Author Topic: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?  (Read 185191 times)

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Online coppice

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3375 on: February 21, 2019, 05:14:38 pm »
Meanwhile, the beat goes on...

EV sales continue to grow.  Especially impressive in light of the fact that total auto sales have been flat or down for several months now.


Are those January 2019 sales for the whole of January? If so, is that the normal seasonal variation between December and January sales for other types of car?
 

Offline boffin

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3376 on: February 21, 2019, 05:25:00 pm »
EV sales have continued their rapid growth rate despite overall auto sales growth being flat.

1.6 million auto sales in the US for December 2018 is accurate but includes light trucks (trucks, SUVs, vans).  Considering that at this time there are essentially no EV models available in those categories that is a poor comparison. (Though a large number of EV s in the light truck category are being released in the next 2 years).

Light truck sales have recently made up about 2/3 of total US auto sales.  (Yes Americans like their big SUVs and trucks).

The 10% number is similar to that of Canada where the last numbers I saw were that 8% of all new cars were BEV/PHEV in early 2018.  I'd be surprised if Canada doesn't beat the US in car sales percentages due to the double whammy of lower electricity and higher gasoline prices (compared to the USA). 

Here in BC the fuel costs of a BEV are 1/7th that of the compatible ICE (given today's electricity/gasoline price), so the incentive is pretty high. 

So to sum up once again
Q: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
A: They have already
 
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Offline george80

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3377 on: February 21, 2019, 09:34:23 pm »

Here in BC the fuel costs of a BEV are 1/7th that of the compatible ICE (given today's electricity/gasoline price), so the incentive is pretty high. 

I'd like to see real world verifyable figures to support that.

Seen so many claims of this when it does not add up. A favourite is to quote the cost of Filling an ICE and an EV and claiming one is cheaper than the other but not taking into account the ICE goes 4-6x further than the EV.

Tesla had a page on it's site here showing it's car was cheaper to run over 1500KM. Typically with their endless bullshit and lies, the calculation took into account the 400KWH of free supercharging that came with every new Vehicle.  The first 1500Km may have been cheaper but the next and every subsequent 1500km was far from cheap at all.

I don't trust any claims made by the greenwashed because they have proven to exaggerate and lie either by omission or otherwise on so many things in their desperation to push their cult and turn everyone to converts.

In any case, I see any EV price advantage to be short lived.
As more EV's put more pressure on grids around the world that will need to be upgraded and have billions spent on infrastructure the price of power WILL  go up as it continues to do here at an economic crippling rate.
At the same time as fuel sales go down, the cartels will start leveling the playing field and reducing the now artificially inflated cost of fuel.
Anyone that thinks the oil industry is just going to sit on it's arse and seen their profits go down the gurgler without fighting it is a moron.

The scenarios are always painted as nice and straight forward but reality is anything but. 
 
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Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3378 on: February 21, 2019, 10:14:39 pm »

Here in BC the fuel costs of a BEV are 1/7th that of the compatible ICE (given today's electricity/gasoline price), so the incentive is pretty high. 

I'd like to see real world verifyable figures to support that.

Seen so many claims of this when it does not add up. A favourite is to quote the cost of Filling an ICE and an EV and claiming one is cheaper than the other but not taking into account the ICE goes 4-6x further than the EV.

Tesla had a page on it's site here showing it's car was cheaper to run over 1500KM. Typically with their endless bullshit and lies, the calculation took into account the 400KWH of free supercharging that came with every new Vehicle.  The first 1500Km may have been cheaper but the next and every subsequent 1500km was far from cheap at all.

I don't trust any claims made by the greenwashed because they have proven to exaggerate and lie either by omission or otherwise on so many things in their desperation to push their cult and turn everyone to converts.

In any case, I see any EV price advantage to be short lived.
As more EV's put more pressure on grids around the world that will need to be upgraded and have billions spent on infrastructure the price of power WILL  go up as it continues to do here at an economic crippling rate.
At the same time as fuel sales go down, the cartels will start leveling the playing field and reducing the now artificially inflated cost of fuel.
Anyone that thinks the oil industry is just going to sit on it's arse and seen their profits go down the gurgler without fighting it is a moron.

