Author Topic: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?  (Read 257564 times)

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Offline glarsson

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #525 on: May 06, 2018, 09:02:10 pm »
And please don't tell me you are going to use cash for everthing.  Isn't is Sweden that's eliminating cash in just a few years?
Perhaps, but hardly relevant as "gildasd" and his iPhone 4 lives in Belgium.
 

Offline gildasd

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #526 on: May 06, 2018, 09:58:42 pm »
And please don't tell me you are going to use cash for everthing.  Isn't is Sweden that's eliminating cash in just a few years?
Perhaps, but hardly relevant as "gildasd" and his iPhone 4 lives in Belgium.
We are the grey boring mayonnaise lovers, they are the blond sexy lingonberries lovers.

I miss lingonberry sauce...
« Last Edit: May 06, 2018, 10:01:37 pm by gildasd »
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Offline glarsson

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #527 on: May 06, 2018, 10:06:49 pm »
We are the grey boring mayonnaise lovers, they are the blond sexy lingonberries lovers.
After visiting Belgium several years ago I started enjoying french fries with mayonnaise instead of boring ketchup.
Clams, french fries and mayonnaise.  :-+
 

Offline gildasd

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #528 on: May 06, 2018, 10:16:01 pm »
We are the grey boring mayonnaise lovers, they are the blond sexy lingonberries lovers.
After visiting Belgium several years ago I started enjoying french fries with mayonnaise instead of boring ketchup.
Clams, french fries and mayonnaise.  :-+
I’m French, and after 7 years in Belgium, i’m still amazed of what they will serve with mayo!
If a Swedish firm started making electrolytic capacitors, I bet they would be using berry juice.

In our last job, Our vessel picked up two loads of cable from Halden. The fjord between Norway and Sweden to get there is spectacular.
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Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #529 on: May 06, 2018, 11:24:51 pm »
We are the grey boring mayonnaise lovers, they are the blond sexy lingonberries lovers.
After visiting Belgium several years ago I started enjoying french fries with mayonnaise instead of boring ketchup.
Clams, french fries and mayonnaise.  :-+
:wtf: Who the hell eats fries with ketchup? Blasphemy!
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Offline james_s

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #530 on: May 07, 2018, 01:13:35 am »
I think you need to re-think technology.  Why on Earth would you be using an iPhone 4 Today?  You can't run the latest apps, which might be required if you wnat to monitor your PV system and most importantly you can't apply the latest security updates which mean you can be the target of cyber-attackers.

Then there's the issue of the battery.  Are you still using the orinigal battery?  Probebly not.  How much and how many times have you had to replace the battery that was not mean to be replaced?

And isn't your iPhone 4 slow and missing a number of radios such as 802.11A and 80.211 C?

You also don't have the figerprint reader which means there are lot of apps which won't work suchs as Wallet and Apple Pay.  Why on Earth in this day of credit card theft would you not want to protect your credit cards and your credit?

I was still using an iPhone 4 until just a few months ago when I got tired of not having enough space for photos and got an iPhone SE. Not everyone cares about running the latest apps, I sure don't. I've never really had any issue with security on my phone, but I don't do a lot of web surfing on it and I don't visit sketchy sites. I think most of the FUD is spread by device makers and app developers who depend on everyone replacing everything frequently. Who cares about the WiFi speed? It's a phone, I'm not downloading big files over the WiFi. My current phone has the fingerprint reader but I've never used it, I use cash or a credit card, I have no interest in a proprietary gimmick like Apple Pay. The only time I've ever had a credit card stolen was with an online purchase and it did nothing to my credit, I simply called the bank and contested the charge and it was immediately removed, no big deal. I replaced the battery in mine once, it took 5 minutes and cost less than $10. I've never understood why everyone says iPhones don't have replaceable batteries, at least on that model it was a piece of cake.

