Author Topic: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?  (Read 162200 times)

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Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2550 on: December 19, 2018, 12:46:18 pm »
You can probably blame government regulations for that. Overzealous safety regulations make it impossible to reproduce older car models. Personally I think it should be possible to newly manufacture cars of an older design so long as they are sold as such and not implied to meet current regulations. Or just have an exempt class, which is currently done by making something with 3 wheels and classifying it as a motorcycle. 4 wheels would be safer all else being equal, but wouldn't allow exploiting that loophole. If there was an exempt class that didn't depend on the number of wheels then it would make things much simpler. Sort of like aircraft, there are "experimental" classed airplanes that do not have to meet all the requirements of certified craft.

Become a politician and write the law.  Every car company would love to be free of governmental regulation.  The reason we have and need governmental regulation is to protect the drivers, passengers and the public from car companies who created death traps.  How many years did it take for car companies to install seat belts?  Wasn’t it close to 25 years?  And how many millions of people lost their lives or were seriously injured in cars without seatbelts?  There are time we need to say thank you for gobernment regulation.
 
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Online eugenenine

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2551 on: December 19, 2018, 01:29:42 pm »
Or maybe its because no one buys new jaguars?
 

Online coppice

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2552 on: December 19, 2018, 01:34:34 pm »
You can probably blame government regulations for that. Overzealous safety regulations make it impossible to reproduce older car models. Personally I think it should be possible to newly manufacture cars of an older design so long as they are sold as such and not implied to meet current regulations. Or just have an exempt class, which is currently done by making something with 3 wheels and classifying it as a motorcycle. 4 wheels would be safer all else being equal, but wouldn't allow exploiting that loophole. If there was an exempt class that didn't depend on the number of wheels then it would make things much simpler. Sort of like aircraft, there are "experimental" classed airplanes that do not have to meet all the requirements of certified craft.
You are probably right. A lot of incremental changes to lighting and other requirements over the decades would need to be worked into the old design, which might be aesthetically difficult. A 1960s car, even an up market one like a Jaguar, would get a 0 star NCAP rating if tested today. That might be a bit of an issue when trying to market the car, and would probably need some serious structural changes to address.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2553 on: December 19, 2018, 05:17:16 pm »
How about a Ford Pinto with the exploding gas tank?  Or the Ford Explodedr. Errr  I mean Explorer.
Would they be except? 
 
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Online boffin

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2554 on: December 19, 2018, 05:51:39 pm »
You can probably blame government regulations for that. Overzealous safety regulations make it impossible to reproduce older car models. Personally I think it should be possible to newly manufacture cars of an older design so long as they are sold as such and not implied to meet current regulations. Or just have an exempt class, which is currently done by making something with 3 wheels and classifying it as a motorcycle. 4 wheels would be safer all else being equal, but wouldn't allow exploiting that loophole. If there was an exempt class that didn't depend on the number of wheels then it would make things much simpler. Sort of like aircraft, there are "experimental" classed airplanes that do not have to meet all the requirements of certified craft.

'Overzealous' regulations have dropped the death rate (per billion vehicle miles) from 49.2 in 1961 when the E-type was 1st released, down to 11.6 (2017) today. 

Perhaps they weren't 'overzealous' after all, but instead very effective.


 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2555 on: December 19, 2018, 06:09:08 pm »
You can probably blame government regulations for that. Overzealous safety regulations make it impossible to reproduce older car models. Personally I think it should be possible to newly manufacture cars of an older design so long as they are sold as such and not implied to meet current regulations. Or just have an exempt class, which is currently done by making something with 3 wheels and classifying it as a motorcycle. 4 wheels would be safer all else being equal, but wouldn't allow exploiting that loophole. If there was an exempt class that didn't depend on the number of wheels then it would make things much simpler. Sort of like aircraft, there are "experimental" classed airplanes that do not have to meet all the requirements of certified craft.

'Overzealous' regulations have dropped the death rate (per billion vehicle miles) from 49.2 in 1961 when the E-type was 1st released, down to 11.6 (2017) today. 

Perhaps they weren't 'overzealous' after all, but instead very effective.

Have to say as a kid growing up in America I remember seeing and hearing about deaths from highway accidents.  But as the years have passed accident rates have gone up, and if you look at some of the mangled cars one has to wonder why the people in the car were not killed.  And shockingly these people get extricated from cars or climb out without a scratch.  I think the only think we can all say is Thank You Government regulators for REQUIRING cars to be made safer for all of us. 
 

