that is all fact, nothing to catch you out there, that's too easy anyway.

Using veg oil is a big thing in Europe and there are conversion kits  to run a lot of cars on oil. Being such a big believer in biofuels, I an only onder why you are not doing this if you are truly as commited to them as you make out.  I can't see anyone  that was a real believer running a petrol car when there is so much info and help available where you are to run Veg oil and some of the most knowledgeable people in the world on the subject are on your door step.
Curious. Very Curious.

I believe the Netherlands is a fairly wet, cool country with high humidity so in effect, vehicles would get a decent water injection treatment anyway which would further make the idea of petrol engines gumming rings even more unlikely.  It could only happen in a very rich condition where the engine was burning the fuel poorly which the computer would sense and pull back on the injections rates for emission as well as best engine operation.

Quote
And actually I know quite a bit about cars. The last two I bought had problems even the dealer couldn't fix. I got them both running right again.

No, mate, not even close. You clearly don't know the most basic things about cars or engines or a lot else. That is something you have well proven beyond all shadow of doubt. Had you any idea, you would have jumped on another one I gave you which I really thought was so obvious,
Aside from that, everyone that knows about cars clearly knew that in the day it was not the rings that stuck or got carbon deposits it was  always the conrod valves due to the old type oils having a high ash content which never fully burned off due to the engine not reaching proper temp due to the short drives.
 
no one with any mechanical knowledge could miss it.

Conrod Valves!   :-DD

You had no idea that was a made up nonsense but you want to tell me you know a lot about cars and fixed something trained mechanics at a dealership couldn't???
I doubt you could change a spark plug or oil.  And that's OK, not everyone can know everything about everything but it becomes not ok when you try to pretend you do know things and make really basic mistakes that show you up to be full of it and when you just keep digging yourself in deeper.  Enough already.

Please stop.  PLEASE!  Don't you have any shame or dignity?  You are making yourself look beyond ridiculous. Completely stupid in fact. It's just embarrassing for everyone.
Just sit back, try to take things in and learn. If you have the overwhelming urge to say something, quadruple check anything and everything before you post it. You'll most likely learn a lot just from that as well. 
Maybe if you took a step down off the high horse and ASKED some questions, people might even help you if you didn't come across as a know it all git and just alienated people.

Forums are a wonderful thing and you can learn so much if only you know when to shut the hell up and ask about what you don't know or just read and clue yourself in.

I really hope you'll give it a try and come at things from a different approach. It will benifit you and might benifit the rest of us as well.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3287 on: February 13, 2019, 09:46:03 am »

Yes. Seized piston seals

Well you got me and i learned something.

I thought maybe piston seals were a nomenclature used for rings in other parts of the world. you prompted my to google the term to see if I could find if anyone called Rings , " Piston seal"s?
You got me. English is not my native language... but if the right term is 'piston rings' then I learned something. Still piston seals put you on the right track so my message did come across.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline gildasd

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3288 on: February 13, 2019, 10:24:14 am »
 George80, you do not have exclusive knowledge of all engines, in all situations, all over the world.
I specialise in large marine engines, but I have show car dealers how to fix my own vehicles a couple of times too, as the mechanics where following the procedures a bit too much to the letter.
(On company cars, as I’m not allowed to wrench on them, but I don’t want to leave the car for 3 days to fix bad contact in a connector, for example, so I take my Leatherman out, do the job and ask them to reset the engine light).

A piston seal usually implies an O-ring on a hydraulic system but English also not being my momspeak, I understood what was meant.

The sort of build up that was spoken of does exist, I was offered a side-gig by a local used car dealer to fix that sort of thing on older VW Golfs and Opels. But the methods used (minimal disassembly, splitting the case, disconnecting the belts, lifting the whole upper  to access the pistons and crank - on the car lot - seemed a bit cowboy to me) and the general lack of safe tools made me run away (I am not squeezing piston rings in by hand from bellow while someone is jiggling the block to make it go down).