The scenarios are always painted as nice and straight forward but reality is anything but.

george80 you are absolutely correct.  I live in California and our power company by the end of this year will have everyone on a Time of Use Billing which will greatly complicate EV.  Depending on the rate plan a kWhr ranges from $0.12 to $0.87.  Will people have to "fill-up" when the power company is charging  $0.87 kWhr?  They sure would if they don't want to walk home.  For a Tesla this would be over twice if not close to three times what it would cost to fuel and ICE car with gasoline.

Now if one has solar panels and can sell electricity to the power company this changes everything as you can sell kHrs to the power company at $0.87kWhr and then buy back those kWhrs for only $0.12.  But then one has to factor in the $35,000 Tesla/Solar City charges for the solar panels.

As someone who owns an electric car in California the annual cost difference between "fueling" an EV and an ICE is a difference of a few hundred dollars.  And as electricity rates increase it's going to be even less.

The big advantage with EVs other than BSing people into thinking they are doing something "good" for the planet is they cause the pollution in someone else's backyard.  There is no cost "real" cost savings.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3379 on: February 21, 2019, 10:19:52 pm »

Here in BC the fuel costs of a BEV are 1/7th that of the compatible ICE (given today's electricity/gasoline price), so the incentive is pretty high. 

I'd like to see real world verifyable figures to support that.
Its all too easy to manipulate that sort of comparison in either direction, though a few years old now this post has the world comparison:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/problems-if-we-all-had-tesla-cars/msg705793/#msg705793
Picking less efficient vehicles to compare against the Tesla would just change the slope of the line showing parity. Equally picking a more efficient electric car could push it further.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3380 on: February 21, 2019, 10:26:02 pm »
nctnico  wanted to get back to you on biofuels.  You made it clear you do no believe in applying critical thinking skills or peer review.  Ever hear of a women by the name of Elizabeth Holmes?  She was the youngest female billionaire.  After taking two classes at Stanford University she dropped out and developed a machine which could perform over 250  blood tests with less than a drop of blood.  She refused to allow anyone to see the machine or show anyone how the machine worked but she hyped the heck out of her company to get investors.  Sounds exactly like what's going on with biofuels.  You keep telling us how great and wonderful they are....  Just too good to be true?  Kind of like Theranos.  How do we know you are not an "Elizabeth Homes" when it comes to biofuels?

http://abcradio.com/podcasts/the-dropout/
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3381 on: February 21, 2019, 10:28:18 pm »

Here in BC the fuel costs of a BEV are 1/7th that of the compatible ICE (given today's electricity/gasoline price), so the incentive is pretty high. 

I'd like to see real world verifyable figures to support that.
Its all too easy to manipulate that sort of comparison in either direction, though a few years old now this post has the world comparison:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/problems-if-we-all-had-tesla-cars/msg705793/#msg705793
Picking less efficient vehicles to compare against the Tesla would just change the slope of the line showing parity. Equally picking a more efficient electric car could push it further.

I think it is fair at this time to say it's a wash.  It's only perceived to be less costly and better for the planet in the minds of people who think it is.  Remember this is not our first or second round with electric cars.  This is the third attempt.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3382 on: February 21, 2019, 11:38:42 pm »
Now if one has solar panels and can sell electricity to the power company this changes everything as you can sell kHrs to the power company at $0.87kWhr and then buy back those kWhrs for only $0.12.  But then one has to factor in the $35,000 Tesla/Solar City charges for the solar panels.
Why buy (overpriced) Tesla solar panels for a Tesla car when cheaper alternatives exist? That's even less valid than saying that you have to buy overpriced Apple headphones for an iPhone.
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Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3383 on: February 22, 2019, 12:42:12 am »
nctnico  wanted to get back to you on biofuels.  You made it clear you do no believe in applying critical thinking skills or peer review.  Ever hear of a women by the name of Elizabeth Holmes?  She was the youngest female billionaire.  After taking two classes at Stanford University she dropped out and developed a machine which could perform over 250  blood tests with less than a drop of blood.  She refused to allow anyone to see the machine or show anyone how the machine worked but she hyped the heck out of her company to get investors.
Nice try but no sigar. You are way off as usual. There are several independent companies working on 3rd generation bio-fuels. These are multi-billion dollar companies which have invested hundreds of millions of their own money into various factories which are up & running today. There is no hype, they don't need investors for money and there are no secrets. Production volumes for US based operations are reported to the EPA.

