Author Topic: BGA replacement - what equipment and tools do I need for reliable results?  (Read 11427 times)

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Offline DaJMasta

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when he started to talk i subscribed to his channel... when he started to look for capacitors costing half a cent on donor boards.. i unsubscribed ;)
ability to work with cheap tools is essential for small business... but cheaping out on capacitors ? many places sell cut tape smd parts... you can get 1000 capacitors for $5 or even less, that's 0.5 cents a pop.... you buy 1K of each common value (100n, 1u, 2u2, 4u7, 10u) and you have a supply that will last you "forever" in a repair shop.

This isn't really on topic, but you avoid a lot of effort and potential pitfalls by using donor boards, and you're already taking the big chips off, right.... so what's wrong with using the residual parts?

Lets say, for example, that you maintain a stock of caps and resistors and other passives (and you probably should), but you use those as replacements for the stuff on all repaired boards.  Well some part manufacturers will be different, some capacitor dielectrics will be different, some resistor tolerances will be different, etc.  In a lot of devices any old replacement will do, but every so often you're going to run into a high frequency circuit that really needs low ESL caps to keep signal integrity, or you're going to run into a resistor divider that is out of spec with the 5% tolerance you replaced it with, or what have you.  Most of the time it will be fine, but that's definitely not a guarantee, whereas if you're using the specified part that was put in by someone who knew what they were doing, the donor replacement will work... plus you save the time of sorting through the schematic to find the value and then sorting through your collection to get the right value.

Reusing parts isn't cheaping out because so long as they're in good shape, you are using the parts originally specified in the design by the OEM.
 

Offline rob77

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when he started to talk i subscribed to his channel... when he started to look for capacitors costing half a cent on donor boards.. i unsubscribed ;)
ability to work with cheap tools is essential for small business... but cheaping out on capacitors ? many places sell cut tape smd parts... you can get 1000 capacitors for $5 or even less, that's 0.5 cents a pop.... you buy 1K of each common value (100n, 1u, 2u2, 4u7, 10u) and you have a supply that will last you "forever" in a repair shop.

This isn't really on topic, but you avoid a lot of effort and potential pitfalls by using donor boards, and you're already taking the big chips off, right.... so what's wrong with using the residual parts?

Lets say, for example, that you maintain a stock of caps and resistors and other passives (and you probably should), but you use those as replacements for the stuff on all repaired boards.  Well some part manufacturers will be different, some capacitor dielectrics will be different, some resistor tolerances will be different, etc.  In a lot of devices any old replacement will do, but every so often you're going to run into a high frequency circuit that really needs low ESL caps to keep signal integrity, or you're going to run into a resistor divider that is out of spec with the 5% tolerance you replaced it with, or what have you.  Most of the time it will be fine, but that's definitely not a guarantee, whereas if you're using the specified part that was put in by someone who knew what they were doing, the donor replacement will work... plus you save the time of sorting through the schematic to find the value and then sorting through your collection to get the right value.

Reusing parts isn't cheaping out because so long as they're in good shape, you are using the parts originally specified in the design by the OEM.

agree it's off topic, but let me disagree with what you say..

1. schematic - you already reading it and watching the boardview otherwise you wouldn't be able to repair a board, so you know the value
2. decoupling caps are always X5R or X7R because other dielectric can't provide such higfh capacity in 0603,0402 or 0201 package.
3. on digital boards all the resistors are either pull-up or pull-down or impedance match... neither of those is critical in terms of tolerance... 1% ones are more than good enough.
4. if the cap died on impact then what guarantee you have the one on donor board (which most probably suffered some impact as well - otherwise it wouldn't be a donor board) will not short out in few days ?
5. using chips from donor boards is OK because in most of the cases that's the one and ONLY option available.
6. if you spend 3 minutes salvaging a capacitor from a donor board... then what's the cost ? if you charge $100/hour then that cap costs you $5 !  i can get the cap from the tape in 10 seconds.. that's 28 cents for your time and half a cent for the cap, so let's say 30 cents in total.

so cheap tools ? definitely YES ! reuse chips from donor boards ? YES because there is no other way ! salvage dirt cheap passives from donor boards ? HELL NO !! 
 

