When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?

[jh15]

I don't need a supercharger here, although there are a few in range of my small "tank".  Anyone buying a full EV will charge it at home overnight.

My S has more range every morning than my Honda Element of surprise with a full tank.

Real women don't pump gas, wife loves not having to 'go' to a gas station all the time.
     If you are a taxi company, I would get the longest range battery car to start with, and enjoy the lack of maintenance.

[richard.cs]

And you can ask a colleague to bring you 5l of fuel in a can... or you can have a spare 20l canister in your car. At the minute you can't do this with batteries, not even having a full boot of 2AAs

That depends rather on the car and how empty you ran it. Many diesels and modern (i.e. newer than about 1990) petrol cars need air bleeding from the fuel system before they'll restart if they were run to stopping. That's not an especially easy roadside task, and not one I'd expect the average driver to perform. Cranking it until the battery is dead then phoning the AA seems to be the more common response. 

[eugenenine]

The median commute distance in Canada is 7.7km ea way, or let's call that 16km/day.  An EV typically will get better than 20kWh/100km, or perhaps 3.2kWh of energy.

As most cars are parked overnight in a garage/carport/alongside house/apartment, I'd like to introduce my complete solution for at least 50% of the population when it comes to charging, to provide
a minimum of 1kW of charge, or the median commute in just 3.2 hours.  Just imagine with a typical overnight parking of 12-16 hours you too could have FOUR times what you need in terms of EV charging, without lining up at public facilities.

I call it "The Regular Wall Outlet" (may vary by jurisdiction - EU and AU versions are even faster than NA versions)

what happens when someone in your apartment complex unplugs your car so they can charge their iphone and then you wake up the next morning to a low battery?

[gildasd]

The median commute distance in Canada is 7.7km ea way, or let's call that 16km/day.  An EV typically will get better than 20kWh/100km, or perhaps 3.2kWh of energy.

As most cars are parked overnight in a garage/carport/alongside house/apartment, I'd like to introduce my complete solution for at least 50% of the population when it comes to charging, to provide
a minimum of 1kW of charge, or the median commute in just 3.2 hours.  Just imagine with a typical overnight parking of 12-16 hours you too could have FOUR times what you need in terms of EV charging, without lining up at public facilities.

I call it "The Regular Wall Outlet" (may vary by jurisdiction - EU and AU versions are even faster than NA versions)

what happens when someone in your apartment complex unplugs your car so they can charge their iphone and then you wake up the next morning to a low battery?

Violence?

[nctnico]

Or not but either way the EV owner will be very late at work because it will take way too long to charge. A similar scenario is not plugging the EV in properly or the charging isn't started for some reason so the EV isn't charged in the morning.

[Red Squirrel]

The median commute distance in Canada is 7.7km ea way, or let's call that 16km/day.  An EV typically will get better than 20kWh/100km, or perhaps 3.2kWh of energy.

As most cars are parked overnight in a garage/carport/alongside house/apartment, I'd like to introduce my complete solution for at least 50% of the population when it comes to charging, to provide
a minimum of 1kW of charge, or the median commute in just 3.2 hours.  Just imagine with a typical overnight parking of 12-16 hours you too could have FOUR times what you need in terms of EV charging, without lining up at public facilities.

I call it "The Regular Wall Outlet" (may vary by jurisdiction - EU and AU versions are even faster than NA versions)

what happens when someone in your apartment complex unplugs your car so they can charge their iphone and then you wake up the next morning to a low battery?

The car will still have charge left and you just make sure to charge it the next day or at work that day.  People always talk as if you're going to run the battery down to zero every day.   With a typical EV having a 100km+ range a single charge should last several days to a good week for general commuting.  Of course it's still good to try to keep it topped up most of the time as you need extra power to run the heater and de-icer etc.   But if the charge is running low you'd probably just sacrifice that and get in and go.

[free_electron]

The median commute distance in Canada is 7.7km ea way, or let's call that 16km/day.  An EV typically will get better than 20kWh/100km, or perhaps 3.2kWh of energy.

As most cars are parked overnight in a garage/carport/alongside house/apartment, I'd like to introduce my complete solution for at least 50% of the population when it comes to charging, to provide
a minimum of 1kW of charge, or the median commute in just 3.2 hours.  Just imagine with a typical overnight parking of 12-16 hours you too could have FOUR times what you need in terms of EV charging, without lining up at public facilities.

