Author Topic: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?  (Read 259491 times)

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Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #375 on: April 16, 2018, 02:02:17 am »
And yet there is no difference between using the toilet without buying anything and charging an EV without buying anything. Both cost money to the owner so why should they (toilet or EV charger) be treated differently? IMHO it is just a matter of what you are used to to get for free.

Really?  You don’t see the difference between a homeless person taking two hours in a business’s restroom vs. a customer who needs to use the restroom for a few minutes but can’t because the homeless guy is taking a bath in it.

You need to come to California.  Many businesses and customers of those business do not like it a freeloader is taking hogging the restroom for two hours so paying customers can’t use it.  Businesses here in California had signs saying restrooms are for customers only.   Just like the supermarket that had a sign saying EV charging is for customers only.

Non-customers abused the privilege so now many places which once had restrooms customers could use have closed them.  So now freeloaders and customers have no place to go.

Think about it for a moment if you had a shop with a restroom which was for customers only.  Would you like it if every time you or a paying customer needed to go there was a homeless person in it?

This is happening in California.  Cities are responding by installing port-a-potties for people for people to use.  And test the homeless who don’t pay any taxes either spend hours in them or in some cases have moved in and use it as their home.

Don’t you think business that get taken advantages of by EV drivers who just rip them off wlll like they did for restrooms just not offer them anymore?  With less EV charging stations there will be less places for EV driver to get a charge. 

You never answered my question.  Can I come over to your house an charge my car?  And at night don’t you leave some lights on?  Would you mind if some homeless people can and sat on your front poach to read the newspaper at night from your “free” light?






Well






 

Offline paulca

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #376 on: April 16, 2018, 06:37:00 am »
If it's not so they can look "Green" why don't they offer free petrol/diesel for customers?
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Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #377 on: April 16, 2018, 09:16:05 am »
And yet there is no difference between using the toilet without buying anything and charging an EV without buying anything. Both cost money to the owner so why should they (toilet or EV charger) be treated differently? IMHO it is just a matter of what you are used to to get for free.
Really?  You don’t see the difference between a homeless person taking two hours in a business’s restroom vs. a customer who needs to use the restroom for a few minutes but can’t because the homeless guy is taking a bath in it.
From your previous post I got the impression that it is OK for you to use restroom without buying something but it is not OK to charge an EV without buying something. Perhaps that impression is wrong.

Sure the homeless guy taking a bath is similar to someone leaving the EV there to charge all day and are obviously freeloading (and shops should take action). But if you look at using the restroom for a couple of minutes and parking for (say) an hour then these situations are quite normal behaviour.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #378 on: April 16, 2018, 11:11:32 am »
And yet there is no difference between using the toilet without buying anything and charging an EV without buying anything. Both cost money to the owner so why should they (toilet or EV charger) be treated differently? IMHO it is just a matter of what you are used to to get for free.
Really?  You don’t see the difference between a homeless person taking two hours in a business’s restroom vs. a customer who needs to use the restroom for a few minutes but can’t because the homeless guy is taking a bath in it.
From your previous post I got the impression that it is OK for you to use restroom without buying something but it is not OK to charge an EV without buying something. Perhaps that impression is wrong.

There's a tiny difference: People don't lock the toilet door from the outside then go off to the gym for a couple of hours.

(although there are other ways to leave a restroom unusable)

Solution: Smarter chargers.

Make all cars have an ID which they need to transmit to the charger (they probably already do) and make it easy for stores to ban certain cars from chargers (eg. if you don't scan a QR code from the store before unplugging your car or if you leave it there for much longer than the time it takes to go to the store and back).
 

Offline paulca

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #379 on: April 16, 2018, 11:59:23 am »
A local Asda had to start charging for parking because the store is close to the train station, so commuters filled it at 8am and kept it full till 6pm.

So they charge for parking, however on checking out at the till they ask you for the parking ticket which they refund.

if they put a QR code on the parking ticket it might discourage people from charging without using the shop.

Of course over here (Northern Ireland) their penalty charges for parking on their land cannot be up held.  As opposed to the rest of the UK the implied contract entered into by parking on private land has to be with an named individual, not an entity like "Registered Keeper", the later is all they can get from the number plate, so courts do not accept disputes over failure to pay them unless they have evidence as to who was driving the car at the time the contract was entered into.
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Online phil from seattle

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #380 on: April 16, 2018, 07:29:49 pm »
<snipped out ICEing description>
What’s the etiquette here?
In a number of states (WA and CA, maybe others), you will get a fine for parking in EV charging slots. $124 in WA. Enforcement requires reporting them which I do though it seems like it's about 50/50 that a cop will show up. If it's not a public lot, a lot of us complain to the management. In a number of places that has resulted in traffic cones being put in the charging spaces while not in use.  Works surprisingly well.  A number of EV owners carry pre-printed notes to put on ICEers' cars. We also have several Facebook groups where pictures of the ICEer cars with license plate showing get posted. Doubt it does much other than keep us EVers agitated and vigilant! :-)
 

Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #381 on: April 16, 2018, 08:18:40 pm »
Quote
Electricity distribution networks in Europe run at well below their full potential [...]. The findings show that the unused network capacity could be utilised for charging electric vehicles with little or no need for additional capacity. [...] All consumers, not just those with EVs, would benefit from spreading the costs of existing infrastructure over more load and minimising risky new investment. [...] The results suggest that these systems are operating at 50-70% of their potential. To place this in perspective, all current light-duty vehicles could be electrified with little or no need for additional network capacity.

http://energypost.eu/new-research-europes-electricity-networks-are-underused-and-have-ample-capacity-to-cope-with-electrification-of-cars/
If you have actually read the article it says that for this to work the EV's charging times would need to be regulated from a central point. Actually the article supports the point made earlier (complete with numbers so no guessing)  that electrical distribution grids are not up to the task of charging large amounts of EVs in their current state:


Shifting EV charging to periods when existing resources are readily available would keep incremental investment in infrastructure to a minimum

An article in the Dutch news said that the grid needs to be expanded to deal with the electricity from solar panels. That sounds way more like real news to me.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 08:21:55 pm by nctnico »
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Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #382 on: April 16, 2018, 08:27:33 pm »
<snipped out ICEing description>
What’s the etiquette here?
In a number of states (WA and CA, maybe others), you will get a fine for parking in EV charging slots. $124 in WA. Enforcement requires reporting them which I do though it seems like it's about 50/50 that a cop will show up. If it's not a public lot, a lot of us complain to the management. In a number of places that has resulted in traffic cones being put in the charging spaces while not in use.  Works surprisingly well.  A number of EV owners carry pre-printed notes to put on ICEers' cars. We also have several Facebook groups where pictures of the ICEer cars with license plate showing get posted. Doubt it does much other than keep us EVers agitated and vigilant! :-)

Funny you mention Wa.  I was just there last month for 5 days.  There was construction on the street and it was lined with no parking/stopping any time  / tow away signs.  Traffic was a mess and the police were called every day.  And every day they refused to cite or tow the cars which were illegally parked.

EV car owners get picked on by ICE drivers.  I’ve heard cases of charger plugs getting cut off.  And now we have EV car owners who are taking advantage and running charging for other EV car owners.

When will EV cars become main stream?  When EV car owners stop taking advantage of the business who are trying to help them.

 

Online phil from seattle

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #383 on: April 16, 2018, 09:14:23 pm »
On the subject of charging standards. There are effectively 4 "standards": Tesla, ChaDeMo, CCS and J1772 (Level 2). There are others but not a lot of backing. There is a Chinese standard as well though I don't know what's going on with it. And of course, most EVs have adapters that allow use of standard electrical outlets.

Telsa, being very early had no agreed upon standard for DC charging so they created their own.  The manufacturer standards bodies deliberately ignored Tesla and created two competing ones - CCS and ChaDeMo.  Tesla has an adaptor for chademo and J1772. I believe one for CCS is on the way.  The problem with CCS in the US is a large percentage are at auto-dealers which is about the last place anyone would want to go to charge their car.  This is to a lesser extent also true of chademo.  There does seem to be a trend towards dual CCS/chademo chargers, so the issue of finding a compatible charger may go away. What I find hilarious is that chademo and ccs are big clunky industrial looking connectors while tesla is small and sleek clearly designed for the consumer. It kind of looks like a gas/petrol nozzle. I have no idea who or what was the target user of chademo or ccs.

What I also find striking is that only Tesla has a planned out charging network.  I believe this is one of the reasons Tesla still outsells other battery only EVs.

Also, you should use the PlugShare ap on your smart phone to find a compatible charger.
 

Offline paulca

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #384 on: April 16, 2018, 09:23:11 pm »
If BetaMax/VHS is anything to go by, they will pick the cheapest, most profitably to manufacture, but worst functional version and stick with it.  So put your bets on the worst one.
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Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #385 on: April 16, 2018, 09:41:15 pm »
On the subject of charging standards. There are effectively 4 "standards": Tesla, ChaDeMo, CCS and J1772 (Level 2). There are others but not a lot of backing. There is a Chinese standard as well though I don't know what's going on with it. And of course, most EVs have adapters that allow use of standard electrical outlets.

Telsa, being very early had no agreed upon standard for DC charging so they created their own.  The manufacturer standards bodies deliberately ignored Tesla and created two competing ones - CCS and ChaDeMo.  Tesla has an adaptor for chademo and J1772. I believe one for CCS is on the way.  The problem with CCS in the US is a large percentage are at auto-dealers which is about the last place anyone would want to go to charge their car.  This is to a lesser extent also true of chademo.  There does seem to be a trend towards dual CCS/chademo chargers, so the issue of finding a compatible charger may go away. What I find hilarious is that chademo and ccs are big clunky industrial looking connectors while tesla is small and sleek clearly designed for the consumer. It kind of looks like a gas/petrol nozzle. I have no idea who or what was the target user of chademo or ccs.

What I also find striking is that only Tesla has a planned out charging network.  I believe this is one of the reasons Tesla still outsells other battery only EVs.

Also, you should use the PlugShare ap on your smart phone to find a compatible charger.

Thanks, this is very helpful. 

I have and use PlugShare.  I'd give it 2.5 stars.  The informaiton is not always correct and lots of key information is missing.  And I don't think PugShare has all charging stations so that mean one has to use multiple apps.....  Oh and that's another reason EV cars won't be mainstream, you have to have a smartphone.  And it can't be just any smartphone either.  The smartphone has to be running the OS the app was writen for.

One would think this would be a perfect add on for Google Maps.


If I have a Volt, can I get one of those adapters which would allow me to use a Tesla carging station?









 

Online phil from seattle

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #386 on: April 16, 2018, 10:09:08 pm »
Wow, reading this thread you would think there is a war going out there. People stealing electricity, anti EVers vandalizing infrastructure,...

That is not even close to what I see. Both my wife and I drive EVs - I've had mine since 2013 and She got hers late 2016.  Between the two of us, we've had maybe 3 incidents and they were minor comments. Contrast that with a huge number of very positive comments and lots of questions. I've never seen or heard of a charger that was vandalized, never had violence threatened. The only issue is ICEing chargers that I pointed out earlier and it's not a huge issue in general.  Only at poorly sited chargers.

As to stealing electricity, most, if not all, of the "customer use only" chargers for specific businesses I'm familiar with would be very hard to freeload on. They are usually at hotels or restaurants in a location such that it would be pretty obvious.  Plus most lots have signs that say "customer use only, all others towed" or similar. Those businesses see EVers as a very desirable demographic.  It's definitely not greenwashing because for the most part they don't advertise it. There are lots of shopping centers in the US that have chargers. Someone could freeload on those but we aren't talking about a lot of money here.  My Tesla max charge is 85 KWh.  At the average national rate, that's a bit over $9 and 4 hrs to fully charge on the typical free charger. Explain to me why there would be hordes of freeloaders? It would be incredibly inconvenient to drive to the mall, plug in and wait around for hours (not purchasing any goods or services) just to get a couple of dollars worth of free power. That dog don't hunt.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #387 on: April 16, 2018, 10:10:37 pm »
What I also find striking is that only Tesla has a planned out charging network.  I believe this is one of the reasons Tesla still outsells other battery only EVs.
Compared to other manufacturers individually yes but their total market share is not so big and the competition is not far behind:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/666130/global-sales-of-electric-vehicles-ytd-by-brand/

http://www.ev-volumes.com/country/total-world-plug-in-vehicle-volumes/
What is interesting about the numbers from these websites is that EVs are booming in China.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline paulca

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #388 on: April 16, 2018, 10:12:54 pm »
Question to EV users.  What is stopping me from unplugging your charging cord if you leave it unattended?  Do they lock?
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Online phil from seattle

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #389 on: April 16, 2018, 10:17:25 pm »
I have and use PlugShare.  I'd give it 2.5 stars.  The informaiton is not always correct and lots of key information is missing.  And I don't think PugShare has all charging stations so that mean one has to use multiple apps.....  Oh and that's another reason EV cars won't be mainstream, you have to have a smartphone.  And it can't be just any smartphone either.  The smartphone has to be running the OS the app was writen for.

One would think this would be a perfect add on for Google Maps.


If I have a Volt, can I get one of those adapters which would allow me to use a Tesla carging station?

Yeah, having charger locations on google maps would be great.  I've not had any problems with plugshare and use it fairly regularly. The app has one annoying flaw in that it's really hard to get to the charging reports. Once you find it, there is a lot of good info from other users. In particular, you can see how many charging failures there were.

You never know about an adapter for the tesla plug. Doubt it's a high priority for Elon.
 

Online phil from seattle

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #390 on: April 16, 2018, 10:17:56 pm »
Question to EV users.  What is stopping me from unplugging your charging cord if you leave it unattended?  Do they lock?
Some do. Some don't.  Typically you can unplug intermediate adapters. Chademos you can stop.  But it's not a problem. You should get notification that your charge stopped on the app.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 10:19:35 pm by phil from seattle »
 

Online phil from seattle

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #391 on: April 16, 2018, 10:30:35 pm »
What I also find striking is that only Tesla has a planned out charging network.  I believe this is one of the reasons Tesla still outsells other battery only EVs.
Compared to other manufacturers individually yes but their total market share is not so big and the competition is not far behind:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/666130/global-sales-of-electric-vehicles-ytd-by-brand/

http://www.ev-volumes.com/country/total-world-plug-in-vehicle-volumes/
What is interesting about the numbers from these websites is that EVs are booming in China.

Yes, china is booming.

As to network competition - lots of talk but not one competitor has done anything. Frankly, I expected at least one manufacturer to be starting to roll something out in 2018 but looks like they just don't understand the network effect.

As to competitive cars. Again, lots of talk but only feeble responses. I have yet to see a car close to entering manufacturing that looks like a real threat to Tesla. I thought the Bolt had potential but it just hasn't caught on for what ever reason. Right now, Tesla's biggest threat is themselves. They have a huge order list and are struggling to ramp production. If a sexy competitive car got released, they would be in real trouble. Maybe a "Bolt GT" or some such. Still, they are way ahead of everyone else.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 10:49:11 pm by phil from seattle »
 

Offline radar_macgyver

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #392 on: April 17, 2018, 05:09:10 am »
As to competitive cars. Again, lots of talk but only feeble responses. I have yet to see a car close to entering manufacturing that looks like a real threat to Tesla. I thought the Bolt had potential but it just hasn't caught on for what ever reason. Right now, Tesla's biggest threat is themselves. They have a huge order list and are struggling to ramp production. If a sexy competitive car got released, they would be in real trouble. Maybe a "Bolt GT" or some such. Still, they are way ahead of everyone else.
The Bolt and Nissan Leaf both have looks only their mothers would love (though the 2018 Leaf is kinda nice). GM seems to do very little to actually market the Bolt. Dealerships often have exactly one salesperson who knows anything about them, and even they end up doing things like offering free oil changes. ::) There are rumors that GM is planning a dual motor version with a bigger battery, but no official word.
 

Offline poorchava

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #393 on: April 17, 2018, 05:35:01 am »
Unless they come up with a way to charge up the battery in 5 minutes - it's not gonna fly. In many countries the predominant form of housing are all sorts of apartament buildings, often without any form of garage (people just keep their cars parked on the street). So no charging overnight. Many companies do not have big parking lots, so people park on the streets too. No charging either. So they'd have to spend some hours every other day (depending on the commute distance) to wait for their car to charge up. No thanks. With battery powered tools, there are rechangeable batteries for that exact reason. To not put you in a position where u need to do something, but you have to wait for the damn thing to charge. Wealthy people will often live in a house or an apartement building with a parking spot, where they can charge their cars - that's true, but if it's supposed to be something that masses can use - no go.

Car's a tool. It's supposed to work.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 05:46:24 am by poorchava »
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Offline coppice

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #394 on: April 17, 2018, 02:24:33 pm »
What I also find striking is that only Tesla has a planned out charging network.  I believe this is one of the reasons Tesla still outsells other battery only EVs.
Compared to other manufacturers individually yes but their total market share is not so big and the competition is not far behind:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/666130/global-sales-of-electric-vehicles-ytd-by-brand/

http://www.ev-volumes.com/country/total-world-plug-in-vehicle-volumes/
What is interesting about the numbers from these websites is that EVs are booming in China.

Yes, china is booming.

As to network competition - lots of talk but not one competitor has done anything. Frankly, I expected at least one manufacturer to be starting to roll something out in 2018 but looks like they just don't understand the network effect.

As to competitive cars. Again, lots of talk but only feeble responses. I have yet to see a car close to entering manufacturing that looks like a real threat to Tesla. I thought the Bolt had potential but it just hasn't caught on for what ever reason. Right now, Tesla's biggest threat is themselves. They have a huge order list and are struggling to ramp production. If a sexy competitive car got released, they would be in real trouble. Maybe a "Bolt GT" or some such. Still, they are way ahead of everyone else.
Only Tesla seems to think a vendor run charging network makes sense. Everyone else realises that charging has to come down to a common infrastructure, like every gas station being compatible with the tank filling port on every make of car. Where I live there are lots of places around the town to charge a car. For example, supermarket and retail park car parks mostly have a few charging points. I can't remember seeing a Tesla charger, though.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #395 on: April 17, 2018, 04:45:51 pm »
Wow, reading this thread you would think there is a war going out there. People stealing electricity, anti EVers vandalizing infrastructure,...

That is not even close to what I see. Both my wife and I drive EVs - I've had mine since 2013 and She got hers late 2016.  Between the two of us, we've had maybe 3 incidents and they were minor comments. Contrast that with a huge number of very positive comments and lots of questions. I've never seen or heard of a charger that was vandalized, never had violence threatened. The only issue is ICEing chargers that I pointed out earlier and it's not a huge issue in general.  Only at poorly sited chargers.

As to stealing electricity, most, if not all, of the "customer use only" chargers for specific businesses I'm familiar with would be very hard to freeload on. They are usually at hotels or restaurants in a location such that it would be pretty obvious.  Plus most lots have signs that say "customer use only, all others towed" or similar. Those businesses see EVers as a very desirable demographic.  It's definitely not greenwashing because for the most part they don't advertise it. There are lots of shopping centers in the US that have chargers. Someone could freeload on those but we aren't talking about a lot of money here.  My Tesla max charge is 85 KWh.  At the average national rate, that's a bit over $9 and 4 hrs to fully charge on the typical free charger. Explain to me why there would be hordes of freeloaders? It would be incredibly inconvenient to drive to the mall, plug in and wait around for hours (not purchasing any goods or services) just to get a couple of dollars worth of free power. That dog don't hunt.

Interesting you have had three incidents. 
Charging cords have been cut in Florida and California by neighbors in housing complexes who think EV drivers are getting free electricty.  They aren’t as they are paying there portion of the electric bill.

In California EV drivers are ripping off business, specifically super markets and hotels which offer free charging while shopping or staying in the hotel.  What freeloading EV drivers are doing is using the store or hotel’s EV charger while they are at the gym across the street, at the movie theater down the street or at work.  They don’t shop in the store or stay at the hotel.  They see free charging but disregard the sign that says only while shopping at our store or staying in our hotel.

After this happened to me twice in one month I’m starting to watch for it.  I’ve had my EV car for over a year and never noticed this before.  I think this is becoming more prevelinet as more people in California purchase EVs.  And then ICE drivers I guess are parking in EV spaces to prevent charging as a way of saying screw you for having an electric car.  I’ve not been able to charge because of this once in the past year.

EV cars and EV charging is tuning into an interesting social experiment.  It’s going to be interesting how it plays out.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #396 on: April 17, 2018, 05:05:44 pm »
I think the solution for powering EV cars will be what Ford came up with the Nucleon.  Car gets 5,000 miles before it needs to be recharged and emits no greenhouse gasses or any other pollutants while being driven. 
 

Online phil from seattle

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #397 on: April 17, 2018, 06:51:47 pm »
Only Tesla seems to think a vendor run charging network makes sense. Everyone else realises that charging has to come down to a common infrastructure, like every gas station being compatible with the tank filling port on every make of car. Where I live there are lots of places around the town to charge a car. For example, supermarket and retail park car parks mostly have a few charging points. I can't remember seeing a Tesla charger, though.
Hmmm, and you discount the possibility of the network being a factor in Tesla outselling other BEVs?

You don't see the chargers because they aren't terribly obvious. The brown markers are superchargers, the green are Tesla outlets at destinations.

« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 06:55:12 pm by phil from seattle »
 

Online phil from seattle

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #398 on: April 17, 2018, 06:58:09 pm »
Unless they come up with a way to charge up the battery in 5 minutes - it's not gonna fly. In many countries the predominant form of housing are all sorts of apartament buildings, often without any form of garage (people just keep their cars parked on the street). So no charging overnight. Many companies do not have big parking lots, so people park on the streets too. No charging either. So they'd have to spend some hours every other day (depending on the commute distance) to wait for their car to charge up. No thanks. With battery powered tools, there are rechangeable batteries for that exact reason. To not put you in a position where u need to do something, but you have to wait for the damn thing to charge. Wealthy people will often live in a house or an apartement building with a parking spot, where they can charge their cars - that's true, but if it's supposed to be something that masses can use - no go.

Car's a tool. It's supposed to work.

meh. heard this before. Filling Station mentality. I won't make a change if I have to ANYTHING differently. The world is changing, get used to it.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #399 on: April 17, 2018, 07:09:03 pm »
The world is changing, get used to it.

Progress is not assured, you have to make realistic plans and carry them forward without hopeful thinking.

If you try to use the state to force the poor into electric cars while the rich just use it as a second car and use fossil when convenient (very often once the novelty of value signalling is gone, plus the many rich who get a kick from signalling opulence). You're going to see a change you will not like.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 08:31:45 pm by Marco »
 


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