When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?

[Simon]

So you think they are the same and EV's are terrible because they are not way better? assume we use your figures.

[boffin]

In any case, NO EV will ever be cheaper to run than my big old diesel 2.5 ton 4WD that on a real good run gets 10 L/ 100 km. 14-18 /100 when I'm punting the thing around like a sports car.
Efficiency is irrelevant, it's still going to be cheaper to run than any EV out there ever will be anywhere in the world. 

That's like saying my 20 yr old JetA powered 747 is still cheaper to run than an EV; but only because there's isn't such a thing as a 20 yr old electric 747 equivalent.

When you compare a 10yr old small hatchback (ICE) with a 10yr old small hatchback (EV), the EV is cheaper to run.
When you compare a new care (ICE) with a similar new car (EV), the EV is cheaper to run.

Apples to Apples comparisons. (something you and nico seem to avoid at all costs).

[Simon]

They also ignore the 27% of renewable power and the nuclear that are not 48% efficient. Nuclear is out of the equation. Renewables have a very low impact. by the time you are left with the 30% odd of CCGT at 60% not 48% the numbers used are buncum, again!

[nctnico]

In any case, NO EV will ever be cheaper to run than my big old diesel 2.5 ton 4WD that on a real good run gets 10 L/ 100 km. 14-18 /100 when I'm punting the thing around like a sports car.
Efficiency is irrelevant, it's still going to be cheaper to run than any EV out there ever will be anywhere in the world. 

When you compare a new care (ICE) with a similar new car (EV), the EV is cheaper to run.

That is only true as long as you can charge at home at a very low electricity rate.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

So you think they are the same and EV's are terrible because they are not way better? assume we use your figures.

No.

I think all the EV fanbois always ignore vital things, I suspect on purpose, but perhaps it's due to some sort of reality distortion field.

[Simon]

So you think they are the same and EV's are terrible because they are not way better? assume we use your figures.

No.

I think all the EV fanbois always ignore vital things, I suspect on purpose, but perhaps it's due to some sort of reality distortion field.

the same can be said about you. You have consistently distorted facts or just ignored them. What will you do when we run out of fossil fuel?

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

What will you do when we run out of fossil fuel?

It's going to be a huge disaster IMO, as in billions of deaths and hunger because we've got no substitute. Look at the chart here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_energy_consumption and tell me how on earth can we replace all that energy (oil+gas+coal) with... what the hell? Lucky me, I won't be here anymore by then. Fossil fuels are the dog's bollocks. Pure concentrated sun juice.

[Simon]

What will you do when we run out of fossil fuel?

It's going to be a huge disaster IMO, as in billions of deaths and hunger because we've got no substitute. Look at the chart here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_energy_consumption and tell me how on earth can we replace all that energy (oil+gas+coal) with... what the hell? Lucky me, I won't be here anymore by then. Fossil fuels are the dog's bollocks. Pure concentrated sun juice.

So you admit that we will need an alternative but you oppose the alternatives? The world won't wake up the day after we run out and switch to something else like you admit. As great as fossil fuels are we will have to do without them someday but I don't think you care about that.

[Marco]

Look at the chart here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_energy_consumption and tell me how on earth can we replace all that energy (oil+gas+coal) with... what the hell?

The natural resource consumption numbers are just as amazing ... filling a couple of sections of the deserts the US has with solar panels to satisfy the US power consumption is a mega project, but it's hardly impossible. Storage is the bigger problem, we need a good power to X process.

If we get it, nuclear will in my opinion not be able to compete. Though filling the country with nuclear plants is also hardly impossible.

[george80]

In any case, NO EV will ever be cheaper to run than my big old diesel 2.5 ton 4WD that on a real good run gets 10 L/ 100 km. 14-18 /100 when I'm punting the thing around like a sports car.
Efficiency is irrelevant, it's still going to be cheaper to run than any EV out there ever will be anywhere in the world. 

That's like saying my 20 yr old JetA powered 747 is still cheaper to run than an EV; but only because there's isn't such a thing as a 20 yr old electric 747 equivalent.

