Author Topic: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?  (Read 163053 times)

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Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2525 on: December 17, 2018, 04:02:40 pm »
Putting motors in the wheels is a really bad idea. The wheels and the parts attached to them should be as light as possible for optimal performance of the suspension system.

Did you watch the video?  Far less weight than the original wheels.
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2526 on: December 17, 2018, 05:37:53 pm »

Seems like if Europeans, especially the Germans, would drink less beer, and eat less bread it would greatly cut down on CO2 levels.  I suspect just having Germans stop drinking beer would reduce CO2 levels more so then having everyone drive EVs.  I think I need funding for a research project.  I'd like to know how much CO2 is released in Munich durning Octoberfest.

It's been proven that the bulk of the greengas comes from cows. They fart and burp too much methane.
Solution : eat more cows !
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Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2527 on: December 17, 2018, 06:00:30 pm »

Seems like if Europeans, especially the Germans, would drink less beer, and eat less bread it would greatly cut down on CO2 levels.  I suspect just having Germans stop drinking beer would reduce CO2 levels more so then having everyone drive EVs.  I think I need funding for a research project.  I'd like to know how much CO2 is released in Munich durning Octoberfest.

It's been proven that the bulk of the greengas comes from cows. They fart and burp too much methane.
Solution : eat more cows !

Cows are a made made animal/machine.  Grass goes in, gas comes out with mike, meat and profits as a byproduct.  Is there a part of a cow that’s not eatten or used?  Don’t think so.  A cow 100% recyclable.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2528 on: December 17, 2018, 06:26:31 pm »
EV car conversions appear to be a booming business here in California.  I was a bit surprised to see there are two companies just in Southern California doing conversions.  And one company is saying they have a 3 years waiting list.

Any companies in Europe, Australia or somewhere else doing the same?  Have to admit it’s “sounds” good especially if you like older carss.

And unlike Tesla’s 1931 Pierce Arrow which he claimed ran on energy from the universe.  One of these EV conversations companies is demonstrating it is possible to power cars from Energy from the universe.

Seems to me the car industry has been dead for decades.  EV’s are generating a lot of excitement.  In racing, and EV car conversions.  Wonder how EVs are changing NASCAR.  Elon and EVs are causing disruption.  Here in the US one can buy a Korean made EV around $25,000.  After cash rebates and tax credits in California purchase price less than $15,000.  And if one saves say $1,000 a year in petro cost of the new car is $5,000.  And I’m not including inflation or cost for oil changes and other maitance. 

I have to ask would you not buy one?  Lease or finance the thing and you pay what something like $125 per moth for a new car?  With technology in EV cars changing faster than cell phones or computers who would want to keep a car longer than the life of EV batteries.

Just as cell phones were a slow adpotioon, so are EVs.  But there’s no doubt people are interesting and consumers are buying them at an accelerated growth rate.  Just have to see how steep that cure is over the next 5 years as more EVs come to market.     

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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2529 on: December 17, 2018, 08:42:46 pm »
A couple of years back, a guy in Oz modified an old 1950s Renault 750 into an EV.
He did a really neat job, too.

There was a write up in the local magazine "Restored Cars".
Unfortunately, RC don't seem to have an Internet presence to link to.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2530 on: December 17, 2018, 09:15:22 pm »
In the 1980s there was guy in my neighborhood who converted a station wagon into an EV.  I remember under the hood where the should have been were lead acid batteries.  About all I remember.  I'm sure he's past and the car has been crushed.  I wonder what he would have used for a motor back then.

 

Online ahbushnell

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2531 on: December 17, 2018, 11:22:29 pm »

Seems like if Europeans, especially the Germans, would drink less beer, and eat less bread it would greatly cut down on CO2 levels.  I suspect just having Germans stop drinking beer would reduce CO2 levels more so then having everyone drive EVs.  I think I need funding for a research project.  I'd like to know how much CO2 is released in Munich durning Octoberfest.

It's been proven that the bulk of the greengas comes from cows. They fart and burp too much methane.
Solution : eat more cows !
We need electric cows.
 

Online james_s

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2532 on: December 18, 2018, 12:33:28 am »
In the 1980s there was guy in my neighborhood who converted a station wagon into an EV.  I remember under the hood where the should have been were lead acid batteries.  About all I remember.  I'm sure he's past and the car has been crushed.  I wonder what he would have used for a motor back then.