Perhaps do your homework first before posting nonsense which is easely proven wrong (see the articles and US government websites I've linked to before).
« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 12:44:14 am by nctnico »
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Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3384 on: February 22, 2019, 01:28:19 am »
Now if one has solar panels and can sell electricity to the power company this changes everything as you can sell kHrs to the power company at $0.87kWhr and then buy back those kWhrs for only $0.12.  But then one has to factor in the $35,000 Tesla/Solar City charges for the solar panels.
Why buy (overpriced) Tesla solar panels for a Tesla car when cheaper alternatives exist? That's even less valid than saying that you have to buy overpriced Apple headphones for an iPhone.

Why do you say they are over priced?  Going price for solar systems from companies like Tesla, SunRun, SunPower, Vivint is $3.75 to $4.00 /watt.  The reason for buying overpriced Apple headphones is they are better quality.  I know.  I have six different headphones for my iPhone and the overpriced Apple ones are by far the best in terms of construction, sound quality and noise reduction.  I'm frugal with my money, and feel the over priced Apple headphones are worth it.  Your hearing my vary. 

 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3385 on: February 22, 2019, 01:32:59 am »
nctnico  wanted to get back to you on biofuels.  You made it clear you do no believe in applying critical thinking skills or peer review.  Ever hear of a women by the name of Elizabeth Holmes?  She was the youngest female billionaire.  After taking two classes at Stanford University she dropped out and developed a machine which could perform over 250  blood tests with less than a drop of blood.  She refused to allow anyone to see the machine or show anyone how the machine worked but she hyped the heck out of her company to get investors.
Nice try but no sigar. You are way off as usual. There are several independent companies working on 3rd generation bio-fuels. These are multi-billion dollar companies which have invested hundreds of millions of their own money into various factories which are up & running today. There is no hype, they don't need investors for money and there are no secrets. Production volumes for US based operations are reported to the EPA.

Perhaps do your homework first before posting nonsense which is easely proven wrong (see the articles and US government websites I've linked to before).

It sure as shit is all hype.  That's all you have posted.  No cigar needed when one looks at your posts from a few years ago and compares the projected sales goals with the actual sales figures.  Not quite as bad as Theranos fraud, but it's sure not the solution you keep saying it is.  Dude just look at the sales figures over the past several years they are abysmal compared to what was projected.

Not quit as bad a Theranos, but the hype is just like that of biofuels.

https://youtu.be/87SWZ0Pna8k
« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 02:02:03 am by DougSpindler »
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3386 on: February 22, 2019, 03:29:46 am »
When my oldest turns 16 in a little over 3 years, I plan to give him my Volt and get an EV pick up. Then I can sell my Toyota Tundra, the last pure ICE vehicle I’ll likely ever own.
Just be prepared that your kid's usage scenarios and willingness to put up the limitations of an EV may not match yours... You might end up selling the  Volt and keeping the Tundra.

Ha. When I was 16 I would have LOVED to have a car that I could refill for 'free" by just plugging it in at my parents house.  My main limitation driving at that age was not having money to buy gasoline.
 

Offline george80

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3387 on: February 22, 2019, 03:56:19 am »

Depending on the rate plan a kWhr ranges from $0.12 to $0.87.  Will people have to "fill-up" when the power company is charging  $0.87 kWhr? 

HOOLY DOOLEY!!!
I thought some plans in Oz were ripoffs at .54 C Kwh but .87 is just eye watering.

You are right, there will be those that have to charge because you can't always schedule your movements and situation especially around refueling a vehicle.  What really gets me though is the power companies will be talking endless green crap about scheduling your loads and " Modifying behaviour" when the highest prices will be right in the evenings when dad comes home from work and the meal is being prepared and Kids are doing whatever watching TV, on the computer etc and there is NO way to "Modify Behaviour".