When you compare a 10yr old small hatchback (ICE) with a 10yr old small hatchback (EV), the EV is cheaper to run.
When you compare a new care (ICE) with a similar new car (EV), the EV is cheaper to run.

Apples to Apples comparisons. (something you and nico seem to avoid at all costs).

HAHAHAHA!

Your Ignorance and desire to always be right makes a mockery of you yet again.  I Drive an ICE. 24 years old now.
It has lower emissions and is cheaper to run than any EV you want to compare it to.
Inescapable Fact.  Live with it.

[george80]

No.

I think all the EV fanbois always ignore vital things, I suspect on purpose, but perhaps it's due to some sort of reality distortion field.

When ever you get into a discussion/ argument with the green washed, the one thing you can GAURANTEE is they will Lie, blow things out of proportion, Ignore relevant facts not condusive to supporting their cult Beliefs and twise and distort every fact to make it look like their religion is the holy one.
Every single time without fail.

Their desperation to push their cult as perfect and beyond reproach is unfailing and the hypocrisy of accusing others of doing what they do better than anyone else would be laughable were it not so pathetic. Argue with them long enough and you'll be able to use their own figures to illustrate the hypocrisy and flaws in their arguments because rarely can they get their own story straight.

The inherent need some have to believe in a miracle and have something to place hope in when there is little to be found anywhere else in their lives is a psychological driving factor and along with fear mongering is what the whole green scam is based on.  Pretty much the weak minded who are followers not people whom question and verify thing and think for themselves.

No matter how many time you show with proof their arguments are flawed and false, they will never accept it and make every excuse to justify their position no matter how ridiculous that is in the face of the fact and evidence presented.

Thankfully the green washing is starting to turn down and loosing intensity.  I'm sure it will be kept going as long as possible given the money made from it but sloooowly people are starting to wake up. The costs are being realized, the benefits are being seen for how questionable and far fetched they are and the rhetoric of the green cult is being questions and coming up short. Way short.
People are realising that the green goals are completely unobtainable in a fashion that does not negatively impede the way of life for most people in the 1st world and are in fact a giant step backwards in living standards and our economies.

I predict there will be a rush to  EV's over the coming few years but once the limitations, real costs and drawbacks become known in the real world, they will taper off in sales severly and run with ICE's and not come near taking over as they are constantly Hyped.

The green cult do not realise they are their own worst enemies atm.  When people buy EV's and are dissapointed because they were over sold and people realise they are not at all what they were hyped up to be, then the negative accounts will start working against them.
And they will be working Hard, real hard.

Change is difficult enough for most people, being disappointed and costing money in the process sets opponents and vocal ones for life who will be only too keen to stop others falling for the same con job and that will go on for 30 years as that's the time it takes for  rumor mills to change.

[ahbushnell]

This whole thing is a broken record.  Same insults over and over.  A bunch of children. 

[NiHaoMike]

Or an unusually hot day and everyone turning on an air conditioner.

Or not since hotter days have more sunlight, thereby increasing solar production.

It's going to be a huge disaster IMO, as in billions of deaths and hunger because we've got no substitute. Look at the chart here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_energy_consumption and tell me how on earth can we replace all that energy (oil+gas+coal) with... what the hell? Lucky me, I won't be here anymore by then. Fossil fuels are the dog's bollocks. Pure concentrated sun juice.

That's a great argument to reduce or eliminate the use of fossil fuels where practical, to conserve them for use where alternatives are not yet practical. For example, they should have required every new car to get at least 30 MPG highway like a decade ago.

[DougSpindler]

No.

I think all the EV fanbois always ignore vital things, I suspect on purpose, but perhaps it's due to some sort of reality distortion field.

When ever you get into a discussion/ argument with the green washed, the one thing you can GAURANTEE is they will Lie, blow things out of proportion, Ignore relevant facts not condusive to supporting their cult Beliefs and twise and distort every fact to make it look like their religion is the holy one.
Every single time without fail.

Their desperation to push their cult as perfect and beyond reproach is unfailing and the hypocrisy of accusing others of doing what they do better than anyone else would be laughable were it not so pathetic. Argue with them long enough and you'll be able to use their own figures to illustrate the hypocrisy and flaws in their arguments because rarely can they get their own story straight.