Offline Armadillo

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when he started to talk i subscribed to his channel... when he started to look for capacitors costing half a cent on donor boards.. i unsubscribed ;)

Now, what did Louis Rossmann said in one of his video, Quote "Don't underestimate donor boards". UnQuote;
It's part of their trade not limiting to Jason.
 

Offline rob77

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when he started to talk i subscribed to his channel... when he started to look for capacitors costing half a cent on donor boards.. i unsubscribed ;)

Now, what did Louis Rossmann said in one of his video, Quote "Don't underestimate donor boards". UnQuote;
It's part of their trade not limiting to Jason.

see #6 in my post above...
 

Offline Armadillo

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when he started to talk i subscribed to his channel... when he started to look for capacitors costing half a cent on donor boards.. i unsubscribed ;)

Now, what did Louis Rossmann said in one of his video, Quote "Don't underestimate donor boards". UnQuote;
It's part of their trade not limiting to Jason.

see #6 in my post above...

made sense!  :-+
 

Offline Rasz

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You can build decent on the budget IR soldering station yourself with a bit of research.


Quite a bunch of self-contradictory bullshits there;

is that language barrier?

If you profess that you can build yourself the budget IR soldering station, so why don't you build the soldering iron yourself instead of advising people to use the T12 tips and genuine soldering iron FX-951?

you mean like this:
Quote
counterfeit FX-951 $100, or even $20 DIY controller https://www.banggood.com/Digital-Soldering-Iron-Station-Temperature-Controller-Kits-for-HAKKO-T12-Handle-p-993248.html

I personally use one of those $10 controllers with T12 tips, I had 951 for a while, but the only difference I noticed was very bad UI of the genuine tool.

Obviously there are heavy engineering involved even in that simple looking soldering iron "TIP" itself.
Conversely speaking, You can in fact waste your whole entire life stepping into and trying to re-create, uncover or invent what others had done, and maybe without success and face with bunch of failures because its simply not your subject OR, OR step onto the pedestal of others successes to enhance your own success and business. It all depends on your interest and what you are good at.

I dont even

No, no, I don't agree with the disparaging remarks on the Chinese made products, some had used with great successes for example Jason of STS Telecom - from rags to success using chinese tools and yeah! some tools are made for the beginners to start off with.

you mean his _chinese_ ~$400 (with tips and micropencil) hakko 951? or the fact he works on ZERO thermal mass feather light products for which even anemic 858 will suffice? or the fact his whole kit is >$1000? or his story of looking at previous repairs done with garbage equipment that came back and had to be done again? its almost as if you didnt watch his clips at all :0
What part of  "cheap chinese rework stations are for cellphone repair and will not work, or damage anything bigger" did you not understand in my post?
I had 852A(without ++) hotair about 10 years ago, its barely better than 858. Here is aoyuayeuyewhatever in action

cant even heat up one component on 10 layer graphic card to set temperature, and keeps LYING to your face about that temperature. Fun fact: shit cheap chinese tools lie about current temperature and instead simply switch to show set temp on both displays, because that apparently makes you feel better (mianzi is a huge part of chinese culture).

Yes, you can get by with shit tools, but you will pay with time, pain and quality of your work.
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Offline janoc

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I have that ATTEN 858D (bought it after Dave has reviewed it) and I would really not recommend it for reworking BGAs. It is OKish for small chips but with large ones it struggles. You will scorch the board, melt everything around but the chip still won't budge because there isn't enough heat being delivered.

858D is not a bad station for the price but you do get what you pay for - basically a hair dryer with a smaller nozzle. If you want to do professional repair, better invest in a proper tool - it will save you both the time and money.

