Author Topic: BGA replacement - what equipment and tools do I need for reliable results?  (Read 11154 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline dicky96

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 148
  • Country: es
Hi guys

I want to expand the range of repairs I can undertake. Currently I'm mostly fixing TVs, Audio equipment, DJ Equipment and 'disco' lighting.  Having said that I have fixed a couple of SATA hard drive controller boards

I would like to offer repairs of Laptops. Tablet PCs, motherboards etc

I currently have a couple of faulty MAG250 IPTV boxes here

Both of these have short circuits (or low resistances) on one voltage rail or another (3.3V / vCore)

On one of them, using my bench PSU in CC mode and applying voltage to the 3.3V rail with the buck regulator inductor removed, I gradually ramped up the current to see what would getting warm. At the full 3A (V was now about 2V or so) the only thing getting warm is the big (STi7105-BUD) BGA chip on the centre of the board.

The other one has a short/fault on the vCore rail - I managed to get the 3.3V up to the correct voltage but with about 2.5A flowing - which is too much - and again only the STi7105 was  getting hot.  The oscillator was even running, but nothing else seemed to happen.

I decided I would have a go at removing one of these BGA chips with the hot air station just to see if that was really the cause of the low resistance but to be honest I couldn't even get it to come loose with any reasonable amount of heat applied. Also there are a lot of smd components on the other side of the pcb below the STi7105 and I was worried they may fall off with too much heat

However what I did notice, once the board had cooled back down is the 12 ohm low resistance on the 3.3V rail is now about 7 ohm so that has changed by heating the chip.

Out of interest I googled the STi7105-BUD and found a couple of interesting things.

http://www.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/pdf/244196/STMICROELECTRONICS/STI7105.html

Firstly it does not seem to be a programmable device but uses external Eeprom/Flash

Secondly I can get them for 7.50 euros inc postage  ;)

Sooooooooo....... I was thinking of having a go at fixing them, as much for the learning experience as anything else, and of course the ability to take on more similar repairs

Getting parts is not the problem. Question is - what equipment and techniques would I need to replace this type of chip? 

Assuming I can get the BGA chip off without breaking something, how do I get the replacement one positioned correctly to resolder?

I've watched youtube videos a-plenty of BGA reballing/resoldering but to be honest I am now more confused than when I started  :-//

Obviously you need the right tool for the right job - What investment in equipment would I have to make to be able to repair these sort of faults with an acceptable level of success? 

Pics of the STi7105 BGA and the underside of the MAG250 board showing the components beneath it.  This would be a good example of the type of repair I would like to undertake so let's start with that.

Cheers
Rich
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 06:14:55 pm by dicky96 »
 
The following users thanked this post: Rasz

Offline MagicSmoker

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1245
  • Country: us
Reballing is the process of putting solder balls back onto the component pads, so probably not something you need to learn right away if the goal is to merely replace components, rather than reuse them.

To replace a BGA component you need a strong and profiled flow of hot air to remove the IC, then strip as much of the old solder off the board as possible and then the tricky part - because the board is populated and likely very dense if it uses BGA components - is to reapply solder paste onto the board pads, using either a very small BGA rework stencil or an accurate solder dot dispenser (the latter requires considerably more skill to use, and is a much higher one-time cost).

Understand that this is not an easy process and most companies - mine included - choose to discard board with bad BGA components rather than rework them. That said, a few years ago everyone and his brother was offering BGA rework service for one of those game consoles that had a fatal flaw of some sort. The red circle of death or something? So repairs aren't insurmountable, either.



 

Offline dicky96

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 148
  • Country: es
Quote
Understand that this is not an easy process and most companies - mine included - choose to discard board with bad BGA components rather than rework them.

Thanks for the reply
I'm sure it isn't easy but if I'm the only one on this little island who can do it, then it could be quite worthwhile?

Cheers
Rich
 

Online james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9524
  • Country: us
The usual process for reflowing the xbox consoles and related stuff was just to squirt some flux under the BGA and heat it to reflow the existing solder. It didn't normally require removal of the chip.
 
