Author Topic: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?  (Read 257501 times)

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Offline james_s

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #475 on: May 04, 2018, 09:41:22 pm »
But this is also true for an electric vehicle.
The only thing a range gauge can do is present an estimate based on remaining energy (in battery or fuel tank) and the measured consumption for chosen time period (last 10 minutes or whatever).

I never said it wasn't. I think perhaps you're arguing against someone else using my quotes. Whether the fuel is electricity or liquid what I find most useful is a rough indication of the percentage of remaining capacity. If it also tries to estimate distance remaining that's fine too but it's not something I really care about.
 

Online phil from seattle

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #476 on: May 04, 2018, 10:13:40 pm »

Reason for a fuel gauge is because the motor is always running consuming fuel.  It is quite possible and has happened one can have a full tank of fuel and run out of gas without moving a foot.  It's happed in large traffic jams.  There is no relationship between quanity of fuel and distance car can be driven with ICE.

EV different story.  One can sit in an EV for a month in a traffic jam not moving and the distane which can be driven is the same on day one as it is on day 30.  EV only use power when the car is moving, not while it is sitting in traffic.

I think the fuel gauge is more of a historical artifact.  It really was the only way to know how much "range" the early cars actually had and so it is expected even though remaining range really is more sensible.  If you sit at idle for hours, the remaining range display would drop as the fuel is consumed.  I also think that since fuel is a tangible thing and sold in gallons or litres, a volume gauge is expected by consumers (did that 15 gallons really fill my tank?). For mobile electronics we seem to care only what percentage charge the battery has.  Though for EVs, range seems to be what most people care about.

A somewhat funny story about how deeply entrenched gasoline is in the modern midset.  I'd had my Model S for about 6 months and some woman was very curious about it. "What kind of car is that?" "A Tesla."  "Who makes it?" "Uh, Tesla." I explained that it was all electric, explained it had a big battery and showed her the charge port.  Then she says, where do you put the gas?  I said, it doesn't take gas, it's like a cell phone, you charge it. Then I showed her the charge port again. Her face showed deep cognitive dissonance.  Then she said, well, yes you charge it but where do you put the gas? I said "no gas, electricity.  I haven't been to a gas station since I bought the car".  She was clearly struggling with the concept.  I smiled, got in the car and squeeked tires as I peeled out. I laughed all the way home.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #477 on: May 04, 2018, 10:45:49 pm »
consumers of vehicles are not usually very technical.  you want to have consumers do their OWN calculations to come up with the TARGET metric of 'distance left' ?
Do ICE cars have a range indicator? No, they have a fuel gauge! That has worked well for decades and by your own experience (which automatically adjusts for your driving style and terrain) you know how far you can drive given the fuel guage read out.
Reason for a fuel gauge is because the motor is always running consuming fuel.  It is quite possible and has happened one can have a full tank of fuel and run out of gas without moving a foot.  It's happed in large traffic jams.  There is no relationship between quanity of fuel and distance car can be driven with ICE.

EV different story.  One can sit in an EV for a month in a traffic jam not moving and the distane which can be driven is the same on day one as it is on day 30.  EV only use power when the car is moving, not while it is sitting in traffic.
That is wrong. No, it is utter bullsh*t. An EV will use power even when it is sitting idle. The dashboard and all the other electronics (and probably heating/EC) will have to work even when not moving so there really isn't any difference between the two. If you turn an ICE car off completely you can also sit in a traffic jam for a month. But without heat/AC, no lights and no radio...

The bottom line is: range indicators (hence the word indicator!) cannot be made accurate enough to be useful. Think about it for a couple of hours before posting. It can't be done because it is trying to predict the future with too many unknowns.