They typically used forklift motors and purpose built derivatives. These are large frame brushed dc motors with wound stators. Usually they could be switched between series and shunt winding.

About 10 years ago I saw an electric converted Miata that used lead acid and a forklift motor. The range was only a bit over 20 miles but it occurred to me that it would be adequate for my daily commute even if I couldn't charge at the office. Like bicycle or mass transit committing it simply requires a change in habit and mindset, and like those other popular options, it won't work for everybody.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2533 on: December 18, 2018, 01:46:58 am »
Turn by turn voice navigation from the 1970s....  Brillaint|!

https://youtu.be/KliWHCzE16c
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2534 on: December 18, 2018, 04:27:55 am »
In this form we talk about ICE vs. EV yet no mention of steam.  So when do you think steam cars were no longer being sold?  Less than 100 year ago one had a choice between a Ford (CE, Baker EV and a Doberman steam powered car.

https://youtu.be/rUg_ukBwsyo
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2535 on: December 18, 2018, 06:41:09 am »
I think there is a market for retrofit kits to turn an ICE into an EV.  I think this would be a great stepping stone for someone that wants to try EV but does not want to buy a new car.  There could be different ways of doing retro fit.  Either hub motors or simply switching out the whole drive train.

I wish I had a big heated garage so I can play with stuff like this myself.  I know nothing about working on cars but it would be a fun hobby to learn if I had a good work area for it.  Next property I buy I want to make sure there's room for a big ass garage, and that it's in an unorganized township. (don't need permits and other BS like that)
 

Online james_s

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2536 on: December 18, 2018, 07:10:14 am »
Retrofit is not the way to try out an EV, there's no way you could retrofit a car for any less than you can buy a ready to roll used EV for and retrofitting a car is a BIG job. It's not like you could do that with your daily driver, even for an experienced engineer or mechanic it would probably take several months and a lot of work to do the conversion during which time the car would be off the road. I've done several engine and transmission swaps and other major repairs and it always takes longer than it seems like it will and there's almost always some part you find you have to order after you've got it apart. It made sense to retrofit when you had the means and couldn't just buy a factory EV, or if you like car projects and want something unique but it's not gonna be a poor man's EV.

My dad and another friend of mine both bought Nissan Leafs that had come off lease, both were less than $10k and were practically like new. I bet a kit to do a decent conversion would cost at least that much, and you'd end up with something that doesn't work as well.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2537 on: December 18, 2018, 10:44:27 am »
Retrofit is not the way to try out an EV, there's no way you could retrofit a car for any less than you can buy a ready to roll used EV for and retrofitting a car is a BIG job. It's not like you could do that with your daily driver, even for an experienced engineer or mechanic it would probably take several months and a lot of work to do the conversion during which time the car would be off the road. I've done several engine and transmission swaps and other major repairs and it always takes longer than it seems like it will and there's almost always some part you find you have to order after you've got it apart. It made sense to retrofit when you had the means and couldn't just buy a factory EV, or if you like car projects and want something unique but it's not gonna be a poor man's EV.

My dad and another friend of mine both bought Nissan Leafs that had come off lease, both were less than $10k and were practically like new. I bet a kit to do a decent conversion would cost at least that much, and you'd end up with something that doesn't work as well.

Did you watch any of the video on conversion?  For the wheel EV conversions they are saying it can be done in an afternoon.  And for endive replacement for 100% EV cost is under $10,000 and you wind up with the car you want instead of something like a Leaf.  Look at the cars they have converted.  Original VW Bugs, VW Things, Porche, Camero, Karmin Ghea, as well as old classic American cars from the 1950s. 
 

Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2538 on: December 18, 2018, 11:15:08 am »
Retrofit is not the way to try out an EV, there's no way you could retrofit a car for any less than you can buy a ready to roll used EV for and retrofitting a car is a BIG job. It's not like you could do that with your daily driver, even for an experienced engineer or mechanic it would probably take several months and a lot of work to do the conversion during which time the car would be off the road. I've done several engine and transmission swaps and other major repairs and it always takes longer than it seems like it will and there's almost always some part you find you have to order after you've got it apart. It made sense to retrofit when you had the means and couldn't just buy a factory EV, or if you like car projects and want something unique but it's not gonna be a poor man's EV.