The inherent need some have to believe in a miracle and have something to place hope in when there is little to be found anywhere else in their lives is a psychological driving factor and along with fear mongering is what the whole green scam is based on.  Pretty much the weak minded who are followers not people whom question and verify thing and think for themselves.

No matter how many time you show with proof their arguments are flawed and false, they will never accept it and make every excuse to justify their position no matter how ridiculous that is in the face of the fact and evidence presented.

Thankfully the green washing is starting to turn down and loosing intensity.  I'm sure it will be kept going as long as possible given the money made from it but sloooowly people are starting to wake up. The costs are being realized, the benefits are being seen for how questionable and far fetched they are and the rhetoric of the green cult is being questions and coming up short. Way short.
People are realising that the green goals are completely unobtainable in a fashion that does not negatively impede the way of life for most people in the 1st world and are in fact a giant step backwards in living standards and our economies.

I predict there will be a rush to  EV's over the coming few years but once the limitations, real costs and drawbacks become known in the real world, they will taper off in sales severly and run with ICE's and not come near taking over as they are constantly Hyped.

The green cult do not realise they are their own worst enemies atm.  When people buy EV's and are dissapointed because they were over sold and people realise they are not at all what they were hyped up to be, then the negative accounts will start working against them.
And they will be working Hard, real hard.

Change is difficult enough for most people, being disappointed and costing money in the process sets opponents and vocal ones for life who will be only too keen to stop others falling for the same con job and that will go on for 30 years as that's the time it takes for  rumor mills to change.

geroge80  I have a lot of respect for you and think you have made many excellent points in your posts.  I'm going to disagree with you on people being disappointed by EVs.  Have you or do you own one?  I was against EVs as you are until we got one.  As much as I wanted to dislike it, I have to admit it's nice.  EVs are nice to drive as well.  I don't think I will ever buy an ICE car ever again.  Am I buying an EV because it's good for the environment?  Heck no.  I think an EV is no better or worse for the environment than an ICE or diesel.  It's not a mater of economics either.  In fuel/energy the EV might save me maybe $750 per year, but I think it's more like $500.  But I do get a $30-$50 saving on my electricity dues to the lower EV rate.  But that's NOT why I would by an EV.  Reason for liking an EV is because I like that it's quite and most important it's convenient.

No more having to look for and waste time at gas stations.  With an ICE that's a once a week waste of time.  With an EV I pull into the garage and plug in.  In the morning my car is fully charged and ready to go.

As for maintenance I guess I'm saving a little.  For my ICE car I only change the only once every other year and that's it.  Oil change is $50, so with an EV I save $25 per year.

In the states where I live EVs very common.  And the city where I have seems like every fourth of fifth car is an EV.  EVs aren't for everyone, but ask someone who has an EV if they like it.  You'll find 9 out of 10 people who own EVs say they will NEVER buy another ICE. 

This isn't a green thing or save the Earth thing either.  It's a personal choice like deciding to buy a car with automatic transmission or manual.  ICE or EV it's just a personal preference.

The other thing no one seems to mention is that cars today are disposable like cell phones and computers.  I think the folks who are driving around in 20+ year old cars are idiots.  Modern cars have many new safety and comfort features one has to ask why someone would something so unsafe.  My second car is a 13 year old car and it has a CD player.  My reason for getting a new car is to get updated technology.  Every time I get in the car I use Google Maps to see what the traffic is like.  Waze to let me know where the police are.  And for entertainment I listen to podcasts.  Cars are all a commodity now and what sets them apart is the technology and the apps.  It's all about the apps.  Apps and convince is why my next car will be an EV.  And like a cell phone or computer in 10 years or so when the batteries aren't doing so just dump the car and get a new one with a "fresh" set of batteries.

So stop with the greens and save the Earthers are the only ones buying cars.  They are not.  Many people buying EVs are doing it because of they are convenient and the technology in them is better. 

[coppice]

We use pumped storage in the UK for peaks. At night I expect the load is pretty stable and that is when you would charge an EV.