I call it "The Regular Wall Outlet" (may vary by jurisdiction - EU and AU versions are even faster than NA versions)

what happens when someone in your apartment complex unplugs your car so they can charge their iphone and then you wake up the next morning to a low battery?

it's Canada . eh ?  who would sit outside charging their phone in the snow ?
Civilized snowy countries like Canada and Finland and Norway have block-heater outlets in every parking stall of every parking lot. Simply plug in there.
a 220volt 10 amp circuit gives you 2.2kw per hour. plug in from 8 in the evening till 8 in the morning. that gives you 24 kw.

[cdev]

Increased reliance on electricity for heating and cooking would be a predictable outcome if the end user price of natural gas doubles or more.

That could cause a shift to electricity which would require more electric power generation capacity in the winters, especially, than current power systems may be able to deliver. However, if (EV charging) fits within the power budget already allocated for block heaters as detailed in the previous post, (if such a budget already exists) the problem is already solved. If not people should figure in the extra power needs, which could be substantial.

In places where block heaters are not in common use, there may be a rise in electric power demand in the winter- which by default would be most in demand in the evenings, after people get home from work or play and turn up the heat and lighting for dinner, etc. (right after plugging their EVs into the wall outlet or gas using or hybrid cars into the block heater.)

If people are relying more on electricity for heat (because of pricing increases of LNG) at the same times as they are depending on charging EVs for transport, we may need to install timers that default to staggering EV charging later into the evenings after people have gone to sleep- when they need less electricity for other uses like heating and cooking and video streaming, etc.

That is probably a good idea regardless. Those timers should have an override available, as well as some kind of quick charge mode, too.

[CatalinaWOW]

The median commute distance in Canada is 7.7km ea way, or let's call that 16km/day.  An EV typically will get better than 20kWh/100km, or perhaps 3.2kWh of energy.

As most cars are parked overnight in a garage/carport/alongside house/apartment, I'd like to introduce my complete solution for at least 50% of the population when it comes to charging, to provide
a minimum of 1kW of charge, or the median commute in just 3.2 hours.  Just imagine with a typical overnight parking of 12-16 hours you too could have FOUR times what you need in terms of EV charging, without lining up at public facilities.

I call it "The Regular Wall Outlet" (may vary by jurisdiction - EU and AU versions are even faster than NA versions)

what happens when someone in your apartment complex unplugs your car so they can charge their iphone and then you wake up the next morning to a low battery?

it's Canada . eh ?  who would sit outside charging their phone in the snow ?
Civilized snowy countries like Canada and Finland and Norway have block-heater outlets in every parking stall of every parking lot. Simply plug in there.
a 220volt 10 amp circuit gives you 2.2kw per hour. plug in from 8 in the evening till 8 in the morning. that gives you 24 kw.

Letting your wishes overcome reality isn't the engineering way.  I googled pictures of Canadian, Finnish and Norwegian parking lots with the following results.  I didn't see block heater outlets in the vast majority of the Canadian images.  They did exist in many, but appear to be less than half of the Finnish and Norwegian images.

I then looked at the Canadian Parking Lot Associations standards.  Saw no mention of electric power.  Lots of things like safety, customer service and the like.

The fact is that while electric cars are practical (and indeed the best choice) for a great many people, there are also a great many people with real barriers to their use.  Add those real barriers to the various psychological barriers and electric cars will not instantly take over the market.  This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.  Practical gasoline cars were available before the turn of the twentieth century, but they didn't dominate transportation everywhere for a couple of decades, and even today you find places and people who use horses.

[boffin]

The median commute distance in Canada is 7.7km ea way, or let's call that 16km/day.  An EV typically will get better than 20kWh/100km, or perhaps 3.2kWh of energy.

As most cars are parked overnight in a garage/carport/alongside house/apartment, I'd like to introduce my complete solution for at least 50% of the population when it comes to charging, to provide
a minimum of 1kW of charge, or the median commute in just 3.2 hours.  Just imagine with a typical overnight parking of 12-16 hours you too could have FOUR times what you need in terms of EV charging, without lining up at public facilities.

I call it "The Regular Wall Outlet" (may vary by jurisdiction - EU and AU versions are even faster than NA versions)

what happens when someone in your apartment complex unplugs your car so they can charge their iphone and then you wake up the next morning to a low battery?

Given I have never ever heard of someone's block heater being unplugged, I would expect the occurrence of that to be similar to "someone siphoned off all of my fuel from my tank" (which I have heard of, but for arguments sake we'll say the two are similar). Also, who goes outside to charge their iphone

I am stunned at the depths people will go to, to try and invent scenarios as to why electric car = bad.