The following users thanked this post: MagicSmoker

Offline rob77

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1848
  • Country: sk
the real question here is "is it worth repairing a relatively cheap set-top-box ?" the cost of the repair will be on par with the cost of the new device.

you can be the pain stripper hot air "re-hot" guy doing it for $20 to try to fix a $100 set-top-box.
or you can be the repairman doing it right and ask $100 for the repair.  but who will pay you $100 to repair a $100 device ?

 

Offline MagicSmoker

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1245
  • Country: us
The usual process for reflowing the xbox consoles and related stuff was just to squirt some flux under the BGA and heat it to reflow the existing solder. It didn't normally require removal of the chip.

I thought it was the xbox - wasn't sure, and couldn't be bothered to look it up - but I didn't know that the problem was simply a bad solder joint... and I guess M$ didn't splurge for x-ray inspection, either...

 

Offline wraper

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 10349
  • Country: lv
The usual process for reflowing the xbox consoles and related stuff was just to squirt some flux under the BGA and heat it to reflow the existing solder. It didn't normally require removal of the chip.
And was a useless procedure as well. Just heating the chip would do the same job (temporarily reviving the dead IC) as the issue was not in solder joints.
 

Offline wraper

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 10349
  • Country: lv
The usual process for reflowing the xbox consoles and related stuff was just to squirt some flux under the BGA and heat it to reflow the existing solder. It didn't normally require removal of the chip.

I thought it was the xbox - wasn't sure, and couldn't be bothered to look it up - but I didn't know that the problem was simply a bad solder joint... and I guess M$ didn't splurge for x-ray inspection, either...
It wasn't. Widespread myth and BS. The fact you can temporarily revive it by heating, actually without melting the solder, does not mean there is an issue with soldering
 

Online james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9524
  • Country: us
Well it did seem to work, my friend reflowed one, preheated the PCB from below and then heated the IC with a hot air tool and it was still working fine a year later when he sold it. I can't say for sure it was the BGA soldering but the reflow process did generally seem to fix it.
 

Offline Rasz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2279
  • Country: 00
    • My random blog.
1 is it worth it? this looks like $50 box
2 parts on the bottom wont fall off unless you blow really hard on them
3 remove stickers before work, bad things happen to parts that are stickered down when solder melts (hotair/owen)
4 what did you use? cheap 858 something? you will need 2 of those :D one blowing slow air from the bottom to heat pcb up to ~150, other set to max  fast air from the top, or buy a real hotair, like Quick 861Dw


btw Xbox 360 was actually cracked solder joints, not the chip
Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
My fireplace is on fire, but in all the wrong places.
 

Offline dicky96

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 148
  • Country: es
the real question here is "is it worth repairing a relatively cheap set-top-box ?" the cost of the repair will be on par with the cost of the new device.

you can be the pain stripper hot air "re-hot" guy doing it for $20 to try to fix a $100 set-top-box.
or you can be the repairman doing it right and ask $100 for the repair.  but who will pay you $100 to repair a $100 device ?

Yes I was using an 858 - but your suggestion of using two sounds useful   :)

Regards is it worth it -  I was mostly asking about these techniques and equipment required....and just putting these boxes as an example

However let's just talk about that a little - Is it worth it? -  does the answer not depend on where you are?

Little islands in the sun for 330 days a year = 800k happy healthy and nicely tanned residents plus 4x that many in tourists a year, and plenty of bars and hotels/apartments with TV and IPTV and stuff to generally break down in the heat etc....but when it goes wrong, try get that replacement 100 euros box here without paying about 30% more in import duty and waiting about 3-4 weeks to clear customs.  Or just fly back over to UK/mainland EU and bring one back yourself, don't forget to add your flight tickets to the cost. And AFAIK no one on this island can do this sort of repair.