Actually, the pumped storage in the UK was built to ride over a sudden failure of a major generating site. That's why it was built with the added cost and complexity to have a very fast turn around from pumping to generating. Storage in other parts of the world has been built primarily for peak mitigation. For example, CLP, one of the power utilities in Hong Kong, has insufficient generating capacity, on purpose. They use their nuclear capacity (actually located in southern China) to pump up a reservoir every night (also located in southern China), and generate from that reservoir during the peak demand each day.

NO!  This is NOT the same thing.  Peaker vs. peak rimes are completely different.  Stored hydro is a way of conserving water and supplying electricity when demands are typically high which is typically during the day and on work days.  It takes time to open the values to let more water flow through the gernerators and get that electricty on the grid.  Likewise if demand unexpectedly decreases during the day it takes time for the valves controlling the amount of water flowing through the generators to be closed.

This can take hours.

Peaker powerplants are completely different.  They are typically natural gas and use jet engines.  If unexpectedly the demand for electricity is greater at a given moment peaker engines are fired up to cover that unexpected demand.  Takes far less time to fire up a jet engine than open a valve at a dam or generate more steam burning coal.

As the demand for electricty decreases the peaker engines are shut off.

If it were not for peaker power generation capabilities power companies would have to always be running there generators at full capacity to cover those unexpected demand.

And to make this more complicated I live in California which is connected to a power grid that covers many states.  There are several hundred power companies which all get there electricty from the same power generating facilities.  Orders for how much much each power company is going to buy at every minute of every day is placed a day in advance so all of the power generating plant know how much to produce. 

Solar and wind are unreliable it makes it hard to know just how much power each power plant and there are hundreds of those as well needs to produce to meet the needs of each power company and the millions of customers.

All it takes to have a large power outage is a large cloud over a large PV solar farm.  Or no wind on a day wind was predicted.  Or an unusually hot day and everyone turning on an air conditioner.

Batteries would be the solution, but as has been pointed out their cost is prohibitive and there capacity is very small.  The figure is something like all of the batteries in the world would supply the world with enough electricity for 10 minutes.

This is why we use fossil fuels.  They are abundant, produce a lot of energy for their size and are inexpensive.  Only energy form that’s more energy rich for its size is nuclear.

Was this intended as I response to what I said? Its seems completely off topic.

[ahbushnell]

Or an unusually hot day and everyone turning on an air conditioner.

Or not since hotter days have more sunlight, thereby increasing solar production.

It's going to be a huge disaster IMO, as in billions of deaths and hunger because we've got no substitute. Look at the chart here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_energy_consumption and tell me how on earth can we replace all that energy (oil+gas+coal) with... what the hell? Lucky me, I won't be here anymore by then. Fossil fuels are the dog's bollocks. Pure concentrated sun juice.

That's a great argument to reduce or eliminate the use of fossil fuels where practical, to conserve them for use where alternatives are not yet practical. For example, they should have required every new car to get at least 30 MPG highway like a decade ago.

The problem is people come home from work near the time the solar production is droping off and turn on the air conditioners and stove etc. 

This link is an example of power demand in california. 

http://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/default.aspx

Notice the dip during the day.  And this is in the winter. 

This is Aug 24, 2018.  Notice the shift to the left.  Day light savings time. 

http://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/default.aspx

[NiHaoMike]

The problem is people come home from work near the time the solar production is droping off and turn on the air conditioners and stove etc. 

Dirt cheap thermal storage solves that problem once there's enough solar to cover all demand. All we need is incentive to invest in it.

[DougSpindler]

The problem is people come home from work near the time the solar production is droping off and turn on the air conditioners and stove etc. 

Dirt cheap thermal storage solves that problem once there's enough solar to cover all demand. All we need is incentive to invest in it.

Should we invest before knowing if it will even work?