Oh, and for your own sake, do invest in fume extraction if you don't have it already - I have learned this the hard way trying to salvage some stuff from a broken laptop board. I am not sure whether it was the flux on that board or some sort of glue, but the fumes it gave off when heated by the hot air were HORRID - really nasty, acrid, chlorine/hydrogen chloride smell that made me lose my sense of smell for a while. Not fun to work on that board at all.

« Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 03:43:47 pm by janoc »
 

Offline dicky96

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Hey guys this all seems to have gone a down something of a diversion, but it's an entertaining diversion  :)

Trying to get back on topic...

I was always happy with my 858D hot air station - it cost me about £25 and it has earned me far more than that in return, so how could I not think my hairdryer was excellent value for money?

I sometimes use it just to preheat an area of a board then use my soldering iron to do the rework.  This works very well for me.

OK, it can't handle this BGA but that is the first time it has failed me.  I guess your opinion of whether it is junk or not all depends on what sort of work you do with it.

Someone mentioned soldering irons - I've been using one of these 60W ZD-916 for a couple years or so.  It's handles anything i wanted to do, SMD or through hole, a little preheat with the 858D sometimes proves useful on boards with heavy ground planes.  I had to fix it once (78L05 regulator behind the LCD failed) and replace the iron once (tip welded itself in and I broke the element trying to change it) but again I can't complain, it has more than paid for itself.  Do I need anything better?  Hmmm, convince me  ;)

@Rasz
You seem to suggest I should get a 'decent' hot air rework station.  I never thought of using anything other than an IR station for BGA.  Would a better hot air station make that much difference and if so what would it cost?

I'm not going to start building my own IR rework station - I would rather not try reinventing that wheel and anyway doubt I have the required skills to do that.

Having looked around a lot - something like this T890 (or something similar in the same price range) http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/T890-BGA-IRDA-Welder-Infrared-Heating-Rework-Station-UK-/262215852302?hash=item3d0d48610e:g:loQAAOxy7nNTTl6a is where I am with this, budget wise. 

£1000++  ain't gonna happen right now.

I've seen some reviews of the T890, some folk say it can desolder larger BGAs, some others say it is not powerful enough for laptop boards.  It does have stored heat profiles

So what sort of work would I likely be able to undertake with that T890 or other £400-£500 IR station?  Would it rework these IPTV boxes and similar?  What are it's limitations? What couldn't I reasonable expect to do with it?

At around £450 I may even make my money back on the investment if it can do some real work, and if it is good enough to practice and learn some skills on as well then that's good enough reason for me. 

If at this price range I am still going to end up with a pretty useless toy then I will be shelving this project for now.

OK...... over to you lot to advise ;)



« Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 09:45:15 pm by dicky96 »
 

Offline Rasz

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happy with my 858D hot air station
can't handle this BGA
I guess your opinion of whether it is junk or not all depends on what sort of work you do with it.

No, it was predicated on what YOU wanted to do. You are the one asking for tools to do bigger BGA chips on multilayer boards.



Having looked around a lot - something like this T890 (or something similar in the same price range) http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/T890-BGA-IRDA-Welder-Infrared-Heating-Rework-Station-UK-/262215852302?hash=item3d0d48610e:g:loQAAOxy7nNTTl6a is where I am with this, budget wise. 


might be ok for cellphone work, let us know how it worked out for you
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Offline janoc

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I sometimes use it just to preheat an area of a board then use my soldering iron to do the rework.  This works very well for me.

OK, it can't handle this BGA but that is the first time it has failed me.  I guess your opinion of whether it is junk or not all depends on what sort of work you do with it.

Wasn't the entire point of this discussion rework and repair of boards with BGA chips?  :-//

Of course that the 858D works for other things but that's beside the point.
 

Offline dicky96

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Yes you're right janoc, it was mate.
I just don't think that something like the 858D that was obviously not intended for BGA work is therefore automatically junk - it has it's uses and I found it to be good at what it can do and have no complaints that it can't do this work  ;)

Hey Rasz, regards BGA rework - I actually don't think you are trying to piss on my chips here, in fact I rather like your blunt to the point attitude and opinion.