Seriously guys let's talk about the technical sides of this and the investment in equipment required and then I will work out if it is a reasonable prospect or not. OK? or as they say here - Bale (pronounced like ballet)?

Rich
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 09:58:32 pm by dicky96 »
 

Offline RGB255_0_0

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 774
  • Country: gb
Get a preheater, reflow oven (could be DIY), optionally/ideally an ultra sonic cleaner and a good microscope but not essential to go crazy expensive.

Louis Rossmann on YouTube has lots of videos of the equipment he has and his process as well as many others.
Your toaster just set fire to an African child over TCP.
 

Offline rob77

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1848
  • Country: sk
if you want to seriously jump into the business and do it right then the investment will be relatively significant.

absolute minimum to fix cracked solder joints would be:

good hot-air station
preheater (at least a oven to preheat boards)
jig + stencils for re-balling chips

for more serious repair shop add a infra-red soldering station with bga alignment jig to work with bigger bga chips (it's mission impossible to "eye-ball" a 1k baller BGA without tools)

and if you plan to do BGA chip soldering for living, then definitely buy a X-ray machine for inspecting the results (even with the best IR station with the best alignment jig you can end-up with a bridge between 2 balls under the chip)

 

Offline Samogon

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 454
  • Country: us
if you want to seriously jump into the business and do it right then the investment will be relatively significant.

absolute minimum to fix cracked solder joints would be:

good hot-air station
preheater (at least a oven to preheat boards)
jig + stencils for re-balling chips

for more serious repair shop add a infra-red soldering station with bga alignment jig to work with bigger bga chips (it's mission impossible to "eye-ball" a 1k baller BGA without tools)

and if you plan to do BGA chip soldering for living, then definitely buy a X-ray machine for inspecting the results (even with the best IR station with the best alignment jig you can end-up with a bridge between 2 balls under the chip)

Sounds like $10k plus investment
 

Offline dicky96

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 148
  • Country: es
Hi guys - that's some interesting info now

I've seen a few of Louis Rossman videos on youtube and actually that was what inspired me to look at stuff again that I didn't really think was repairable before.  Actually I think he's quite a funny guy, makes me laugh sometimes.  I did see the video regards microscopes and also the one where he explains why reballing GPUs doesn't work.

What I haven't seen is one where he actually removes and replaces a large BGA - if there is such a video I would like to see that.

Regards the IR desoldering stations - what sets a good one apart from a bad one?

There seem to be various price ranges from the cheap http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TOP-BGA-REWORK-STATION-INFRARED-SMD-SMT-IRDA-WELDER-SOLDERING-MACHINE-T862-/292028217223?hash=item43fe3cf787:g:T-MAAOxyIv5Tj9Ui

To the reasonably priced http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/YH-1000B-4-IN-1-SOLDERING-IRON-HOT-AIR-REWORK-PREHEATING-INFRARED-BGA-STATION-UK-/182361419231?hash=item2a75966ddf:g:O5IAAOSw44BYMur6

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/T-870A-Infrared-BGA-Rework-Station-IRDA-Soldering-Welder-35-50-mm-CE-/231182438589?hash=item35d38c10bd:g:ccwAAOxyoVZTJr4N

To the considerable investment http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DH-5860-BGA-Rework-Station-Infrared-Preheating-Remove-Soldering-Station-/222199218530?hash=item33bc1b0162:g:dU8AAOSwSv1XlxGm

I just picked these as random examples of price range from ebay

Haven't seen Dave do any eevblog videos comparing/reviewing IR soldering equipment, not that this means there aren't any

Cheers
Rich
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 09:46:53 am by dicky96 »
 

Offline Armadillo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1725
  • Country: 00
There are more equipment than those;

 

Offline dicky96

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 148
  • Country: es
There are more equipment than those;


That looks very nice mate - I do worry when you find a website for an item and it does not actually tell you the price but that looks expensive!

I did find a video with Louis changing a large BGA



I think he says that is a $7000 rework station.  Is that using optical 'trickery' or something to align the BGA?