My dad and another friend of mine both bought Nissan Leafs that had come off lease, both were less than $10k and were practically like new. I bet a kit to do a decent conversion would cost at least that much, and you'd end up with something that doesn't work as well.
Did you watch any of the video on conversion?  For the wheel EV conversions they are saying it can be done in an afternoon.  And for endive replacement for 100% EV cost is under $10,000 and you wind up with the car you want instead of something like a Leaf.  Look at the cars they have converted.  Original VW Bugs, VW Things, Porche, Camero, Karmin Ghea, as well as old classic American cars from the 1950s.
Range? Charge time? Who is doing the maintenance? Safety? Judging from TV shows on car modification, in the US safety seems to be one of the last concerns... Nice toy projects but not suitable as a real car.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2539 on: December 18, 2018, 01:09:51 pm »
Retrofit is not the way to try out an EV, there's no way you could retrofit a car for any less than you can buy a ready to roll used EV for and retrofitting a car is a BIG job. It's not like you could do that with your daily driver, even for an experienced engineer or mechanic it would probably take several months and a lot of work to do the conversion during which time the car would be off the road. I've done several engine and transmission swaps and other major repairs and it always takes longer than it seems like it will and there's almost always some part you find you have to order after you've got it apart. It made sense to retrofit when you had the means and couldn't just buy a factory EV, or if you like car projects and want something unique but it's not gonna be a poor man's EV.

My dad and another friend of mine both bought Nissan Leafs that had come off lease, both were less than $10k and were practically like new. I bet a kit to do a decent conversion would cost at least that much, and you'd end up with something that doesn't work as well.
Did you watch any of the video on conversion?  For the wheel EV conversions they are saying it can be done in an afternoon.  And for endive replacement for 100% EV cost is under $10,000 and you wind up with the car you want instead of something like a Leaf.  Look at the cars they have converted.  Original VW Bugs, VW Things, Porche, Camero, Karmin Ghea, as well as old classic American cars from the 1950s.
Range? Charge time? Who is doing the maintenance? Safety? Judging from TV shows on car modification, in the US safety seems to be one of the last concerns... Nice toy projects but not suitable as a real car.

Did you watch the videos?  Range is determined by the customer and space for battery packs.  As for safety it depends on the make model of the car and safety features.  Yes these are projects but the point is people are doing it.  Ten years ago these conversions did not exist.  Imagine driving around in a 1965 Ford Mustang or a 1991 Porche that’s an EV.

These conversion kits and conversion to EV companies are just another indication EVs are becoming mainstream.  They are showing any car can be an EV, no matter how old or classic.
 

Offline eugenenine

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2540 on: December 18, 2018, 01:47:09 pm »

I have to ask would you not buy one?  Lease or finance the thing and you pay what something like $125 per moth for a new car?  With technology in EV cars changing faster than cell phones or computers who would want to keep a car longer than the life of EV batteries.


Because I already have a paid off vehicle so it costs me $0 per month.  Thats what will slow adoption.  Somewhere I saw a metric that shows people are keeping vehicles longer than they used to so it will take a long time for everyone to adopt ev's
 

Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2541 on: December 18, 2018, 01:59:58 pm »
Range? Charge time? Who is doing the maintenance? Safety? Judging from TV shows on car modification, in the US safety seems to be one of the last concerns... Nice toy projects but not suitable as a real car.
Did you watch the videos?  Range is determined by the customer and space for battery packs.  As for safety it depends on the make model of the car and safety features.  Yes these are projects but the point is people are doing it.  Ten years ago these conversions did not exist.  Imagine driving around in a 1965 Ford Mustang or a 1991 Porche that’s an EV.

These conversion kits and conversion to EV companies are just another indication EVs are becoming mainstream.  They are showing any car can be an EV, no matter how old or classic.
You are missing the point. These kits have a very limited market. You won't be able to take it to a regular garage or dealer for maintenance. Also in many countries changing the engine / power means having the car re-certified (for good reasons!). Even in the US the insurance rate may go up significantly if you modify your car: https://www.dmv.org/insurance/modified-car-insurance-coverage.php
« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 02:04:09 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2542 on: December 18, 2018, 04:54:48 pm »
I did watch the video.  The wheel conversion kit looks like a neat performance enhancement, and possibly a useful way to convert to all electric.

But the guy in the video is a salesman, and stretched the truth in several places, as have some of those touting these conversions.

