Author Topic: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?  (Read 184656 times)

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Offline apis

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3125 on: February 05, 2019, 02:40:59 pm »
What prevents them from lobbying until ad-blockers become illegal? Looking at how things are going with copyright issues that seems to be the more likely scenario.

"The original length of copyright in the United States was 14 years, and it had to be explicitly applied for. If the author wished, they could apply for a second 14‑year monopoly grant, but after that the work entered the public domain, so it could be used and built upon by others."

Today it's:

"In most of the world, the default length of copyright is the life of the author plus either 50 or 70 years."

You are mistaken about copyright laws in the United States.  Take a look at "It's a Wonderful Life".  Can't remember but I think it's the death of the creator plus 100 years.  You'll need to verify.
They call the US copyright act the Disney act for a reason. It extended Disney's copyright on early movies just enough to keep them in copyright, without being so long that it would bring things like Tchaikovsky's ballet scores into copyright.
Here in Sweden the copyright lobby have managed to get their own private tax on storage media, so whenever you buy a hard drive, an USB flash drive, a smart phone or any other kind storage media, a percentage goes to a private organisation owned by the music industry that then distribute that money to their members in some way out of government control. Completely insane.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_copying_levy#Sweden
 

Online Kjelt

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3126 on: February 05, 2019, 04:55:05 pm »
 :--
Here in Sweden the copyright lobby have managed to get their own private tax on storage media, so whenever you buy a hard drive, an USB flash drive, a smart phone or any other kind storage media, a percentage goes to a private organisation owned by the music industry that then distribute that money to their members in some way out of government control. Completely insane.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_copying_levy#Sweden
Same in the Netherlands but it is indeed strange because it would ligitimize illegal copying media since you already paid for it  :)
Rational Logic and Law are incompatible.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3127 on: February 05, 2019, 05:11:51 pm »
Unless you live in a one street country I'm sure there are multiple paths to take you from your location to your destination.  What's the difference between a route and a detour?  I use Google maps when traveling from one destination to another and am typically given multiple routes based on time, mileage or traffic conditions.  Each of these routes takes me past different stores and businesses. Why do you call that a detour?  It's just one of many routes.

From what you have described you AND your wife would be prime candidates to be advertised to when traveling is robo-cars.  The meta data your are providing just in these posts tells a lot about you, your family and shopping habits.  That's exactly what the advertisers AI engine is looking for.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3128 on: February 05, 2019, 05:25:50 pm »
Unless you live in a one street country I'm sure there are multiple paths to take you from your location to your destination.  What's the difference between a route and a detour?  I use Google maps when traveling from one destination to another and am typically given multiple routes based on time, mileage or traffic conditions.  Each of these routes takes me past different stores and businesses. Why do you call that a detour?  It's just one of many routes.
Cities in Europe are layed out different compared the US in general. In the US you often have a grid of roads so there are many different routes possible to a destination. In Europe you often see that cities have circular road systems (often the result from old fortifications) which have one or two optimal routes. Everything else is a long detour.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3129 on: February 05, 2019, 06:11:45 pm »
Unless you live in a one street country I'm sure there are multiple paths to take you from your location to your destination.  What's the difference between a route and a detour?  I use Google maps when traveling from one destination to another and am typically given multiple routes based on time, mileage or traffic conditions.  Each of these routes takes me past different stores and businesses. Why do you call that a detour?  It's just one of many routes.
Cities in Europe are layed out different compared the US in general. In the US you often have a grid of roads so there are many different routes possible to a destination. In Europe you often see that cities have circular road systems (often the result from old fortifications) which have one or two optimal routes. Everything else is a long detour.

Was not my experience in London. Oxford, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Belfast, Dublin, Wales and Frankfurt a few months ago.  In Iceland there was only one road from the Airport to our Hotel, so I will agree with you there.  But once in Reykjavik there were multiple routes to get from one destination to another.  I guess if you lived in the Alps or a the top of the Zugspitze there might only be one route, but even then I'm not so sure.  Even traveling in Switzerland through the Gotthard Road Tunnel there were multiple paths from origin to destination.   I would not consider any of these alternate routes a detour.

Heck even when we were the small city of Kuchen there were multiple routes to get from one destination to another.

Even on the small Caribbean island of Montserrat there are multiple routes to get from one location to another.