Rich
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 01:22:18 pm by dicky96 »
 

Online amspire

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3783
  • Country: au
Just so you know what the bottom of the chip looks like, I have attached a photo of the stencil template.

Louis usually doesn't use his machine for small BGA replacement, but this is a big chip. Looks like the corner pads are probably within 1mm of the edges, so if you want to have a go without expensive equipment, it may be possible to position well enough.

The heat will be a problem - you have to get it so all the joints are molten so the IC is floating and surface tension will help pull the IC into the right position.

Even if you buy balled chips, there is a good chance of a failure on the first attempt and then you have to remove the chip, reball it and try again.

You can get stencils of the right pitch very easily (this $4 kit of 27 stencils includes one that is large enough with the needed 0.5mm ball pitch: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/27pcs-Directly-Heat-Rework-BGA-Reball-Reballing-Universal-Stencil-Template-Set/32359115589.html )

You can use solder paste instead of balls - see some of Louis's recent videos. This stencil has far more holes then you need, but you can clean off any excess unattached solder balls on the bottom of the chip easily.

It is a pretty difficult chip to learn on. The chances of it working are probably not great, but if you have faulty boards, by all means have a go.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 02:16:03 pm by amspire »
 

Offline Rasz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2279
  • Country: 00
    • My random blog.
Yes, "is it worth it" is a totally valid question no matter where you are, Manhattan or middle of nowhere prison island. You think there is a market for fast turn around IPTV boxes? order 10 from china and offer locally as a fast replacement instead of investing ~$4000 to sometimes fix $50 whatever.

rework contraptions you listed (except maybe last one) are meant for small cellphone shops, small power and working area = either wont melt solder at all, or do one spot deforming it in the process
Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
My fireplace is on fire, but in all the wrong places.
 
The following users thanked this post: Samogon

Offline Armadillo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1725
  • Country: 00
The chances of it working are probably not great, but if you have faulty boards, by all means have a go.

Imagine you spent couple of hours changing a US$200 BGA chip to find out that it is not the problem  |O.
Payback period of investment, tools, jigs and fixtures, and utilities, consumables together with technical failures need to be accounted for in the business equation aside from salaries amongst others against a probable business hindsight, need to be evaluated "carefully" and mathematically worked out. Additionally, explore the reasoning why others equal human beings have not delved into the prospect? They are lesser intelligent, maybe?
Its a probable business risk analysis that could not be diminished, apart from technical and equipment.

OK, let's get back to the equipment and technical.  :)
 

Offline dicky96

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 148
  • Country: es
Yes, "is it worth it" is a totally valid question no matter where you are, Manhattan or middle of nowhere prison island. You think there is a market for fast turn around IPTV boxes? order 10 from china and offer locally as a fast replacement instead of investing ~$4000 to sometimes fix $50 whatever.


I'll say it again - IPTV box was just an example of some boards I have here with faulty BGA components!!

Honestly Rasz - it's not relevant to whether it is 'worth it' any more than that.... and it seems as good choice a choice as any to practice on these seeing as the IPTV boxes are not valuable, the board is only 105mmx85mm, I already diagnosed the fault as best I can, and the cost of replacement parts is very low. 

Let's call it an investment in personal skills and abilities instead.  Or I'll find a photo of laptop or games console or Apple board or whatever to post here instead if that makes a difference to your opinion.  Or maybe you don't feel investing in ones betterment is a worthwhile pursuit?

Anyway - I just wanted to know is what equipment is needed, at a minimum,  for this kind of work.  And what advantage to be gained by spending a little more?  This is because the information on the net seems a little confusing to me. 

For example the cheapest IR plus preheat I can seem to find are these T862++ at about £150.   Oddly enough I don't seem able to find any real reviews of them.  A couple of videos on youtube of faulty ones and a forum post which said they were useless and damaged chips and boards.  However that could be someone not using the equipment properly. 