In the video, the cost of a 2 wheel conversion is given as just under $10,000.  And estimated that a rebuilt Prius battery would cost $2000-$3000.  So even without costs for the little odds and ends of nuts and bolts required to tie cables down and bolt pieces to the structure this isn't an under $10,000 dollar conversion.  Not necessarily a deal breaker, but once you have stretched the truth once, everything else you say is suspect.

Installing in an hour seems like a miracle to me.  That sounds like plenty for removing the old wheels and hubs and installing the new hubs, but getting the holes cut for wiring, bolting in the control boxes, connecting to the CAN bus and bolting in the battery just sounds like more than what is left of the hour, even for someone who has done several of these installations.  Someone doing it on their own for the first time will be much longer.  On the other hand, finishing in a weekend seems very feasible and makes this a really practical, just oversold conversion.

Other issues.  This particular conversion doesn't seem compatible with driven wheels and so converting wheels that don't already have a stationary hub will be a bigger deal.  But maybe I am missing something obvious.  Also requires a newer vehicle that already has CAN bus along with compatible traffic on that bus.  And indirect reference that there will be customization fees for vehicles with wheel sizes different than the Honda shown.  And the larger diameter brake rotor that makes room for the electric motor seems to require the low profile tires shown.  Good for going around corners.  Not so good if you regularly encounter pot holes and other road irregularities or value a smooth ride.

Finally.  That particular conversion has absolutely horrible gear noise.  It dominated the tire noise, wind noise and the noise from the ICE.  The salesman tried to convert the wart into a feature by touting the "wonderful turbine-like sound", but most will tire of this rapidly.  Also such noise can be associated with gear wear so life may be an issue.  The noise problem should be susceptible to more engineering, but the available product isn't there yet.

All in all an intriguing product, but not a magic solution for everyone.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2543 on: December 18, 2018, 05:52:43 pm »
I did watch the video.  The wheel conversion kit looks like a neat performance enhancement, and possibly a useful way to convert to all electric.

But the guy in the video is a salesman, and stretched the truth in several places, as have some of those touting these conversions.

In the video, the cost of a 2 wheel conversion is given as just under $10,000.  And estimated that a rebuilt Prius battery would cost $2000-$3000.  So even without costs for the little odds and ends of nuts and bolts required to tie cables down and bolt pieces to the structure this isn't an under $10,000 dollar conversion.  Not necessarily a deal breaker, but once you have stretched the truth once, everything else you say is suspect.

Installing in an hour seems like a miracle to me.  That sounds like plenty for removing the old wheels and hubs and installing the new hubs, but getting the holes cut for wiring, bolting in the control boxes, connecting to the CAN bus and bolting in the battery just sounds like more than what is left of the hour, even for someone who has done several of these installations.  Someone doing it on their own for the first time will be much longer.  On the other hand, finishing in a weekend seems very feasible and makes this a really practical, just oversold conversion.

Other issues.  This particular conversion doesn't seem compatible with driven wheels and so converting wheels that don't already have a stationary hub will be a bigger deal.  But maybe I am missing something obvious.  Also requires a newer vehicle that already has CAN bus along with compatible traffic on that bus.  And indirect reference that there will be customization fees for vehicles with wheel sizes different than the Honda shown.  And the larger diameter brake rotor that makes room for the electric motor seems to require the low profile tires shown.  Good for going around corners.  Not so good if you regularly encounter pot holes and other road irregularities or value a smooth ride.

Finally.  That particular conversion has absolutely horrible gear noise.  It dominated the tire noise, wind noise and the noise from the ICE.  The salesman tried to convert the wart into a feature by touting the "wonderful turbine-like sound", but most will tire of this rapidly.  Also such noise can be associated with gear wear so life may be an issue.  The noise problem should be susceptible to more engineering, but the available product isn't there yet.

All in all an intriguing product, but not a magic solution for everyone.

No disagreements with anything you said.  But the one guy claims to have a 2-3 year waiting list for the conversions.  It would be intersting to see what custoerms have to say about each of the conversions.   Not sure if this is his main business or a side business for both of them.

I wonder how many companies are doing this.  There are entire trade shows devoted to EV conversions so there must be more than the 3 companies I know of in California. 