[nctnico]

Well that is the reaction you get when you try to sell lemons like they are strawberries. You seem to be relentlessly looking for justification for your purchase and are completely blind for the fact you bought a lemon. But don't worry, after being fed up with your e-Golf you can trade it in for an ICE based car and never have to bother with finding chargers and plugging it in everywhere you go. And no more fights over chargers with other people who think they got there first, have more urgent matters or you have been charging long enough already. The financial loss will hopefully be worth not having the hassle any more.

One of the first hits on Google about 'charge rage' which is about people unplugging other people's EV to have theirs charged first:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10592660/Charge-Rage-electric-car-owners-get-angry-after-having-vehicles-unplugged.html
https://www.carkeys.co.uk/news/increasing-number-of-electric-car-drivers-falling-victim-to-charge-rage

[Red Squirrel]

Increased reliance on electricity for heating and cooking would be a predictable outcome if the end user price of natural gas doubles or more.

That could cause a shift to electricity which would require more electric power generation capacity in the winters, especially, than current power systems may be able to deliver. However, if (EV charging) fits within the power budget already allocated for block heaters as detailed in the previous post, (if such a budget already exists) the problem is already solved. If not people should figure in the extra power needs, which could be substantial.

In places where block heaters are not in common use, there may be a rise in electric power demand in the winter- which by default would be most in demand in the evenings, after people get home from work or play and turn up the heat and lighting for dinner, etc. (right after plugging their EVs into the wall outlet or gas using or hybrid cars into the block heater.)

If people are relying more on electricity for heat (because of pricing increases of LNG) at the same times as they are depending on charging EVs for transport, we may need to install timers that default to staggering EV charging later into the evenings after people have gone to sleep- when they need less electricity for other uses like heating and cooking and video streaming, etc.

That is probably a good idea regardless. Those timers should have an override available, as well as some kind of quick charge mode, too.

With the cost of hydro they have no excuse to not be able to keep up with demands.  The infrastructure is essentially free to them as no matter how little you use you're still paying around $100 per month in fixed fees such as delivery charge. It would be like paying your local pizza stores a delivery fee every day even if you don't order pizza.  When you do order pizza it better be damn good!

[ahbushnell]

Increased reliance on electricity for heating and cooking would be a predictable outcome if the end user price of natural gas doubles or more.

That could cause a shift to electricity which would require more electric power generation capacity in the winters, especially, than current power systems may be able to deliver. However, if (EV charging) fits within the power budget already allocated for block heaters as detailed in the previous post, (if such a budget already exists) the problem is already solved. If not people should figure in the extra power needs, which could be substantial.

In places where block heaters are not in common use, there may be a rise in electric power demand in the winter- which by default would be most in demand in the evenings, after people get home from work or play and turn up the heat and lighting for dinner, etc. (right after plugging their EVs into the wall outlet or gas using or hybrid cars into the block heater.)

If people are relying more on electricity for heat (because of pricing increases of LNG) at the same times as they are depending on charging EVs for transport, we may need to install timers that default to staggering EV charging later into the evenings after people have gone to sleep- when they need less electricity for other uses like heating and cooking and video streaming, etc.

That is probably a good idea regardless. Those timers should have an override available, as well as some kind of quick charge mode, too.

I would guess a block heater would pull alot less power then an EV charging. 

[boffin]

Well that is the reaction you get when you try to sell lemons like they are strawberries. You seem to be relentlessly looking for justification for your purchase and are completely blind for the fact you bought a lemon. But don't worry, after being fed up with your e-Golf you can trade it in for an ICE based car and never have to bother with finding chargers and plugging it in everywhere you go. And no more fights over chargers with other people who think they got there first, have more urgent matters or you have been charging long enough already. The financial loss will hopefully be worth not having the hassle any more.

One of the first hits on Google about 'charge rage' which is about people unplugging other people's EV to have theirs charged first:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10592660/Charge-Rage-electric-car-owners-get-angry-after-having-vehicles-unplugged.html
https://www.carkeys.co.uk/news/increasing-number-of-electric-car-drivers-falling-victim-to-charge-rage

Weirdly, no one has ever broken into my garage an unplugged anything, let alone the locked charging cable (yes it locks in when the car is locked). 

As I have explained many many times, shown numbers etc etc, it is 1/8th the cost to operate my electric car, vs the same thing in ICE. The price premium of the vehicle will be paid for in approx 50,000km at current petroleum/electricity rates (and I've never owned a vehicle for less than 130,000km). The payback will be much much faster if/when the electricity utility starts with overnight pricing too (we pay fixed rates).

