Author Topic: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?  (Read 169722 times)

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Offline george80

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3175 on: February 09, 2019, 01:37:28 am »

These statements are so incorrect I'm not sure if you were serious or trying to be funny and have a lend.



Quote
Give me FINANCIAL  reasons why Tesla will be around in 5 years Time"
Easy.
- Near Monopoly in the BEVs markets where the model 3 is sold, in a booming market.

Have you ANY idea how many new EV's are about to rain down on the market in the next 12 Months let alone 3 years?
Tesla Couldn't make a profit ( except for 3 quarters in 10 years which no where near covers total losses and expenditure) when they had the market to themselves. You really think they are going to be OK when they are going up against the automotive power houses and the likes of the Koreans and Europeans?
If you do, I'd like to ask how many Tesla shares you own.


Quote
- 20-30% profitability
Supposedly on the Model 3 but over all operating costs apart from the last 2 quarters have put them well in the red.  The last quarter was a scrape though, the quarter before that was a lot of Book Cooking, let see how they go over the next 12 Months. If they can be posting profits I might change my mind But I trust NOTHING Tesla or Elon say without evidence of it being sustainable and not a one off.

Quote
- Over half a million customers waiting in the line.

NEVER had half a million customers waiting.  All the backorders for the cars they are producing, IE, NOT the model 3 $35K model which they have touted but NEVER have made and I suspect never WILL make  ( that mean the thing was yet another LIE and bit of Marketing BS)  Have been filled.  Further more Tesla has been having sales and lowering the prices of their Vehicles.  This is not the behaviour of a car co with more orders than it can supply.

There are also many pictures and evidence of thousands of cars sitting in holding yards and evidence these holding yards are getting much larger rather than the cars being there for the short term between delivery and customer pick up.

The only orders they have are for the Model 3 $35K Vaporware Version and the normal lead time productions for custom orders.
No one ATM thinks they have ANY significant back orders.

Quote
- production figures of approx half a million units/Year

The latest production figures and estimates I can find done last month show production at a bit over 320K units per year. That's a big difference from 500K.
Those numbers are an absolute drop in the ocean in vehicle manufacturing terms.

GM sold nearly 300K cars in December 2018 Alone.  Toyota did 220K and Ford did 219 K, also JUST in December.  Tesla did 20K.
Honda, Nissan Subaru, Kia, Hyuandi and a whole bunch of the Europeans wiped the floor with them. Bear in Mind, this is US ONLY so the numbers world wide would multiply that.  Tesla is selling token numbers outside the US ATM.

 Given the new EV offerings By Hyundai, Kia, Merc, Jag and others that are all poised to release EV's this year or have already, You would be a brave man to bet on tesla at this stage although I tend to believe you are probably a lot more misinformed  than anything else.

Add to that Tesla has only 3 Models and 2 of them are close to 10 years old,  their offerings are limited, expensive and plagued with problems like Build quality and servicing and repair is an absolute joke thats even being lambasted hourly on the fan Boi Tesla sties.
The hero worshipping only has so much reach and when the non fairydust believers and and the Fleet market go to buy vehicles,  Tesla is not even going to make the list for these buyers.

For a company that doesn't even advertise, had scarce showrooms, scarcer servicing and repair centres and a CEO/ Leader taken to be a crackpot at best and an outright liar by most  to go up against the manufacturers that are producing well built Vehicles at half the price or less, have a dealership in every populated area with servicing, advertising and brand loyalty and recognition, makes NO financial sense to back in anyone with a realistic Views eyes.
 

Offline george80

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3176 on: February 09, 2019, 02:13:25 am »
European and Japanese car manufacturers who's cars can run on bio-fuel?: Simple: all of them. They have been making them that way for decades already. It is so common that it doesn't even get mentioned.

Errr, NO!
Completely false and untrue.

Very Few Diesels will Run on Biodiesel and nearly all have labels on the fuel filler saying no more than 5-10% Blends.
Bio plays havoc with the DPF  Regeneration (Diesel version of Cat Converter)  and VOIDS warranty if used.

Likewise very few Petrol vehicles will run on straight ethanol or even e 85 mixes but to issues with the computers being programmed to allow for it and other concerns with the fuel system itself being rated to supply the increased fuel flow and having components that are Alcohol resistant.  Again, warnings right on the fuel filler cap NOT to use more than 10% blends.

I know of some flex Fuel ( ethanol) tolerant Vehicles but I know of No Biodiesel fuel compatible although I suspect VW  or merc may have some. 

There is no way anyone could say all euro and jap cars will run on bio and to say they have been making them that way for decades is just blatantly wrong. The reason it does not get mentioned is because it is simply not true and the statement couldn't even be defensibly spin doctored under scrutiny.

The City built on the moon doesn't get mentioned for the same reason, it's not true.
 

Offline george80

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3177 on: February 09, 2019, 02:44:48 am »


Fifteen years ago were any of the big auto manufactures talking about EV?  The apparent success of Tesla has disrupted the automobile and automobile racing industry.   
 