Now throw range anxiety in the mix and the chaos is complete. Just as Boffin noted he used 'less range' than the car expected. But it can also be the other way around. Use 'more range' than expected and then people start to panic. Can I get home??? If you have a charge/fuel gauge then you quickly learn from experience if it is enough to make it home or not. Sometimes old technology just works together with our brains in a really clever way. IF accurate range gauges where possible they would have been fitted in every ICE car for decades and nobody even rememberer the good old fuel gauge.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2018, 10:58:55 pm by nctnico »
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Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #478 on: May 04, 2018, 10:55:23 pm »
consumers of vehicles are not usually very technical.  you want to have consumers do their OWN calculations to come up with the TARGET metric of 'distance left' ?
Do ICE cars have a range indicator? No, they have a fuel gauge! That has worked well for decades and by your own experience (which automatically adjusts for your driving style and terrain) you know how far you can drive given the fuel guage read out.
Reason for a fuel gauge is because the motor is always running consuming fuel.  It is quite possible and has happened one can have a full tank of fuel and run out of gas without moving a foot.  It's happed in large traffic jams.  There is no relationship between quanity of fuel and distance car can be driven with ICE.

EV different story.  One can sit in an EV for a month in a traffic jam not moving and the distane which can be driven is the same on day one as it is on day 30.  EV only use power when the car is moving, not while it is sitting in traffic.
That is wrong. No, it is utter bullsh*t. An EV will use power even when it is sitting idle. The dashboard and all the other electronics (and probably heating/EC) will have to work even when not moving so there really isn't any difference between the two. If you turn an ICE car off completely you can also sit in a traffic jam for a month. But without heat/AC, no lights and no radio...

The bottom line is: range indicators (hence the word indicator!) cannot be made accurate enough to be useful. Think about it for a couple of hours before posting. It can't be done because it is trying to predict the future with too many unknowns.

There are two battery banks in the Volt.  One provides power to the drive train, and the other to is for the driver/passenger conviences.  So it is quite possible a Volt could sit in traffic not move an inch and the power train battereis would be fully charged.


 

Online phil from seattle

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #479 on: May 05, 2018, 04:12:37 am »
That is wrong. No, it is utter bullsh*t. An EV will use power even when it is sitting idle. The dashboard and all the other electronics (and probably heating/EC) will have to work even when not moving so there really isn't any difference between the two. If you turn an ICE car off completely you can also sit in a traffic jam for a month. But without heat/AC, no lights and no radio...

The bottom line is: range indicators (hence the word indicator!) cannot be made accurate enough to be useful. Think about it for a couple of hours before posting. It can't be done because it is trying to predict the future with too many unknowns.

Now throw range anxiety in the mix and the chaos is complete. Just as Boffin noted he used 'less range' than the car expected. But it can also be the other way around. Use 'more range' than expected and then people start to panic. Can I get home??? If you have a charge/fuel gauge then you quickly learn from experience if it is enough to make it home or not. Sometimes old technology just works together with our brains in a really clever way. IF accurate range gauges where possible they would have been fitted in every ICE car for decades and nobody even rememberer the good old fuel gauge.

Have you actually driven an EV for any length of time more than just a test drive?  I have my doubts.  Drive an EV for a couple of weeks and see how your thought process changes.

Range displays in ICEs are actually pretty much ubiquitous now.  But, I don't see any real difference between range and volume (fuel or charge). Neither can be accurate because you can't predict driving conditions and driver behavior. But most of the algorithms take into account recent fuel/charge consumption and can be fairly good for consistent driving. When either range or volume gets small, you need to do something about it. A driver gets a sense of how far they can go with a give range or volume left.  Frankly, range doesn't need to be even close to precise to be useful, just like a fuel tank gauge is incredibly vague.
 

Offline paulca

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #480 on: May 05, 2018, 07:29:35 am »
My car has a fuel gauge and a range remaining.  The range remaining adjusts based on average consumption (over a sliding window I assume).  When I had my car on a track it read 150miles when I arrived, but after 10 laps (12 miles), it read 50miles to go.  However I was still able to do another 10 laps and drive the 30 miles home with petrol to spare.
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Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #481 on: May 05, 2018, 10:31:40 am »
I wonder if this is being done for two reasons.
1 - We have the technology to do this now.
2 - The earache of muscle cars which consume a gallon of gas full throttle in 45 seconds are a thing of the past and the car companies and possibly with government influence is using this to have us drive more efficiently/
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #482 on: May 05, 2018, 10:37:15 am »
That is wrong. No, it is utter bullsh*t. An EV will use power even when it is sitting idle. The dashboard and all the other electronics (and probably heating/EC) will have to work even when not moving so there really isn't any difference between the two. If you turn an ICE car off completely you can also sit in a traffic jam for a month. But without heat/AC, no lights and no radio...