Edit: I am wrong.
What I assumed I saw is not possible on that Golf engine. I assumed I saw something and I am mistaken.
The space between the cylinders on that engine (and most engines) is smaller that the width of the plain bearing below it.
So I probably witnessed a cock up of two idiots lifting the crankcase too high after fitting the cylinders and snapping a ring open below the cylinder.
I was wrong, I should research stuff more and not trust my eyes as much and, being a mechanic, know better.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 08:56:24 pm by gildasd »
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Offline fourtytwo42

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3289 on: February 13, 2019, 10:46:00 am »
The sort of build up that was spoken of does exist, I was offered a side-gig by a local used car dealer to fix that sort of thing on older VW Golfs and Opels. But the methods used (minimal disassembly, splitting the case, disconnecting the belts, lifting the whole upper  to access the pistons and crank - on the car lot - seemed a bit cowboy to me) and the general lack of safe tools made me run away (I am not squeezing piston rings in by hand from bellow while someone is jiggling the block to make it go down).

This thread is full of horse manure but this one takes the biscuit  :-DD
I challenge anyone on this earth to reach up inside an engine via the crankcase with the head in place and replace a piston ring (on a car engine)!

This thread has actually made me dismiss this site as full of immature, idiotic armchair protagonists with mostly no idea of what they are talking about so little point in having or expecting to find any serious meaningful discussion here.

Some other sites are a little better but I don't want to name them to avoid the children turning up there too |O
 
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Offline george80

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3290 on: February 13, 2019, 11:38:47 am »

 to fix that sort of thing on older VW Golfs and Opels.

Be specific, How old? Round about date of manufacture?
 

Offline gildasd

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3291 on: February 13, 2019, 12:17:10 pm »
Golf 3 and 4ish.
What they were doing should not work, but apparently they do it all the time...
I'm electronically illiterate
 

Offline george80

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3292 on: February 13, 2019, 12:21:20 pm »
Golf 3 and 4ish.


Yeah well, that does explain it but the problem was far more a case of a few than a majority.
 

Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3293 on: February 13, 2019, 12:34:17 pm »
Just use the proper oil one with enough detergent of the right kind.
Even when the experts all agree, they may well be mistaken.
 

Offline gildasd

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3294 on: February 13, 2019, 12:37:28 pm »
The sort of build up that was spoken of does exist, I was offered a side-gig by a local used car dealer to fix that sort of thing on older VW Golfs and Opels. But the methods used (minimal disassembly, splitting the case, disconnecting the belts, lifting the whole upper  to access the pistons and crank - on the car lot - seemed a bit cowboy to me) and the general lack of safe tools made me run away (I am not squeezing piston rings in by hand from bellow while someone is jiggling the block to make it go down).

This thread is full of horse manure but this one takes the biscuit  :-DD
I challenge anyone on this earth to reach up inside an engine via the crankcase with the head in place and replace a piston ring (on a car engine)!

This thread has actually made me dismiss this site as full of immature, idiotic armchair protagonists with mostly no idea of what they are talking about so little point in having or expecting to find any serious meaningful discussion here.

Some other sites are a little better but I don't want to name them to avoid the children turning up there too |O
This was obviously after having changed the rings with the upper half of the crankcase and the cylinders off, then they put it back together (sorry if that did not seem clear).
I did not stay to see how the whole process worked (bit squeamish at seeing people lose fingers). But the crankcase was split wide open, the head minimally disassembled (to get to the studs I imagine) yet still on, and two guys “putting it back together”, one having two hands in between the crankcase halves (might have been holding  a small tool, but it did not look like it) and the other dude shaking it.
The owner asked me if I could do that, I said “no”.

Anyhow, this was done to clean the pistons and change the rings to compensate for wear.


