Author Topic: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?  (Read 259858 times)

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Offline james_s

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #500 on: May 06, 2018, 01:08:21 am »
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As has been stated several times EVs or at least the Volt has 2 banks of batteries.  One for the power train and another for the creature comforts.  In a Volt one can have a fully charged power train battery bank and not be able to power-on the car if the other battery bank is dead.  They are completely independent of each other. 

Just how much energy do you think it takes to pwoer an EV when stopped in traffic?  All that's being powered during daylight hours are the computers, one display and in my case the sound system.  Is that even 100 watts?  (I don't know, but it's not a lot.)  Now compare that to an ICE.  How much heat is being generated by the running enging sitting in traffic?  Again IDK for sure, but I'm guessing 2,000 - 5,000 watts?  I'm thinking probably more.

I know when I park my ICE car in the garage the entire garage heats up.  WHen I park my EV there's no increase in temperature.

Use some critical thinking skills.  ICE cars when running generate a tremedous amout of heat.  Aren't ICE only 20% or less efficient? 
How efficient is an electric motor?  Not eactly sure but aren't they 75% or more efficent?  And then EVs have regenitive breaking, so KE gets coverneted back to PE when slowing down.  To slow an ICE down only way to do it is to generate more heat with the breaking system which decreased range.

Does that pass your BS test?

I don't know what's being argued here, I'm one of the pro-EV guys, my only point was that running accessories while sitting stationary will absolutely effect the range of the car. Any car carries with it a finite amount of stored energy, whether that is stored in gasoline/diesel or batteries doesn't matter, running any sort of accessories is going to consume some of this energy. Is it enough to matter? I'd say that depends. Does electric or ICE have the advantage here? Frankly I don't know, but I would bet that in warm weather electric comes out on top but in cold weather ICE may have an advantage since you've got all that waste heat anyway you can have all the cabin heat you want for "free" rather than consuming a considerable amount of battery power operating a heater or heat pump. How much energy is burned up idling an ICE is easy enough to calculate if anyone here has a car that shows real time fuel consumption, we know how many kWh is in a gallon of fuel, although while that would be interesting to know, even if it is (as I suspect) vastly higher than the same situation in an EV, that doesn't change the fact that even with the EV the value is non-zero.

I'm a fan of EV's, that isn't the point. My only argument is you can't have something for nothing, you can't sit there consuming energy without getting that energy from somewhere and whether ICE or electric it's eventually going to come from a common pool that could go toward propulsion instead. Fortunately sitting stationary powering accessories is not a particularly desirable use case.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #501 on: May 06, 2018, 02:45:06 am »
As has been stated several times EVs or at least the Volt has 2 banks of batteries.  One for the power train and another for the creature comforts.  In a Volt one can have a fully charged power train battery bank and not be able to power-on the car if the other battery bank is dead.  They are completely independent of each other. 

Does that pass your BS test?
I think you really need to read about how cars actually work. What you wrote doesn't make any sense and it is also wrong. The Volt can still drive if the secondary (12V) battery is dead which means that the primary electronics and mandatory stuff like lights are powered from the drive train battery. Ergo it will use power when it is sitting idle while being switched on. There is no way around that. Besides that the battery management electronics will slowly but steadily drain the battery as well. It will take long but it will happen.

I have a Volt and I did have a dead  secondary (12V) battery when the drive train batteries were at 85% charge.  The car would not power up and the drive train batteries did not charge the 12v secondary. Only way to get the car moving was to recharge the 12 secondary battery.

 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #502 on: May 06, 2018, 02:48:47 am »
Dude did you not read the two other posts?  NO!  You are wrong.   

Lights, computers, navigation system, entertainment system, seat heating, phone charging are NOT Let me say that again, NOT powered by the drive train batteries.
So we have two options.
1) The "creature comfort battery" has a very large capacity and can power AC, heating, vehicle electronics (a couple of hundred watts in modern vehicles) while standing still in a traffic jam for weeks.
2) The "creature comfort battery" is charged from the "drive train battery" and the range is reduced even if standing still in a traffic jam.

http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?5409-Auxillary-Battery
Quote
During operation, the 12 Volt battery's voltage is maintained by the "accessory power module" (APM) whenever the Volt is "ON", and maintained by the main battery charger assembly (On-Board Charging Module) when the Volt is plugged in and charging is ACTIVE (steady green LED). The APM is a DC to DC converter that takes high voltage (380V?) from the Volt's traction battery and converts it to ~13.0-15.5 Volts in order to maintain the low voltage accessory loads (including the Volt's computers and modules). It also charges the 12V system's battery, also know as an "absorbant glass mat" (AGM) battery. The 12V battery's voltage is maintained when the car is running or charging (by the APM or charger, respectively), but not when parked and unplugged.