While I do like technology, it has always baffled me why so many people seem addicted to having the latest and greatest. I want to buy a smartphone, install all the apps I want, get everything set up just the way I want it and then freeze the configuration for the ~4-6 years that I use it. When there are compelling new capabilities in a new model I will replace it and repeat the same process. I hate updates, every time iOS updates my phone gets slower and slower even though I'm still using it for exactly the same purpose. Finally I got so fed up that I blocked Apple's update server on my network. I'm glad I did too because the latest iOS doesn't support 32 bit apps at all and I still have several I paid for and use that are abandoned and no longer updated.
 
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Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #531 on: May 07, 2018, 04:16:57 pm »
Interesting how things are different in other countries.  In the US the Leaf is not that popular.
Relative to what? Currently it is selling in about the same numbers as the Volt - no's 6/7 on  the list of monthly EV sales Sales of Leafs have slowed but as of the end of 2016 it was, along with the Volt,  at the top of cumulative sales  - far above the competitors.


Quote
According to Dave battery systems (lead acid) or only 40% efficient
  I've never seen him say that but if so, it's inaccurate.  It depends entirely where you are on the charge/discharge curve.  It is not linear.   For deep cycle LA batteries at 50% SOC it can be as high as 90%.  At 90% SOC it will be closer to 50%.  At the very top - during the absorb phase of charging it will be down to a few percent.  Lots of data on this  - just do a web search...

This is not an issue if you understand proper battery based solar PV system design - especially now that PV panels are so cheap.   With deep cycle FLA batteries, you want a system designed to take your battery bank down near 50% SOC (but not below) in typical worse case - a few days with no sun scenarios.  You would also want to have generator (wind or hydro if you're lucky) back up for rare situations where there is no sun for longer.  In those cases where there is intermittent sun, you would be charging/discharging at the low end (50-70%) of the SOC curve where things are most efficient. 

When sunshine is plentiful - your system should not be discharging your battery bank below 80% SOC or so (overnight).  Yes, charge/discharge is inefficient there but you don't care because sun is plentiful.  People employ all kind of methods to make use of extra power production during time of plentifull sunshine and a full battery bank (such as "load shifting" or heating water).

The biggest mistake people make is undersizing their PV array (especially dumb given current low PV prices) or undersizing their battery bank so that it cannot provide enough power for a couple of days of no sun and still stay above 50%SOC.  The advantage of LiFePO4 banks is they can be drawn down much farther (as well and well as more efficient charge/discharge across the curve).

Now - if you're trying to milk you utilities rate structure and PV rebate system - by feeding back to the grid from your battery bank during peak hours - well you may have different design considerations and how that pencils out financially will of course depend on your system cost and what the incentive from your utility is.

Your claims about LA batteries do not agree with Dave's video on the efficenceny or LA batteries.  Can you provide some factual data to support your claim as Dave did in his video?  If not, I'm going to beleive Dave and his data which shows LA battereis are only loose 40 % of there energy to heat in the chemical reaction of charginig and discharging.

LiFePO4 banks may have an advantage of being able to be drawn down much farther but they also suffer from crystalization and have a much sorter life span.

Our power compnay, PG&E is encouraging customers to "milk" them.  On some rate plans PG&E will purrcase excess power at $0.85 Kwhr and sell it back to you in th same day at $0.12 kHr.  How it pencil's out is easy.  For every kWhr you "sell to PG&E within a year at $0.85 kWhr one can get back almost 8 kWhrs when the rates are lower later in the day or year.

How does the power company storing ecess energy compare with batteries?  I think you will find it's not even close.

 



 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #532 on: May 07, 2018, 04:39:10 pm »
And please don't tell me you are going to use cash for everthing.  Isn't is Sweden that's eliminating cash in just a few years?
Perhaps, but hardly relevant as "gildasd" and his iPhone 4 lives in Belgium.