I was hoping someone had used these T890 IR stations and could give an experienced opinion on what they can do (yeah phones apparently, how about games consoles, tablets motherboards etc)

Phones I am sure could be quite profitable to repair but was not the main thrust of the direction I was interested in.  Actually I had a friendly chat with the guy at the local phone repair shop back in the UK and he actually showed me his workshop but other than a basic soldering iron I couldn't see even a rework station.  He said there wasn't much if any soldering required to fix phones - just lots of tiny screwdrivers and specific tools for swapping plug in bits.  He's been going for years so I guess he understands the market.

To stay back on topic, if the T890 isn't up to it then is there any sub £1000 soldering station that could replace those BGA I put up as an example or is it going to require more investment than that? 

In which case what is the cheapest price bracket for BGA rework stations that actually are worth buying?  And this includes being able to position the replacement BGA correctly otherwise there isn't a lot of point is there ;)

I'm sure you don't have to go £xxxxx five figure top of the range money.  Like anything else I ever looked at there must be a sliding scale of usefulness vs deminishing returns something like this

<---rubbish------usable----worth paying the extra-----overkill----willy waving>

I am still not clear on that scale, strangely enough, even after all the discussion on here. 

Cheers
Rich
 

Offline Rasz

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I just don't think that something like the 858D that was obviously not intended for BGA work is therefore automatically junk

its called cognitive dissonance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance, you bought it therefore it cant be that bad, you wouldnt buy something bad, you are too smart to make bad decisions.
 858 is not only junk, its also a fire and electrocution hazard.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/deadly-wiring-fault-atten-858d-hot-air-rework-station/
http://www.williamosman.com/2015/12/dangerous-wiring-fault-858d-hot-air.html
and so on

 Its the epitome of Chinese ingenuity when it comes to cost optimization. Price is the only quality that makes it useful. Btw I have one too, but I am fully aware of how crap it is :) + I have another proper one.

I was hoping someone had used these T890 IR stations and could give an experienced opinion on what they can do (yeah phones apparently, how about games consoles, tablets motherboards etc)

you would have to search Chinese repair forums. Even Russians are not desperate enough and usually build their own proper tools (just like I linked before).

Actually I had a friendly chat with the guy at the local phone repair shop back in the UK and he actually showed me his workshop but other than a basic soldering iron I couldn't see even a rework station.  He said there wasn't much if any soldering required to fix phones - just lots of tiny screwdrivers and specific tools for swapping plug in bits.  He's been going for years so I guess he understands the market.

He is probably Apple authorized aka his main service tools are shipping tape and label printer.

To stay back on topic, if the T890 isn't up to it then is there any sub £1000 soldering station that could replace those BGA I put up as an example or is it going to require more investment than that? 

desolder? sure
replace? did you know even small (its obvious for big ones) run manufacturers dont rework bigger BGA chips? they simply bin whole boards - its cheaper and easier than fixing it, even with access to $xxK equipment and experienced labour. This is why we are trying to tell you fixing $50 shitboxes is a fools errant.

In which case what is the cheapest price bracket for BGA rework stations that actually are worth buying?  And this includes being able to position the replacement BGA correctly otherwise there isn't a lot of point is there ;) 

probably couple of grand + another grand for stuff you will destroy while learning :)

Here is an idea - find the biggest cellphone/laptop repair shop in your area, beg them to hire you, learn.
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Offline dicky96

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In which case what is the cheapest price bracket for BGA rework stations that actually are worth buying?  And this includes being able to position the replacement BGA correctly otherwise there isn't a lot of point is there ;) 

probably couple of grand + another grand for stuff you will destroy while learning :)

Here is an idea - find the biggest cellphone/laptop repair shop in your area, beg them to hire you, learn.

Ahh now we are getting somewhere.  Thank you. So what does a couple of grand buy you that is value for money?