Maybe something that cheapo must be crap. Who knows?  My 858D hot air desolder station was really cheap but so far it has done plenty of useful work and I think it's one of the best value for money items I ever bought.  It doesn't seem to like desoldering these things though  ;)

Maybe I will decide it is all too much bother and expense to try and learn these skills.  But That still does not make asking the questions any less worthwhile
Rich
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 05:30:43 pm by dicky96 »
 

Offline dicky96

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 148
  • Country: es
Right I have done some more research now.  It seems the T862++ is not much more use than a hot air desolder station

I came across some reviews of the T870
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/T-890-Infrared-Bga-Rework-Station-Irda-Soldering-Welder-/382051949760?hash=item58f4121cc0:g:KawAAOSwA3dYHVRK

and T890
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/T-890-Infrared-Bga-Rework-Station-Irda-Soldering-Welder-/382051949760?hash=item58f4121cc0:g:KawAAOSwA3dYHVRK

It would seem the main difference is the 890 has stored (programmable?) heat profiles

At £400-£500 the T890 is about as much as I would want to spend on this project - heck I may even be able to recover that sort of expense fixing a few IPTV boxes  :P

Some forum posts on badcaps and elsewhere say these are not powerful enough for big boards and chips like laptops, others say they will desolder just about anything.  Maybe that is difference of opinion, abilities, or usage?

Some posts around the net suggest for laptop work etc you need a minimum of something like this Honton HT-R490: http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xhonton+r490.TRS0&_nkw=honton+r490&_sacat=0

So it is now a question - can I do a reasonable amount of useful work with something like a T890, and hone my skills.... or may as well not pursue this right now I think

Cheers
Rich
 

Offline Rasz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2279
  • Country: 00
    • My random blog.
Honestly Rasz - it's not relevant

it is, but its ok. You might think im pissing on your idea now, but you will understand in a year or two :)

For example the cheapest IR plus preheat I can seem to find are these T862++ at about £150.   Oddly enough I don't seem able to find any real reviews of them.  A couple of videos on youtube of faulty ones and a forum post which said they were useless and damaged chips and boards.  However that could be someone not using the equipment properly. 
no, they are shit toys for suckers entering cellphone repair game. Typical Chinese lets make something that _looks_  proper product.

Maybe something that cheapo must be crap. Who knows?  My 858D hot air desolder station was really cheap but so far it has done plenty of useful work and I think it's one of the best value for money items I ever bought.  It doesn't seem to like desoldering these things though  ;)

yes, its equally shit, its ok for small smd components, dip and occasional shrink wrap :)
its really not a conspiracy why experienced shops dont use them, just like you yourself discovered it cant even desolder small bga chips

Maybe I will decide it is all too much bother and expense to try and learn these skills.  But That still does not make asking the questions any less worthwhile

those skills are valuable, but obtaining them will cost real money(or lots mistakes and time), money you might not get back without proper opportunities (fixing IPTV boxes and random $150 Acer laptop is not it).
 You wont learn much using garbage like 858. Well no, you actually will learn about it being bad, just like trying to use toy rework stations will give you extensive knowledge about thermal expansion, shock, deformation, broken internal traces, fried components etc.

Proper rework equipment is expensive not because its made of some special sauce, but because of very small volume. You can build decent on the budget IR soldering station yourself with a bit of research.

examples, first one easily competes with $30K professional setups:




you can even DIY fancy alignment system on the cheap



Start with a proper hotair gun, Quick 861 < ~$300
Proper soldering iron, not 836 piece of shit chinese clone, but anything using HAKKO T12 tips, either genuine FX-951 $250, counterfeit FX-951 $100, or even $20 DIY controller https://www.banggood.com/Digital-Soldering-Iron-Station-Temperature-Controller-Kits-for-HAKKO-T12-Handle-p-993248.html
+ flux (NOT the chinese Amtech from "Califomia") + couple of shit $3 tweezer sets
+ old camcorder with TV for improvised inspection setup
Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
My fireplace is on fire, but in all the wrong places.
 