What are you going to say?  It's 5PM, go to bed  now kids and I'll wake you up at 10 PM for dinner and to do your homework. Yeah, that will fly!
Kids go to school and tell other Kids they eat Dinner at 9PM and Child services will probably be knocking on the door to take the kids away from the " abusive" parents.  Geez this do good crap gives me the irrits.
And you could not pay me enough to live in cali-fail-na. I have a couple of friends that live there and if 10% of what I hear about the place is true..... My god! One mate can't have a gas portable BBQ going to cook his evening meal without the neighbors bitch and the council/ cops/ Fire department come and threaten to fine him.


Quote
Now if one has solar panels and can sell electricity to the power company this changes everything as you can sell kHrs to the power company at $0.87kWhr and then buy back those kWhrs for only $0.12.  But then one has to factor in the $35,000 Tesla/Solar City charges for the solar panels.

We have nothing  Like selling the power back to the grid for what it costs.  I do in my own underhanded way. Still have spinny meters which my solar winds back during the day and I use at night to make the grid act like my battery.
Here the normal thing is you can get back about .8 to .20C per KWH you send back BUT, the higher the amount you get, the more you pay for what you use.  Nothing like a con job. They advertise and make a big deal of the High FIT rates but even when you are aware of the scam it often takes some Digging to find what the charges are.  The other thing they get you on is high " Supply" charges so they are making plenty even if you are using nothing.  Lot of other scams they have here as well advertising discounts but then cooking the books so you get a fraction of what they promote.

Solar here is FAR cheaper than in the states.
A 6.6KW system here can be had all day for $6000 with good quality components and that includes installation. There are cheaper systems available for closer to the $4k mark for that sort of output.
I saw a Vid done about a week ago the other day where a guy in the US was quoting $30K  for a 4 or 5KW system. I had to go back and make sure I hadn't heard wrong but then he showed the figures..... scary!

The thing about charging an EV from solar is largely a Crock as well.
In order to do that and not cost oneself money anyway, one would have to be generating an EXCESS equivalent  to the amount the EV used every day. For many, that's not easy and for those that can, it's certainly not going to happen all the time.
I don't know what US Consumption is on average, would obviously vary a lot as with anywhere depending on wether gas was used and time of year.
I think it would be fair to say 20 Kwh as a conservative average.

5 kw of panels in a sunny place in summer might generate 25Kwh.  In winter maybe 10. On an overcast day, maybe 5. Maybe. Of course if you have shading issues that's going to knock generation around as does weather.
In any case, one would have to have 10Kw of panels on the roof to be in the hunt to be able to support the power the home uses AND the EV.
If you can't do both, then you are robbing Peter to pay Paul which is exactly what so many of the green cult are preaching knowingly or by ignorance.

In Sydney we have a 33% weather split. About 1/3rd of the days are bright sunny and clear, about 1/3rd have intermittent cloud and the other 3rd are overcast sometimes with rain.  In other words, your system really needs to be 3X bigger than what is needed to handle all the weather all the year.  30Kw of panels on the average domestic residence anywhere in the world? Not a hope in hell.
Take into account the matchboxes they are building now and have done is some places for years with tiny foot prints and similarly tiny roof spaces, going to be lucky to get 3Kw literally!

Of course if you live in a place with a lot of cloud/ snow/ rain etc..... forget it.
I have over 20Kwh of solar now and that will be a stretch to get me through winter breaking even with power and I sure as heck don't have an EV to suck down the juice.  this whole " charge at home from your panels " BS is a bit like saying, " No need to buy fruit and veg at the shop, just grow your own in the back yard."
Yeah a FEW can do it but the greater majority can't for one reason or another.

I also don't see the TOU pricing model lasting too long. It's on it's way out here now. People DID change their behavior, Too much for the power/ energy companies liking.  Electric off peak hot water has made a come back. Appliances like dishwashers and washing machines/ Dryers have timers built in, people are buying storage batteries which charge at night during the off peak and feed back at peak times. Busineess that operated in normal hours are now going to night production and paying the penality rates in wages to say fortunes in power use.

There is a link to our power grid generation and consumption I look and laugh at from time to time and the consumption is fast evening out.
Day demand is getting lass as people are running of their own generated solar power and night consumption is going up as everyone wants to take advantage of cheaper rates.