In the US the banks by law are no longer accepting cash from some customers.  I'm sure this is going to be the step in phasing out cash here.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #533 on: May 07, 2018, 04:46:36 pm »
Cash will be around for a long time to come. I mean we still have pennies, those have been useless for decades. I still encounter cash-only places in remote areas that have no cell service, in some cases no landlines even. People, especially those living in trendy tech hubs seem to forget that large numbers of people still live in rural areas with limited connectivity. There are still businesses like buying and selling of antiques, collectibles, and other esoteric high value stuff where people expect cash. I use a credit card for most of my day to day transactions but I've encountered enough cash-only situations that I always carry some with me.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #534 on: May 07, 2018, 04:56:04 pm »

Your claims about LA batteries do not agree with Dave's video on the efficenceny or LA batteries.
What video? He has several videos on battery charging - none on deep cycle LA batteries that I am aware of.

Quote
  Can you provide some factual data to support your claim as Dave did in his video? 

As I mentioned data easily found if you do a web search  ::)

In addition, I and many others have years of experience monitoring charge and discharge data from our own battery banks. AFAIK, Dave has no experience with deep cycle battery banks.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 04:59:28 pm by mtdoc »
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #535 on: May 07, 2018, 05:06:49 pm »
I think you need to re-think technology.  Why on Earth would you be using an iPhone 4 Today?  You can't run the latest apps, which might be required if you wnat to monitor your PV system and most importantly you can't apply the latest security updates which mean you can be the target of cyber-attackers.

Then there's the issue of the battery.  Are you still using the orinigal battery?  Probebly not.  How much and how many times have you had to replace the battery that was not mean to be replaced?

And isn't your iPhone 4 slow and missing a number of radios such as 802.11A and 80.211 C?

You also don't have the figerprint reader which means there are lot of apps which won't work suchs as Wallet and Apple Pay.  Why on Earth in this day of credit card theft would you not want to protect your credit cards and your credit?

I was still using an iPhone 4 until just a few months ago when I got tired of not having enough space for photos and got an iPhone SE. Not everyone cares about running the latest apps, I sure don't. I've never really had any issue with security on my phone, but I don't do a lot of web surfing on it and I don't visit sketchy sites. I think most of the FUD is spread by device makers and app developers who depend on everyone replacing everything frequently. Who cares about the WiFi speed? It's a phone, I'm not downloading big files over the WiFi. My current phone has the fingerprint reader but I've never used it, I use cash or a credit card, I have no interest in a proprietary gimmick like Apple Pay. The only time I've ever had a credit card stolen was with an online purchase and it did nothing to my credit, I simply called the bank and contested the charge and it was immediately removed, no big deal. I replaced the battery in mine once, it took 5 minutes and cost less than $10. I've never understood why everyone says iPhones don't have replaceable batteries, at least on that model it was a piece of cake.

While I do like technology, it has always baffled me why so many people seem addicted to having the latest and greatest. I want to buy a smartphone, install all the apps I want, get everything set up just the way I want it and then freeze the configuration for the ~4-6 years that I use it. When there are compelling new capabilities in a new model I will replace it and repeat the same process. I hate updates, every time iOS updates my phone gets slower and slower even though I'm still using it for exactly the same purpose. Finally I got so fed up that I blocked Apple's update server on my network. I'm glad I did too because the latest iOS doesn't support 32 bit apps at all and I still have several I paid for and use that are abandoned and no longer updated.


Why are you baffeld?  It's not that people are addicated to the technology, it's the technology changes.  Is there are reason you aren't driving a 50-75 year old car today?  Cars then, like today transport you at the same spped today as the did then.

The reason is the technology has changed.  Cars today produce less polution, have more functionality and are safer.

Same is true with technoloy, (computers, cell phones etc.) Is there a reason you aren't uing records or casseete tapes to listen to podcasts or music today?

But here's the real reason you should be updating your technology....  Security.  Your old technology can be used by cybercriminals to commit cyber crimes and you won't even know about it.  There are cases where the onwer of odler technology has been arrested as being a cybercriminal becuase her device was being used in a cybercrime.

So while you might be using an iPhone 4 or 5 thinking your are safe you are not and you are making it so socielty as a whole is not safe either.   Think of it this way.  You are one of those anti-vacination types and you brag to everyone becuase you didn't get vacinated.  And maybe you make fun of everyone who has been vacinated.  Then a travler comes to your village who has polio.  Everyone in the village except for you, buecause they have the latest technoloy doen't get the disease.