Online james_s

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2556 on: December 19, 2018, 07:19:11 pm »
'Overzealous' regulations have dropped the death rate (per billion vehicle miles) from 49.2 in 1961 when the E-type was 1st released, down to 11.6 (2017) today. 

Perhaps they weren't 'overzealous' after all, but instead very effective.

But shouldn't I be able to make that choice myself? I can buy a motorcycle, they're more dangerous than pretty much any car made in the last 50 years. People know they're dangerous, they buy them anyway. Why can't I buy an exempt class 4 wheeled car knowing it is likely more dangerous than a fully regulated modern car? I can still drive my existing nearly 30 year old car, why can't I buy a new one just like it? I call it overzealous because it takes that choice away from me, I don't need government regulations to protect me from myself.
 

Online james_s

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2557 on: December 19, 2018, 07:24:42 pm »
Have to say as a kid growing up in America I remember seeing and hearing about deaths from highway accidents.  But as the years have passed accident rates have gone up, and if you look at some of the mangled cars one has to wonder why the people in the car were not killed.  And shockingly these people get extricated from cars or climb out without a scratch.  I think the only think we can all say is Thank You Government regulators for REQUIRING cars to be made safer for all of us.

I walked away from a serious highway accident in a 30 year old Volvo, got creamed by a semi tanker truck and got out without a scratch. Volvo took safety seriously, it didn't have to be required. I chose the car largely because of its reputation as a safe car, not because it was forced on me by regulations. I immediately went out and found a very similar car just a couple years newer to replace it, I would buy a brand new one today if I could. I'm not going to thank the government for being a nanny, screw the government, I'm a huge fan of personal choice, and if a person chooses to buy a car that is clearly not in compliance with the latest safety regulations that is their choice. I chose to buy a used car knowing full well that it would not meet modern safety regulations, why can't I buy a new old car with that same knowledge?
 

Offline cdev

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2558 on: December 19, 2018, 09:15:31 pm »
'Overzealous' regulations have dropped the death rate (per billion vehicle miles) from 49.2 in 1961 when the E-type was 1st released, down to 11.6 (2017) today. 

Perhaps they weren't 'overzealous' after all, but instead very effective.

But shouldn't I be able to make that choice myself? I can buy a motorcycle, they're more dangerous than pretty much any car made in the last 50 years. People know they're dangerous, they buy them anyway. Why can't I buy an exempt class 4 wheeled car knowing it is likely more dangerous than a fully regulated modern car? I can still drive my existing nearly 30 year old car, why can't I buy a new one just like it? I call it overzealous because it takes that choice away from me, I don't need government regulations to protect me from myself.

Sounds to me people who exprress opinions like yours rarely know how skewed the situation is, they beleive the claptrap about 'tort reform' which is largely a complete fabrication, or aren't really taking into account HOW stupid or how greedy manufacturers can sometimes be. Or how devastating the effects of their bad decision making can be to large numbers of people who make purchase decisions that turn into nightmares for them and have no way to get justice.

(Also, keep in mind the astronomical rate of unintentional man-caused injuries in hospitals- now the third highest cause of death in the US.)

But first lets look at a hypothetical injury caused by a manufacturer defect and the ability of the family of somebody who was killed by it to get justice.

The laws are changing in favor of manufacturers because of the insane "law and economics movement" . What that means is that the chance people have of getting justice is much lower now than it was not long ago simply because of arguments like the one that the cost of fixing any mistake has to be weighed against the cost of paying off anybody who successfully sues and wins. (or more often than not because of subrogation clauses, Imagine this, somebody is injured by a known defect and is in a hospital and the cost is hundreds of dollars a day, but their health insurance company, and are about to be discharged, their family having no idea how they are going to pay for their care for the rest of their lives, after they have gone through a suit and spent their own money bringing the case, suddenly a hand reaches in and takes the money.)

 Additionally, cases that in the past would bring a substantial settlement no longer do because of falling incomes for people in various demographic categories and new rules in how cases are disposed of. Lives are worth less and less. This is likely by design.