Quote
As someone who owns an electric car in California the annual cost difference between "fueling" an EV and an ICE is a difference of a few hundred dollars.  And as electricity rates increase it's going to be even less.

If one takes into account the higher cost of an EV than a similar ICE the savings would evaporate in most cases.
Resale value is going to be a significan't issue with EV's as well.

Quote
The big advantage with EVs other than BSing people into thinking they are doing something "good" for the planet is they cause the pollution in someone else's backyard.  There is no cost "real" cost savings.

No emissions, environmental or any other benefits either despite what the Cult leaders of the green church preach.

I really wonder how far EV's will get?
Despite the greenwashing, it IS going to take 20years before ev's reach 51% of new car sales.  20 years is a long time in tech. it's also going to be a LOT of money that has to be invested to accomodate them.
I wonder if some new thing might come along in that time and cut the EV legs from under them.  If the Auto industry have success with flogging the new EV tech, first thing they are going to do is go into Apple mode and want to bring out a later product people will want to update that to.  Might be some new fuel all together, main roads and Highways might have cable system that pulls traffic along, maybe someone gets teleportation working?.... Far from a safe bet that nothing will happen in the next 20 year and everyone will be happy with EV's and no one is going to try and overcome their shortfalls and improving transportation.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
 

Offline george80

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3388 on: February 22, 2019, 04:08:24 am »
Nice try but no sigar. You are way off as usual. There are several independent companies working on 3rd generation bio-fuels. These are multi-billion dollar companies which have invested hundreds of millions of their own money into various factories which are up & running today. There is no hype, they don't need investors for money and there are no secrets. Production volumes for US based operations are reported to the EPA.

Perhaps do your homework first before posting nonsense which is easely proven wrong (see the articles and US government websites I've linked to before).

Yawn.  :blah:
Same old Same old.

Multi billion dollar companies are investing hundreds of Millions in Hydrogen and electric as well.
Does that mean it's also going to be the fuel of the future? Can't have electric, Bio AND hydrogen all taking over although I bet each one would tell you the horse THEY are backing will definitely be the winner.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3389 on: February 22, 2019, 04:11:59 am »
Why do you say they are over priced?  Going price for solar systems from companies like Tesla, SunRun, SunPower, Vivint is $3.75 to $4.00 /watt.  The reason for buying overpriced Apple headphones is they are better quality.  I know.  I have six different headphones for my iPhone and the overpriced Apple ones are by far the best in terms of construction, sound quality and noise reduction.  I'm frugal with my money, and feel the over priced Apple headphones are worth it.  Your hearing my vary. 
The going rate for a few panels is about $1/W, with half that not unusual for bulk orders. DIY really brings the price down.

And real audiophiles agree that Apple is especially overpriced for headphones.
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Offline george80

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3390 on: February 22, 2019, 04:16:49 am »

Ha. When I was 16 I would have LOVED to have a car that I could refill for 'free" by just plugging it in at my parents house.  My main limitation driving at that age was not having money to buy gasoline.

And this to me raises another quandry of the scenario of the EV Future.....

Mum, Dad and the 2 Kids ALL want to charge their EV's at the same time because they all have somewhere to be tomorrow.
 Hows that going to work?  4 Charging stations at home?  What's the amp and KWH draw on that going to be?

Oh yeah, you can charge them from your solar panels Right?
Hope you own acreage and have your own solar farm... and it never gets cloudy..... and you can be home during the day.... and there is no winter where you live, just endless sunshine and playful unicorns.   ^-^
 
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Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3391 on: February 22, 2019, 09:54:58 am »
I've had an idea: do the water electrolysis deep down in the Mariana Trench and get the H2 compressed for free. How about that? And you get chlorine too, for free.
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Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3392 on: February 22, 2019, 10:10:53 am »
Nice try but no sigar. You are way off as usual. There are several independent companies working on 3rd generation bio-fuels. These are multi-billion dollar companies which have invested hundreds of millions of their own money into various factories which are up & running today. There is no hype, they don't need investors for money and there are no secrets. Production volumes for US based operations are reported to the EPA.