[Simon]

geroge80  I have a lot of respect for you and think you have made many excellent points in your posts.  I'm going to disagree with you on people being disappointed by EVs.  Have you or do you own one?  I was against EVs as you are until we got one.  As much as I wanted to dislike it, I have to admit it's nice.  EVs are nice to drive as well.  I don't think I will ever buy an ICE car ever again.  Am I buying an EV because it's good for the environment?  Heck no.  I think an EV is no better or worse for the environment than an ICE or diesel.  It's not a mater of economics either.  In fuel/energy the EV might save me maybe $750 per year, but I think it's more like $500.  But I do get a $30-$50 saving on my electricity dues to the lower EV rate.  But that's NOT why I would by an EV.  Reason for liking an EV is because I like that it's quite and most important it's convenient.

No more having to look for and waste time at gas stations.  With an ICE that's a once a week waste of time.  With an EV I pull into the garage and plug in.  In the morning my car is fully charged and ready to go.

As for maintenance I guess I'm saving a little.  For my ICE car I only change the only once every other year and that's it.  Oil change is $50, so with an EV I save $25 per year.

In the states where I live EVs very common.  And the city where I have seems like every fourth of fifth car is an EV.  EVs aren't for everyone, but ask someone who has an EV if they like it.  You'll find 9 out of 10 people who own EVs say they will NEVER buy another ICE. 

This isn't a green thing or save the Earth thing either.  It's a personal choice like deciding to buy a car with automatic transmission or manual.  ICE or EV it's just a personal preference.

The other thing no one seems to mention is that cars today are disposable like cell phones and computers.  I think the folks who are driving around in 20+ year old cars are idiots.  Modern cars have many new safety and comfort features one has to ask why someone would something so unsafe.  My second car is a 13 year old car and it has a CD player.  My reason for getting a new car is to get updated technology.  Every time I get in the car I use Google Maps to see what the traffic is like.  Waze to let me know where the police are.  And for entertainment I listen to podcasts.  Cars are all a commodity now and what sets them apart is the technology and the apps.  It's all about the apps.  Apps and convince is why my next car will be an EV.  And like a cell phone or computer in 10 years or so when the batteries aren't doing so just dump the car and get a new one with a "fresh" set of batteries.

So stop with the greens and save the Earthers are the only ones buying cars.  They are not.  Many people buying EVs are doing it because of they are convenient and the technology in them is better. 

Thank you! indeed my point also. Even if EV's are same as ICE I would get an EV. And all these stupid petrol heads that mod their cars to get extra torque bla bla bla have to ignore the fact that an EV is a dream in that it has maximum torque from standstill and you average EV is equivalent to a high end ICE - poor suckers. Sadly I do not have a drive so can't charge one or I'd buy a dirt cheap second hand one just to run around in and go to work.

[DougSpindler]

In the San Francisco Bay Area there are a lot of Used EVs on the market.  A fist generation Volt can be purchased for around $10,000.  I know of some early EV car buyers who are their third EV.

Not sure if you have looked at a Tesla, but they are defiantly the leaders in Technology.  With all cars looking alike nowadays the thing that sets cars apart is the tech and the apps.  The fact that it is a car is secondary.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

In the San Francisco Bay Area there are a lot of Used EVs on the market.  A fist generation Volt can be purchased for around $10,000.  I know of some early EV car buyers who are their third EV.

As in Europe too:
https://www.autoscout24.de/lst/opel/ampera?sort=price&desc=0

Nobody wants them because parts and repair are expensive and difficult.

[Simon]

no people are moving to the newer cars with more features and range and the old EV depreciate fast. If i could afford it I would buy the latest EV as it would be a good investment and replace my ICE car but I do not have the money, I can't even afford a new ICE car. But as going to work is such a pain because of the traffic jams I would happily drop £4K on a used EV with 60 miles range as i would use it non stop and only need my ICE car for long journeys like holidays.

[george80]

Let me respond to the last comment first to put the others in perspective:

So stop with the greens and save the Earthers are the only ones buying cars.  They are not.

I agree.
They are the only ones trying to shove them down everyones throats and exaggerate and plain lie about the thing to make them sound better than they actually are.  That's what I get annoyed about, the constant and deceitful peddling of the green bias.

Look at the last few pages of this thread, the EV/ green washed have to convince everyone they are cheaper to run, more efficient... Who give a shit? Not me or you, only the green washed.  We have shown multiple  untruths the EVangalists have pushed but still they insist they have to be superior.
They parrot green mantra and don't know qa thing about cars to know what they are saying is BS.