I have seen this argument many times before and I do not understand it ot think it is in any way logical.

Gm in fact had an electric they were testing and produced limited numbers of before tesla came along. They did not continue it because it was not practical at the time and there was no demand.  WTF would you produce a product that is overly expensive, under performing, impractical, has no worthwhile advantage or improvement over the existing tech and at the end of the day you couldn't sell?

The fact Tesla produced a sort of mainstream EV before anyone else is not a sign of inspiration or great innovation or anything else and is an extreme gamble that in fact is almost impossible to see paying off from a financial standpoint.
The other thing is if tesla wanted to build cars, there is no way in hell they could have entered the market without a very special  USP ( Unique Selling Proposition) and electrics are what they Chose.

Yes, they DID upset the market but so what?  Why would the other makers do a Kodak suicide and bring out a product that would cost billions to develop, potentially distract more profitable sales in established markets and take a decade at least to recoup their investment when there was no actual market for it at the time?
To do so in corporate Governance and law could in fact have board and CEO held liable and said to not be acting in the interest of the company.

To imply the auto industry was some how wrong because they didn't bring EV's to the market 15years ago is just greenwashing fanboi
Flag flying.

Sure, Tesla has created an interest and market for EV's but it's not to say they will survive the market they created.
I stand by my prediction they will be gone in 5 years or less.
Without doubt, the deciples of the Tesla cult will blame Big oil and Gubbermints and the man on the moon and the price of Haddock in bolivia and everything else except the real cause.  They won't mention the Botched Millions of automated production lines, the won't mention the endless broken promises and failures to deliver on time. They won't mention the criminal manipulation of the stock market, the lying, pot smoking, hero name calling, The piss poor build quality, the Months wait for simple parts and repairs and ALL the other things that have already happened which will lead to the companies downfall.

Saying no one else was doing electric 15 years ago is like trying to infer tesla is doing something wrong now by not bringing a flying car to the market.  the tech and demand simple isn't there so to try and offer one now would be corporate irresponsibility in the extreme and not innovative or wold changing or anything else. Iwould just be plain stupid to do so untill it became a viable proposition.

We still have some years to wait to see if EV's in fact will be viable for the makers and customers alike.
I predict a big bun rush of people wanting to get in on the new tech and keep up with the Jones's followed by a period of realization the things aren't all they are cracked up to be and their limitations.

People will discover roads are still rough, the traffic jams are still there and Holiday driving and long trips are not near as quick and easy as they used to be.  For those wanting to tow a decent boat or Caravan, going to be a LOOOONG time before any EV can do that better than the current crop of vehicles especially the much maligned Diesels.

 

Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3178 on: February 09, 2019, 02:49:30 am »
European and Japanese car manufacturers who's cars can run on bio-fuel?: Simple: all of them. They have been making them that way for decades already. It is so common that it doesn't even get mentioned.
Errr, NO!
Completely false and untrue.

Very Few Diesels will Run on Biodiesel and nearly all have labels on the fuel filler saying no more than 5-10% Blends.
Bio plays havoc with the DPF  Regeneration (Diesel version of Cat Converter)  and VOIDS warranty if used.

Likewise very few Petrol vehicles will run on straight ethanol or even e 85 mixes but to issues with the computers being programmed to allow for it and other concerns with the fuel system itself being rated to supply the increased fuel flow and having components that are Alcohol resistant.  Again, warnings right on the fuel filler cap NOT to use more than 10% blends.

I know of some flex Fuel ( ethanol) tolerant Vehicles but I know of No Biodiesel fuel compatible although I suspect VW  or merc may have some. 

There is no way anyone could say all euro and jap cars will run on bio and to say they have been making them that way for decades is just blatantly wrong. The reason it does not get mentioned is because it is simply not true and the statement couldn't even be defensibly spin doctored under scrutiny.
Perhaps this is different then where you are but over here you can buy conversion kits to convert & run about any car on 85% ethanol blends. These kits connect between the ECU and the injectors to alter the injection timing.

Diesel will likely be killed anyway in the near future. There just isn't a way to reduce NOx emissions without making the engine extremely expensive. I used to drive diesels but last time I needed a car I bought one on gas. Diesel engines have become way too fragile and expensive to repair.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline george80

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3179 on: February 09, 2019, 06:26:56 am »
Perhaps this is different then where you are but over here you can buy conversion kits to convert & run about any car on 85% ethanol blends. These kits connect between the ECU and the injectors to alter the injection timing.

So in fact the cars can't be run on biofuels without MODIFICATION Which is not how the manufacturers made them at all.
Additionally, it is only the petrol NOT the diesels that can be run on bio fuels.  Being in Europe you should know how many  uropean Vehicles are Diesels let alone the large range of Japanese offerings.

Quote
Diesel will likely be killed anyway in the near future. There just isn't a way to reduce NOx emissions without making the engine extremely expensive. I used to drive diesels but last time I needed a car I bought one on gas. Diesel engines have become way too fragile and expensive to repair.

That's a cop out and butt covering to what you said which was false and still is within the context you said both from a modified and  diesel engine POV.

You seem very keen to push the green POV but your information is typically inaccurate and far fetched. You need to clarify statements if you want to be seen as creditable.  Saying all Jap and eurocars can run biofuels and have had the ability for decades and then coming back and admitting that is only with modification ( no doubt voiding warranties) and the significant number of vehicles that can't run biofuels as you indicated don't matter, is not going to do your credibility any good nor make your agenda any more popular with those to whom you are wishing to push it.

Out of interest, can you tell me your age?
 

Online drussell

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3180 on: February 09, 2019, 11:25:15 am »
Perhaps this is different then where you are but over here you can buy conversion kits to convert & run about any car on 85% ethanol blends. These kits connect between the ECU and the injectors to alter the injection timing.

So in fact the cars can't be run on biofuels without MODIFICATION Which is not how the manufacturers made them at all.

So, you're just conveniently ignoring things like those 60+ million Flex-Fuel vehicles that have come from the factory equipped for E85, etc?

Ok.
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3181 on: February 09, 2019, 11:30:14 am »
Perhaps this is different then where you are but over here you can buy conversion kits to convert & run about any car on 85% ethanol blends. These kits connect between the ECU and the injectors to alter the injection timing.
So in fact the cars can't be run on biofuels without MODIFICATION Which is not how the manufacturers made them at all.
These kits costs around 120 euro and are installed in 5 minutes. That is hardly a modification. But lets not get into a semantic discussion.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline george80

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3182 on: February 10, 2019, 06:18:14 am »

So, you're just conveniently ignoring things like those 60+ million Flex-Fuel vehicles that have come from the factory equipped for E85, etc?

No, I'm addressing the claim made that ALL the vehicles made for decades could run biofuels.

What is the total amount of cars on the road that can run biofuels?  It's nothing like what was made out and while 60M may sound impressive, we both know reality is nothing like that at all.

In any case, what is the point of running a fuel that takes MORE energy, resources and in the grand scheme of things creates MORE emissions?

People seem to treat the world like their home.
Put out the rubbish and it's gone.  It's not. We live on a big blue marbles. The rubbish never goes away and there is only so many resources we can squander. The solution is to use as little as possible, even if that is fossil fuel that in the grand scheme of things as much as the green washed don't like it, THE most efficient, clean way of doing things right now and will be for  some time despite the green whining.

EVERY single other thing you do to get away from FF, especially Oil NEEDS oil.
When someone can grow an alternative crop where no FF or even oil was used, I'll support it whole heatedly but to say growing a biofuel crop is renewable and cleaner and all that crap when it is 100% reliant on oil during it's entire production process is Bullchit and lies spread by the green goobers as usual desperate to push their cult through false pretenses.

You don't get to window dress something by putting down the product it need to exist and then saying this product is better than the one it relies on.
That's where the green goobers become a lot of hypocrites and con men.... although thankfully pretty easy to see right through and shoot down in flames.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3183 on: February 10, 2019, 11:01:20 am »

So, you're just conveniently ignoring things like those 60+ million Flex-Fuel vehicles that have come from the factory equipped for E85, etc?

No, I'm addressing the claim made that ALL the vehicles made for decades could run biofuels.

What is the total amount of cars on the road that can run biofuels?  It's nothing like what was made out and while 60M may sound impressive, we both know reality is nothing like that at all.
All common cars running on gas/petrol can can run on ethanol (except for some more obscure / high performance models but you can find that online). The only thing is that you won't have full power and that is where a conversion kit (or a software update) comes in to change (extend) the injection timing. Also the oil change intervals are shorter when you run on blends with large amounts of ethanol. This is why cars are marked as 'flexifuel' so they can have a different manual printed with different maintenance intervals.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline fourtytwo42

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3184 on: February 10, 2019, 11:12:38 am »
In answer to the OP's question....here at least in the UK never!

This is due to politicians constantly loading the electricity price with IMOP all sorts of stupid subsidies such as sweeteners for Chines companies to build nuclear power plants, huge subsidies for companies building wind turbines, solar farms or biogas plants that ensure that even with disastrous mismanagement they are guaranteed to make a high ROI.

Meanwhile individuals are heavily subsidized to put solar panels on there roofs with the income inflation proofed for 25 years and now just to add insult to injury we are all to receive smart meters that will do nothing for the consumer except further inflate there bills and you guessed it they are subsidized from the electricity cost! Of course they will further increase the utilities profits as they will not have to read meters anymore.

Whilst the economics of our electricity supply remains weighed down by subsidies created by idiotic politicians there is no chance of it ever becoming competitive (and therefore mainstream) with fossil fuels for vehicles so they will remain a toy for the idle rich to whom the cost of fuel is invisible.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3185 on: February 10, 2019, 11:13:11 am »

So, you're just conveniently ignoring things like those 60+ million Flex-Fuel vehicles that have come from the factory equipped for E85, etc?

No, I'm addressing the claim made that ALL the vehicles made for decades could run biofuels.

What is the total amount of cars on the road that can run biofuels?  It's nothing like what was made out and while 60M may sound impressive, we both know reality is nothing like that at all.
All common cars running on gas/petrol can can run on ethanol (except for some more obscure / high performance models but you can find that online). The only thing is that you won't have full power and that is where a conversion kit (or a software update) comes in to change (extend) the injection timing. Also the oil change intervals are shorter when you run on blends with large amounts of ethanol. This is why cars are marked as 'flexifuel' so they can have a different manual printed with different maintenance intervals.

e10 Fuel Problems (It's not clean or green - or a good deal for you.) | Auto Expert John Cadogan


https://youtu.be/d3o_R1ASCA8

 
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Offline fourtytwo42

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3186 on: February 10, 2019, 11:21:04 am »

So, you're just conveniently ignoring things like those 60+ million Flex-Fuel vehicles that have come from the factory equipped for E85, etc?

No, I'm addressing the claim made that ALL the vehicles made for decades could run biofuels.

What is the total amount of cars on the road that can run biofuels?  It's nothing like what was made out and while 60M may sound impressive, we both know reality is nothing like that at all.
All common cars running on gas/petrol can can run on ethanol (except for some more obscure / high performance models but you can find that online). The only thing is that you won't have full power and that is where a conversion kit (or a software update) comes in to change (extend) the injection timing. Also the oil change intervals are shorter when you run on blends with large amounts of ethanol. This is why cars are marked as 'flexifuel' so they can have a different manual printed with different maintenance intervals.

This stuff is a menace, in my own direct experience it has caused me to have to replace fuel lines and carburetor diaphragms in all my garden tools and that is just using the small percentage presently allowed in normal UK petrol. I run a 14 year old car, not that uncommon and it concerns me greatly. Even for newer vehicles it shortens range as more is used producing more combustion products, and where does it come from ? FARMLAND that should be growing food. Another case of a load of cranks bending the ear of ignorant politicians.
 
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Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3187 on: February 10, 2019, 11:45:46 am »

Meanwhile individuals are heavily subsidized to put solar panels on there roofs with the income inflation proofed for 25 years and now just to add insult to injury we are all to receive smart meters that will do nothing for the consumer except further inflate there bills and you guessed it they are subsidized from the electricity cost! Of course they will further increase the utilities profits as they will not have to read meters anymore.

In the United States/California we had smart meters installed 10 years ago.  And aside from the folks wearing tin foil hats saying the radiation from the smart meters were going to kill all of and control our minds and give us cancer, (which hasn't happened so far), smart meters have turned out to be great for consumers.

First off a non-smartmeter consumers 3 watts of electricity.  Do the math on that one and figure out how much electricity collectively we are saving with mullions of customers.

Second - Smartmeters allow us to monitor or electricity usage in 15 increments.  We have time of use billing and electricity costs for the rate plan I am on rages from $0.12 to $0.49 kWhr.  That smartmeter along with Time of Use Billing has allowed me to save between $50 and $75 per month on my electricity bill.  Thank you power companies installing smartmeters.

Third - Smartmeter apps - There are a number of Smartmeter apps which allow me to monitor and control my electricity usage.  This month these apps are allowing me to save another $12-$20 per month and we are still in the winter months.

Fourth - Smartmeters and solar are a good thing here.  With out smartmeters we could only trade kWhrs with the power company.  Meaning when solar/wind/biofuels produced 1 extra kWhr we would loan it to the power company.  When we needed a kWhr the power company would give us that kWhr back.  BUT NOT ANY MORE. - Thank you smartsmart meters.  Now when I have one extra kWhr I can get to sell it to the power company at fair market value which can be as high as $0.87 kWhr for some rate plans.  (The one I am on I can only sell at $0.48.)  Now here's the great part.....  When I need that kWhr back I have to "BUY" it back at fair market rate.  Meaning I can buy that KwHr back from the power company at $0.12.  That's a 400% return.  YIPPIEEE! I get to screw the power company.

Fifth - Smartmeters allow me install less solar panels on my home.  Let's say I use 10,000 kWhr per year.  Without a smart meter I would need a solar system which would produce 10,000 kWhrs to offset 100% of my electricity usage.  Let's say 40 panels would produce that 10,000 kWhrs per year.  With a smartmeter, Time of Use Billing I can get 100% of my electricity from solar with only 20 panels or possibly with only 15 panels.  Remember with a smartmeter I can get to "sell" power to the power company at $0.48 and buy it back later in the day/month/year at $0.12.  So for every kWhr I sell to the power company for $0.48 I can buy 4 back at $0.12.  Can you name any other investment where I can get a 400% return on my investment every day of the year? 

Only possible with smartmeters.

Politics in your country with electricity may vary.  But all I have to say is thank you politicians for allowing this to happen here in California. 

« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 11:47:50 am by DougSpindler »
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3188 on: February 10, 2019, 12:10:46 pm »

So, you're just conveniently ignoring things like those 60+ million Flex-Fuel vehicles that have come from the factory equipped for E85, etc?

No, I'm addressing the claim made that ALL the vehicles made for decades could run biofuels.

What is the total amount of cars on the road that can run biofuels?  It's nothing like what was made out and while 60M may sound impressive, we both know reality is nothing like that at all.
All common cars running on gas/petrol can can run on ethanol (except for some more obscure / high performance models but you can find that online). The only thing is that you won't have full power and that is where a conversion kit (or a software update) comes in to change (extend) the injection timing. Also the oil change intervals are shorter when you run on blends with large amounts of ethanol. This is why cars are marked as 'flexifuel' so they can have a different manual printed with different maintenance intervals.

This stuff is a menace, in my own direct experience it has caused me to have to replace fuel lines and carburetor diaphragms in all my garden tools and that is just using the small percentage presently allowed in normal UK petrol. I run a 14 year old car, not that uncommon and it concerns me greatly. Even for newer vehicles it shortens range as more is used producing more combustion products, and where does it come from ? FARMLAND that should be growing food. Another case of a load of cranks bending the ear of ignorant politicians.

All of this stuff comes down to mater of physics and chemistry.  Using bio-fuels and hydrogen are like modern day perpetual motion machines.  Yes they might appear to "work" but there's a energy and pollution costs which ultimately makes them even worse than fossil fuels.

The folks who think Ethanol is the answer should watch this video.  Ford cars in 1908 could run on Ethanol.
Who want's to buy biofuel when you get a 25% reduction in mileage per tankful?

https://youtu.be/vcNFOcD4r2I

https://youtu.be/ATGSBi1kBl0



 

Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3189 on: February 10, 2019, 12:19:59 pm »
This stuff is a menace, in my own direct experience it has caused me to have to replace fuel lines and carburetor diaphragms in all my garden tools and that is just using the small percentage presently allowed in normal UK petrol. I run a 14 year old car, not that uncommon and it concerns me greatly.
Your car is fine. In France E10 has been available for decades so cars need to be able to deal with ethanol in the fuel. There are several websites where you can check compatibility. Actually ethanol helps to keep the inside of your engine clean. I've got over 100.000 km of running on E10 and never noticed any degradation on any car. Again: E10 has been on the market for decades in some countries.

For garden tools (and generators) you need to buy an additive which keeps the fuel from aging. This is pretty common knowledge.
 
@Doug: no, you won't get a 25% reduction in milage. More like 10% to 15%. The nice thing about ethanol is that it is a high octane fuel so your engine will run more efficient. This higher efficiency counteracts the lower energy content of ethanol.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 12:22:25 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3190 on: February 10, 2019, 12:22:06 pm »
This stuff is a menace, in my own direct experience it has caused me to have to replace fuel lines and carburetor diaphragms in all my garden tools and that is just using the small percentage presently allowed in normal UK petrol. I run a 14 year old car, not that uncommon and it concerns me greatly.
Your car is fine. In France E10 has been available for decades so cars need to be able to deal with ethanol in the fuel. There are several websites where you can check compatibility. Actually ethanol helps to keep the inside of your engine clean. I've got over 100.000 km of running on E10 and never noticed any degradation on any car. Again: E10 has been on the market for decades in some countries.

For garden tools (and generators) you need to buy an additive which keeps the fuel from aging. This is pretty common knowledge.

Why would you buy a fuel that gives you a 25% reduction in mileage?

 

Offline coppice

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3191 on: February 10, 2019, 12:28:32 pm »
This stuff is a menace, in my own direct experience it has caused me to have to replace fuel lines and carburetor diaphragms in all my garden tools and that is just using the small percentage presently allowed in normal UK petrol. I run a 14 year old car, not that uncommon and it concerns me greatly.
Your car is fine. In France E10 has been available for decades so cars need to be able to deal with ethanol in the fuel. There are several websites where you can check compatibility. Actually ethanol helps to keep the inside of your engine clean. I've got over 100.000 km of running on E10 and never noticed any degradation on any car. Again: E10 has been on the market for decades in some countries.

For garden tools (and generators) you need to buy an additive which keeps the fuel from aging. This is pretty common knowledge.

Why would you buy a fuel that gives you a 25% reduction in mileage?
For a 30% lower price?
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3192 on: February 10, 2019, 12:37:29 pm »
This stuff is a menace, in my own direct experience it has caused me to have to replace fuel lines and carburetor diaphragms in all my garden tools and that is just using the small percentage presently allowed in normal UK petrol. I run a 14 year old car, not that uncommon and it concerns me greatly.
Your car is fine. In France E10 has been available for decades so cars need to be able to deal with ethanol in the fuel. There are several websites where you can check compatibility. Actually ethanol helps to keep the inside of your engine clean. I've got over 100.000 km of running on E10 and never noticed any degradation on any car. Again: E10 has been on the market for decades in some countries.

For garden tools (and generators) you need to buy an additive which keeps the fuel from aging. This is pretty common knowledge.

Why would you buy a fuel that gives you a 25% reduction in mileage?
For a 30% lower price?

So for you it's all about money and not the environment.  Fair enough.

But auto experts who have independently tested E10 have all found E10 fuel isn't cheaper or greener.  (Except for the ones who have been paid to say otherwise.)





 

Online nctnico

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3193 on: February 10, 2019, 12:43:51 pm »
There is more FUD about E10 and ethanol on internet than on any other subject. For many people a car is their most expensive and holy possession. In Dutch a car is often referred to as a 'holy cow'. Seperating fact from fiction is hard when it comes to spiritual things.  :popcorn:
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 12:50:10 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3194 on: February 10, 2019, 12:52:18 pm »
There is more FUD about E10 and ethanol on internet than on any other subject. For many people a car is their most expensive and holy possession. In Dutch a car is often referred to as a 'holy cow'. Seperation fact from fiction is hard when it comes to spiritual stuff.  :popcorn:

Cars cost more than houses?  Incredible.

I think there's more FUD on the Internet about perpetual motion machines.  Yes, there is a lot of FUD about E10 which is why one needs to look for independent research.  The reason there's so much FUD is to get cause FUD and cause confusion and sucker people into buying it.

Have you found any independent research which has found E10 to be better?  I sure haven't.  Trusted sources say it's bad for the pocket book, bad for older cars, bad for the environment and good for politicians.

 

 

Offline coppice

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3195 on: February 10, 2019, 12:54:32 pm »
This stuff is a menace, in my own direct experience it has caused me to have to replace fuel lines and carburetor diaphragms in all my garden tools and that is just using the small percentage presently allowed in normal UK petrol. I run a 14 year old car, not that uncommon and it concerns me greatly.
Your car is fine. In France E10 has been available for decades so cars need to be able to deal with ethanol in the fuel. There are several websites where you can check compatibility. Actually ethanol helps to keep the inside of your engine clean. I've got over 100.000 km of running on E10 and never noticed any degradation on any car. Again: E10 has been on the market for decades in some countries.

For garden tools (and generators) you need to buy an additive which keeps the fuel from aging. This is pretty common knowledge.

Why would you buy a fuel that gives you a 25% reduction in mileage?
For a 30% lower price?

So for you it's all about money and not the environment.  Fair enough.

But auto experts who have independently tested E10 have all found E10 fuel isn't cheaper or greener.  (Except for the ones who have been paid to say otherwise.)
Why do you equate a comment with a viewpoint? Have you no grasp of how discussion works? You asked why a low performing fuel would be attractive, and I responded with the obvious point that its overall cost effectiveness that counts for most purposes.

E10 is currently a feel good fuel. Its important that a more realistic view prevails, but its hard to see how that can be achieved.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3196 on: February 10, 2019, 12:59:13 pm »
This stuff is a menace, in my own direct experience it has caused me to have to replace fuel lines and carburetor diaphragms in all my garden tools and that is just using the small percentage presently allowed in normal UK petrol. I run a 14 year old car, not that uncommon and it concerns me greatly.
Your car is fine. In France E10 has been available for decades so cars need to be able to deal with ethanol in the fuel. There are several websites where you can check compatibility. Actually ethanol helps to keep the inside of your engine clean. I've got over 100.000 km of running on E10 and never noticed any degradation on any car. Again: E10 has been on the market for decades in some countries.

For garden tools (and generators) you need to buy an additive which keeps the fuel from aging. This is pretty common knowledge.

Why would you buy a fuel that gives you a 25% reduction in mileage?
For a 30% lower price?

So for you it's all about money and not the environment.  Fair enough.

But auto experts who have independently tested E10 have all found E10 fuel isn't cheaper or greener.  (Except for the ones who have been paid to say otherwise.)
Why do you equate a comment with a viewpoint? Have you no grasp of how discussion works? You asked why a low performing fuel would be attractive, and I responded with the obvious point that its overall cost effectiveness that counts for most purposes.

E10 is currently a feel good fuel. Its important that a more realistic view prevails, but its hard to see how that can be achieved.

How is E10 a "feel good" fuel?  It's bad for the environment, good for politicians and results in a 25% reduction in mileage.  Means you are waiting time and gas looking for a fueling station a lot more often.  You might as well buy an EV car.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3197 on: February 10, 2019, 01:21:02 pm »
E10 is currently a feel good fuel. Its important that a more realistic view prevails, but its hard to see how that can be achieved.
How is E10 a "feel good" fuel?  It's bad for the environment, good for politicians and results in a 25% reduction in mileage.  Means you are waiting time and gas looking for a fueling station a lot more often.  You might as well buy an EV car.
It feels good to a poorly informed public. Its branded as a green product, and that's all you need to make lots of people feel good about using it.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3198 on: February 10, 2019, 01:28:14 pm »
E10 is currently a feel good fuel. Its important that a more realistic view prevails, but its hard to see how that can be achieved.
How is E10 a "feel good" fuel?  It's bad for the environment, good for politicians and results in a 25% reduction in mileage.  Means you are waiting time and gas looking for a fueling station a lot more often.  You might as well buy an EV car.
It feels good to a poorly informed public. Its branded as a green product, and that's all you need to make lots of people feel good about using it.

