Author Topic: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?  (Read 248784 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline ahbushnell

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 622
  • Country: us
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #550 on: May 09, 2018, 02:13:48 pm »
PG&E has many lakess and water reseviors for storing water.  The water is then released and creates electricty/hydroelectric power.  At night when people aren't using the electricty they pump the water back up hill to so it can be used over and over.  These resivor levels can vary 3 or 4 feet in one afternoon when electricity demands are high.
If I Google "PG&E pumped storage" all the references I get seem to be to a single pumped storage system called Helms. Why don't the others show up? Are they not actually owned by PG&E?
He is confusing pumped storage with hydro.


PG&E has many energy storage reservoirs in California.  Helms is just one of many.

Most have not looked too hard.  All did was look on PG&E's web site to see they list over 100 energy storage reservoirs in California’s Sierra Nevada mountain range.  And their web site states there are 67 powerhouses and collectively provide clean, green, non-polluting renewable electricity to over 4,000,000 homes.

Any idea why he thinks the power compnaies don't have energy storage?  They sure as heck do.

 
But do they pump water back up stream to store energy or are they just using runoff that fills the reservior?
 

Offline DougSpindler

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1740
  • Country: us
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #551 on: May 09, 2018, 02:37:31 pm »
PG&E has many lakess and water reseviors for storing water.  The water is then released and creates electricty/hydroelectric power.  At night when people aren't using the electricty they pump the water back up hill to so it can be used over and over.  These resivor levels can vary 3 or 4 feet in one afternoon when electricity demands are high.
If I Google "PG&E pumped storage" all the references I get seem to be to a single pumped storage system called Helms. Why don't the others show up? Are they not actually owned by PG&E?
He is confusing pumped storage with hydro.


PG&E has many energy storage reservoirs in California.  Helms is just one of many.

Most have not looked too hard.  All did was look on PG&E's web site to see they list over 100 energy storage reservoirs in California’s Sierra Nevada mountain range.  And their web site states there are 67 powerhouses and collectively provide clean, green, non-polluting renewable electricity to over 4,000,000 homes.

Any idea why he thinks the power compnaies don't have energy storage?  They sure as heck do.

 
But do they pump water back up stream to store energy or are they just using runoff that fills the reservior?


They have both. 
Obviously the rain filled resivors are huge and have a much larger capacity than these smaaler holding resiveors.  It might take days or weeks for the water level in large resivors to drop a foot.  But the holding resivors in one day the water level might change 3 or 4 feet in one day.

One also need to remember many of these resivors pre-date electricity.  They are located in the Sierra foothills of Californa whihc was gold country.  These resiviors were initially buil for hydrolic gold mining, ice (blocks of ice were cut and sent to San Francisco for refrigeration, and for drinking water/agriculture.  It would be another 60 - 100 years before these resivors would be used for produceing electricity.

Bottom line......  These smaller resivors are used like batteries to store energy which can be easily converted to electrity by opening a value.  As the water level in the resivors are drained they can be recharged by pumping water, which was used to produce electrity during the day, back into the resivor.

The amount of electricity stored in these rechargable resivors is very inexpensive and environmentaly friendly compared to the chemial energy stored in batteries.  And unlike batteries the resiviors are beatuiful lakes which provide drinking water, fishing, boating, camping etc.  All somthing you can't do with a battery.   
 
 And these lakes also provide drinking water


 

Offline ahbushnell

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 622
  • Country: us
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #552 on: May 09, 2018, 02:42:34 pm »
PG&E has many lakess and water reseviors for storing water.  The water is then released and creates electricty/hydroelectric power.  At night when people aren't using the electricty they pump the water back up hill to so it can be used over and over.  These resivor levels can vary 3 or 4 feet in one afternoon when electricity demands are high.
If I Google "PG&E pumped storage" all the references I get seem to be to a single pumped storage system called Helms. Why don't the others show up? Are they not actually owned by PG&E?
He is confusing pumped storage with hydro.


PG&E has many energy storage reservoirs in California.  Helms is just one of many.

Most have not looked too hard.  All did was look on PG&E's web site to see they list over 100 energy storage reservoirs in California’s Sierra Nevada mountain range.  And their web site states there are 67 powerhouses and collectively provide clean, green, non-polluting renewable electricity to over 4,000,000 homes.

Any idea why he thinks the power compnaies don't have energy storage?  They sure as heck do.

 
But do they pump water back up stream to store energy or are they just using runoff that fills the reservior?


They have both. 
Obviously the rain filled resivors are huge and have a much larger capacity than these smaaler holding resiveors.  It might take days or weeks for the water level in large resivors to drop a foot.  But the holding resivors in one day the water level might change 3 or 4 feet in one day.