Am I still wrong?

Looks like it.  That post was from eight years ago.  Car has been redesigned. 

Why not buy one so you can see for yourself what you are getting all wrong.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #503 on: May 06, 2018, 03:02:46 am »
\
As has been stated several times EVs or at least the Volt has 2 banks of batteries.  One for the power train and another for the creature comforts.  In a Volt one can have a fully charged power train battery bank and not be able to power-on the car if the other battery bank is dead.  They are completely independent of each other. 

Just how much energy do you think it takes to pwoer an EV when stopped in traffic?  All that's being powered during daylight hours are the computers, one display and in my case the sound system.  Is that even 100 watts?  (I don't know, but it's not a lot.)  Now compare that to an ICE.  How much heat is being generated by the running enging sitting in traffic?  Again IDK for sure, but I'm guessing 2,000 - 5,000 watts?  I'm thinking probably more.

I know when I park my ICE car in the garage the entire garage heats up.  WHen I park my EV there's no increase in temperature.

Use some critical thinking skills.  ICE cars when running generate a tremedous amout of heat.  Aren't ICE only 20% or less efficient? 
How efficient is an electric motor?  Not eactly sure but aren't they 75% or more efficent?  And then EVs have regenitive breaking, so KE gets coverneted back to PE when slowing down.  To slow an ICE down only way to do it is to generate more heat with the breaking system which decreased range.

Does that pass your BS test?

I don't know what's being argued here, I'm one of the pro-EV guys, my only point was that running accessories while sitting stationary will absolutely effect the range of the car. Any car carries with it a finite amount of stored energy, whether that is stored in gasoline/diesel or batteries doesn't matter, running any sort of accessories is going to consume some of this energy. Is it enough to matter? I'd say that depends. Does electric or ICE have the advantage here? Frankly I don't know, but I would bet that in warm weather electric comes out on top but in cold weather ICE may have an advantage since you've got all that waste heat anyway you can have all the cabin heat you want for "free" rather than consuming a considerable amount of battery power operating a heater or heat pump. How much energy is burned up idling an ICE is easy enough to calculate if anyone here has a car that shows real time fuel consumption, we know how many kWh is in a gallon of fuel, although while that would be interesting to know, even if it is (as I suspect) vastly higher than the same situation in an EV, that doesn't change the fact that even with the EV the value is non-zero.

I'm a fan of EV's, that isn't the point. My only argument is you can't have something for nothing, you can't sit there consuming energy without getting that energy from somewhere and whether ICE or electric it's eventually going to come from a common pool that could go toward propulsion instead. Fortunately sitting stationary powering accessories is not a particularly desirable use case.


James_s  Someone is saying if an ICE and a EV are stuck in traffic the range each would be able to travel before refueling would decrease.  I have an EV and if I'm sitting in traffic the only energy I'm consuming is to power the computers and sound system.  Yes it takes energy to power those devices but how much?  100 or 200 watts?  If the car's not moving the drive train batteries are not being discharged. 

Now compare that to an ICE sitting in traffic.  How much energy/watts are being consumed to power the engine?  2,000?  5,000 watts? 

If I recall correctly an ICE car with a full tank of gas just left ideling will run out of fuel in about 12 hours.  An EV could sit in traffic for a month or more and still have the amout of range.  The energy in the drive train batteries isn't being consumed so one has full range.  Yes if one is listening to the sound system and the on board computers have to get power from somewhere....  But just how much or shoudl I say how little energy is that if compared to the energy to move the car.


 

Offline jonovid

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #504 on: May 06, 2018, 03:07:17 am »
at the end of the day its batteries that limit electric vehicles.   :horse:   cold fusion is yet to save the day.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2018, 03:09:25 am by jonovid »
Hobbyist with a basic knowledge of electronics
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #505 on: May 06, 2018, 03:13:25 am »
at the end of the day its batteries that limit electric vehicles.   :horse:   cold fusion is yet to save the day.

No disagreement, but there is one exception.  If people who have EV only drive downhill they won't use any power from the batteries.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #506 on: May 06, 2018, 05:12:52 am »
James_s  Someone is saying if an ICE and a EV are stuck in traffic the range each would be able to travel before refueling would decrease.  I have an EV and if I'm sitting in traffic the only energy I'm consuming is to power the computers and sound system.  Yes it takes energy to power those devices but how much?  100 or 200 watts?  If the car's not moving the drive train batteries are not being discharged. 

Now compare that to an ICE sitting in traffic.  How much energy/watts are being consumed to power the engine?  2,000?  5,000 watts? 