Got it.  Kind of like religion?  Don't pay any attention to the evil science which get at the truth and blindly believe the companies propaganda and the politicians on the pulpits.  And while we are at it let's call anyone who is not a true believer a heretic and burn them publicly on the Internet.   



 

Offline george80

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Re: When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream?
« Reply #3199 on: February 10, 2019, 02:40:20 pm »

I know I asked before but exactly how old are you?
My reason for asking is that I have wasted time arguing with 15 yo's before that thought they knew everything  when the complete an opposite was true and spouted endless garbage that just wasn't correct in any way.   Not wishing to go down that road again but anyway....


Your car is fine. In France E10 has been available for decades so cars need to be able to deal with ethanol in the fuel.

E10 has been available in Oz for decades as well and precisely as said it IS a menace and that's a far more polite word than I'd use for the crap.

I work part time in a Car wrecking yard.  We can look at a number of things on an engine and walk off shaking our heads saying " yeah, it's been run on that cheap shit all right. "  It screws with Cat convertors, it kills O2 sensors.  Car comes in with either of those problems and you know the owner has been running E10 and the question always confirms it.  Not all bad, Bought my daughter a 3 Yo car with 40K Km on it a few years ago for next to nothing.  Check engine light was on.
mechanics had changed plugs and frigged around with the 02 sensors which meant the cat convertor was shot.  OVER $5000 here for a new one. Conveniently had 3 cars in the yard  same model with good cats so put one on and runs like a watch.  Of course she knows not to put Ecrap near it and hasn't had a problem in the 3 years she has had it.

Even on 5 yo cars, there are problems with sensors and fuel pumps and other things but of course you deal with this hands on but the green washed deny it and claim it must be a local problem or something.  IT's Not! know the world over.

I wouldn't have E10 in anything I own.
Years ago Figured out how much less mileage a vehicle got  using it. Yes, it's a few cents cheaper here, only a few not 10 or 20c per litre but on a good day maybe 5C/L cheaper but if you work out the reduction in range, it is in fact a heap more EXPENSIVE. In actual fact the cheapest fuel is the most expensive 98 or what ever because you go further and although you pay more, you pay more less often and over all long term pay less. been heaps of tests done on this and they all come to the same conclusion.

The other thing as mentioned is it affect fuel lines, diaphragms, carbs etc. even still on new gear supposedly rated for it.
Go to a small engine/ garden equipment shop and ask them about Ecrap and see what they say.

The other thing with this garbage is the fact it is extremely hygroscopic. 
It sucks water out the air better than a dehumidifier. Unfortunately all that water ends up in your tank or carb and plays havoc from there.  On the newer gear with the greenwashed idea of non adjustable carbs, it also leans the mixture making for hard starting and poor running especially when the engine gets a bit worn.

It's not like I am unfamiliar with alcohol based fuels. I ran a race bike on Methanol so I know what it is like. You would always drain the tank and carb and replaced fuel line and carb parts often. You changed the oil every run because even if the thing is running lean, it still get in the oil and pulls water in too.
You can run much higher compression, you can run real rich mixtures to keep detonation down and pistons from melting and get great power out of a race engine,  BUT..... those are all things that you do not need or want in a road car.  You don't want to drain the tank and change the oil every time the thing is going to be parked for more than a few days. 

The only reason E10 is not a bigger problem with condensation in cars is they have sealed fuel systems so the air can get in but not out so therefor the amount of air is limited.

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Actually ethanol helps to keep the inside of your engine clean.

You read this right, straight off the flag waving websites. Must have because once again, completely wrong.
 Tell me though, how many engines have you personally, yourself torn down that have been running E10 and seen the combustion chambers or any other part of the engine internals and what did they look like?

The ones I have torn down have carbon in them like any other but still have the tell tale white exhaust valves from the Ecrap meaning they were running too hot even though it may be a car less than 10 Yo and supposedly able to run the ethacrap. Other sensors can be affected as well because the E rubbish gets into the oil and through the breathers and deterioates sensor performance and function.

Not saying every car that runs a tank full of the stuff will fall over but there is NO denying those vehicles run long term on the stuff DO have more predictable problems than those run on the non contaminated fuels.


 
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I've got over 100.000 km of running on E10 and never noticed any degradation on any car.

Ahh huh.  But you wouldn't notice any degradation in that time especially if parts and components were logically replaced so that is a meaningless and diversionary statement. I notice you say "any car" so the 100K km has not been on one car so we don't know if you got one and it already had problems which you wouldn't be aware of or if you got rid of the thing before  problems became apparent.
With respect, it is very clear to me that vehicle mechanics is not something you are particularly familiar with to know what would cause a problem and in honesty, I would suggest that even if you were told of a problem caused by ethanol contaminated fuel, you wouldn't admit it here and probably not even to yourself if it went against your green proclivities.