Regards biggest laptop repair shop in my area - go google 'Laptop Repair Gran Canaria' (that's the island I live now) and I think you will see my point.  There isn't one. Not really. OK there are a few computer shops who offer repair (they fit you a new new motherboard/ram/hdd whatever and clean up viruses) but proper laptop repair shops here - not that I know of.

There is an official apple dealership in the capital if we can call that a workshop. There is one in workshop in Vecindario (inland shopping town) who says they fix PCs and monitors., though i have never visited that one

Seen a few little electronics stores locally who will replace a cracked screen on your mobile if we want to class that as repairs.

But certainly not anything else at the south end of the island which where all the main tourism is and I am located.... maybe someone in the capital but that's an hour away and I haven't seen them advertising

This is the only computer repairer near me (AMiga Wifi) and I've met Luis and been in his workshop, it's a typical computer repair shop not an electronics workshop. http://www.wifiamiga.com/index.php/services/pc-service   

Oh come think of it there is one called CoService in Arguineguin (local working town with large norwegian expat community) but that one is also a typical computer shop and Independant Internet Provider. http://coservice.info/wordpress/   I was actually going to chat with both of these to see if I can contract any repair work they can't handle themselves (monitors for example)

This is why I feel there is a electronics repair business opportunity here going begging for someone with the right skills ;)

Rich
« Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 12:56:51 pm by dicky96 »
 

Offline RGB255_0_0

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In which case what is the cheapest price bracket for BGA rework stations that actually are worth buying?  And this includes being able to position the replacement BGA correctly otherwise there isn't a lot of point is there ;) 

probably couple of grand + another grand for stuff you will destroy while learning :)

Here is an idea - find the biggest cellphone/laptop repair shop in your area, beg them to hire you, learn.

Ahh now we are getting somewhere.  Thank you. So what does a couple of grand buy you that is value for money?

Regards biggest laptop repair shop in my area - go google 'Laptop Repair Gran Canaria' (that's the island I live now) and I think you will see my point.  There isn't one. Not really. OK there are a few computer shops who offer repair (they fit you a new new motherboard/ram/hdd whatever and clean up viruses) but proper laptop repair shops here - not that I know of.

There is an official apple dealership in the capital if we can call that a workshop. There is one in workshop in Vecindario (inland shopping town) who says they fix PCs and monitors., though i have never visited that one

Seen a few little electronics stores locally who will replace a cracked screen on your mobile if we want to class that as repairs.

But certainly not anything else at the south end of the island which where all the main tourism is and I am located.... maybe someone in the capital but that's an hour away and I haven't seen them advertising

This is the only computer repairer near me (AMiga Wifi) and I've met Luis and been in his workshop, it's a typical computer repair shop not an electronics workshop. http://www.wifiamiga.com/index.php/services/pc-service   

Oh come think of it there is one called CoService in Arguineguin (local working town with large norwegian expat community) but that one is also a typical computer shop and Independant Internet Provider. http://coservice.info/wordpress/   I was actually going to chat with both of these to see if I can contract any repair work they can't handle themselves (monitors for example)

This is why I feel there is a electronics repair business opportunity here going begging for someone with the right skills ;)

Rich
The reason why you don't find "proper" computer repair shops is the same reason as given above: economics. Why would you spend 2 hours troubleshooting a fault in an old P67 board when it'd be cheaper to take an Easyjet flight to mainland Europe, buy a board, fly back and swap it in. Let alone online ordering a 70 euro mainboard.

Your TV box example may work, provided you have access to plenty of donor boards, but ordering in parts from Ali/eBay to fix a £30 STB is heroic if you're a tree hugger but won't make you a living.
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Offline Rasz

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Find a job in Madrid? or teach tourist snorkeling/scuba diving, it will probably pay a lot more than fixing electronics
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Offline janoc

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He is probably Apple authorized aka his main service tools are shipping tape and label printer.

Rasz, a bit less condescending tone would help.

Not everyone does board level repair like Louis Rossmann does. That simply doesn't make sense in most cases. Fixing a Macbook or an iPhone can be profitable, given that those are expensive devices.