If I recall correctly an ICE car with a full tank of gas just left ideling will run out of fuel in about 12 hours.  An EV could sit in traffic for a month or more and still have the amout of range.  The energy in the drive train batteries isn't being consumed so one has full range.  Yes if one is listening to the sound system and the on board computers have to get power from somewhere....  But just how much or shoudl I say how little energy is that if compared to the energy to move the car.

This is getting pedantic but the energy has to ultimately come from the traction batteries, otherwise what is there? A separate battery pack with enough capacity to run all the lighting, electronics, heating/AC, navigation, computers, etc that is only charged independently by the charger when you plug in the car? That doesn't make any sense, if there is a separate battery there has got to be a DC-DC converter fed off the traction battery to charge it, otherwise I'd have to say it's a very strange design decision. Would it really be logical for it to be possible to completely deplete the battery powering all your accessories, computers and lighting while you've still got a giant traction battery with plenty of charge sitting there uselessly unable to power up the car's electronics?

Regarding how much energy is used, I suspect this is going to depend heavily on whether the HVAC system is used. Whether heating or cooling that's going to use a lot of energy. I've heard figures in the range of 2 tons for the refrigeration capacity of a typical car AC system which means something around 2HP, roughly 2kW and I'm betting all currently sold EVs use the AC as a heat pump to provide heat too. I expect most EVs now have LED headlamps so that's what, 30-50W for the pair? All the other electronics maybe a few hundred Watts, seat heater 100-200W, it could easily be 2-3kW worth of load. Tiny compared to the energy required to move the car, but not zero.

It's probably not very significant in real world situations, but I doubt you could sit in traffic for months either, likely closer to a few days. Still likely to come out ahead compared to ICE but you can't say something doesn't consume any energy in a forum full of engineers and not expect someone to nitpick.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #507 on: May 06, 2018, 05:28:53 am »
James_s  Someone is saying if an ICE and a EV are stuck in traffic the range each would be able to travel before refueling would decrease.  I have an EV and if I'm sitting in traffic the only energy I'm consuming is to power the computers and sound system.  Yes it takes energy to power those devices but how much?  100 or 200 watts?  If the car's not moving the drive train batteries are not being discharged. 

Now compare that to an ICE sitting in traffic.  How much energy/watts are being consumed to power the engine?  2,000?  5,000 watts? 

If I recall correctly an ICE car with a full tank of gas just left ideling will run out of fuel in about 12 hours.  An EV could sit in traffic for a month or more and still have the amout of range.  The energy in the drive train batteries isn't being consumed so one has full range.  Yes if one is listening to the sound system and the on board computers have to get power from somewhere....  But just how much or shoudl I say how little energy is that if compared to the energy to move the car.

This is getting pedantic but the energy has to ultimately come from the traction batteries, otherwise what is there? A separate battery pack with enough capacity to run all the lighting, electronics, heating/AC, navigation, computers, etc that is only charged independently by the charger when you plug in the car? That doesn't make any sense, if there is a separate battery there has got to be a DC-DC converter fed off the traction battery to charge it, otherwise I'd have to say it's a very strange design decision. Would it really be logical for it to be possible to completely deplete the battery powering all your accessories, computers and lighting while you've still got a giant traction battery with plenty of charge sitting there uselessly unable to power up the car's electronics?

Regarding how much energy is used, I suspect this is going to depend heavily on whether the HVAC system is used. Whether heating or cooling that's going to use a lot of energy. I've heard figures in the range of 2 tons for the refrigeration capacity of a typical car AC system which means something around 2HP, roughly 2kW and I'm betting all currently sold EVs use the AC as a heat pump to provide heat too. I expect most EVs now have LED headlamps so that's what, 30-50W for the pair? All the other electronics maybe a few hundred Watts, seat heater 100-200W, it could easily be 2-3kW worth of load. Tiny compared to the energy required to move the car, but not zero.

It's probably not very significant in real world situations, but I doubt you could sit in traffic for months either, likely closer to a few days. Still likely to come out ahead compared to ICE but you can't say something doesn't consume any energy in a forum full of engineers and not expect someone to nitpick.

The Volt also has a gas engine.  I'm not sure, but I think the engine recharges the secondary battery.  I know the power train battery does not power the computer or lights.  We left the car with the flashers on when the power train battery was at 85%.  After about an hour the flasher lights had drained the secondary battery eventhoug the powertrain battery was almost at full chaarge.  To get the car going again the secondary battery had to be charged.

Where I have it's rare to use AC or a heater.  So with no heather of AC use how many watts do you think the car's computers and sound sytem would draw during the day?  Woudl it even be 500 watts?