Perhaps it doesn't work in your jurisdiction, or your personal situation, but you seem to have a "if it doesn't work for me, it can't possibly work for anyone" attitude, which is not really in line with this being an engineering fact-based forum.

Can you offer anything other than #alternativefacts to suggest why you think we purchasing an EV is a lemon for everyone in the world?

[jh15]

Tesla recently reduced their parts cost an released exploded view parts list.
"Someone" deleted the right side passenger mirror on the garage rail. I think she ignores the red flashes and alarms of close objects. Glad occupation is not airline pilot

In horror, I was thinking arggh, another 750 dollar mirror incident is what the Nissan Altima repair cost a few years ago. This time I didn't have to repair that again.

Downloaded the BOM, and picked just the heated and LCD dimming part. Cracked part I can order if I botch patching it.

Took a couple days from factory to showroom in Mass. Then another day to here in Maine.

Cost 125.00 from factory, and never got a bill and if not for a cracked "skull cap" fixed in minutes.
Waiting for some UV curing glue (going to research other's experience with it on EEV). to patch it up, otherwise plenty on Ebay for $70.00 or so.

Car goes together like Lego's so things just snapped back in place, like dislocated shoulder.

Interesting: I wasn't sure if we had the auto dim on the outside mirrors, then saw tiny bubbles around the cracks. LCD is almost turpentine, isn't it?

[free_electron]

Practical gasoline cars were available before the turn of the twentieth century, but they didn't dominate transportation everywhere for a couple of decades, and even today you find places and people who use horses.

funny... the first cars were electric...  and then some clever guy found black stuff bubbling from the earth that happened to be flammable and thought : i can make money off that...

[DougSpindler]

funny... the first cars were electric...  and then some clever guy found black stuff bubbling from the earth that happened to be flammable and thought : i can make money off that...

Friend you are making up history. 
THe first "car" was an ECE/External Compustion Engine or steam powered, 1769.
It was 50-60 years later for an electric vehicle and production wasn't until around 1880s.

The black stuff bubbling from the ground had been used for thousnads of years and was used by the Native Americans.


Not sure if you know but when crude oil was originally refined gasoline in the late 1800s it was considered a wate product and just dumped into streams to get rid of it.

Ford and Edison were working on electic cars.  In the late 1800s/early 1900s it was a three way reace between ICE, EXE and EV.  Consumers are the ones who decided EXE's wern't the answer eventhough steam had powered the industrial revolution for over 100 years.  Took 25-30 years for consumers to pull the plug on EVs.

[DougSpindler]

Anyone know about the FIRST Tesla electric car, a 1931 Pierce-Arrow Nikola converted to be all eclectic.  And the best part....  It don't have any batteries so no need for charging stations.  Acording to Tesla if ran on the energy from the universe.  That same energy he claimed could power the world.

If only Elon had Tesla's orgininal car we would all be driving aound in electrica cars powered by the universe.

[ahbushnell]

Anyone know about the FIRST Tesla electric car, a 1931 Pierce-Arrow Nikola converted to be all eclectic.  And the best part....  It don't have any batteries so no need for charging stations.  Acording to Tesla if ran on the energy from the universe.  That same energy he claimed could power the world.

If only Elon had Tesla's orgininal car we would all be driving aound in electrica cars powered by the universe.

Reference?

[vk6zgo]

Anyone know about the FIRST Tesla electric car, a 1931 Pierce-Arrow Nikola converted to be all eclectic.  And the best part....  It don't have any batteries so no need for charging stations.  Acording to Tesla if ran on the energy from the universe.  That same energy he claimed could power the world.

If only Elon had Tesla's orgininal car we would all be driving aound in electrica cars powered by the universe.

Nikola Tesla was pretty much "round the bend" by that time, claiming all sorts of nonsense.
Shame, as it detracts from his real achievements in the perfecting & application of polyphase AC.
 (He didn't invent it, neither did he make a radio system which was useable in any practical sense)

[DougSpindler]

Anyone know about the FIRST Tesla electric car, a 1931 Pierce-Arrow Nikola converted to be all eclectic.  And the best part....  It don't have any batteries so no need for charging stations.  Acording to Tesla if ran on the energy from the universe.  That same energy he claimed could power the world.

If only Elon had Tesla's orgininal car we would all be driving aound in electrica cars powered by the universe.

Reference?

In 1931, so the story goes, Tesla took his nephew to a garage in Buffalo, New York, and showed him a modified Pierce-Arrow automobile. The car’s ‘cosmic energy power receiver’ – a black box with 12 vacuum tubes – was connected to a long antenna.