The bottom line is: range indicators (hence the word indicator!) cannot be made accurate enough to be useful. Think about it for a couple of hours before posting. It can't be done because it is trying to predict the future with too many unknowns.

Now throw range anxiety in the mix and the chaos is complete. Just as Boffin noted he used 'less range' than the car expected. But it can also be the other way around. Use 'more range' than expected and then people start to panic. Can I get home??? If you have a charge/fuel gauge then you quickly learn from experience if it is enough to make it home or not. Sometimes old technology just works together with our brains in a really clever way. IF accurate range gauges where possible they would have been fitted in every ICE car for decades and nobody even rememberer the good old fuel gauge.

Have you actually driven an EV for any length of time more than just a test drive?  I have my doubts.  Drive an EV for a couple of weeks and see how your thought process changes.

Range displays in ICEs are actually pretty much ubiquitous now.  But, I don't see any real difference between range and volume (fuel or charge). .... just like a fuel tank gauge is incredibly vague.
Sorry but this is not about EV versus ICE so there is no need to adjust any thought process. I'm just pointing out a problem. The fact is that for both EV and ICE the energy consumption can be measured accurately. But as Paulca already noted the range prediction is always based on the past and not the future. IMHO this is a problem for widespread EV adoption because it makes EVs unreliable (IIRC some people even returned their EVs to the dealer and got their money back because of this).
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online phil from seattle

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #483 on: May 05, 2018, 05:07:41 pm »
Sorry but this is not about EV versus ICE so there is no need to adjust any thought process. I'm just pointing out a problem. The fact is that for both EV and ICE the energy consumption can be measured accurately. But as Paulca already noted the range prediction is always based on the past and not the future. IMHO this is a problem for widespread EV adoption because it makes EVs unreliable (IIRC some people even returned their EVs to the dealer and got their money back because of this).

Not about EVs but it is about EVs??

I think you are trying way too hard to come up with reasons against EVs. Frankly, range display is no different for EVs than ICEs.  It is only approximate due to numerous well flogged dead horse factors. I seriously doubt it was ever claimed to be different.

I'd like to see your references for people returning EVs because of the lack of "accurate range indication". That just doesn't pass the sniff test. It's certainly not an issue in 2018.  I'd believe people returned early EVs because of short max range (<100 miles or 160 km is a problem, IMHO) but lack of accurate range remaining indication, not likely.  I think it's more likely that people refused to buy an EV that didn't have enough range.  200 miles seems to be about the sweet spot.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #484 on: May 05, 2018, 05:35:48 pm »
Sorry but this is not about EV versus ICE so there is no need to adjust any thought process. I'm just pointing out a problem. The fact is that for both EV and ICE the energy consumption can be measured accurately. But as Paulca already noted the range prediction is always based on the past and not the future. IMHO this is a problem for widespread EV adoption because it makes EVs unreliable (IIRC some people even returned their EVs to the dealer and got their money back because of this).

Not about EVs but it is about EVs??
Put your reading glasses on:
Sorry but this is not about EV versus ICE so there is no need to adjust any thought process.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #485 on: May 05, 2018, 06:13:42 pm »
Sorry but this is not about EV versus ICE so there is no need to adjust any thought process. I'm just pointing out a problem. The fact is that for both EV and ICE the energy consumption can be measured accurately. But as Paulca already noted the range prediction is always based on the past and not the future. IMHO this is a problem for widespread EV adoption because it makes EVs unreliable (IIRC some people even returned their EVs to the dealer and got their money back because of this).
While a few ICE cars show the number of litres of fuel in the tank, most just give a vague analogue measure of the fraction of the tank occupied by fuel. What all modern cars, ICE and EV, give as a precise measurement is an estimate of remaining distance to an empty tank or battery, based on historic information, and they show the miles/kilometres to that point. If you believe the future of a car is likely to be different from its past, see a physics teacher. These estimates are not perfect, but they are what people need. If you are driving an unfamiliar car the amount of fuel remaining doesn't mean a lot, but distance to empty tank is meaningful to all. We all know that if we are heavy footed we won't get the distance displayed. Only a very naive person would expect otherwise. Its a good starting point for estimating where you need to find your next gas station, though.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #486 on: May 05, 2018, 06:37:06 pm »
That is wrong. No, it is utter bullsh*t. An EV will use power even when it is sitting idle. The dashboard and all the other electronics (and probably heating/EC) will have to work even when not moving so there really isn't any difference between the two. If you turn an ICE car off completely you can also sit in a traffic jam for a month. But without heat/AC, no lights and no radio...