But you get the disease.  And maybe you have symptone or maybe you don't and become a carrier and act as a resivor so the polio virus can attack ohters.

Maybe you don't like the latest technology, but then you just updated so you are addicted just as everyone else who upgrades is.  Only problem you have is you are upgrading old technology to old technology and it's still not secure.

Think about your security and the security of others.








 





 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #536 on: May 07, 2018, 05:20:06 pm »

Your claims about LA batteries do not agree with Dave's video on the efficenceny or LA batteries.
What video? He has several videos on battery charging - none on deep cycle LA batteries that I am aware of.

Quote
  Can you provide some factual data to support your claim as Dave did in his video? 

As I mentioned data easily found if you do a web search  ::)

In addition, I and many others have years of experience monitoring charge and discharge data from our own battery banks. AFAIK, Dave has no experience with deep cycle battery banks.

I'm looking.  Out of curiosity how efficient do you think LA battery are?

This one is not from Dave but he explains why LA car batteries shoudl not be used for SLOAR.



Or try this web site  Here they say can be low as 60% which is what Dave said.

Have you ever charged a LA battery with battery charger?  The batteries can get quite warm.


https://www.solar-facts.com/batteries/battery-charging.php


Battery Efficiency
The Lead Acid battery is not 100% efficient at storing electricity - you will never get out as much as you put in when charging. Overall, an efficiency level of 85% is often assumed.
The efficiency will depend on a number of factors including the rate of charging or discharging. The higher the rate of charge or discharege, the lower the efficiency.
The state of charge of the battery will also affect charge efficiency. With the battery at half charge or less, the charge efficiency may be over 90%, dropping to nearer 60% when the battery is above 80% charged.
However it has been found that if a battery is only partially charged, efficency may be reduced with each charge. If this situation persists (the batteries never reaching full charge), the life of the battery may be reduced.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #537 on: May 07, 2018, 05:58:15 pm »
I'm looking.  Out of curiosity how efficient do you think LA battery are?

 Did you not read my prior post before responding to it? As I previously stated:

It depends entirely where you are on the charge/discharge curve.  It is not linear.   For deep cycle LA batteries at 50% SOC it can be as high as 90%.  At 90% SOC it will be closer to 50%.  At the very top - during the absorb phase of charging it will be down to a few percent.

Also it is important to understand not all LA batteries are the same. AGM  SLA are generally more efficient. Large traction batteries, less efficient.   

Here they say can be low as 60% which is what Dave said.
  In your prior post you said he said 40%.  Still waiting for you to let us know where he said that.

And yes, of course.  One should  not use automotive LA batteries for solar PV or any deep cycle application. They are not designed for that.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #538 on: May 08, 2018, 01:35:03 am »


Why are you baffeld?  It's not that people are addicated to the technology, it's the technology changes.  Is there are reason you aren't driving a 50-75 year old car today?  Cars then, like today transport you at the same spped today as the did then.

The reason is the technology has changed.  Cars today produce less polution, have more functionality and are safer.

Same is true with technoloy, (computers, cell phones etc.) Is there a reason you aren't uing records or casseete tapes to listen to podcasts or music today?

But here's the real reason you should be updating your technology....  Security.  Your old technology can be used by cybercriminals to commit cyber crimes and you won't even know about it.  There are cases where the onwer of odler technology has been arrested as being a cybercriminal becuase her device was being used in a cybercrime.