 




 

Offline glarsson

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #508 on: May 06, 2018, 07:40:01 am »
If I recall correctly an ICE car with a full tank of gas just left ideling will run out of fuel in about 12 hours.
The engine in my car is rather big but it only takes 1.4 liters per hour idling. However, the fuel tank is not that large, so it seems max idle time without refueling is about 40 hours. 40 hours with free heat in the winter.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #509 on: May 06, 2018, 08:18:12 am »
Now compare that to an ICE sitting in traffic.  How much energy/watts are being consumed to power the engine?  2,000?  5,000 watts? 
ICE cars have start/stop systems which shut down the engine when the car isn't moving nowadays so your point is not valid.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online coppice

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #510 on: May 06, 2018, 09:01:42 am »
Now compare that to an ICE sitting in traffic.  How much energy/watts are being consumed to power the engine?  2,000?  5,000 watts? 
ICE cars have start/stop systems which shut down the engine when the car isn't moving nowadays so your point is not valid.
Some cars have that feature. Most don't. In cars which do have it, many people find the need to disable it as the engine ages, as its gets quirky.
 

Offline woodchips

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #511 on: May 06, 2018, 10:20:54 am »
Wow, what an extended discussion!

I think electric cars are it, but, I have never bought a new car and paying more than £25k for an electric car is simply impossible. So it is secondhand ones for me. Has anyone bought a secondhand EV? Other than from a main dealer, what was the experience like? What do you get for £3k, about what I can afford. For that in the UK you can buy a 10 year old car, possibly 70k miles, and if looked after will do another 10-15 years.

Other thoughts on EV.

On a hybrid, does anyone get problems with the unleaded fuel turning to glue after a time? It is said to be a problem but I haven't really faced it even with petrol generators not being used for months.

If you leave an EV for extended periods of time, does the battery discharge? Like your mobile phone, even with it off it needs charging every few days, not like my lamented Nokia 3310.

We have recently had a spate of bitterly cold, for the UK, weather. How much has the range dropped simply to run the 4-5kW of heating needed?

I am surprised that no one seems to have had problems with 10kg of copper charge cables disappearing over night. That is £40 of any ones money, and a whizz around the housing estate should turn up several cables. Good little earner.

What is the reality of towing, say, a 1 to 1.5 tonne trailer? A caravan is that weight but the air resistance is far larger than a simple platform trailer.

Whilst EVs have regererative braking, meaning the footbrake isn't used as much. What about the hydraulics simply seizing up? In winter with the salt is it possible for the brakes to simply stop working without being noticed?

 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #512 on: May 06, 2018, 11:45:34 am »
Now compare that to an ICE sitting in traffic.  How much energy/watts are being consumed to power the engine?  2,000?  5,000 watts? 
ICE cars have start/stop systems which shut down the engine when the car isn't moving nowadays so your point is not valid.


Not in the United State.  So your point doesn’t apply to here.

Plus you know ICE strat/stop systems are BS, right?

https://youtu.be/k159M8QhCIE
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #513 on: May 06, 2018, 11:48:02 am »
If I recall correctly an ICE car with a full tank of gas just left ideling will run out of fuel in about 12 hours.
The engine in my car is rather big but it only takes 1.4 liters per hour idling. However, the fuel tank is not that large, so it seems max idle time without refueling is about 40 hours. 40 hours with free heat in the winter.

How does that 40 hours of free what work for you in the summer when you are running the air conditioner which also generates more free heat for you?
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #514 on: May 06, 2018, 12:48:40 pm »
Wow, what an extended discussion!

I think electric cars are it, but, I have never bought a new car and paying more than £25k for an electric car is simply impossible. So it is secondhand ones for me. Has anyone bought a secondhand EV? Other than from a main dealer, what was the experience like? What do you get for £3k, about what I can afford. For that in the UK you can buy a 10 year old car, possibly 70k miles, and if looked after will do another 10-15 years.

Other thoughts on EV.

On a hybrid, does anyone get problems with the unleaded fuel turning to glue after a time? It is said to be a problem but I haven't really faced it even with petrol generators not being used for months.

If you leave an EV for extended periods of time, does the battery discharge? Like your mobile phone, even with it off it needs charging every few days, not like my lamented Nokia 3310.

We have recently had a spate of bitterly cold, for the UK, weather. How much has the range dropped simply to run the 4-5kW of heating needed?

I am surprised that no one seems to have had problems with 10kg of copper charge cables disappearing over night. That is £40 of any ones money, and a whizz around the housing estate should turn up several cables. Good little earner.

What is the reality of towing, say, a 1 to 1.5 tonne trailer? A caravan is that weight but the air resistance is far larger than a simple platform trailer.

Whilst EVs have regererative braking, meaning the footbrake isn't used as much. What about the hydraulics simply seizing up? In winter with the salt is it possible for the brakes to simply stop working without being noticed?

Sounds liike someone has filled your brain with BS about electric cars. 

Let’s set the record straight for you.

Most people are not buying electric cars here in the US, they are leasing them for 3 years.  Why?  Cars  today are like cellphones.  Inprovements in technology and battery efficiency makes buying an electric car a bad idea.  In 3 years the the technology will have improved and like a 3 year old cell phone who want’s it?

Another reason is safety features.  Car safety improves with time.  In the US something like 40,000 - 50,000 die each year in automobile accidents.  You are more likely to die in an older car than a new one.

Then we have to talk about battery life.  The batteries in cars have a guaranteed 10 year life; but they do wear over time.  Cost to replace the batteries can be more than the car is worth.  So if one buys a 3 year old EV the batteries will have 30% or more wear on them.

Here in the US a lease payment is the same or less than a finance payment so it makes much more sense to lease than to buy.  If you really want a EV cas coming off lease are abundant and very affordable.

EV batteries do discharge over time, but no much.  We left our EV with 85% charge for 1.5 months while on vacation/holiday,  When we returned it had 85% charge.

It doesn’t get cold enough where I am for heat, but a post from someone in Canada where it gets cold said he looses about 10% battery range in the cold.  But if you have a hybrid you have a gas engine so realistily you buy a tank of petro a few miles sooner.

Gas in EVs which is the same gas used in ICE is the same.  It takes yers for it to go rancid.  With the type of driving we do we buy a tank of gas every two to three months.  I know of some EV drivers who purchase a tank once or twice a year.  Maybe where you are the quality of petro is poor.  So every few months drive the car using the engine.

Can you tow a trailer? Yup. But why?  Here in the US if one has a trailer or has more passengers we just rent a larger ICE car for the job.  I’ts very affordable.  If you tow a trailer every day/week an EV is the wrong tool for you.

Maybe you are made of money and don’t mind spending lots of money on cars.  I’m the opposite.  The amount off money one saves in fuel and maintenance with an EV is a lot compared to an ICE.  In one year we have saved thousands of dollars in not having to purchase as much petro.  Yes we are buying more electrity, but where we live and pay for electricity we can travel 4 or 5 miles on electricity where we could only travel one mile for the cost of petro.  And then add to the savings we don’t have to pay for all of added maintain expenses an ICE costs. 

All EVs have two breaking systems.  The regenerative and a breaking system like on any other car.  You will find with an EC car more of the undercarriage is protected from the elements unlike an ICE.  With ICE being more exposed to the elements and the salt one has to spend more money to maintain them.

All depends if you wan to spend more money on an ICE or less on an EV?  An EV might not be a good filt for your needs.  But for many of us who own EVs the money savings and the performance of an EV we will ever buy an ICE car again.




 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #515 on: May 06, 2018, 01:21:26 pm »
Is this guy correct?  ICE car manufactures like Ford lrave out/remove life saving safety features in their cars for the European and Australian markets? 

https://youtu.be/eUvSWce6ZA4
 

Offline gildasd

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #516 on: May 06, 2018, 03:33:30 pm »
With a colleague we were looking at second hand Nissan Leaf EV.
We both don’t do many Km but we need a car for children, shopping and our money generating hobbies. Plus, on his side, the tax laws in Holland (both state and local) make owning a low use small family size IC a bit expensive.

Taking into account predicted usage, cold weather and battery wear, the 2014 or newer Leaf was ideal...
We were very suprised to not be able to find a clean one under 10000€...
These thing are holding their price better than what the doomsayers predicted.

In any case, I still need a “big” car as I am renovating a house.
When we are done, we will get a second hand Leaf combined with rooftop solar and a battery.
I imagine that I am not alone in reaching this conclusion.

I'm electronically illiterate
 

Online coppice

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #517 on: May 06, 2018, 03:43:56 pm »
Is this guy correct?  ICE car manufactures like Ford lrave out/remove life saving safety features in their cars for the European and Australian markets? 
He doesn't say what they omitted for Europe and Australia, but presumably they complied with the local regulations. Cars are not made in a generic manner. They are customised for each market. This is more that just altering the package of optional features offered, like leather sets and climate control. Often the manufacturer has 2 or more body shell options, and selects the appropriate one for the target market. Safety kit, like cameras and autonomous emergency braking, are very market dependent. All new cars in the US must now have a reversing camera. With the poor rear visibility of most modern cars this seems like a good safety feature for pedestrians in car parks, as well as helping to avoid bumps to surrounding cars. Other countries don't even seem to be considering making a reversing camera compulsory.

The bottom line is you need to look in detail to see if the manufacturer is being cavalier about safety, or if they are rationally responding to local conditions.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #518 on: May 06, 2018, 04:16:57 pm »
Some cars have that feature. Most don't. In cars which do have it, many people find the need to disable it as the engine ages, as its gets quirky.