Falling incomes make the chance of every having to pay significant damage awards smaller and smaller because frankly, they are based on lost incomes and if the statistics say that somebody living in the victim's zip code is unlikely to earn much more in their lives after say 55 - well, lets just put it this way, in the US no matter how clear and damning the facts are no lawyer would take their case and without a lawyer on contingency hiring one will cost their bereaved family $300 an hour minimum.

Another common problem in seeking justice is subrogation clauses. What that means is the health insurance company that paid benefits out to treat their injury gets repaid out of any money won first.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 09:28:45 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2559 on: December 19, 2018, 09:17:16 pm »
Have to say as a kid growing up in America I remember seeing and hearing about deaths from highway accidents.  But as the years have passed accident rates have gone up, and if you look at some of the mangled cars one has to wonder why the people in the car were not killed.  And shockingly these people get extricated from cars or climb out without a scratch.  I think the only think we can all say is Thank You Government regulators for REQUIRING cars to be made safer for all of us.

I walked away from a serious highway accident in a 30 year old Volvo, got creamed by a semi tanker truck and got out without a scratch. Volvo took safety seriously, it didn't have to be required. I chose the car largely because of its reputation as a safe car, not because it was forced on me by regulations. I immediately went out and found a very similar car just a couple years newer to replace it, I would buy a brand new one today if I could. I'm not going to thank the government for being a nanny, screw the government, I'm a huge fan of personal choice, and if a person chooses to buy a car that is clearly not in compliance with the latest safety regulations that is their choice. I chose to buy a used car knowing full well that it would not meet modern safety regulations, why can't I buy a new old car with that same knowledge?

If you are a big fan of personal choice than you should appreciate what Ford did Volvo's safety record in an effort to reduce costs.  I have owned two Volvo's and will admit they one of the safest cars on the road.  But... they cost a fortune in repairs.  My neighbor in over 10 years spent $12,000 more than he paid for the cost of the car.  Interesting to see what the Chinese are gong to do with Volvo. 
 

Online james_s

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2560 on: December 20, 2018, 01:44:20 am »
Ford ruined Volvo, they viewed it as just another brand, and changed the focus away from safety and practicality instead trying to compete with Audi in the luxury market. By the mid 2000's they had become bloated beyond recognition, almost 1,000 lbs heavier and full of massive amounts of silly gadgets and expensive luxury junk. I want something simple, sporty, and tremendously practical which is what I have now. It's fun to drive, I can fold down the back seat and transport a sofa, a stack of lumber or enough gear for a week long camping trip. It's mechanically simple and robust, easy to work on, sturdy and dependable.

I haven't personally found the older ones to cost appreciably more than most other cars to maintain. I bought the '87 740 Turbo for $500 and drove it as a daily driver for 17 years before it got totaled. I probably spent on average $200-$300 a year in maintenance and it had 330,000 miles on it by the time it met its demise. I'd buy a brand new 740 today if I could, in my view it's as safe as a car needs to be. I can't buy a new one though so I'll continue driving an old one as long as I can find them and keep them going. There is a point of diminishing returns when adding more safety features and I would gladly pass on that extra small percentage of safety vs having my car written off because half a dozen airbags deploy in a relatively minor collision.

It still seems silly to me that a 3 wheeled car can be exempt from the safety requirements but a four wheeled car can't. Why is that the deciding factor? If we are going to mandate safety then why can one still buy a motorcycle? At what point can we say something is good enough and stop mandating more and more bloat that makes cars unaffordable to buy and repair?
 

Online CatalinaWOW

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2561 on: December 20, 2018, 04:02:20 am »
The reason isn't right, but it is fairly simple.  Motorcycles are such a small part of the market they don't contribute much to the total deaths.  Death rate is too mathematically sophisticated for the politickers and those who elect them.  And motorcyclists lobby effectively for what they care about.  Those who care about simpler, sportier cars don't care enough to lobby effectively.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2562 on: December 20, 2018, 07:49:06 am »
Get into a serious accident in a car and one is liable to walk away.  Serious accident on a motorcycle Avon’s you far likely to be six feet under.

As for 3 wheeled vehicles take a look at the Dymixa.  It was an amazing 3 wheeled car.  On the Highway the driver was killed in an accident.  That was the the end of 3 wheeled vehicles.  It latter came out the accident was caused by someone who gawking at the Damixa and hit it killing the driver.  But the “truth” came out after the damage in ther public eye was already irreserable.  Well worth Googling Damixa.
 