Because it's ridiculous to replace perfectly good equipment every few months to a year, shelling out money over and over for stuff I already paid for, turning resources into landfill at a rapid pace. Yes there is a reason I'm not driving a 50-75 year old car today, it's that I can't go out and buy one, and I can't just buy all the parts to maintain it. Also there were a few technological developments like fuel injection, disc brakes and crumple zones that really are a substantial improvement but those have been around for decades now. My daily driver is pushing up on 30 years old and I just hope I can find another one if something ever happens to it because it's so much cooler than anything new I've driven. If I could walk into a dealer and buy a brand new 80s-90s car today I absolutely would. You're absolutely right, cars today transport me just like cars did back then,  and the fuel economy of my 1990 car is nearly as good as many similar modern cars. Since you mention safety, I'll say that this car is a replacement for a slightly older model that got rear ended by a semi truck at freeway speed and I walked away from that very violent accident without a scratch, you'd have a hard time convincing me that a new car is going to do appreciably safer than that and if I wanted to drive an unsafe car (or motorcycle) then that's my choice anyway. Sure a newer car has more "functionality" if you mean bloated gadgets, gimmicks and stuff to break or get outdated but you can have all that, I want to *drive* the car, I want to shift the gears, I want to feel the road, I don't need or want a bunch of bloat and distracting toys.

I do listen to music on vinyl quite regularly, yes I also have digital music that I can play from my smartphone or stream from various gadgets around the house, I'm not an old fart, I know how to use all that stuff and the convenience is nice but vinyl still sounds great and playing a record is a different experience, not to mention digging through dusty boxes of them in thrift stores looking for something good.

Now security with older devices, blah blah blah, there's a name for what you're saying, it's called FUD. Yes there have been a few notable security issues but find me an incident of older iPhones being taken over by cybercriminals (has it *ever* happened?) and I'll find you 10 times as many cases of modern, fully patched, up to date systems infected because of the one thing you can't patch, the user. I have spent many hours of my life cleaning up malware, crapware, viruses, and other garbage from countless computers and you know how many of those have been due to some exploit in old outdated software? Zero, none, so far it has *always* been a case of users installing sketchy stuff, falling for popups, email scams, bundled crapware, you name it. So save it, I'm not going to replace my devices just because of your unfounded worries about security and cries that the sky is falling. This security FUD is a very recent phenomenon, it started spreading fast right about the time software and hardware plateued and suddenly a 2 year old device wasn't hopelessly obsolete, tech companies started to panic as they scrambled to find new ways to keep selling more products. Having worked in various parts of that industry for years I've seen it from the inside, everyone is pushing towards everything as a service, subscription, perpetual income for the company and "OMG! Security! Hackers!" is one of the leading marketing cries to spin the benefits of software rental and half-assed, ship it now, fix it "later" tinker with it constantly development methodologies.

So yes, as somebody who buys something, takes good care of it and expects to keep it for 5, 10, maybe 20+ years and keep using it until it no longer meets my needs, I remain baffled how so many people think it's necessary to constantly replace everything, throw money away and burn through the world's resources.
 
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Offline f4eru

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #539 on: May 08, 2018, 09:05:17 am »
Quote
For every kWhr you "sell to PG&E within a year at $0.85 kWhr one can get back almost 8 kWhrs when the rates are lower later in the day or year.
How does the power company storing ecess energy compare with batteries?

The thing is : The power company does not store energy.

Now, if you invest in cheap storage (Lithium batteries), you have to consider a few "details":
- The Power company does not like you, and will make everything possible to suck off money from your investment
- The Power company likes the daily smoothing and storing capability of your battery. You have to sell it to them (with better leverage if you are a group of people)
- The variable price will be smoothed somewhat on a daily scale once battery systems are economical will scale because a lot of people invest (that point can vary greatly between regions depending on local grid evolution.) Don't count on those price differences with today's rate to make money or recoup your investment!
- The variable price on a longer scale (weeks, months) will not be smoothed out by battery systems. Don't count on those price differences at all to make money!

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #540 on: May 08, 2018, 03:41:30 pm »


Why are you baffeld?  It's not that people are addicated to the technology, it's the technology changes.  Is there are reason you aren't driving a 50-75 year old car today?  Cars then, like today transport you at the same spped today as the did then.

The reason is the technology has changed.  Cars today produce less polution, have more functionality and are safer.

Same is true with technoloy, (computers, cell phones etc.) Is there a reason you aren't uing records or casseete tapes to listen to podcasts or music today?

But here's the real reason you should be updating your technology....  Security.  Your old technology can be used by cybercriminals to commit cyber crimes and you won't even know about it.  There are cases where the onwer of odler technology has been arrested as being a cybercriminal becuase her device was being used in a cybercrime.


Because it's ridiculous to replace perfectly good equipment every few months to a year, shelling out money over and over for stuff I already paid for, turning resources into landfill at a rapid pace. Yes there is a reason I'm not driving a 50-75 year old car today, it's that I can't go out and buy one, and I can't just buy all the parts to maintain it. Also there were a few technological developments like fuel injection, disc brakes and crumple zones that really are a substantial improvement but those have been around for decades now. My daily driver is pushing up on 30 years old and I just hope I can find another one if something ever happens to it because it's so much cooler than anything new I've driven. If I could walk into a dealer and buy a brand new 80s-90s car today I absolutely would. You're absolutely right, cars today transport me just like cars did back then,  and the fuel economy of my 1990 car is nearly as good as many similar modern cars. Since you mention safety, I'll say that this car is a replacement for a slightly older model that got rear ended by a semi truck at freeway speed and I walked away from that very violent accident without a scratch, you'd have a hard time convincing me that a new car is going to do appreciably safer than that and if I wanted to drive an unsafe car (or motorcycle) then that's my choice anyway. Sure a newer car has more "functionality" if you mean bloated gadgets, gimmicks and stuff to break or get outdated but you can have all that, I want to *drive* the car, I want to shift the gears, I want to feel the road, I don't need or want a bunch of bloat and distracting toys.

I do listen to music on vinyl quite regularly, yes I also have digital music that I can play from my smartphone or stream from various gadgets around the house, I'm not an old fart, I know how to use all that stuff and the convenience is nice but vinyl still sounds great and playing a record is a different experience, not to mention digging through dusty boxes of them in thrift stores looking for something good.

Now security with older devices, blah blah blah, there's a name for what you're saying, it's called FUD. Yes there have been a few notable security issues but find me an incident of older iPhones being taken over by cybercriminals (has it *ever* happened?) and I'll find you 10 times as many cases of modern, fully patched, up to date systems infected because of the one thing you can't patch, the user. I have spent many hours of my life cleaning up malware, crapware, viruses, and other garbage from countless computers and you know how many of those have been due to some exploit in old outdated software? Zero, none, so far it has *always* been a case of users installing sketchy stuff, falling for popups, email scams, bundled crapware, you name it. So save it, I'm not going to replace my devices just because of your unfounded worries about security and cries that the sky is falling. This security FUD is a very recent phenomenon, it started spreading fast right about the time software and hardware plateued and suddenly a 2 year old device wasn't hopelessly obsolete, tech companies started to panic as they scrambled to find new ways to keep selling more products. Having worked in various parts of that industry for years I've seen it from the inside, everyone is pushing towards everything as a service, subscription, perpetual income for the company and "OMG! Security! Hackers!" is one of the leading marketing cries to spin the benefits of software rental and half-assed, ship it now, fix it "later" tinker with it constantly development methodologies.

So yes, as somebody who buys something, takes good care of it and expects to keep it for 5, 10, maybe 20+ years and keep using it until it no longer meets my needs, I remain baffled how so many people think it's necessary to constantly replace everything, throw money away and burn through the world's resources.


The thing is it's not perfectly good if it has a security flaw is it. 
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #541 on: May 08, 2018, 03:55:00 pm »
Quote
For every kWhr you "sell to PG&E within a year at $0.85 kWhr one can get back almost 8 kWhrs when the rates are lower later in the day or year.
How does the power company storing ecess energy compare with batteries?

The thing is : The power company does not store energy.