One also need to remember many of these resivors pre-date electricity.  They are located in the Sierra foothills of Californa whihc was gold country.  These resiviors were initially buil for hydrolic gold mining, ice (blocks of ice were cut and sent to San Francisco for refrigeration, and for drinking water/agriculture.  It would be another 60 - 100 years before these resivors would be used for produceing electricity.

Bottom line......  These smaller resivors are used like batteries to store energy which can be easily converted to electrity by opening a value.  As the water level in the resivors are drained they can be recharged by pumping water, which was used to produce electrity during the day, back into the resivor.

The amount of electricity stored in these rechargable resivors is very inexpensive and environmentaly friendly compared to the chemial energy stored in batteries.  And unlike batteries the resiviors are beatuiful lakes which provide drinking water, fishing, boating, camping etc.  All somthing you can't do with a battery.   
 
 And these lakes also provide drinking water
That would mean they would need two reservoirs.  One up stream and another down stream as a source to pump water from when they are storing energy.  Is there that many pairs of reservoirs? 
 

Offline DougSpindler

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1740
  • Country: us
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #553 on: May 09, 2018, 02:54:14 pm »
If I could walk into a dealer and buy a brand new 80s-90s car today I absolutely would. You're absolutely right, cars today transport me just like cars did back then,  and the fuel economy of my 1990 car is nearly as good as many similar modern cars.
I sometimes drive one of my 80s car and they are still manufactured to this day as they moved factory to Uzbekistan ;D But I don't think you can buy one at "developed country" as they have still same engines and safety features as back then so wont pass today tests
And 1.5l 8 valve petrol engine with 3 speed automatic will run forever and parts are plentiful even old stock or can be ordered new if you wait few weeks
It is fun to drive
But safety is terrible especially at front corner crash and side impact is always awful without side airbags


And for topic question:
I would like to have and electric car but today is still TOC higher than gasoline car
When it will be cheaper I'll be happy to get one

And I bet that car pollutes the air like crazy.  You one car probably produces more air pollution than 200 modern cars.
So not only are you driving a car that's not safe, it also produces a lots of pollution.

Car might be fun to drive and all of that, but like using an old outdated computer/smartphone which could easily be attacked by cybercrimianls your actions affect all of society.

Why drive a car that pollutes the city you live in?  It not only causes heath probalems for you, but all of your friends and neighbors.









 

Online Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12145
  • Country: 00
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #554 on: May 09, 2018, 03:12:58 pm »
They have both. 
That would mean they would need two reservoirs.  One up stream and another down stream as a source to pump water from when they are storing energy.  Is there that many pairs of reservoirs?

Hence "They have both".

 

Offline ahbushnell

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 622
  • Country: us
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #555 on: May 09, 2018, 03:35:28 pm »
They have both. 
That would mean they would need two reservoirs.  One up stream and another down stream as a source to pump water from when they are storing energy.  Is there that many pairs of reservoirs?

Hence "They have both".
That's interesting do you know of some specific examples?
 

Offline ahbushnell

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 622
  • Country: us
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #556 on: May 09, 2018, 03:41:47 pm »
They have both. 
That would mean they would need two reservoirs.  One up stream and another down stream as a source to pump water from when they are storing energy.  Is there that many pairs of reservoirs?

Hence "They have both".
That's interesting do you know of some specific examples?
I found these plants in california
 
Lake Hodges, Castaic Lake, Helms, San Luis Reservoir, O’Neill Forebay, Big Creek, and Oroville
 

Offline Miyuki

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 490
  • Country: cz
    • Me on youtube
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #557 on: May 09, 2018, 03:58:52 pm »
And I bet that car pollutes the air like crazy.  You one car probably produces more air pollution than 200 modern cars.
So not only are you driving a car that's not safe, it also produces a lots of pollution.

Car might be fun to drive and all of that, but like using an old outdated computer/smartphone which could easily be attacked by cybercrimianls your actions affect all of society.

Why drive a car that pollutes the city you live in?  It not only causes heath probalems for you, but all of your friends and neighbors.
And that is what politicians want you to believe
But in reality gasoline cars have almost same emissions from when they first begin to use catalytic converters
Look at tables there no much change for gasoline cars
 

Online Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12145
  • Country: 00
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #558 on: May 09, 2018, 05:11:52 pm »
They have both. 
That would mean they would need two reservoirs.  One up stream and another down stream as a source to pump water from when they are storing energy.  Is there that many pairs of reservoirs?

Hence "They have both".
That's interesting do you know of some specific examples?

The search term you're looking for is "Pump-back hydroelectric dam".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity#Pump-back_hydroelectric_dams

Examples?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pumped-storage_hydroelectric_power_stations
« Last Edit: May 09, 2018, 05:14:30 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6298
  • Country: gb
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #559 on: May 09, 2018, 05:32:56 pm »
The search term you're looking for is "Pump-back hydroelectric dam".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity#Pump-back_hydroelectric_dams

Examples?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pumped-storage_hydroelectric_power_stations
Globally, hybrid hydroelectric + pumped storage systems are rare. Places where a high and a low pool can be sited are seldom places where the high pool can also intercept and store water from a major river. The list in your second reference is basically a list of pure pumped storage systems, with no rain energy capture.
 