But a common $200 smartphone? Most of these shops only swap parts - displays, batteries, cracked cases. That's 99% of the repairs, the more advanced places will be able to resolder cracked solder joints on a charging connector. That's the maximum you will see, both because anything more requires advanced skills and also because nobody would pay $200-$300 for fixing a $200 water damaged phone. You don't need much beyond a screwdriver kit and a cheap hot air station for that. Have one guy like this at the local supermarket here - he doesn't even have a soldering iron in his booth.

« Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 02:00:58 pm by janoc »
 

Offline dicky96

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Quote
The reason why you don't find "proper" computer repair shops is the same reason as given above: economics. Why would you spend 2 hours troubleshooting a fault in an old P67 board when it'd be cheaper to take an Easyjet flight to mainland Europe, buy a board, fly back and swap it in. Let alone online ordering a 70 euro mainboard.

Your TV box example may work, provided you have access to plenty of donor boards, but ordering in parts from Ali/eBay to fix a £30 STB is heroic if you're a tree hugger but won't make you a living.

I do understand where you are coming from because I have experience of this myself.

Long short story...  but it does end up back on topic

When I got my qualifications in electronics repair back in the early 80s I was taught to repair to component level (TVs and Videos)  Some even still had valves in them!

My first job as an electronics repair engineer was with ICL and guess what - we were repairing computer PCBs to component level.  While working there they paid for me to take a two year part time course in microprocessor circuit design and programming at the local university.  After a few years break from electronics to work as a computer programmer I went back into electronics repair - working on industrial control electronics. 

This was interesting and challenging job! In many cases you would have to reverse engineer a board with no schematics, build a test rig, sometimes microprocessor based, or at least program an eprom in assembly language to make the DUT do 'something' so you could test the peripheral ICs etc. And this was working from component datasheets only. Bear in mind there was no such thing as the internet then  ;)  This is also where I really learned to repair SMPS properly, which had a lot more complexity and discrete components in the early 90s

After that I went self employed building and repairing PCs.  This was in the first half of the 90s.  Now when we were repairing PCs at my computer shop, yes, we were just swapping boards Ram Processors etc and I thoroughly understand the economics of this.  We were however repairing monitors (CRT ones of course) AT & ATX PSUs and things like Commodore Amiga computers to component level. 

On one occasion I got my hands on a large job lot (a transit van full!) of faulty Amiga PSUs and Modulators from one of the big UK distributors. I don't recall what I paid or if they even just said 'come and get them' but it was not very much even if I did pay something. That proved very profitable to repair and resell - for a while we were the cheapest sellers in the country in the computer magazines of the time. 

Another chance meeting with a trader at an amateur radio and electronics fair got me a contact who could get scrap from a big official Dell repair centre in Telford England - but he had no idea what to do with it other than dump it on the radio rally circuit.  Within weeks I was buying everything he could get, running vans every couple of weeks to load up with scrap for a couple hundred quid a van full.  Over a few months this got to be 7.5 ton trucks every week or two and I eventually had a larger warehouse/workshop near to the computer shop, two full time engineers working with me fixing this 'scrap' to component level and hey, we were turning over a very profitable business!

Unfortunately after a year or two 'corporate politics' got in the way and the supply of scrap dried up - but the point is the component level repair business was really profitable.

This takes us into the 2000s.  Having got out of the PC business around 2002 when it seemed the boom was over, then running various other businesses basically installing AV equipment in clubs and bars, and having nothing to do with electronics repair for years other than solder the occasional connection, in the 2010s the I found the business had 'morphed' I was doing a lot of equipment rentals to the pub trade and had a lot of time on my hands while the main business pretty much ran itself - and I started buying spares or repair stuff of ebay or scrounging broken stuff off pub customers - mostly DJ and band equipment, lasers, intelligent disco lighting etc.  And started fixing it to component level for profit.  Though I only ever did this on a part time basis it was certainly very profitable generating £000's a year in my spare time

So that brings me to now I guess.  Dismayed with the political direction my native country is now taking I decided I could not reconcile myself with that and the only reasonable response was to give up and leave them to it. ;) At least I (with the missus) brought net migration down by two lol

So here I am in Gran Canaria and need to make some money so I'm doing some repair work, mostly TVs at the moment - to component level - and making some money from that.  Too soon to say if it will be profitable enough.

Recently someone asked me to look at a USB 1TByte hard drive.  After a quick diagnosis it turned out it had a short circuit on the 5V rail.  I asked the owner if it was worth the cost of repair and they said 'I could easily get a new drive but I could never replace the data on that one'. 

I fixed a few HDDs back in the day and anyway tracing a short circuit on a HDD controller board is about the same as doing it on anything else.  Actually I got a replacement second hand controller card first, was going to desolder the bios and fit it to the new card, then replace it.  But at the last minute I decided to properly trace the fault for the experience of working on dense miniature SMD stuff. It was a short circuit SMD capacitor near the motor driver chip and it was soon working again, data intact - plus I have a spare donor board for future use maybe. 

The owner was over the moon to get his drive and data back and that component level repair turned to be more lucrative than the TV repairs, he even paid me over the quoted price as a 'tip' :)

This got me into researching more about HDD repairs, which led me to badcaps forum and to here - researching about motherboard and laptop repairs.  In turn I then found Louis Rossman's videos. This was something of an eye opener as I never really considered those sort of things to be repairable any more.

So yes I have years of experience of repair work as a full time and part time business - both running a computer shop building, upgrading and 'repairing by board swapping' PCs (profitable) and component level repair (profitable). 

Now I'm wondering what the local computer 'repair' shops here are doing with all their scrap boards PSUs and drives....   I return to the UK regularly so could also bring some 'junk' back with me.

As it appears to be the common opinion that this is most likely an unprofitable venture (my past experience tells me otherwise so I just need to discover for myself), and very few apparently do this sort of work anyway as it is not economically viable, I guess that is why no one here really has the experience to say what BGA repair station at what price is really capable of what repair work?

Rich
« Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 05:06:28 pm by dicky96 »
 
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Offline Armadillo

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I guess that is why no one here really has the experience to say what BGA repair station at what price is really capable of what repair work?
Rich
:-+ You nailed it Rich, that should keep empty vessels quite for a while and save me from reading so many off-subject nonsense  :clap: thanks.
 

Offline RGB255_0_0

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I was going to reply to Janoc's post earlier that Jessa and Louis will often do repairs for data recovery, not necessarily to reuse the device. But you also found this out: it is the only economical repair. Or Macbook motherboards. But when watching Louis curse for 15 minutes attempting an SMC replacement gets old quick, and I'd imagine anyone relying on maybe-not-so-kosher replacements, and start to regret getting into that line of work.

Louis even did a video about getting AMD GPUs from Ali that turned out to be faked. There are far too many trap doors when working with Apple stuff especially.

Back to data recovery. You're in a holiday-centric economy. People probably drop their phones into the pool or what have you. They probably would use your service. But if you're only on holiday for a week and you're leaving in 2 days and you can't guaranteed it'd be done by then, there is no reason for them to use you. So you need to get repairs done quick, or rely on locals or seasonal visitors who stay for the northern winter.

You're hesitant to want to shell out on quality equipment - you're clearly not confident you can make money. You're better off being a distributor for TV STBs and maybe repair for refurb than thinking you can get away with just repairing.
Your toaster just set fire to an African child over TCP.
 

Offline janoc

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I was going to reply to Janoc's post earlier that Jessa and Louis will often do repairs for data recovery, not necessarily to reuse the device. But you also found this out: it is the only economical repair. Or Macbook motherboards. But when watching Louis curse for 15 minutes attempting an SMC replacement gets old quick, and I'd imagine anyone relying on maybe-not-so-kosher replacements, and start to regret getting into that line of work.