I've driven a couple of cars that had that ridiculous start/stop system and hated it. It works ok on a hybrid where you have the electric motor to start off the line but on a conventional ICE car produces an obnoxious lag and lurch that is especially noticeable in the typical stop & go traffic during busy times around here. Some of the earlier systems even shut off the engine while the AC is on and it starts blowing warm sticky air. Everyone I know who has one of those disables the system every time they get in the car, it won't stay turned off, you have to push the button every time. The whole thing is just a scam to exploit a loophole in the way emissions are measured, real world savings are negligible.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #519 on: May 06, 2018, 04:39:21 pm »
With a colleague we were looking at second hand Nissan Leaf EV.
We both don’t do many Km but we need a car for children, shopping and our money generating hobbies. Plus, on his side, the tax laws in Holland (both state and local) make owning a low use small family size IC a bit expensive.

Taking into account predicted usage, cold weather and battery wear, the 2014 or newer Leaf was ideal...
We were very suprised to not be able to find a clean one under 10000€...
These thing are holding their price better than what the doomsayers predicted.

In any case, I still need a “big” car as I am renovating a house.
When we are done, we will get a second hand Leaf combined with rooftop solar and a battery.
I imagine that I am not alone in reaching this conclusion.

Interesting how things are different in other countries.  In the US the Leaf is not that popular.  Out of curiosity I'm looking at prices here for a 2014 and they are around $10,000 to $13,000 USD asking price.

Can you lease?  The trend here in California is to lease EVs.  The monthly payment is the same or less than financing the purchase of a car.  And like smartphones the technology, software and battery life continues to change that it worth it to get a "new" car every 3 - 4 years.  In California we receive about $10,000 in tax credits and cash rebates.

Are battery systems worth it?  According to Dave battery systems (lead acid) or only 40% efficient.  That means for every 10 kWhr the your solar panels produce and store in the batteries you'll only get 6 kWhrs back.

I've asked many people if battery systems make financial sense.  Everyone says it does, but then no one has show the math calculations to support their claims.


 



 

 
 

Online coppice

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #520 on: May 06, 2018, 05:54:33 pm »
Some cars have that feature. Most don't. In cars which do have it, many people find the need to disable it as the engine ages, as its gets quirky.

I've driven a couple of cars that had that ridiculous start/stop system and hated it. It works ok on a hybrid where you have the electric motor to start off the line but on a conventional ICE car produces an obnoxious lag and lurch that is especially noticeable in the typical stop & go traffic during busy times around here. Some of the earlier systems even shut off the engine while the AC is on and it starts blowing warm sticky air. Everyone I know who has one of those disables the system every time they get in the car, it won't stay turned off, you have to push the button every time. The whole thing is just a scam to exploit a loophole in the way emissions are measured, real world savings are negligible.
In the rental cars I've driven with stop/start the engine keeps starting and stopping when you are in a traffic jam, to keep the battery topped up and the AC cool. At night, with the headlights and HVAC services running this endless starting and stopping gets pretty annoying, and doesn't seem like it can be very good for engine wear. Hybrids try to keeps the engine running in long bursts, to minimise this issue, but the non hybrid start/stop systems I've encountered don't.
 

Offline gildasd

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #521 on: May 06, 2018, 06:07:55 pm »
With a colleague we were looking at second hand Nissan Leaf EV.
We both don’t do many Km but we need a car for children, shopping and our money generating hobbies. Plus, on his side, the tax laws in Holland (both state and local) make owning a low use small family size IC a bit expensive.

Taking into account predicted usage, cold weather and battery wear, the 2014 or newer Leaf was ideal...
We were very suprised to not be able to find a clean one under 10000€...
These thing are holding their price better than what the doomsayers predicted.

In any case, I still need a “big” car as I am renovating a house.
When we are done, we will get a second hand Leaf combined with rooftop solar and a battery.
I imagine that I am not alone in reaching this conclusion.

Interesting how things are different in other countries.  In the US the Leaf is not that popular.  Out of curiosity I'm looking at prices here for a 2014 and they are around $10,000 to $13,000 USD asking price.

Can you lease?  The trend here in California is to lease EVs.  The monthly payment is the same or less than financing the purchase of a car.  And like smartphones the technology, software and battery life continues to change that it worth it to get a "new" car every 3 - 4 years.  In California we receive about $10,000 in tax credits and cash rebates.

Are battery systems worth it?  According to Dave battery systems (lead acid) or only 40% efficient.  That means for every 10 kWhr the your solar panels produce and store in the batteries you'll only get 6 kWhrs back.

I've asked many people if battery systems make financial sense.  Everyone says it does, but then no one has show the math calculations to support their claims.
I don’t lease or borrow money to get stuff. Leasing is renting that has a slick lawyer friend and is usually more expensive than owning.
Apart from this, I don’t know how lease contracts are written in the US, but here, finding a deserted crossroad to sell your soul to the Devil is better option.