The car was said to have been driven for about 80 km at speeds of up to 140 km/h during an eight-day road test. Tesla allegedly said the device would power the car forever, and also supply the needs of a household “with power to spare”.

It is a fact that in 1898 Tesla filed a patent for a “method of and apparatus for controlling mechanism of moving vessels or vehicles”.

https://cosmosmagazine.com/technology/did-nikola-tesla-build-a-revolutionary-electric-car

[DougSpindler]

Anyone know about the FIRST Tesla electric car, a 1931 Pierce-Arrow Nikola converted to be all eclectic.  And the best part....  It don't have any batteries so no need for charging stations.  Acording to Tesla if ran on the energy from the universe.  That same energy he claimed could power the world.

If only Elon had Tesla's orgininal car we would all be driving aound in electrica cars powered by the universe.

Nikola Tesla was pretty much "round the bend" by that time, claiming all sorts of nonsense.
Shame, as it detracts from his real achievements in the perfecting & application of polyphase AC.
 (He didn't invent it, neither did he make a radio system which was useable in any practical sense)

Extrodanary claims, need extrodanary proof. 

Around this time in Tesla’s life he claimed he was telepathically communication with people on Mars.  (Around this time the canals on Mars were reported discovered.).  Tesla was broke at this time and was trying to get investors to Give home money for his research projects.  The thing is, Tesla wasn’t really doing any research at this time.  Tesla was loved throwing lavish swag parties with lot women and drink.

Tesla (late in his life)  like ELon Musk made a lot of claims which defy the laws of physics.  Elon’s electric semi-trucks and trains come to mind.  This is not to say Elon like Tesla has not been brilliant so far.

What I would like to learn more about is the Edison/Ford partnership for building an electric car.  What happened?

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

What I would like to learn more about is the Edison/Ford partnership for building an electric car.  What happened?

In a nutshell, what happened is that gasoline cars were better. And still are, today. Jay Leno has a vidjeo of an electric car of that time in youtube.

[ahbushnell]

Anyone know about the FIRST Tesla electric car, a 1931 Pierce-Arrow Nikola converted to be all eclectic.  And the best part....  It don't have any batteries so no need for charging stations.  Acording to Tesla if ran on the energy from the universe.  That same energy he claimed could power the world.

If only Elon had Tesla's orgininal car we would all be driving aound in electrica cars powered by the universe.

Reference?

In 1931, so the story goes, Tesla took his nephew to a garage in Buffalo, New York, and showed him a modified Pierce-Arrow automobile. The car’s ‘cosmic energy power receiver’ – a black box with 12 vacuum tubes – was connected to a long antenna.

The car was said to have been driven for about 80 km at speeds of up to 140 km/h during an eight-day road test. Tesla allegedly said the device would power the car forever, and also supply the needs of a household “with power to spare”.

It is a fact that in 1898 Tesla filed a patent for a “method of and apparatus for controlling mechanism of moving vessels or vehicles”.

https://cosmosmagazine.com/technology/did-nikola-tesla-build-a-revolutionary-electric-car

Your reference concludes it didn't happen.  That patent was for remote control not magic power. 

[DougSpindler]

Anyone know about the FIRST Tesla electric car, a 1931 Pierce-Arrow Nikola converted to be all eclectic.  And the best part....  It don't have any batteries so no need for charging stations.  Acording to Tesla if ran on the energy from the universe.  That same energy he claimed could power the world.

If only Elon had Tesla's orgininal car we would all be driving aound in electrica cars powered by the universe.

Reference?

In 1931, so the story goes, Tesla took his nephew to a garage in Buffalo, New York, and showed him a modified Pierce-Arrow automobile. The car’s ‘cosmic energy power receiver’ – a black box with 12 vacuum tubes – was connected to a long antenna.

The car was said to have been driven for about 80 km at speeds of up to 140 km/h during an eight-day road test. Tesla allegedly said the device would power the car forever, and also supply the needs of a household “with power to spare”.

It is a fact that in 1898 Tesla filed a patent for a “method of and apparatus for controlling mechanism of moving vessels or vehicles”.

https://cosmosmagazine.com/technology/did-nikola-tesla-build-a-revolutionary-electric-car

Your reference concludes it didn't happen.  That patent was for remote control not magic power.

Depends on how you define didn’t happen.  Just like Elon’s EV semi-trucks he’s making claims.  As for seeing one on the road, I haven’t yet and the physics/math sure make it appear to be impossible.  Same for Teslas car which ran on vacuum tubes.  But it appears he did make the claim.  Just as 80 years from now people will look back and see Elon made the claim about having a EV semi and ask where is it?