Offline DougSpindler

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1740
  • Country: us
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #560 on: May 09, 2018, 06:18:20 pm »
They have both. 
That would mean they would need two reservoirs.  One up stream and another down stream as a source to pump water from when they are storing energy.  Is there that many pairs of reservoirs?

Hence "They have both".
That's interesting do you know of some specific examples?

Yes.  I accidentley visted one years ago while looking for a camping site.  The lake is open to the public but there was a big warning sign stating lake level can change +/- 3-4 feet in a few hours.  The name of the lake was Lake Taboe  (Not Lake Tahoe.)  I think it was by Tragedy Springs where the Native American Indians killed the Mormons.

The entire Sierra Nevada mounts are dotted with thousands of these small resivors/lakes it's hard to know which ones are naturaal or man made and used for energy storage/power production.   Web site says over 100.

I do. 

https://www.pge.com/en_US/safety/how-the-system-works/hydroelectric-system/hydroelectric-system.page
 

Online Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12145
  • Country: 00
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #561 on: May 09, 2018, 07:20:02 pm »
Globally, hybrid hydroelectric + pumped storage systems are rare. Places where a high and a low pool can be sited are seldom places where the high pool can also intercept and store water from a major river. The list in your second reference is basically a list of pure pumped storage systems, with no rain energy capture.

OK.

Is this terribly important to the "power compnaies(sic) don't have energy storage" debate? They obviously do have pumped storage, just not many where the high pools are fed by major rivers.

(and presumably there's not much demand for those even if there happens to be a suitable low pool - the high pool is being filled up anyway)


 

Offline coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6298
  • Country: gb
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #562 on: May 09, 2018, 09:21:02 pm »
Globally, hybrid hydroelectric + pumped storage systems are rare. Places where a high and a low pool can be sited are seldom places where the high pool can also intercept and store water from a major river. The list in your second reference is basically a list of pure pumped storage systems, with no rain energy capture.

OK.

Is this terribly important to the "power compnaies(sic) don't have energy storage" debate? They obviously do have pumped storage, just not many where the high pools are fed by major rivers.

(and presumably there's not much demand for those even if there happens to be a suitable low pool - the high pool is being filled up anyway)
Of course its important. Lots of people have lots of niche things. What matters for energy supply is what exists in large volume. When all the world's significant pump storage systems can be listed on one page it really niche.
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 20919
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #563 on: May 09, 2018, 09:33:14 pm »
Of course its important. Lots of people have lots of niche things. What matters for energy supply is what exists in large volume. When all the world's significant pump storage systems can be listed on one page it really niche.
What I'm wondering about is if you could make a hydro energy storage system in a large lake or sea. The surface area can be huge but the height difference will be a few meters at most. When located in a sea with some tidal level differences the inefficiency could be (partly) cancelled by using the tide (high tide: store, low tide generate).
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6298
  • Country: gb
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #564 on: May 09, 2018, 10:44:57 pm »
Of course its important. Lots of people have lots of niche things. What matters for energy supply is what exists in large volume. When all the world's significant pump storage systems can be listed on one page it really niche.
What I'm wondering about is if you could make a hydro energy storage system in a large lake or sea. The surface area can be huge but the height difference will be a few meters at most. When located in a sea with some tidal level differences the inefficiency could be (partly) cancelled by using the tide (high tide: store, low tide generate).
There is a pumped storage system in Japan where the low pool is the sea, and the high pool is a man made lake on the cliffs overlooking the sea. The lake is supposed to be pretty well sealed, to minimise the amount of salt which bleeds into the surrounding area. Salt water could be really damaging to the surrounding environment if it leaks out little by little over many years. It might be hard to use a natural lake adjacent to the sea for that reason..... assuming there are any high up natural lakes sufficiently close to the sea.
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 20919
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #565 on: May 09, 2018, 11:01:06 pm »
What I mean is: you can make an artificial lake in the sea (and put solar panels and/or wind turbines inside and around it).
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6298
  • Country: gb
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #566 on: May 09, 2018, 11:26:50 pm »
What I mean is: you can make an artificial lake in the sea (and put solar panels and/or wind turbines inside and around it).
Do you mean building walls up from the seabed until they are much higher than the surface, and using the enclosed space as a high pool? I've seen this proposed, but I don't think something like it has ever been constructed. I imagine it would need to be in a fairly sheltered spot, or tolerating the worst possible storms could greatly complicate things.
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 20919
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #567 on: May 09, 2018, 11:48:29 pm »
What I mean is: you can make an artificial lake in the sea (and put solar panels and/or wind turbines inside and around it).
Do you mean building walls up from the seabed until they are much higher than the surface, and using the enclosed space as a high pool? I've seen this proposed, but I don't think something like it has ever been constructed. I imagine it would need to be in a fairly sheltered spot, or tolerating the worst possible storms could greatly complicate things.
A big lake could be used as well but artificial islands have been built many times in seas and oceans. Not in deep parts but there are lots of shallow areas.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline ahbushnell