I intend to wear this car to the ground, like the Iphone4 that I still use today. So any resale is a bonus, not a need. It will carry dirty kids, their dust covered dad and building/furniture material. Very little freeway, rarely will it reach a max of 120km of calm driving a day.
For second hand, there are no incentives, apart from not having certain yearly taxes and not having to lose an hour a week driving to fill up.

The battery is because, for new solar installations here, you basically give your production to the provider for free... So storing after using as much as possible during peak solar hours (either in the car or in the house) is better, if only on an emotional level!
I’ll be going towards a LiO from one of the Local suppliers here. The prices have gone down a lot, and if you can install it yourself, it will make sense in two to three years (did the maths a year ago, it’s in a box, somewhere) at the current energy price trends.
I need 14kWh, and that was stupid expensive last time I moved 4 years ago.

As an aside, I will be changing the roof in two years, and it will be made (by me) with the solar, so no paying twice (roof, then solar). Solar is silly cheap, the installation being the major cost, the alloy supports second, I am equipped to do both.

If I was Joe Twolefthands customer, having to pay somebody to do everything, it would probably be another story.
I'm electronically illiterate
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #522 on: May 06, 2018, 06:38:34 pm »
With a colleague we were looking at second hand Nissan Leaf EV.
We both don’t do many Km but we need a car for children, shopping and our money generating hobbies. Plus, on his side, the tax laws in Holland (both state and local) make owning a low use small family size IC a bit expensive.

Taking into account predicted usage, cold weather and battery wear, the 2014 or newer Leaf was ideal...
We were very suprised to not be able to find a clean one under 10000€...
These thing are holding their price better than what the doomsayers predicted.

In any case, I still need a “big” car as I am renovating a house.
When we are done, we will get a second hand Leaf combined with rooftop solar and a battery.
I imagine that I am not alone in reaching this conclusion.

Interesting how things are different in other countries.  In the US the Leaf is not that popular.  Out of curiosity I'm looking at prices here for a 2014 and they are around $10,000 to $13,000 USD asking price.

Can you lease?  The trend here in California is to lease EVs.  The monthly payment is the same or less than financing the purchase of a car.  And like smartphones the technology, software and battery life continues to change that it worth it to get a "new" car every 3 - 4 years.  In California we receive about $10,000 in tax credits and cash rebates.

Are battery systems worth it?  According to Dave battery systems (lead acid) or only 40% efficient.  That means for every 10 kWhr the your solar panels produce and store in the batteries you'll only get 6 kWhrs back.

I've asked many people if battery systems make financial sense.  Everyone says it does, but then no one has show the math calculations to support their claims.
I don’t lease or borrow money to get stuff. Leasing is renting that has a slick lawyer friend and is usually more expensive than owning.
Apart from this, I don’t know how lease contracts are written in the US, but here, finding a deserted crossroad to sell your soul to the Devil is better option.

I intend to wear this car to the ground, like the Iphone4 that I still use today. So any resale is a bonus, not a need. It will carry dirty kids, their dust covered dad and building/furniture material. Very little freeway, rarely will it reach a max of 120km of calm driving a day.
For second hand, there are no incentives, apart from not having certain yearly taxes and not having to lose an hour a week driving to fill up.

The battery is because, for new solar installations here, you basically give your production to the provider for free... So storing after using as much as possible during peak solar hours (either in the car or in the house) is better, if only on an emotional level!
I’ll be going towards a LiO from one of the Local suppliers here. The prices have gone down a lot, and if you can install it yourself, it will make sense in two to three years (did the maths a year ago, it’s in a box, somewhere) at the current energy price trends.
I need 14kWh, and that was stupid expensive last time I moved 4 years ago.

As an aside, I will be changing the roof in two years, and it will be made (by me) with the solar, so no paying twice (roof, then solar). Solar is silly cheap, the installation being the major cost, the alloy supports second, I am equipped to do both.

If I was Joe Twolefthands customer, having to pay somebody to do everything, it would probably be another story.

I think you need to re-think technology.  Why on Earth would you be using an iPhone 4 Today?  You can't run the latest apps, which might be required if you wnat to monitor your PV system and most importantly you can't apply the latest security updates which mean you can be the target of cyber-attackers.

Then there's the issue of the battery.  Are you still using the orinigal battery?  Probebly not.  How much and how many times have you had to replace the battery that was not mean to be replaced?

And isn't your iPhone 4 slow and missing a number of radios such as 802.11A and 80.211 C?

You also don't have the figerprint reader which means there are lot of apps which won't work suchs as Wallet and Apple Pay.  Why on Earth in this day of credit card theft would you not want to protect your credit cards and your credit?

And please don't tell me you are going to use cash for everthing.  Isn't is Sweden that's eliminating cash in just a few years?

You might be happy with an slow, unsecure iPhone 4 whihc is no longer supported.  But please do society a favor and upgarde to a smarphone that's secure by modern standards.  It's people like you running aroudn with unsecure, unsupproted devices which is allowing cybercriminals to steaal from good honest people.













 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #523 on: May 06, 2018, 06:45:28 pm »
Interesting how things are different in other countries.  In the US the Leaf is not that popular.
Relative to what? Currently it is selling in about the same numbers as the Volt - no's 6/7 on  the list of monthly EV sales Sales of Leafs have slowed but as of the end of 2016 it was, along with the Volt,  at the top of cumulative sales  - far above the competitors.


Quote
According to Dave battery systems (lead acid) or only 40% efficient
  I've never seen him say that but if so, it's inaccurate.  It depends entirely where you are on the charge/discharge curve.  It is not linear.   For deep cycle LA batteries at 50% SOC it can be as high as 90%.  At 90% SOC it will be closer to 50%.  At the very top - during the absorb phase of charging it will be down to a few percent.  Lots of data on this  - just do a web search...

This is not an issue if you understand proper battery based solar PV system design - especially now that PV panels are so cheap.   With deep cycle FLA batteries, you want a system designed to take your battery bank down near 50% SOC (but not below) in typical worse case - a few days with no sun scenarios.  You would also want to have generator (wind or hydro if you're lucky) back up for rare situations where there is no sun for longer.  In those cases where there is intermittent sun, you would be charging/discharging at the low end (50-70%) of the SOC curve where things are most efficient. 

When sunshine is plentiful - your system should not be discharging your battery bank below 80% SOC or so (overnight).  Yes, charge/discharge is inefficient there but you don't care because sun is plentiful.  People employ all kind of methods to make use of extra power production during time of plentifull sunshine and a full battery bank (such as "load shifting" or heating water).

The biggest mistake people make is undersizing their PV array (especially dumb given current low PV prices) or undersizing their battery bank so that it cannot provide enough power for a couple of days of no sun and still stay above 50%SOC.  The advantage of LiFePO4 banks is they can be drawn down much farther (as well and well as more efficient charge/discharge across the curve).

Now - if you're trying to milk you utilities rate structure and PV rebate system - by feeding back to the grid from your battery bank during peak hours - well you may have different design considerations and how that pencils out financially will of course depend on your system cost and what the incentive from your utility is. 

 

Offline gildasd

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #524 on: May 06, 2018, 07:26:38 pm »
I think you need to re-think technology.  Why on Earth would you be using an iPhone 4 Today?  You can't run the latest apps, which might be required if you wnat to monitor your PV system and most importantly you can't apply the latest security updates which mean you can be the target of cyber-attackers.

Then there's the issue of the battery.  Are you still using the orinigal battery?  Probebly not.  How much and how many times have you had to replace the battery that was not mean to be replaced?

And isn't your iPhone 4 slow and missing a number of radios such as 802.11A and 80.211 C?

You also don't have the figerprint reader which means there are lot of apps which won't work suchs as Wallet and Apple Pay.  Why on Earth in this day of credit card theft would you not want to protect your credit cards and your credit?

And please don't tell me you are going to use cash for everthing.  Isn't is Sweden that's eliminating cash in just a few years?

You might be happy with an slow, unsecure iPhone 4 whihc is no longer supported.  But please do society a favor and upgarde to a smarphone that's secure by modern standards.  It's people like you running aroudn with unsecure, unsupproted devices which is allowing cybercriminals to steaal from good honest people.

I work offshore (cable laying) half the time, I cannot use most apps behind multiple firewalls and satellite internet even if I wanted to.
We can send and receive emails, check news sites and forums - and that’s about it.
It still is on its original battery, it lasts two days including 8 hours of constant Podcast listening a day. Offshore, it goes for about 4 to 5 days. Treat your tools well and they last long.
The only thing that will make upgrade to an Refurbished SE later this year is 5G (some areas, such as gas fields, only have 5G, no 1,2,3 or 4G). I also have a work Android with no camera or GPS because some clients only allow that in their zone.

And we have a “House iPad” for anything really needed. The systems I intend to install are most certainly not IoT. There will be automation, but not IoT.
I’ll probably do something with a 555 just because.

I pay cash and with a bank card, I have a “credit card” as an emergency thing in countries that don’t accept my primary card. My bank has a very good and safe (if slow) internet payment system that I prefer over Wallet or Apple Pay.

I do not give a hoot about my “credit” as this is not how things work here. And the only debt I have is my house and I fully intend to keep it that way.

Not everyone lives in the same world as you.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2018, 08:02:07 pm by gildasd »
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