What you are describing just has not been my experience in my travels and extended stays in Europe.  So maybe where you live is the exception.






 

Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3130 on: February 05, 2019, 06:56:59 pm »
Rubbish. If there was an alternative for the Gotthard Road tunnel then why did they bother to dig a 17km long tunnel through one of the thougest mountains to dig a tunnel through? Why do people wait for hours to get through the Gotthard Road tunnel. I hope you are not suggesting to take the Mont-blanc tunnel or drive over the Gotthard mountain. Both are seriously long detours. The latter is a nice scenic route on a sunny day though if you can stomage driving your car over some seriously windy, narrow and steep roads.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 07:03:01 pm by nctnico »
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Online coppice

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3131 on: February 05, 2019, 08:03:29 pm »
Unless you live in a one street country I'm sure there are multiple paths to take you from your location to your destination.  What's the difference between a route and a detour?  I use Google maps when traveling from one destination to another and am typically given multiple routes based on time, mileage or traffic conditions.  Each of these routes takes me past different stores and businesses. Why do you call that a detour?  It's just one of many routes.
Cities in Europe are layed out different compared the US in general. In the US you often have a grid of roads so there are many different routes possible to a destination. In Europe you often see that cities have circular road systems (often the result from old fortifications) which have one or two optimal routes. Everything else is a long detour.
In the UK Google maps will usually offer 2 or 3 routes which are pretty similar in length and predicted journey time, and another route or 2 which might be 20% to 50% longer in distance or predicted time. The latter may be good choices if the primary choices are unexpectedly congested. Having only one sensible route is a rarity.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3132 on: February 05, 2019, 11:39:20 pm »
But out of those 3 options 1 usually makes no sense at all and the other is less efficient. So that leaves one or two direct routes. It seems to me Google maps is programmed to show at least 2 or 3 options where one will take the inner city roads and the other one the highway. Some people don't like the inner city roads and some people don't like highways so providing these options makes sense.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3133 on: February 05, 2019, 11:43:02 pm »
But out of those 3 options 1 usually makes no sense at all and the other is less efficient. So that leaves one or two direct routes. It seems to me Google maps is programmed to show at least 2 or 3 options where one will take the inner city roads and the other one the highway. Some people don't like the inner city roads and some people don't like highways so providing these options makes sense.

Exactly - In a self driving car you won't be given any options and the businesses who pay the advertisers fees will have you driving right by their business a little more slowly.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3134 on: February 05, 2019, 11:50:08 pm »
But out of those 3 options 1 usually makes no sense at all and the other is less efficient. So that leaves one or two direct routes. It seems to me Google maps is programmed to show at least 2 or 3 options where one will take the inner city roads and the other one the highway. Some people don't like the inner city roads and some people don't like highways so providing these options makes sense.

Exactly - In a self driving car you won't be given any options and the businesses who pay the advertisers fees will have you driving right by their business a little more slowly.
In most parts of Europe any other route than the most optimal one will be a detour so don't keep insisting self driving cars will show this kind of idiotic behaviour. They won't do that because people will bring them back to the dealership to have the navigation system fixed.

I just checked some random routes and every time Google maps shows the alternatives like I wrote above.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3135 on: February 05, 2019, 11:53:21 pm »
But out of those 3 options 1 usually makes no sense at all and the other is less efficient. So that leaves one or two direct routes. It seems to me Google maps is programmed to show at least 2 or 3 options where one will take the inner city roads and the other one the highway. Some people don't like the inner city roads and some people don't like highways so providing these options makes sense.

Exactly - In a self driving car you won't be given any options and the businesses who pay the advertisers fees will have you driving right by their business a little more slowly.
In most parts of Europe any other route then the most optimal one will be a detour so don't keep insisting self driving cars will show this kind of idiotic behaviour. They won't do that because people will bring them back to the dealership to have the navigation system fixed.

I just checked some random routes and every time Google maps shows the alternatives like I wrote above.

Funny your the only one that thinks that.  As others and I have posted that's not been our experience.  Try updating your map app.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3136 on: February 06, 2019, 12:05:46 am »
Yeah sure. I'll give Google a call tomorrow that their maps.google.com website is broken.
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Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3137 on: February 06, 2019, 12:09:33 am »
Yeah sure. I'll give Google a call tomorrow that their maps.google.com website is broken.