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 622
  • Country: us
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #568 on: May 10, 2018, 02:13:53 am »
MIT has a project to build 25 m diameter spheres 400m below off shore windturbines.  Then pump water in and out for energy storage.

http://pergatory.mit.edu/ores/


 

Offline coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6298
  • Country: gb
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #569 on: May 10, 2018, 02:53:39 am »
MIT has a project to build 25 m diameter spheres 400m below off shore windturbines.  Then pump water in and out for energy storage.

http://pergatory.mit.edu/ores/
I saw a proposal for this idea in the 80s, from people who were experimenting with ways to extract energy from waves. It seems MIT built a small model in 2011, but I can't find any references to work proceeding from there. The paper produced after that initial experiment is behind the IEEE pay wall.
 

Online Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12145
  • Country: 00
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #570 on: May 10, 2018, 05:14:15 am »
What I mean is: you can make an artificial lake in the sea (and put solar panels and/or wind turbines inside and around it).
Do you mean building walls up from the seabed until they are much higher than the surface, and using the enclosed space as a high pool?

A cofferdam:


I've seen this proposed, but I don't think something like it has ever been constructed. I imagine it would need to be in a fairly sheltered spot, or tolerating the worst possible storms could greatly complicate things.
Water getting inside isn't really a problem for a power station.

(in fact it might be better to fill it up until the storm passes).



« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 05:16:50 am by Fungus »
 

Offline coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6298
  • Country: gb
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #571 on: May 10, 2018, 12:38:16 pm »
I've seen this proposed, but I don't think something like it has ever been constructed. I imagine it would need to be in a fairly sheltered spot, or tolerating the worst possible storms could greatly complicate things.
Water getting inside isn't really a problem for a power station.

(in fact it might be better to fill it up until the storm passes).
I was thinking more of strength issues. A raging storm can smash some impressively strong looking concrete structures. Any water that gets tossed into the high pool during a storm is a bonus. There have been wave power proposed based on actually exploiting this, but they don't seem very practical.
 

Offline Marco

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5074
  • Country: nl
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #572 on: May 10, 2018, 01:31:49 pm »
http://pergatory.mit.edu/ores/

I wonder if you couldn't just put a steel pipe on it and pull it "vacuum" from the surface, or would you lose too much energy from turbulence?

PS. actual paper for their concept here. Frauenhofer is working on it as well.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 01:38:53 pm by Marco »
 

Offline DougSpindler

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1740
  • Country: us
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #573 on: May 10, 2018, 01:59:14 pm »
Globally, hybrid hydroelectric + pumped storage systems are rare. Places where a high and a low pool can be sited are seldom places where the high pool can also intercept and store water from a major river. The list in your second reference is basically a list of pure pumped storage systems, with no rain energy capture.

OK.

Is this terribly important to the "power compnaies(sic) don't have energy storage" debate? They obviously do have pumped storage, just not many where the high pools are fed by major rivers.

(and presumably there's not much demand for those even if there happens to be a suitable low pool - the high pool is being filled up anyway)

I think you are missing the point.  These energy storage reservoirs are very important and used regularly. If they wern’t just think of all of the energy and drinking water that would be lost if the water were not “recycled”/pumped back to the higher resivors at night.


 
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 02:42:59 pm by DougSpindler »
 

Offline DougSpindler

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1740
  • Country: us
Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #574 on: May 10, 2018, 02:51:19 pm »
MIT has a project to build 25 m diameter spheres 400m below off shore windturbines.  Then pump water in and out for energy storage.

http://pergatory.mit.edu/ores/
I saw a proposal for this idea in the 80s, from people who were experimenting with ways to extract energy from waves. It seems MIT built a small model in 2011, but I can't find any references to work proceeding from there. The paper produced after that initial experiment is behind the IEEE pay wall.

Harvesting wave energy is nothing new.  In Santa Cruz, California the remains of the concrete foundation which was used to harvest wave energy over 100 years ago still remains.  It was abandoned becuase of advances in technology.

Then UC Berkeley buitl somehting called a Damital 30-40 years ago to harvest energy from ocean waves/current.  Just wasn't const effective.

A few places around the world do haverest energy from ocean waves.  But like solar and wind it's unperdicatble and the ocean water is highly corrisove.
 
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf