If you live in the US- There is now an initiative push for a Right To Repair-

[meeder]

Toyota is handling it correctly with their cars, you can download repair manuals from their website for a small fee.

For electronics I would really like it if manufacturers would release the service manuals once they remove it from production.
I asked NAD Electronics repeatedly for the service manual for my NAD 118 Digital pre-amplifier but they wont release it and they can't repair it when the unit is defective.

[Corporate666]

Right to repair is a horrible idea - thankfully it will go nowhere in the USA.

As Zapta said, it's just another case of "I want it and I want the government to force someone else to give it to me".  What percentage of people give a shit about repairing products?  I'll wager the vast (VAST!) majority don't.  Most electronics don't break these days, and when they do, they are so cheap as to be disposable.  For those that aren't disposable, buy an extended warranty or buy it with your Amex card for double the warranty.

There is rarely a week that goes by without two interesting (and inextricably linked) occurences on this forum

-Someone posts about how they got somehow stiffed in buying something internationally.  Whether it's having to pay to return a product, or getting hit with taxes/VAT/duty/UPS-brokerage-fees, being denied warranty coverage or whatever.

-People talk about how the X law in Y country prevents the greedy capitalists from behaving in such a manner as to allow the occurrences listed above to happen.

The irony is how many people don't seem to recognize the link.  When you add laws like these, shit gets more expensive.  I ship around the world every day and it's hilarious how closely the taxes and "government overbearance" track the lengths people go to in order to save a buck.  Pity so few people recognize that there is no free lunch.  I guess it's human nature to want something for nothing, and it's the nature of politicians to promise they will deliver it to the ignorant masses who will vote them in. 

Then everyone loses their minds when everything starts to get so expensive. 

I'm quite happy being able to buy cheap electronics that rarely break and I have zero interest in forcing Nokia to keep documentation on my old E-whatever-it-was phone that I stopped caring about 4 years ago.

[JoeO]

C666 - There is more to it than what you mention.

You will not be able to repair John Deer tractors.  Like software, they are contending that you only lease the tractor software, you don't own it.

http://www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-john-deere/

[rx8pilot]

The consumer will shake that bad idea....not a law.

[miguelvp]

Then John Deere should not sell the equipment just lease it like GM did with the EV1 Electric Vehicle.

There are no need for new laws to force a lease instead of a purchase but I guess they want it both ways but I doubt that will hold.

Do they want to lease their products? so be it, but don't sell it and call it a lease!

[c4757p]

The consumer will shake that bad idea....not a law.

Not when the whole industry starts doing it and people who need tractors have no option.

[miguelvp]

The consumer will shake that bad idea....not a law.

Not when the whole industry starts doing it and people who need tractors have no option.

Maybe Lamborghini should start to import theirs to the US

https://www.google.com/search?q=lamborghini+tractor+2015&tbm=isch

So what do you drive, the farmer asks the big shot city guy.

A Lambo, what about you?

Same thing says the farmer.

[mtdoc]

There are 2 different issues here as I see it:

1) A movement to pass laws requiring manufacturers to make available for purchase the same service manuals and parts available to established service outlets.

2) Manufacturers trying to make it illegal for a consumer to repair or modify a product that they have purchased.

I can see the arguments for both sides of #1 - though I don't see how this would mean added cost to the manufacturer (or end product)- if they are allowed to charge their costs to provide that information (which is what the proposed law in the OP stipulates).

As for issue # 2,  I can see no reasonable argument why I should not have the right to repair or modify a product I own.  If not then I don't own it, I am leasing it - as miguelvp rightly points out - and this should be explicitly stated. 

[rx8pilot]

As a manufacturer (small time), I don't want customers repairing and/or modifying a product and holding my business liable for the potentially bad result. It can be a very slow and expensive path to prove who was wrong in that case. That can be a huge cost for manufacturers in legal actions.

What about warranty? If mods create unintended system damage, who fixes it? Maybe the hydraulic pump fails after someone 'fixes' the software when the pressure is low due to a clogged inlet.

There are arguments on both sides for sure but I don't think legally forcing a manufacture to offer all information needed to repair or mod is the right answer. It's asking for a slowdown in technical development. If you want to fix your tractor, buy an old one, just like modern cars. No one really fixes a car anymore, they just replace major sub-systems.

[mtdoc]

What about warranty? If mods create unintended system damage, who fixes it? Maybe the hydraulic pump fails after someone 'fixes' the software when the pressure is low due to a clogged inlet.

That should void the warranty for sure. Obviously proving that the owner tried to do a repair or modification is not always easy.  But that is already the case now.  I would think proof of purchase of a service manual or replacement part from the manufacturer would provide one way of proving that - so maybe helpful in that regard?

Perhaps every John Deere tractor or GM car should ship with giant "Warranty Void if Removed" seals over the hood and dashboard access points...

As far as issue #2 from above, the warranty concern is a non-starter. You would need to prove someone tried to fix or mod equipment in order to prove they broke the law - why not just void their warranty instead of making it a crime?

The real value in being allowed to repair your own product comes after the warranty has expired in any case.

[JuKu]

Perhaps every John Deere tractor or GM car should ship with giant "Warranty Void if Removed" seals over the hood and dashboard access points...

A solution too easy for the lawyers, perhaps?

There is (was?) a Volvo concept car, that the owner did not get the keys to the hood during the warranty period. I would be fine with that. (The washer fill was outside the hood, as it should be.)

[wagon]

I repair stuff 5 days a week.  Most of it I don't have diagrams, access to factory parts or support.  If I'm lucky, I get a connector pinout.  Most faults are bad connectors, solder joints and power supply troubles.  Lately I've had a run of power-on reset circuits for microprocessors... just lucky data for most micros is readily available.  Having a good idea of how things work helps when you need to modify it to use 'available' parts when the 'proper' parts are unavailable for whatever reason.  Knowing 'what you can get away with' helps too.

[gildasd]

95% of people will never open the hood of a car (even to change fluids).
So in theory you only piss off 5% of you costumers if you make stuff non repairable, a risk worth taking?

Well, the risk of pissing off that 5% of potential best advocates can turn on you...
Those 5% are the kind of people a large part of the 95% depends on to make buying choices.

[vk6zgo]

I repair stuff 5 days a week.  Most of it I don't have diagrams, access to factory parts or support.  If I'm lucky, I get a connector pinout.  Most faults are bad connectors, solder joints and power supply troubles.  Lately I've had a run of power-on reset circuits for microprocessors... just lucky data for most micros is readily available.  Having a good idea of how things work helps when you need to modify it to use 'available' parts when the 'proper' parts are unavailable for whatever reason.  Knowing 'what you can get away with' helps too.

Exactly! when you live on the other side of the Earth to the manufacturer,& your customers,or bosses want the thing working NOW!!!!!,warranties are pretty much a joke.

Intellectual Property?--In many cases the circuitry used in the stuff you are repairing is all Public Domain,anyway,or belongs to National Semiconductor (or their Heirs & successors according to law),which amounts to the same thing,as they freely publish the details of their devices.

[LabSpokane]

besides , i don't know of any product sold that is forbidden to repair , so why do we need a law ?

The core issue is the DMCA, which is a law today, and the $1M fine and up to 10 year federal prison time for hacking into a microcontroller that is protected by a password and/or encryption. That is what John Deere wants to impose on those who bypass their service centers.

This goes well beyond right to repair. A lot of equipment must be modified in order for it to be suitable for a particular application. Hillside leveler combines are a big one around these parts. One can't buy them from the factory or at least one couldn't for many decades.

No one should go to prison, particularly hard time in excess of what people get for cold-blooded murder for just making something suitable for their work. Corporations have gone much too far with this and need to get reigned in.

[Corporate666]

C666 - There is more to it than what you mention.

You will not be able to repair John Deer tractors.  Like software, they are contending that you only lease the tractor software, you don't own it.

http://www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-john-deere/

I realize that aspect of it and that part I don't agree with - but I think there will (and should) be a different approach to working that out.  That falls more under legality and enforcability of EULAs and such. 

[Corporate666]

No one should go to prison, particularly hard time in excess of what people get for cold-blooded murder for just making something suitable for their work. Corporations have gone much too far with this and need to get reigned in.

"Corporations need to get reigned in" just means costs are going to go up.  The problem with lawmakers and laws in general is that we have a bunch of legislators with nothing to do all day except legislate, so they are constantly coming up with new laws. 

We don't need more laws to reign in corporations, we need to get rid of some of the existing laws that are anti-consumer.  In one way, software companies want software to be treated like a tangible product (i.e. it can be 'stolen' and they want to enjoy a ridiculously high loss figure for when that happens), but on the other hand they want software treated differently than hardware.  It's unconscionable that I would buy a car and it would be illegal for me to put different wheels/tires on it if I so chose.  But that's what software companies want.

It's similar to music copyrights.  Someone can develop a world-changing piece of technology at great expense and have it protected only for 17-20 years at more great expense.  But copyrights last two lifetimes.... what?

[johansen]

It's unconscionable that I would buy a car and it would be illegal for me to put different wheels/tires on it if I so chose.

But it is illegal in all 50 states..
Most laws are arbitrary.

Why is a lifted vehicle illegal.. if you dropped the bumper to the maximum 12? inches, but lifted the frame 24, who is the judge that says, no, that bumper isn't structurally strong enough? are you going to cough up >100 grand to pay a mechanical engineer to say yes it is strong enough (and the crash tests to prove it), and then thousands more in legal fees to reverse the ruling?

in my opinion, software should have a 10 year copyright, if that much.
patents should expire in 5 years tops.

it would be cool to require companies to provide documentation, but that would actually cost them a crap tone if they have to make available everything sold in the last 20 years. so you'd have to do this for future products only. but that wouldn't be fair would it? lol

it would also bring to market an even bigger tsunomi of reverse engineered and poorly built crap.

[rx8pilot]

Aftermarket wheels are illegal? That is a billion $ industry, right?

[johansen]

Aftermarket wheels are illegal? That is a billion $ industry, right?

you or your judge's arbitrary definition of what constitutes a legal modification is not the point i was making

[johansen]

Corporations have gone much too far with this and need to get reigned in.

eh, the root problem here is lawless laws are enforced, and some of the lawless do not go to jail.

[wagon]

I repair stuff 5 days a week.  Most of it I don't have diagrams, access to factory parts or support.  If I'm lucky, I get a connector pinout.  Most faults are bad connectors, solder joints and power supply troubles.  Lately I've had a run of power-on reset circuits for microprocessors... just lucky data for most micros is readily available.  Having a good idea of how things work helps when you need to modify it to use 'available' parts when the 'proper' parts are unavailable for whatever reason.  Knowing 'what you can get away with' helps too.

Exactly! when you live on the other side of the Earth to the manufacturer,& your customers,or bosses want the thing working NOW!!!!!,warranties are pretty much a joke.

Intellectual Property?--In many cases the circuitry used in the stuff you are repairing is all Public Domain,anyway,or belongs to National Semiconductor (or their Heirs & successors according to law),which amounts to the same thing,as they freely publish the details of their devices.

Yep.  I don't always need to know how the rest works, just the bit that's broken.

[LabSpokane]

No one should go to prison, particularly hard time in excess of what people get for cold-blooded murder for just making something suitable for their work. Corporations have gone much too far with this and need to get reigned in.

"Corporations need to get reigned in" just means costs are going to go up.  The problem with lawmakers and laws in general is that we have a bunch of legislators with nothing to do all day except legislate, so they are constantly coming up with new laws. 

We don't need more laws to reign in corporations, we need to get rid of some of the existing laws that are anti-consumer.

I would be all too happy for the DMCA to get trashed, but since that won't happen, Right to Repair is it. 

And since we got the DMCA thanks to heavy lobbying by large corporations, I feel justified in saying they need to be reigned in.  They took what should have been a civil matter and lobbied it into a *Federal crime* with *hard* time in prison. 

Meanwhile, corporations get to do damned near anything they want with the worst-case scenario being they write a check to the government. 

The little guy goes to jail.  The big guy gets a fine that his shareholders pay for him.  If was ever a textbook example of the imbalance between a citizen and corporation, the DMCA is it.