The bottom line is: range indicators (hence the word indicator!) cannot be made accurate enough to be useful. Think about it for a couple of hours before posting. It can't be done because it is trying to predict the future with too many unknowns.

Now throw range anxiety in the mix and the chaos is complete. Just as Boffin noted he used 'less range' than the car expected. But it can also be the other way around. Use 'more range' than expected and then people start to panic. Can I get home??? If you have a charge/fuel gauge then you quickly learn from experience if it is enough to make it home or not. Sometimes old technology just works together with our brains in a really clever way. IF accurate range gauges where possible they would have been fitted in every ICE car for decades and nobody even rememberer the good old fuel gauge.

Have you actually driven an EV for any length of time more than just a test drive?  I have my doubts.  Drive an EV for a couple of weeks and see how your thought process changes.

Range displays in ICEs are actually pretty much ubiquitous now.  But, I don't see any real difference between range and volume (fuel or charge). .... just like a fuel tank gauge is incredibly vague.
Sorry but this is not about EV versus ICE so there is no need to adjust any thought process. I'm just pointing out a problem. The fact is that for both EV and ICE the energy consumption can be measured accurately. But as Paulca already noted the range prediction is always based on the past and not the future. IMHO this is a problem for widespread EV adoption because it makes EVs unreliable (IIRC some people even returned their EVs to the dealer and got their money back because of this).

There no problem......  Ever here the phrase, "Youf mileage may vary." ?   Applies to both ICE or EV. 


Thing is with an ICE if it's sitting in traffic it's comsuming fuel producing heat without going anywhere.  An EV can sit in traffic and not cosume any energy.



 





 

Offline nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #487 on: May 05, 2018, 06:45:06 pm »
Thing is with an ICE if it's sitting in traffic it's comsuming fuel producing heat without going anywhere.  An EV can sit in traffic and not cosume any energy.
Repeating it doesn't make BS smell less foul. Your Volt needs power to supply the electronics. Google tells me that the secondary battery is only powering non-essential systems which leaves the main battery to power essential systems and thus lose charge even when sitting still in a traffic jam. Unless you shut the entire car down but an ICE based car is just the same. You don't have to leave the engine of an ICE car running idle in a long traffic jam.

@coppice: I agree with you and driving in a strange car is definitely a reason to make sure it is topped up before leaving and knowing it's range in order not take any chances. However what I see is that when it comes to EVs the remaining range is used much more prominently compared to ICE cars while the inaccuracies and problems are still the same. See the article the NY times journalist wrote about driving a Tesla during the winter. It is all about managing expectations and IMHO it is better to show a vague indication so people take precautions than showing an exact number which has a large error.
https://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/automobiles/stalled-on-the-ev-highway.html
« Last Edit: May 05, 2018, 06:53:10 pm by nctnico »
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Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #488 on: May 05, 2018, 07:00:58 pm »
Thing is with an ICE if it's sitting in traffic it's comsuming fuel producing heat without going anywhere.  An EV can sit in traffic and not cosume any energy.
Repeating it doesn't make BS smell less foul. Your Volt needs power to supply the electronics. Google tells me that the secondary battery is only powering non-essential systems which leaves the main battery to power essential systems and thus lose charge even when sitting still in a traffic jam. Unless you shut the entire car down but an ICE based car is just the same. You don't have to leave the engine of an ICE car running idle in a long traffic jam.


You explination doesn't pass the BS smell test.  Try learnign about EV cars and how they are designed.  Interesting you trust what Goolge is telling you.  Guess it must be true, right?  Try Googling Free Energy.  Becase that's what my Volt has when sitting in traffic.