Just trying to understand why you only get one route and why you say everything is a detour?  You are the only one saying this is unique to Europe.  Not been my experience and so far no one else agrees with you.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3138 on: February 06, 2019, 12:21:47 am »
The others probably never really cared to analyse the options Google maps provides.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3139 on: February 06, 2019, 12:23:28 am »
The others probably never really cared to analyse the options Google maps provides.

Or no one else shares in your reality.  Try dumping your and join the reality everyone else is in.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3140 on: February 06, 2019, 12:30:03 am »
Try it yourself and show the results here. You'll see Google maps will show routes exactly as I described a few posts earlier.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline apis

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3141 on: February 06, 2019, 01:49:37 am »
:--
Here in Sweden the copyright lobby have managed to get their own private tax on storage media, so whenever you buy a hard drive, an USB flash drive, a smart phone or any other kind storage media, a percentage goes to a private organisation owned by the music industry that then distribute that money to their members in some way out of government control. Completely insane.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_copying_levy#Sweden
Same in the Netherlands but it is indeed strange because it would ligitimize illegal copying media since you already paid for it  :)
Rational Logic and Law are incompatible.
Yes, they introduced it to compensate for losses due to people making private copies and sharing them with their family and friends. That is not ok anymore apparently, but at the same time they insist on their private tax on digital storage. >:(
 

Offline IanMacdonald

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3142 on: February 07, 2019, 06:40:14 pm »
On EVs, thing is, a car is a car and why should anyone be subsidized or given tax breaks to buy a car?

I was amazed when some Greens started supporting nuclear power after decades of campaigning against it. At least there is some justification there, in that the Greens (rightly or wrongly) think that CO2 from fossil fuels will destroy the planet.

In the case of EVs though, Greens promoting car sales would seem to go against all of their basic principles. Whatever happened to their protests about cars clogging-up cities and being a danger to pedestrians and cyclists? Self-evidently an EV is no different from a gas guzzler in any of those respects.

-So, why?  :-//  I can only assume money is changing hands under the table, so to speak.
 

Offline Neilm

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3143 on: February 07, 2019, 07:31:41 pm »
On EVs, thing is, a car is a car and why should anyone be subsidized or given tax breaks to buy a car?

I was amazed when some Greens started supporting nuclear power after decades of campaigning against it. At least there is some justification there, in that the Greens (rightly or wrongly) think that CO2 from fossil fuels will destroy the planet.

In the case of EVs though, Greens promoting car sales would seem to go against all of their basic principles. Whatever happened to their protests about cars clogging-up cities and being a danger to pedestrians and cyclists? Self-evidently an EV is no different from a gas guzzler in any of those respects.

-So, why?  :-//  I can only assume money is changing hands under the table, so to speak.
It will reduce the pollution in the city center - better for everyones health.
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Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3144 on: February 07, 2019, 07:43:49 pm »
Just found this comparison on biofuel vs gasoline.  It appears biofuels are over priced and contain less energy meaning you have to buy more to travel the same distance.

https://youtu.be/CfEcZWwdjoo
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3145 on: February 07, 2019, 07:47:55 pm »
Synthetic fuels are the future. Bio, chemi, or whatever. So we can keep the cars we already have, and the Jumbos that can't fly with batteries.

Something that has occurred to me today (*): an EV can't stall, that's a plus.
(*) Guess why.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2019, 08:08:22 pm by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
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Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3146 on: February 07, 2019, 07:55:02 pm »
What are syn fuels?  They have to be far more expensive than the stuff we find for free in the ground.
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3147 on: February 07, 2019, 08:04:04 pm »
Maybe. Or maybe not. IDK. Water plus some PVs make a H2 generator. Sounds expensive?
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Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3148 on: February 07, 2019, 08:14:44 pm »
Maybe. Or maybe not. IDK. Water plus some PVs make a H2 generator. Sounds expensive?

Previous posts we went over all of that.  Electrolysis of water and the use of hydrogen of as a fuel is very expensive and with the technology we have there is no possible way to reduce the cost.  And there was a post from a guy who owns a Toyota hydrogen powered car.  He said it takes him as much time to fuel his car as a Tesla with a supercharger.  He can't wait for the lease to be up so he can buy an EV.

Not sure is you are aware but the hydrogen for hydrogen powered cars is coming from fossil fuels.  It's far less costly to get hydrogen from fossil fuels than from electrolysis with or without solar panels.
 

Offline Vtile

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3149 on: February 07, 2019, 08:29:50 pm »
https://youtu.be/OhnjMdzGusc?t=177

Generally using switched rheostat sections and/or multiple motor windings or voltage stages.  Using multiple tapped parts rather than one big rheostat limits wasted power in the rheostat.

Some of the stuff from that era was actually rather ingenious.  You should read up on it more.  :)
It means the excess power is converted to heat in the resistor. That way you can only control motors up to a certain size using such a technology before that resistor burns - not to mention the significant loss of the stored energy in the control alone and the influence of overload on the vehicle leading to direct damage in motor or control (basically no motor protection existed back then). Does an internal combustion engine shred if you try to start with overload?
I mean Ferdinand Porsche came up with a internal cumbustion engine -> generator -> electrical motor as a way to propell tanks (VK 45.01 P) to circumvent such issues. Submarines and trains used to be driven that way too, until it was more practical to directly control power (SMPS style) or frequency (VFD style). In parallel there used to be diesel-hydraulic of course, all that just to be able to control the huge amount of output power as efficient as possible and keep the overall efficiency of the system high. Nuclear reactors in personal transportation left aside, which used to be the hype of the 60´s science fiction.

A system consisting of a internal combustion engine, mechanical transmission and clutch in that time was IMHO better scalable and provided more torque to replace horse carriages.

Without being a historian or trying to start a discussion about it, i guess WWII-logistics and availability to store and deliver energy played a huge role in what was the preferred type of propulsion later on, i guess that shaped the most part of what came to be. A technology adopted by a military also means that there is suddenly
a) an infrastructure
b) a huge amount of people trained to be e.g. a mechanic, i.e. experienced with it, able to repair and maintain that technology.
c) a form of propulsion that does not require a working electrical grid (at least for europe there was a lot bombed away and needed to be rebuilt)
So such decisions always have ripple effects which enable things to work that wouldn´t if thing had come different.

Not to mention that internal combustion engines can run on a wide variety of fuels, e.g. gasoline, diesel, alcohol (ethanol), wood gas, coal gas, natural gas, liquid pressurized gas (propane/butane), heavy oil, just to name a few. Don´t understand me wrong, the environmental impact of these varies, an ICE simply doesn´t run the majority of operating time in an ideal operation point, so even "clean" fuels might generate issues when burned under less than ideal conditions (the problem here lies in the system´s control of output power and the user as well), that´s where an electrical propulsion system has huge advantages.

Sure, but still a HUGE number of people will get caught out.
And IME huger numbers of people park on the street outside their house so that's not possible.
Just for info: there are quite some startups coming up with equipment converting street lamps to charging outlets. So that might change the picture a bit.

Quote
And FYI, I"m hugely pro electric cars, and want to get one myself, by the practical engineer in me knows it's not going to go mainstream any time soon, it's not even close.
It´s sad that the range extender (aka plug-in hybrid) doesn´t find as much traction as it should. It does combine the best of both and can even solve some issues by having the ICE run in practical ideal conditions all the time.

Just forget the street lamps! Lets play a bit with numbers. This is from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_3 AC charging: 30 miles (48 km) range per hour (240 V outlet, 32 A).

Assuming linear dependency, 48_km/h / 32_A =1.5_km/Ah.

If we assume that the street light is lets say: VIALOX NAV-E SUPER 4Y 400W/240V | High-pressure sodium vapor lamp as the nominal designed bulb in the street lamp we get (assuming power factor 0.9): 400_W / 240_V * 0.9 = 1.85A

So assuming 10h loading time and street lamp for every two car we would get range of:

1.5_km/Ah *1.85_A * 10_h * 1/2 = 13.9_km

...And this with all the power for loading the car so the street would be dark. (Getting LED bulb can leave maybe 100W for loading a car. Assuming 150W led with 20000lm vs. HP sodium vapor with 55000lm).

Doesn't seem too good solution in my eyes.

« Last Edit: February 07, 2019, 09:48:37 pm by Vtile »
 


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