Edit: I am wrong.
What I assumed I saw is not possible on that Golf engine. I assumed I saw something and I am mistaken.
The space between the cylinders on that engine (and most engines) is smaller that the width of the plain bearing below it.
So I probably witnessed a cock up of two idiots lifting the crankcase too high after fitting the cylinders and snapping a ring open below the cylinder.
I was wrong, I should research stuff more and not trust my eyes as much and, being a mechanic, know better.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 08:57:00 pm by gildasd »
I'm electronically illiterate
 

Online GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3295 on: February 13, 2019, 12:40:09 pm »
Can't change the piston rings without removing the head, it's impossible. Even if you could remove the piston from below, you would not be able to put them back in place from below because the ring compressor needs a flat surface to work.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 12:45:59 pm by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
Even when the experts all agree, they may well be mistaken.
 
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Offline gildasd

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3296 on: February 13, 2019, 01:23:02 pm »
Can't change the piston rings without removing the head, it's impossible. Even if you could remove the piston from below, you would not be able to put them back in place from below because the ring compressor needs a flat surface to work.
Yeah I know, how the F they managed beats me.
Maybe they were stuck?


Edit: I am wrong.
What I assumed I saw is not possible on that Golf engine. I assumed I saw something and I am mistaken.
The space between the cylinders on that engine (and most engines) is smaller that the width of the plain bearing below it.
So I probably witnessed a cock up of two idiots lifting the crankcase too high after fitting the cylinders and snapping a ring open below the cylinder.
I was wrong, I should research stuff more and not trust my eyes as much and, being a mechanic, know better.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 08:57:36 pm by gildasd »
I'm electronically illiterate
 

Offline coppice

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3297 on: February 13, 2019, 01:42:54 pm »
Can't change the piston rings without removing the head, it's impossible. Even if you could remove the piston from below, you would not be able to put them back in place from below because the ring compressor needs a flat surface to work.
Whilst that is the usual practice, don't some racing engines have a single piece head and body? They must have a method for getting the pistons in from below.
 

Offline ahbushnell

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3298 on: February 13, 2019, 03:22:28 pm »
The sort of build up that was spoken of does exist, I was offered a side-gig by a local used car dealer to fix that sort of thing on older VW Golfs and Opels. But the methods used (minimal disassembly, splitting the case, disconnecting the belts, lifting the whole upper  to access the pistons and crank - on the car lot - seemed a bit cowboy to me) and the general lack of safe tools made me run away (I am not squeezing piston rings in by hand from bellow while someone is jiggling the block to make it go down).

This thread is full of horse manure but this one takes the biscuit  :-DD
I challenge anyone on this earth to reach up inside an engine via the crankcase with the head in place and replace a piston ring (on a car engine)!

This thread has actually made me dismiss this site as full of immature, idiotic armchair protagonists with mostly no idea of what they are talking about so little point in having or expecting to find any serious meaningful discussion here.

Some other sites are a little better but I don't want to name them to avoid the children turning up there too |O

I agree. 
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3299 on: February 13, 2019, 05:45:02 pm »
So is the consensus EV cars will continue to become popular with consumers while being no so good for the environment.

Biofuels and hydrogen powered cars are economical and thermodynamicly never going to happen.

Man caused climate change which is resulting in the melting of the polar ice caps will be good business for the oil companies.  With the ice sheet gone it will expose vast new oil reserves and price of fossil fuels will drop.

There are a lot of greenies who beleive anything is possible and feel the laws of physiscs, thermodynamics and chemistry does not apply to them.  They will continue to beleive cars can be powered with the electrolysis of water and CO2 and water in the atmosphere can be converted into automobile fuel economicly.

Electricty from solar and wind in 50 years will might be able to provide less than 20% of the world’s electricty needs.  We just do’t have the raw resources to produce more.

Nuclear power while not without issues is far better than all of the other methods we know about and certainly causes far less heath problems for people compared to fossil fuels.  Fossil fuels are responsible for causing the premature death and heath issues for one billion people or about one eighth of the worlds population.
 


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