Now, if you invest in cheap storage (Lithium batteries), you have to consider a few "details":
- The Power company does not like you, and will make everything possible to suck off money from your investment
- The Power company likes the daily smoothing and storing capability of your battery. You have to sell it to them (with better leverage if you are a group of people)
- The variable price will be smoothed somewhat on a daily scale once battery systems are economical will scale because a lot of people invest (that point can vary greatly between regions depending on local grid evolution.) Don't count on those price differences with today's rate to make money or recoup your investment!
- The variable price on a longer scale (weeks, months) will not be smoothed out by battery systems. Don't count on those price differences at all to make money!

What do you mean the power company/PG&E doesn't store energy? 
The heck they don't.  They store energy using a technique which is thouands of years old.  It's called water.
PG&E has many lakess and water reseviors for storing water.  The water is then released and creates electricty/hydroelectric power.  At night when people aren't using the electricty they pump the water back up hill to so it can be used over and over.  These resivor levels can vary 3 or 4 feet in one afternoon when electricity demands are high.


PLEASE GET YOUR FACTS STRIGHT

Please stop with the misinformation.   PG&E like all of the power companies were deregulated and can not make a profit off selling electctricity to their customers.  Ever hear of Enron?  If it wasn't for this deregulation and Enron purchasing PGE (not PG&E) it would be a different story.  This was somthing the public voted on.

So PLEASE STOP with the misinformaiton.



 

Online coppice

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #542 on: May 08, 2018, 05:31:01 pm »
PG&E has many lakess and water reseviors for storing water.  The water is then released and creates electricty/hydroelectric power.  At night when people aren't using the electricty they pump the water back up hill to so it can be used over and over.  These resivor levels can vary 3 or 4 feet in one afternoon when electricity demands are high.
If I Google "PG&E pumped storage" all the references I get seem to be to a single pumped storage system called Helms. Why don't the others show up? Are they not actually owned by PG&E?
 

Offline ahbushnell

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #543 on: May 09, 2018, 12:13:19 am »
PG&E has many lakess and water reseviors for storing water.  The water is then released and creates electricty/hydroelectric power.  At night when people aren't using the electricty they pump the water back up hill to so it can be used over and over.  These resivor levels can vary 3 or 4 feet in one afternoon when electricity demands are high.
If I Google "PG&E pumped storage" all the references I get seem to be to a single pumped storage system called Helms. Why don't the others show up? Are they not actually owned by PG&E?
He is confusing pumped storage with hydro. 
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #544 on: May 09, 2018, 01:44:56 am »
PG&E has many lakess and water reseviors for storing water.  The water is then released and creates electricty/hydroelectric power.  At night when people aren't using the electricty they pump the water back up hill to so it can be used over and over.  These resivor levels can vary 3 or 4 feet in one afternoon when electricity demands are high.
If I Google "PG&E pumped storage" all the references I get seem to be to a single pumped storage system called Helms. Why don't the others show up? Are they not actually owned by PG&E?
He is confusing pumped storage with hydro.


PG&E has many energy storage reservoirs in California.  Helms is just one of many.

Most have not looked too hard.  All did was look on PG&E's web site to see they list over 100 energy storage reservoirs in California’s Sierra Nevada mountain range.  And their web site states there are 67 powerhouses and collectively provide clean, green, non-polluting renewable electricity to over 4,000,000 homes.

Any idea why he thinks the power compnaies don't have energy storage?  They sure as heck do.

 
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #545 on: May 09, 2018, 01:52:55 am »
This guy explains LA batteries.  On par with Dave's videos.  Well worth watching.




 

Online coppice

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #546 on: May 09, 2018, 02:52:08 am »
PG&E has many lakess and water reseviors for storing water.  The water is then released and creates electricty/hydroelectric power.  At night when people aren't using the electricty they pump the water back up hill to so it can be used over and over.  These resivor levels can vary 3 or 4 feet in one afternoon when electricity demands are high.
If I Google "PG&E pumped storage" all the references I get seem to be to a single pumped storage system called Helms. Why don't the others show up? Are they not actually owned by PG&E?
He is confusing pumped storage with hydro.


PG&E has many energy storage reservoirs in California.  Helms is just one of many.