My statement was an ICE sitting in traffic buns fuel while sitting in traffic.  Instead of moving the car and getting MPG the fuel is converted to heat energy.

If an EV is not moving how are the pwer train batteries losing energy? And thus reducing its' range?  Where exactly are those electrons going?  EV while sitting in traffic do not prduce heat energy like ICE.

Are you saying EVs power train battereis are losing change to anti-free energy?

If the car's not moving, the power train batteries aren't being discharged.  That passed the BS test.

I have sat in traffic for hundreds of hours and I have yet seen any ICE driver turn their engine off to save any hydrocarbons.  On the otherhand when I'm sitting in traffic in my Volt I'm not consumting any watts from the pwertrain battereis.  Now that passes the BS test and onbeys the laws of thermodynamic and physics.



 
 

Offline glarsson

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #489 on: May 05, 2018, 07:43:27 pm »
Try Googling Free Energy.  Becase that's what my Volt has when sitting in traffic.
For your explanations to be true your Volt has to have some of that magic Free Energy.

AC, heating, lights, computers, navigation system, entertainment system, seat heating, battery cooling/heating, phone charging, etc all require energy when stationary. You can't make that fact disappear by saying that those components are supplied from the 12V lead acid battery as that battery has to be charged by energy taken from the big battery. So, unless your Volt has solved the problem of free energy it will drain the big battery when sitting in traffic.
 
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #490 on: May 05, 2018, 07:49:07 pm »
I have sat in traffic for hundreds of hours and I have yet seen any ICE driver turn their engine off to save any hydrocarbons.
Start-stop systems on ICE cars have been standard for a while now so there you go.
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Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #491 on: May 05, 2018, 07:54:05 pm »
Try Googling Free Energy.  Becase that's what my Volt has when sitting in traffic.
For your explanations to be true your Volt has to have some of that magic Free Energy.

AC, heating, lights, computers, navigation system, entertainment system, seat heating, battery cooling/heating, phone charging, etc all require energy when stationary. You can't make that fact disappear by saying that those components are supplied from the 12V lead acid battery as that battery has to be charged by energy taken from the big battery. So, unless your Volt has solved the problem of free energy it will drain the big battery when sitting in traffic.

Dude did you not read the two other posts?  NO!  You are wrong.   

Lights, computers, navigation system, entertainment system, seat heating, phone charging are NOT Let me say that again, NOT powered by the drive train batteries.  If the drive train batteries ARE NOT powering any of these systems there is no decrease in range or miles the car can be driven when sitting. 

Can't say that about an ICE.  An ICE when running is always consuming fuel in traffic which is continually decreasing the range or amount of miels the car can be driven when in traffic.

 




 

Offline james_s

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #492 on: May 05, 2018, 08:12:24 pm »
Wait a second, if they're not powered by the drive train batteries then what are they powered by and where does that energy come from? If this is a vehicle with both electric and ICE then those accessories will be powered by one of the other system and either way running them is going to decrease range to some degree, the laws of energy mandate that. If you're sitting in traffic running all that stuff you absolutely are consuming energy that comes from *somewhere*. I do suspect though that the energy consumed by all this stuff is considerably less than the energy consumed by idling a conventional ICE.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #493 on: May 05, 2018, 08:32:18 pm »
Wait a second, if they're not powered by the drive train batteries then what are they powered by and where does that energy come from? If this is a vehicle with both electric and ICE then those accessories will be powered by one of the other system and either way running them is going to decrease range to some degree, the laws of energy mandate that. If you're sitting in traffic running all that stuff you absolutely are consuming energy that comes from *somewhere*. I do suspect though that the energy consumed by all this stuff is considerably less than the energy consumed by idling a conventional ICE.
\
As has been stated several times EVs or at least the Volt has 2 banks of batteries.  One for the power train and another for the creature comforts.  In a Volt one can have a fully charged power train battery bank and not be able to power-on the car if the other battery bank is dead.  They are completely independent of each other. 