Also keep in mind that they work only on Apple devices where both parts are somewhat available and people are willing to pay for the data from the phone. Cheap Android phones usually have SD cards, so should it get water damaged, there isn't that much interest to do data recovery - the card will likely still work.

Both Louis and Jessa said very explicitly why they aren't taking anything but Apple hw for repair.
 

Offline dicky96

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.

You're hesitant to want to shell out on quality equipment - you're clearly not confident you can make money. You're better off being a distributor for TV STBs and maybe repair for refurb than thinking you can get away with just repairing.

Actually there you have me wrong -  I am not hesitant in investing money in the right (quality) equipment - I'm struggling to understand  what is the right and what is the wrong equipment  :-\

rich
 

Offline Rasz

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shots fired :scared:

I guess that is why no one here really has the experience to say what BGA repair station at what price is really capable of what repair work?

no, its because you said couple of hundred for the tools to fix $50 shitboxes
Want some tool models listed that badly? Here you go, I personally worked on
-IR PRO SC, >thousand euro for chinese piece of shit almost made in a garage by blind children using random bits from aliexpres($50 and $20 off the shelf temp controllers etc), broke 2 times, dead first time (bad connection), second time wouldnt disengage preheater = scorched whole pcb while every component swam away. You can build something like this at 1/3 the price using exact same elements + it wouldnt die on you because chinese child was too weak to crimp wires properly. In fact 2 of the 3 DIY systems I linked to earlier are using EXACT same parts as this one (Altec PC410, REX C100), <$300 + labour.
-Jovy 8500, was trouble free.

Both had no problem with ps3, laptops, graphic cards. If you see a rework station with work area <30x30cm and/or <1500W its meant for phones/tablets.

if fx951 is too expensive at 250 you can buy $100 Quick 202D, excellent quality and its Induction ~like super expensive OKi/Metcals (older 400Khz systems, obviously not the 13MHz ones), except it uses thermocouple instead of curie point.
hotair already told you exact model to get - Quick 861
I also heard good things about Quick 2035, Quick is very popular in my area due to surprisingly good quality at chinese prices.

so there, here is your ~$2000 rope :)
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Offline RGB255_0_0

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.

You're hesitant to want to shell out on quality equipment - you're clearly not confident you can make money. You're better off being a distributor for TV STBs and maybe repair for refurb than thinking you can get away with just repairing.

Actually there you have me wrong -  I am not hesitant in investing money in the right (quality) equipment - I'm struggling to understand  what is the right and what is the wrong equipment  :-\

rich
Rasz has already gone through all the rigamarole.

Really there is no real true right or wrong because it depends on the board you're working on: how much thermal mass; how quickly heat is drawn away from work area. Sometimes you can get away with preheating at a slightly higher temp, other times you will damage connectors.

You want to get the chip of quickly and without risking damage to the pads so you don't cause damage.

At the end of the day YMMV with the cheap end, but has a far higher chance of succeeding properly with known quality, branded equipment.
Your toaster just set fire to an African child over TCP.
 

Offline dicky96

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At last some real info that I can use

The Jovy 8500 I can get in UK, it ain't cheap but it ain't stupidly expensive either and I even get 4hrs free training if I go down to London for the day and pick it up in person which saves postage :)  If I fly direct from here it would cost me nothing extra to do that

Still don't know how to align replacement BGA chips though without one of those fancy optical trickery things like I saw on Louis video and others and I don't see that on the Jovy unless it is an accessory.  Do I need one?

At least now I have a good idea of what I need

A little more advice required on alignment techniques?  Yes i know I am being a PITA but I want to get this right

Cheers
Rich



« Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 10:39:18 pm by dicky96 »
 

Offline Rasz

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as said earlier
+ another grand for stuff you will destroy while learning

thats what dropping $8K on Zhuomao gets you, or $5K on LY("manufacturer" of IR PRO SC) copy of Zhuomao
or $400 diy, but you dont want that
+even 8K machine wont save you from frying components while learning to make profiles/using wrong ones from manufacturer
Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
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