Offline Armadillo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1725
  • Country: 00

You can build decent on the budget IR soldering station yourself with a bit of research.


Quite a bunch of self-contradictory bullshits there;
If you profess that you can build yourself the budget IR soldering station, so why don't you build the soldering iron yourself instead of advising people to use the T12 tips and genuine soldering iron FX-951? Obviously there are heavy engineering involved even in that simple looking soldering iron "TIP" itself.
Conversely speaking, You can in fact waste your whole entire life stepping into and trying to re-create, uncover or invent what others had done, and maybe without success and face with bunch of failures because its simply not your subject OR, OR step onto the pedestal of others successes to enhance your own success and business. It all depends on your interest and what you are good at.
No, no, I don't agree with the disparaging remarks on the Chinese made products, some had used with great successes for example Jason of STS Telecom - from rags to success using chinese tools and yeah! some tools are made for the beginners to start off with.
Cheers!  :)



watch 38:40

« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 09:10:09 pm by Armadillo »
 

Offline rob77

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1848
  • Country: sk

No, no, I don't agree with the disparaging remarks on the Chinese made products, some had used with great successes for example Jason of STS Telecom - from rags to success using chinese tools and yeah! some tools are made for the beginners to start off with.
Cheers!  :)



watch 38:40



when he started to talk i subscribed to his channel... when he started to look for capacitors costing half a cent on donor boards.. i unsubscribed ;)
ability to work with cheap tools is essential for small business... but cheaping out on capacitors ? many places sell cut tape smd parts... you can get 1000 capacitors for $5 or even less, that's 0.5 cents a pop.... you buy 1K of each common value (100n, 1u, 2u2, 4u7, 10u) and you have a supply that will last you "forever" in a repair shop.
 

Online DaJMasta

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1650
  • Country: us
    • medpants.com
when he started to talk i subscribed to his channel... when he started to look for capacitors costing half a cent on donor boards.. i unsubscribed ;)
ability to work with cheap tools is essential for small business... but cheaping out on capacitors ? many places sell cut tape smd parts... you can get 1000 capacitors for $5 or even less, that's 0.5 cents a pop.... you buy 1K of each common value (100n, 1u, 2u2, 4u7, 10u) and you have a supply that will last you "forever" in a repair shop.

This isn't really on topic, but you avoid a lot of effort and potential pitfalls by using donor boards, and you're already taking the big chips off, right.... so what's wrong with using the residual parts?

Lets say, for example, that you maintain a stock of caps and resistors and other passives (and you probably should), but you use those as replacements for the stuff on all repaired boards.  Well some part manufacturers will be different, some capacitor dielectrics will be different, some resistor tolerances will be different, etc.  In a lot of devices any old replacement will do, but every so often you're going to run into a high frequency circuit that really needs low ESL caps to keep signal integrity, or you're going to run into a resistor divider that is out of spec with the 5% tolerance you replaced it with, or what have you.  Most of the time it will be fine, but that's definitely not a guarantee, whereas if you're using the specified part that was put in by someone who knew what they were doing, the donor replacement will work... plus you save the time of sorting through the schematic to find the value and then sorting through your collection to get the right value.

Reusing parts isn't cheaping out because so long as they're in good shape, you are using the parts originally specified in the design by the OEM.
 

Offline rob77

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1848
  • Country: sk
when he started to talk i subscribed to his channel... when he started to look for capacitors costing half a cent on donor boards.. i unsubscribed ;)
ability to work with cheap tools is essential for small business... but cheaping out on capacitors ? many places sell cut tape smd parts... you can get 1000 capacitors for $5 or even less, that's 0.5 cents a pop.... you buy 1K of each common value (100n, 1u, 2u2, 4u7, 10u) and you have a supply that will last you "forever" in a repair shop.

This isn't really on topic, but you avoid a lot of effort and potential pitfalls by using donor boards, and you're already taking the big chips off, right.... so what's wrong with using the residual parts?