Not a lot of people care about efficiency and cost to run down to a few cents per mile here or there especially. More people buy cars on the way they look, how many cup holders, the quality of the sound system and the colour than anything else.   

I'm going to disagree with you on people being disappointed by EVs.

That's fair. It was an opinion not a fact

Have you or do you own one?  I was against EVs as you are until we got one.

No, I don't own one and until they become more ICE like they would not suit my preferences and what I look for in a vehicle. I have driven 2, one for over a week.  I did not dislike it but as I have already said, I found it no smoother than an ice due to the road surfaces although for a little car it did go better than I expected.

  It's not a mater of economics either.  In fuel/energy the EV might save me maybe $750 per year, but I think it's more like $500.  But I do get a $30-$50 saving on my electricity dues to the lower EV rate.  But that's NOT why I would by an EV.  Reason for liking an EV is because I like that it's quite and most important it's convenient.

Now this I can respect and admire.
Not trying to shove it down anyones throats they are so superior or something they are not.  Honest opinion and assessment that would endear me tot eh things a lot more than someone constantly trying to talk them up with rubbish I can prove is wrong or exceptionally unlikely.

No more having to look for and waste time at gas stations.  With an ICE that's a once a week waste of time.  With an EV I pull into the garage and plug in.  In the morning my car is fully charged and ready to go.

Fair enough but you are talking to someone that's made their own fuel for 16 years so while I only visit servos for mower and garden equipment fuel, Fueling is not an issue to me.
It brings something to mind again I have considered with EV's though, and that is how women will take them. 
Most women I know HATE putting fuel in a car and will run them on vapor and know exactly how far they can go with the fuel light glaring at them before the things stop.  I wonder if they will be more comfortable plugging the things in or this too will be something to be avoided at all costs?
Plugging in SHOULD be quicker and easier but if it will be more accepted is something to wait and see.

I think most other aspects of EV's women will love.  If I was marketing one, I'd be going back to the classic Ogilvy ad format and headlining a picture of the car with the headline, " You Never have to lift the bonnet OR go to a servo ever again".  I reckon that one header would have them walking out the door.

[/quote] EVs aren't for everyone, [/quote]

Said no greenwashed cult pushing deciple ever....  but it's nice to hear someone state the Obvious when it is rarely otherwise admitted.

The other thing no one seems to mention is that cars today are disposable like cell phones and computers. 

True and that is a valid point but I was still suggest the mentality when buying a major investment like a vehicle IS to think of the thing in either long term ownership like 10 years and / or resale value particularly those that like to turn their vehicles over ever 4-5 years.
I Fully believe the NEW EV you buy today and the next 5 years or so will Plummet in resale value as the avalanche of now models come out over that time and manufacturers will bust a gut like no other time to establish market share and brand leadership.

It gives for the opportunity for the  underdogs and new players to achieve sales and revenues they have never been able to obtain before. I have seen it in other industries.  One brand dominated, the digital age came along, the underdog went all out, established leadership and they will have that forever untill some other tech breakthrough comes along which won't be for decades most likley.

The new models will make massive advances and what seems great today will be looked at with disdain in a few short years.


 [/uote] I think the folks who are driving around in 20+ year old cars are idiots.[/quote]

Well seeing my car is 24 years old, meet an idiot. Several people at least here will Vouch for me in that respect I'm sure. 

[/quote]  It's all about the apps.[/quote]

Ohh boy. You REALLY lost me on that one.  I do things in my game with technology people tell me all the time can't be done even when I show it to them.  As for apps...... 

On the technology,  I drive a 2017 Merc GLA250 regularly. More tech than should be in a car IMHO.
I am very UNcomfortable in the thing, i am very comfortable in my 24 yo truck. Wife loves the merc which is great and she can drive it all she wants.
 I haven't got a clue what it costs per mile in fuel, couldn't care any less if I tried. I know it's real good on fuel but servicing costs.... look out!
Truck Drinks like a fish, costs nothing to run and precious little to maintain. I change the oil 4 times a year, bout a $60 exercise as it takes a LOT of oil and 2 filters aand is a relaxing 15 Min job. I spend another relaxing 2-3 hours on it every year between Xmas and new year  doing the other things like diff oils, changing fuel lines and other yearly things.