Perhaps do your homework first before posting nonsense which is easely proven wrong (see the articles and US government websites I've linked to before).
Multi billion dollar companies are investing hundreds of Millions in Hydrogen and electric as well.
Does that mean it's also going to be the fuel of the future? Can't have electric, Bio AND hydrogen all taking over although I bet each one would tell you the horse THEY are backing will definitely be the winner.
It is not that black and white. There will be a market for electric cars, there will be a market for hydrogen cars and bio-fuel (ethanol) allows to keep using existing cars and infrastructure so there is a market for that as well. Depending on where you are you'll see a different mix of these in the future. This means that it is worthwile to invest in these technologies because nowadays companies aren't stuck to selling in a particular part of the world. For example: most of the ethanol the US produces is being exported.

And look at mobile phones. You can't call Apple mainstream but they do manage to offer a premium product and make a good profit. The same goes for Tesla. They are a well-known premium brand but not the market leader (when looking at global EV sales).
« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 11:27:28 am by nctnico »
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Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3393 on: February 22, 2019, 10:13:50 am »
When my oldest turns 16 in a little over 3 years, I plan to give him my Volt and get an EV pick up. Then I can sell my Toyota Tundra, the last pure ICE vehicle I’ll likely ever own.
Just be prepared that your kid's usage scenarios and willingness to put up the limitations of an EV may not match yours... You might end up selling the  Volt and keeping the Tundra.
Ha. When I was 16 I would have LOVED to have a car that I could refill for 'free" by just plugging it in at my parents house.  My main limitation driving at that age was not having money to buy gasoline.
I'm quite sure you'll put a lock on the outlet if your kid starts to run the electricity bill up to hundreds of dollars extra per month. Electricity isn't exactly free. Perhaps that is a valuable lessing you should learn your kids.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3394 on: February 22, 2019, 05:17:18 pm »
Third generation biofuel will suffer from the same cost problems which generally face greenhouse crops ... it's very hard to compete with something grown on arable land, they can just do it so much cheaper. Prices will likely be far far higher than the current benchmark, palm oil.

The greenhouse comparison is apt because you need bioreactors.  To contain the nutrients, to keep out natural algae species (which are much more efficient, because they don't waste so much energy on oil) and to prevent evaporation and steadily rising salinity. But now you need cooling ... and the only low cost cooling near non precious land is the sea/ocean, so if you want to do it on land your locations are limited. Doing it in the sea/ocean presents a whole new set of problems and likely impossible to avoid costs.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3395 on: February 22, 2019, 05:25:15 pm »
Why do you say they are over priced?  Going price for solar systems from companies like Tesla, SunRun, SunPower, Vivint is $3.75 to $4.00 /watt.  The reason for buying overpriced Apple headphones is they are better quality.  I know.  I have six different headphones for my iPhone and the overpriced Apple ones are by far the best in terms of construction, sound quality and noise reduction.  I'm frugal with my money, and feel the over priced Apple headphones are worth it.  Your hearing my vary. 
The going rate for a few panels is about $1/W, with half that not unusual for bulk orders. DIY really brings the price down.

And real audiophiles agree that Apple is especially overpriced for headphones.

If you are willing the sell, and design, permit, install, monitor and maintain a solar panel installation for $1/W I will hire you.  Not only that I have six other family members who would gladly hire you as well.

And because you are such a nice guy in doing all of this for $1/W we will pay you double just to make it worth your while.  When do you want to get started?
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3396 on: February 22, 2019, 05:31:04 pm »
When my oldest turns 16 in a little over 3 years, I plan to give him my Volt and get an EV pick up. Then I can sell my Toyota Tundra, the last pure ICE vehicle I’ll likely ever own.
Just be prepared that your kid's usage scenarios and willingness to put up the limitations of an EV may not match yours... You might end up selling the  Volt and keeping the Tundra.
Ha. When I was 16 I would have LOVED to have a car that I could refill for 'free" by just plugging it in at my parents house.  My main limitation driving at that age was not having money to buy gasoline.
I'm quite sure you'll put a lock on the outlet if your kid starts to run the electricity bill up to hundreds of dollars extra per month. Electricity isn't exactly free. Perhaps that is a valuable lessing you should learn your kids.