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Again: E10 has been on the market for decades in some countries.

Yes. And it's been known to cause problems Right off the bat as long as it has been available those decades. MOST equipment you buy here now specifically has labels and stickers on it NOT to run it on  ethanol laced fuels including several bits of garden gear I bought new recently. I have also seen new mowers, generators and small engines on industrial equipment with the same warnings.  Vehicles have warnings NOT to use Biodiesel as well.

E10- E whatever is a very poor fuel. No ifs or butts or spin doctoring about it.  It's not about the vehicles, it's about the inherent properties of the fuel itself.

I don't spose you know ethanol was extensively used as fuel during WWII.  It was made especially for aircraft fuel amoung other things. There were problems with it then but in wartime they put up with a lot.  Why do you suppose when they were geard up to make the suff in such Qty they didn't keep going with it if it was cheaper, better fuel that burnt cleaner and had better performance?

Clearly, because it was not a superior fuel and was problematic and Petro fuel was in fact a far better alternative.  Simple as that.

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For garden tools (and generators) you need to buy an additive which keeps the fuel from aging. This is pretty common knowledge.

I "Need to buy an additive"? Why?Isn't it a btter fuel a you told us?  Or maybe I need additives because the stuff is shit that will cause problems without it?  Well that is in fact the case isn't it.
I'm curious though, if it's common knowledge you need additives, why aren't they put in at the refinery?

Instead of Buying additives ( which are universally Naptha BTW)  I just buy quality, no hassel fuels that DO NOT  have ethanol in them.  Additives are expensive and require more stuffing round to make the fuel decent. I have no interests in paying more after I bought supposedly cheaper fuel which makes it way more expensive.

Like anything else, I avoid known junk and rubbish and pay a little more for what I know is quality and less trouble and am happy.
 
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@Doug: no, you won't get a 25% reduction in milage. More like 10% to 15%.

No, I worked out years ago the Wifes car got about 21% poorer economy using Ecrap than using the regular non contaminated fuel.  But she had already worked out she was getting about  80 odd Km less per tank on the Ecrap.

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The nice thing about ethanol is that it is a high octane fuel so your engine will run more efficient.

Errr, no it won't.  Wrong again.
Modern engines are all relatively low compression so unless you have a sports model which inevitably FORBID you to run Ecrap, the higher octane is wasted.
Do you even fully understand what octane actually is? Clearly not.

 It is resistance to compression ignition basically, How hard you can squeeze it and how hot you can make a mixture of it before it goes bang on it's own.
It is NOT  a measure of energy content.  You do not need much octane in an engine that's running  8-10:1 Compression with knock sensors that feed a signal back to the computer than can retard timing anyway.

Octane and efficiency is like trying to relate  Engine temperature and windscreen wiper speed.  They are not related in any way shape or form.


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This higher efficiency counteracts the lower energy content of ethanol.

Mate, do you make this stuff up as you go or do you just parrot garbage you read on some forums or websites?

There is no higher efficiency to start with and if there was, it would be in the engine design NOT the fuel.
The deciding factor you are oblivious to in the fuel is not octane, it is calorific value.
That is the amount of energy in a given amount of a fuel either by weight as is the proper measurement or by volume.

While ethanol does have a higher octane, it has a LOWER calorific value . This in a normal every day vehicle equates to a given amount of fuel having less total energy and therefore less ability to do work.  That is why you get less mileage.... as you admitted to then contradicted yourself.
It is exactly the difference between a chord of hardwood and a chord of softwood.  Same volume, one burns a lot longer and hotter than the other and there for you can heat, cook and boil more with the hard wood than the same volume of softwood. 

 If the fuel was more "efficient" as you put it, you would get BETTER not worse economy.  You admit that economy is poorer than  with straight fuel and this might be the most accurate and truthful  thing I have seen you suggest so far.
This is why the non contaminated fuels, some of which have LOWER octane ratings than Ethacrap get better mileage and when the most expensive fuels which have the most energy have the best economy.

Biodiesel is Exactly the same compared to Diesel. Less energy, about 10-12% depending on the actual feedstock of the oil the Bio was transesterfied  from and a bit to do with the actual process used.  This on a diesel., particularly a non turbo engine that can frequently be driven flat out, can be very noticeable.
That in addition to a much slower speed of combustion which equates to earlier timing needed, can make bio and veg give a Diesel noticeably less Pep and economy.

On My truck I have the Pump wound up and If I need to go hard as in towing or want passing power on the highway, I add 5% real Petrol which compensates for the slower combustion speed of the oil and brings the timing back in line with that needed for regular Diesel.

You really ought to fact check things before posting as deliberate or not, your many flawed statements are not winning anyone over to your side of the discussion or greening them over.

Again, what is your age please?
 
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