Offline jmelson

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2563 on: December 20, 2018, 10:03:00 pm »
Get into a serious accident in a car and one is liable to walk away.  Serious accident on a motorcycle Avon’s you far likely to be six feet under.

As for 3 wheeled vehicles take a look at the Dymixa.  It was an amazing 3 wheeled car.  On the Highway the driver was killed in an accident.  That was the the end of 3 wheeled vehicles.  It latter came out the accident was caused by someone who gawking at the Damixa and hit it killing the driver.  But the “truth” came out after the damage in ther public eye was already irreserable.  Well worth Googling Damixa.
That's Dymaxion, by Buckminster Fuller.

Jon
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2564 on: December 20, 2018, 10:35:26 pm »
Thank you for the correction.  Damixia is the manufacture of my kitchen faucet.   I was close.
 

Offline f4eru

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2565 on: December 21, 2018, 09:46:33 am »
But shouldn't I be able to make that choice myself?
No, you shouldn't.
Uninformed car buyers are not in a position to make a good choice about safety.
Also, you don't make the choice anyway, because you don't choose the car that will crash into you.
A car has not only to be safe for the people inside, but also, as much as possible, for the people and vehicles it will hit.

But you still have the choice of buying an used older car, if you like to ride death traps.

Meanwhile, the safest car on the road is now an EV:
https://newatlas.com/tesla-model-3-safest-car/56687/
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 10:09:14 am by f4eru »
 
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Online eugenenine

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2566 on: December 21, 2018, 01:03:39 pm »
I wish someone would sell something than just a car though.

I should have kept my old s10 and done a conversion like https://www.qsl.net/k5lxp/ev/evtruck/evtruck.html
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2567 on: December 21, 2018, 03:37:07 pm »
I wish someone would sell something than just a car though.

I should have kept my old s10 and done a conversion like https://www.qsl.net/k5lxp/ev/evtruck/evtruck.html

What do you want that’s more than a car?  For decades a guy in California has been working on the Moller flying car.  He’s built and flown many poptotypes. Then I remember the amphibious ducks, car/boats.  Only problem with them is they sank.  And let’s not forget the Delorean car/submarine that’s was James Bond used.  Or the fusion powered Delorean in “Back to the Future”.  EV Deloreans were suppose to be produced.  And I’m sure one could buy Delorean and convert it to an EV.
 

Online eugenenine

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2568 on: December 21, 2018, 05:57:15 pm »
Suv, cuv truck, etc.  I learned early on that cars are too limited, I'm willing to pay a little more for something with more functionality than just carrying people and a little bit of groceries.
 

Online boffin

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2569 on: December 21, 2018, 06:11:02 pm »
... And let’s not forget the Delorean car/submarine that’s was James Bond used.  ....

it was a Lotus, not a Delorean.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2570 on: December 22, 2018, 03:08:17 pm »
Here’s why Ford and VW will get along so well with each other.   Ford Execs prisoner for torturing employees.
EV test drive - The good and the bad of EVs.

https://youtu.be/Rqi5dJSYc2c

https://youtu.be/PRTfVTETD8I


 

Online coppice

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2571 on: December 22, 2018, 04:05:24 pm »
... And let’s not forget the Delorean car/submarine that’s was James Bond used.  ....

it was a Lotus, not a Delorean.
I thought everyone knew that a Lotus dives and a DeLorean flies.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2572 on: December 22, 2018, 07:09:48 pm »
... And let’s not forget the Delorean car/submarine that’s was James Bond used.  ....

it was a Lotus, not a Delorean.
I thought everyone knew that a Lotus dives and a DeLorean flies.

I thought Lotus (flowers) float and DeLorean’s go to jail and become electric.
 

Online coppice

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2573 on: December 22, 2018, 09:37:50 pm »
I thought Lotus (flowers) float and DeLorean’s go to jail and become electric.
By your standard, lotus is for eating and making tea.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #2574 on: December 22, 2018, 10:33:15 pm »
Any Volt owners?  Over the past couple of weeks I've noticed after a full night of charging the battery range as indicated on the dash has dropped by close to 30%.  I realize it's winter and temperature here in California have dropped in the really cold low 60s.  Is a 30% decrease or just over 40 miles sound about "right" for colder temperature?  Or is this premature battery failure?
 


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