I'm not saying this makes it better than an EV, just saying that a lot of the EV hype is not relative to me because I enjoy doing it.
  The Merc would have to be a better car in every way than the truck, but not for me and not for everyone else either. it simply does not suit my personal preferences any more than an EV would. YET. In  10 years time, I might love the things but I need a practical car. Not many people do i'll admit bet that is what -I- want.

I think technology has gone too far in cars. it's main purpose is to make the things dealer dependent so your choice of repairers is non existant. Only the stealership has the magic box to diagnose whats wrong and the only ones to have the parts to fix it.
What the monopoly and price gouging will be in a few years with teh tech built into EV's I can only imagine.

And to spell it out again to those who will spin doctor what I have said ( and anything I say)  I'm not against EV's I'm getting to the point of being Violently against the constant Bullshit and insult to me intelligence the Green cult pushers never let up with.

I think there are going to be HUGE problems with electric transport, none of which I do not believe can be over come but I certainly believe will make any vehicle ownership MUCH more expensive for everyone and have serious social and environmental implications.
I don't believe for a second it will be the happy rainbows and unicon farts transition that they are endlessly prescribed to have.

There will be a LOT of hiccups along the way and I believe in the big picture they  will be no better and the planet will be no better off for having them.

There are a whole lot of issues out there I don't care for and don't care about what people do, as long as they don't try to rub my face in it all the damn time and convert me to their religion using endless Bullshit, they can do what they want and I'll do the same. 

[Simon]

I'm not going to read yet another rant full of exaggeration and lies. Fact is we do need to reduce our emmissions and EV's done right will be more efficient. i too was against them at the start because we did not have efficient power generation but that is changing. You cannot deny that an EV is more efficient. The only downside is where does the power come from. Well that is changing.

To address another lie about average mileage in the UK, sure on average people do not do many miles but plenty do over 100 miles a day. I am sitting opposite one now, he has a 150m round trip to work.

[nctnico]

I'm not going to read yet another rant full of exaggeration and lies. Fact is we do need to reduce our emmissions and EV's done right will be more efficient.

Replace efficient with effective and you are demonstratebly wrong in many parts of the world because the electricity generation produces a lot of CO2. Just compare carbon emissions and you'll have your answer. EVs don't save as much CO2 as they would like us to believe. In China for example the net effect of an EV is negative compared to about any ICE. In Europe an efficient hybrid ICE (Toyota Prius for example which does better than 20km/l in real driving conditions) can beat an EV in most countries. In many countries an EV can be beaten by a reasonably efficient ICE.


From: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1361920916307933 (writtin in October 2018 so fairly recent)

The Dutch government is spending over 700 million euros on tax incentives for EVs. That comes down to 1700 euro per metric ton of CO2. This while the emission rights for one ton of CO2 cost somewhere in the ballpark of 20 euro. What also shouldn't be ignored is that in denser populated areas (no, not city centers but suburbs) people can't charge their EVs at home because they don't have a driveway and even if people have a drive way it will only fit one car. However public charging is going to be expensive which makes EVs unaffordable for most people. So the working man is paying to get technology mainstream which they never will be able to afford. The Dutch politicians are starting to see the light and already put a cap on tax incentives for EVs. The Netherlands is a relatively wealthy country. How are they going to switch to EVs in lesser developed countries? They won't. Even Italy which is the third economy of the EU has no chargin infrastructure to speak of. EVs are hyped to be the solution to CO2 emissions but in reality they won't have much effect at all.

There are other solutions in the making like 3rd generation bio-fuels and hydrogen which don't have the issues EVs have because the cost of the infrastructure is much lower and the cars work like we are used to. No long waits for charging, no messing with cables, no range issues and no looking for charging stations. You even admit this yourself: an EV isn't a replacement for the car you have because you won't use it to go on a holiday.