Ha, kids today are being told electricty is free from the sun with solar.  They just don’t mention one has to buy the solar panels.  But energy is “free” from the sun, right?
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3397 on: February 22, 2019, 05:53:44 pm »
Nice try but no sigar. You are way off as usual. There are several independent companies working on 3rd generation bio-fuels. These are multi-billion dollar companies which have invested hundreds of millions of their own money into various factories which are up & running today. There is no hype, they don't need investors for money and there are no secrets. Production volumes for US based operations are reported to the EPA.

Perhaps do your homework first before posting nonsense which is easely proven wrong (see the articles and US government websites I've linked to before).
Multi billion dollar companies are investing hundreds of Millions in Hydrogen and electric as well.
Does that mean it's also going to be the fuel of the future? Can't have electric, Bio AND hydrogen all taking over although I bet each one would tell you the horse THEY are backing will definitely be the winner.
It is not that black and white. There will be a market for electric cars, there will be a market for hydrogen cars and bio-fuel (ethanol) allows to keep using existing cars and infrastructure so there is a market for that as well. Depending on where you are you'll see a different mix of these in the future. This means that it is worthwile to invest in these technologies because nowadays companies aren't stuck to selling in a particular part of the world. For example: most of the ethanol the US produces is being exported.

And look at mobile phones. You can't call Apple mainstream but they do manage to offer a premium product and make a good profit. The same goes for Tesla. They are a well-known premium brand but not the market leader (when looking at global EV sales).

I thought you were a old fossil.  Ann old guy like you should know all Ford cars ran on biofuels way back when.

Dude you got me on this one.  What exactly is the market for hydrogen powered cars?  AND what is the benefit of hydrogen fuel when it comes form fossil fuels?  What company or individual is going to want to pay four or five times as much for hydrogen fuel and have to wait 29 minutes to fuel the car?
 

Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3398 on: February 22, 2019, 06:07:06 pm »
The general claim for using Hydrogen is that you can fill it just as fast as an ICE car. For some reason not all hydrogen fueling stations can supply hydrogen fast so fueling takes longer (still the time is much shorter than charging an EV for the same range). I don't know how and why some hydrogen fueling stations are slow and others are fast and how to recognise them. As more hydrogen fueling stations will be built this should become more clear over time.

Whether hydrogen is more expensive or not depends on the fuel prices. In the Netherlands the price of hydrogen is on par with normal fuel prices. My current car is more expensive to run on fuel compared to hydrogen. A more efficient car will be cheaper to run.

And sure hydrogen comes from fossil fuels just like electricity for EVs comes from fossil fuels. Hydrogen and batteries are energy carriers. It is as green as the source of the energy. But that is not a good reason to disqualify either. You have to start somewhere and EVs and hydrogen will probably emit lots of CO2 until nuclear power takes over from coal & gas.

BTW next year Electriq~Fuel will start a pilot project in the Netherlands. Again a website with lots of marketing to emphasize on safety: https://www.electriq.com/technology/ I don't quite trust the '60% water' claim but I have read about other systems which bind hydrogen to form a chemical compound. The hydrogen is released when needed. The advantage is that this system doesn't need high pressure vessels to store the hydrogen. I've come across similar systems so the idea isn't novel. It is like fueling a car with liquid (charged) electrolyte. Once the hydrogen is released the remaining chemical compound is to be recycled. Don't ask me about efficiency numbers. I have none and it seems to me this technology is too new to dig into deeply.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 06:15:00 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3399 on: February 22, 2019, 06:54:11 pm »
When my oldest turns 16 in a little over 3 years, I plan to give him my Volt and get an EV pick up. Then I can sell my Toyota Tundra, the last pure ICE vehicle I’ll likely ever own.
Just be prepared that your kid's usage scenarios and willingness to put up the limitations of an EV may not match yours... You might end up selling the  Volt and keeping the Tundra.
Ha. When I was 16 I would have LOVED to have a car that I could refill for 'free" by just plugging it in at my parents house.  My main limitation driving at that age was not having money to buy gasoline.
I'm quite sure you'll put a lock on the outlet if your kid starts to run the electricity bill up to hundreds of dollars extra per month.

Not a chance. At $0.075/kWh and at most 12 kWh to fill up a completely empty Volt battery overnight, it will not be an issue. You continue to show that you really don’t have a clue about the cost of driving an EV.
 


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