 





 

Online james_s

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2544 on: December 18, 2018, 06:01:12 pm »
Because I already have a paid off vehicle so it costs me $0 per month.  Thats what will slow adoption.  Somewhere I saw a metric that shows people are keeping vehicles longer than they used to so it will take a long time for everyone to adopt ev's


The goal has never been for everyone to adopt EVs, they do not cover everyone's needs. 50+ years from now there will likely still be a lot of ICE powered cars on the road and that's fine, replacing all of them is not necessary. The vast majority of cars on the road are less than 15 years old though, they do wear out or get wrecked, new cars are sold every day. Variety is an advantage, not a problem. With a variety of power sources we are not dependent on any one particular one.
 

Offline boffin

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2545 on: December 18, 2018, 06:03:32 pm »
No disagreements with anything you said.  But the one guy claims to have a 2-3 year waiting list for the conversions.  It would be intersting to see what custoerms have to say about each of the conversions.   Not sure if this is his main business or a side business for both of them.

I wonder how many companies are doing this.  There are entire trade shows devoted to EV conversions so there must be more than the 3 companies I know of in California. 


"Full Charged" on YouTube (Robert Llewellyn, Johnnie Smith) reviewed a UK company that had done a Land Rover, and they also covered the (factory done) E-type that was used in the recent royal wedding (I so want that E-type); so it's a popular thing in the UK.  Even Wheeler Dealers did a Masarati Bi-Turbo (although that could have been better)
 

Online coppice

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2546 on: December 18, 2018, 06:28:34 pm »
No disagreements with anything you said.  But the one guy claims to have a 2-3 year waiting list for the conversions.  It would be intersting to see what custoerms have to say about each of the conversions.   Not sure if this is his main business or a side business for both of them.

I wonder how many companies are doing this.  There are entire trade shows devoted to EV conversions so there must be more than the 3 companies I know of in California. 
"Full Charged" on YouTube (Robert Llewellyn, Johnnie Smith) reviewed a UK company that had done a Land Rover, and they also covered the (factory done) E-type that was used in the recent royal wedding (I so want that E-type); so it's a popular thing in the UK.  Even Wheeler Dealers did a Masarati Bi-Turbo (although that could have been better)
Jaguar are supposed to be releasing a conversion kit to turn 1960s E-Type Jaguars into EVs, in a reversable manner. Presumably this is commercialising the conversion which was done for the wedding.
 

Online james_s

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2547 on: December 18, 2018, 06:35:58 pm »
I have to think the result of a conversion is going to be far less than optimal, especially if it's done on the cheap. Personally I'd rather leave classic cars in original condition, I mean how many people are commuting to work in a 1960s Jaguar? There are some cars that would make far better conversions than others, but overall it's still going to be a niche no matter what. Very few people are interested in dumping ~$10k into a random old car, I've had people give me older cars just because they needed a few hundred bucks worth of work that was trivial to do myself. Converting a car is like upgrading a very old PC, it can be done and once in a while it might even be cost effective, but for the vast majority of people it makes more sense to replace the whole thing.
 

Online coppice

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2548 on: December 18, 2018, 06:42:30 pm »
I have to think the result of a conversion is going to be far less than optimal, especially if it's done on the cheap. Personally I'd rather leave classic cars in original condition, I mean how many people are commuting to work in a 1960s Jaguar? There are some cars that would make far better conversions than others, but overall it's still going to be a niche no matter what. Very few people are interested in dumping ~$10k into a random old car, I've had people give me older cars just because they needed a few hundred bucks worth of work that was trivial to do myself. Converting a car is like upgrading a very old PC, it can be done and once in a while it might even be cost effective, but for the vast majority of people it makes more sense to replace the whole thing.
If find it odd that they are making conversion kits, rather than whole new E-Type cars.
 

Online james_s

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2549 on: December 18, 2018, 06:51:28 pm »
You can probably blame government regulations for that. Overzealous safety regulations make it impossible to reproduce older car models. Personally I think it should be possible to newly manufacture cars of an older design so long as they are sold as such and not implied to meet current regulations. Or just have an exempt class, which is currently done by making something with 3 wheels and classifying it as a motorcycle. 4 wheels would be safer all else being equal, but wouldn't allow exploiting that loophole. If there was an exempt class that didn't depend on the number of wheels then it would make things much simpler. Sort of like aircraft, there are "experimental" classed airplanes that do not have to meet all the requirements of certified craft.
 


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