Most have not looked too hard.  All did was look on PG&E's web site to see they list over 100 energy storage reservoirs in California’s Sierra Nevada mountain range.  And their web site states there are 67 powerhouses and collectively provide clean, green, non-polluting renewable electricity to over 4,000,000 homes.

Any idea why he thinks the power compnaies don't have energy storage?  They sure as heck do.

The page at PG&E referring to 67 power houses is the hydroelectric power page, not a page on pumped storage. Sure, hydroelectric schemes store energy as water, just as oil fired systems store energy as oil in their tanks. However, the topic was battery like storage.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #547 on: May 09, 2018, 03:06:49 am »
PG&E has many lakess and water reseviors for storing water.  The water is then released and creates electricty/hydroelectric power.  At night when people aren't using the electricty they pump the water back up hill to so it can be used over and over.  These resivor levels can vary 3 or 4 feet in one afternoon when electricity demands are high.
If I Google "PG&E pumped storage" all the references I get seem to be to a single pumped storage system called Helms. Why don't the others show up? Are they not actually owned by PG&E?
He is confusing pumped storage with hydro.


PG&E has many energy storage reservoirs in California.  Helms is just one of many.

Most have not looked too hard.  All did was look on PG&E's web site to see they list over 100 energy storage reservoirs in California’s Sierra Nevada mountain range.  And their web site states there are 67 powerhouses and collectively provide clean, green, non-polluting renewable electricity to over 4,000,000 homes.

Any idea why he thinks the power compnaies don't have energy storage?  They sure as heck do.

The page at PG&E referring to 67 power houses is the hydroelectric power page, not a page on pumped storage. Sure, hydroelectric schemes store energy as water, just as oil fired systems store energy as oil in their tanks. However, the topic was battery like storage.

I'm no expert on this, but doesn't pumped storage a type of hydroelectic?
I will not agree with you about oil/coal bening energy storage like a battery.  Yes the energy is stored, but to recharge it will take millions of years.

Why isn't a refillable reesivor like a battery.  Energy is stored as potential energy just like it is in a battery.  As water is let out of the resivor it produces electricity.  Just like a battery if the water is pumped back to the inistial resivor it's like charging a battery.

What'st the difference.  Botth store energy and and are easlily recharged.   The burning of oil/gas/coal involved the burning or an oxidative reaction which is not as easily reversed.

Can you explain ? 




 

Online coppice

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #548 on: May 09, 2018, 04:34:20 am »
[Why isn't a refillable reesivor like a battery.  Energy is stored as potential energy just like it is in a battery.  As water is let out of the resivor it produces electricity.  Just like a battery if the water is pumped back to the inistial resivor it's like charging a battery.

What'st the difference.  Botth store energy and and are easlily recharged.   The burning of oil/gas/coal involved the burning or an oxidative reaction which is not as easily reversed.

Can you explain ?
Pumped storage systems have an upper and a lower pool, and swap water between them. Hydro power systems have no lower pool, so they have no source of water to refill the upper pool. Also, their generators do not generally have the ability to change modes and operate as pumps. An additional problem is that in rainy times the upper pool is probably full, so it may lack the capacity to take a daily cycling stock of additional water.
 

Offline Miyuki

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #549 on: May 09, 2018, 10:17:31 am »
If I could walk into a dealer and buy a brand new 80s-90s car today I absolutely would. You're absolutely right, cars today transport me just like cars did back then,  and the fuel economy of my 1990 car is nearly as good as many similar modern cars.
I sometimes drive one of my 80s car and they are still manufactured to this day as they moved factory to Uzbekistan ;D But I don't think you can buy one at "developed country" as they have still same engines and safety features as back then so wont pass today tests
And 1.5l 8 valve petrol engine with 3 speed automatic will run forever and parts are plentiful even old stock or can be ordered new if you wait few weeks
It is fun to drive
But safety is terrible especially at front corner crash and side impact is always awful without side airbags


And for topic question:
I would like to have and electric car but today is still TOC higher than gasoline car
When it will be cheaper I'll be happy to get one
 


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