Just how much energy do you think it takes to pwoer an EV when stopped in traffic?  All that's being powered during daylight hours are the computers, one display and in my case the sound system.  Is that even 100 watts?  (I don't know, but it's not a lot.)  Now compare that to an ICE.  How much heat is being generated by the running enging sitting in traffic?  Again IDK for sure, but I'm guessing 2,000 - 5,000 watts?  I'm thinking probably more.

I know when I park my ICE car in the garage the entire garage heats up.  WHen I park my EV there's no increase in temperature.

Use some critical thinking skills.  ICE cars when running generate a tremedous amout of heat.  Aren't ICE only 20% or less efficient? 
How efficient is an electric motor?  Not eactly sure but aren't they 75% or more efficent?  And then EVs have regenitive breaking, so KE gets coverneted back to PE when slowing down.  To slow an ICE down only way to do it is to generate more heat with the breaking system which decreased range.

Does that pass your BS test?

 

Online phil from seattle

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #494 on: May 05, 2018, 08:40:26 pm »
Thing is with an ICE if it's sitting in traffic it's comsuming fuel producing heat without going anywhere.  An EV can sit in traffic and not cosume any energy.
Repeating it doesn't make BS smell less foul. Your Volt needs power to supply the electronics. Google tells me that the secondary battery is only powering non-essential systems which leaves the main battery to power essential systems and thus lose charge even when sitting still in a traffic jam. Unless you shut the entire car down but an ICE based car is just the same. You don't have to leave the engine of an ICE car running idle in a long traffic jam.

@coppice: I agree with you and driving in a strange car is definitely a reason to make sure it is topped up before leaving and knowing it's range in order not take any chances. However what I see is that when it comes to EVs the remaining range is used much more prominently compared to ICE cars while the inaccuracies and problems are still the same. See the article the NY times journalist wrote about driving a Tesla during the winter. It is all about managing expectations and IMHO it is better to show a vague indication so people take precautions than showing an exact number which has a large error.
https://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/automobiles/stalled-on-the-ev-highway.html

You should read the follow up articles on that.  The author deliberately ran it out.  Tesla read the black box data and published it showing that he drove past at least one SC when he was almost out. The car at that point would have been flashing "charge" at him as he drove.
 

Offline Neilm

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #495 on: May 05, 2018, 08:45:36 pm »
Aren't ICE only 20% or less efficient? 
How efficient is an electric motor?  Not eactly sure but aren't they 75% or more efficent?

Electric motors are usually over 90% - not sure what losses there would be in the gearing of the motor to the wheels (contry to popular thought there is a gearbox - usually a fixed ratio).

IIRC, efficient ICE cars engines are in the region of 30% - possibly higher at specific RPMs
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Offline nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #496 on: May 05, 2018, 08:55:22 pm »
Thing is with an ICE if it's sitting in traffic it's comsuming fuel producing heat without going anywhere.  An EV can sit in traffic and not cosume any energy.
Repeating it doesn't make BS smell less foul. Your Volt needs power to supply the electronics. Google tells me that the secondary battery is only powering non-essential systems which leaves the main battery to power essential systems and thus lose charge even when sitting still in a traffic jam. Unless you shut the entire car down but an ICE based car is just the same. You don't have to leave the engine of an ICE car running idle in a long traffic jam.

@coppice: I agree with you and driving in a strange car is definitely a reason to make sure it is topped up before leaving and knowing it's range in order not take any chances. However what I see is that when it comes to EVs the remaining range is used much more prominently compared to ICE cars while the inaccuracies and problems are still the same. See the article the NY times journalist wrote about driving a Tesla during the winter. It is all about managing expectations and IMHO it is better to show a vague indication so people take precautions than showing an exact number which has a large error.
https://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/automobiles/stalled-on-the-ev-highway.html
You should read the follow up articles on that.  The author deliberately ran it out.  Tesla read the black box data and published it showing that he drove past at least one SC when he was almost out. The car at that point would have been flashing "charge" at him as he drove.
I already read the follow up article with the graphs from Tesla themselves showing that actual range was dropping faster than predicted range. There is no argueing around the fact that happened. If Tesla would have told the author of the article to take the range indication with a large grain of salt and add at least 20% extra then he wouldn't not have ran out. Again: managing expectations! If you show people a number which can be perceived as accurate they'll assume it is correct.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #497 on: May 05, 2018, 09:03:07 pm »
As has been stated several times EVs or at least the Volt has 2 banks of batteries.  One for the power train and another for the creature comforts.  In a Volt one can have a fully charged power train battery bank and not be able to power-on the car if the other battery bank is dead.  They are completely independent of each other. 

Does that pass your BS test?
I think you really need to read about how cars actually work. What you wrote doesn't make any sense and it is also wrong. The Volt can still drive if the secondary (12V) battery is dead which means that the primary electronics and mandatory stuff like lights are powered from the drive train battery. Ergo it will use power when it is sitting idle while being switched on. There is no way around that. Besides that the battery management electronics will slowly but steadily drain the battery as well. It will take long but it will happen.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline glarsson

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #498 on: May 05, 2018, 09:07:26 pm »
Dude did you not read the two other posts?  NO!  You are wrong.   

Lights, computers, navigation system, entertainment system, seat heating, phone charging are NOT Let me say that again, NOT powered by the drive train batteries.
So we have two options.
1) The "creature comfort battery" has a very large capacity and can power AC, heating, vehicle electronics (a couple of hundred watts in modern vehicles) while standing still in a traffic jam for weeks.
2) The "creature comfort battery" is charged from the "drive train battery" and the range is reduced even if standing still in a traffic jam.

http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?5409-Auxillary-Battery
Quote
During operation, the 12 Volt battery's voltage is maintained by the "accessory power module" (APM) whenever the Volt is "ON", and maintained by the main battery charger assembly (On-Board Charging Module) when the Volt is plugged in and charging is ACTIVE (steady green LED). The APM is a DC to DC converter that takes high voltage (380V?) from the Volt's traction battery and converts it to ~13.0-15.5 Volts in order to maintain the low voltage accessory loads (including the Volt's computers and modules). It also charges the 12V system's battery, also know as an "absorbant glass mat" (AGM) battery. The 12V battery's voltage is maintained when the car is running or charging (by the APM or charger, respectively), but not when parked and unplugged.

Am I still wrong?
 

Online phil from seattle

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #499 on: May 06, 2018, 12:47:56 am »
Thing is with an ICE if it's sitting in traffic it's comsuming fuel producing heat without going anywhere.  An EV can sit in traffic and not cosume any energy.
Repeating it doesn't make BS smell less foul. Your Volt needs power to supply the electronics. Google tells me that the secondary battery is only powering non-essential systems which leaves the main battery to power essential systems and thus lose charge even when sitting still in a traffic jam. Unless you shut the entire car down but an ICE based car is just the same. You don't have to leave the engine of an ICE car running idle in a long traffic jam.

@coppice: I agree with you and driving in a strange car is definitely a reason to make sure it is topped up before leaving and knowing it's range in order not take any chances. However what I see is that when it comes to EVs the remaining range is used much more prominently compared to ICE cars while the inaccuracies and problems are still the same. See the article the NY times journalist wrote about driving a Tesla during the winter. It is all about managing expectations and IMHO it is better to show a vague indication so people take precautions than showing an exact number which has a large error.
https://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/automobiles/stalled-on-the-ev-highway.html
You should read the follow up articles on that.  The author deliberately ran it out.  Tesla read the black box data and published it showing that he drove past at least one SC when he was almost out. The car at that point would have been flashing "charge" at him as he drove.
I already read the follow up article with the graphs from Tesla themselves showing that actual range was dropping faster than predicted range. There is no argueing around the fact that happened. If Tesla would have told the author of the article to take the range indication with a large grain of salt and add at least 20% extra then he wouldn't not have ran out. Again: managing expectations! If you show people a number which can be perceived as accurate they'll assume it is correct.
You are grasping at straws. The car said he should charge and he didn't. In what world would that not be final authority? In a gas car if the low fuel indicator was lit, it wouldn't be the driver's fault he ran out of gas???

And by the way, all the Tesla literature since 2012 (probably earlier) has said range is dependent on a number of factors - weather, terrain, driver behavior.  But by all means, ignore that.
 


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