Lets say, for example, that you maintain a stock of caps and resistors and other passives (and you probably should), but you use those as replacements for the stuff on all repaired boards.  Well some part manufacturers will be different, some capacitor dielectrics will be different, some resistor tolerances will be different, etc.  In a lot of devices any old replacement will do, but every so often you're going to run into a high frequency circuit that really needs low ESL caps to keep signal integrity, or you're going to run into a resistor divider that is out of spec with the 5% tolerance you replaced it with, or what have you.  Most of the time it will be fine, but that's definitely not a guarantee, whereas if you're using the specified part that was put in by someone who knew what they were doing, the donor replacement will work... plus you save the time of sorting through the schematic to find the value and then sorting through your collection to get the right value.

Reusing parts isn't cheaping out because so long as they're in good shape, you are using the parts originally specified in the design by the OEM.

agree it's off topic, but let me disagree with what you say..

1. schematic - you already reading it and watching the boardview otherwise you wouldn't be able to repair a board, so you know the value
2. decoupling caps are always X5R or X7R because other dielectric can't provide such higfh capacity in 0603,0402 or 0201 package.
3. on digital boards all the resistors are either pull-up or pull-down or impedance match... neither of those is critical in terms of tolerance... 1% ones are more than good enough.
4. if the cap died on impact then what guarantee you have the one on donor board (which most probably suffered some impact as well - otherwise it wouldn't be a donor board) will not short out in few days ?
5. using chips from donor boards is OK because in most of the cases that's the one and ONLY option available.
6. if you spend 3 minutes salvaging a capacitor from a donor board... then what's the cost ? if you charge $100/hour then that cap costs you $5 !  i can get the cap from the tape in 10 seconds.. that's 28 cents for your time and half a cent for the cap, so let's say 30 cents in total.

so cheap tools ? definitely YES ! reuse chips from donor boards ? YES because there is no other way ! salvage dirt cheap passives from donor boards ? HELL NO !! 
 

Offline Armadillo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1725
  • Country: 00

when he started to talk i subscribed to his channel... when he started to look for capacitors costing half a cent on donor boards.. i unsubscribed ;)

Now, what did Louis Rossmann said in one of his video, Quote "Don't underestimate donor boards". UnQuote;
It's part of their trade not limiting to Jason.
 

Offline rob77

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1848
  • Country: sk

when he started to talk i subscribed to his channel... when he started to look for capacitors costing half a cent on donor boards.. i unsubscribed ;)

Now, what did Louis Rossmann said in one of his video, Quote "Don't underestimate donor boards". UnQuote;
It's part of their trade not limiting to Jason.

see #6 in my post above...
 

Offline Armadillo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1725
  • Country: 00

when he started to talk i subscribed to his channel... when he started to look for capacitors costing half a cent on donor boards.. i unsubscribed ;)

Now, what did Louis Rossmann said in one of his video, Quote "Don't underestimate donor boards". UnQuote;
It's part of their trade not limiting to Jason.

see #6 in my post above...

made sense!  :-+
 

Offline Rasz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2279
  • Country: 00
    • My random blog.

You can build decent on the budget IR soldering station yourself with a bit of research.


Quite a bunch of self-contradictory bullshits there;

is that language barrier?

If you profess that you can build yourself the budget IR soldering station, so why don't you build the soldering iron yourself instead of advising people to use the T12 tips and genuine soldering iron FX-951?

you mean like this:
Quote
counterfeit FX-951 $100, or even $20 DIY controller https://www.banggood.com/Digital-Soldering-Iron-Station-Temperature-Controller-Kits-for-HAKKO-T12-Handle-p-993248.html

I personally use one of those $10 controllers with T12 tips, I had 951 for a while, but the only difference I noticed was very bad UI of the genuine tool.

Obviously there are heavy engineering involved even in that simple looking soldering iron "TIP" itself.
Conversely speaking, You can in fact waste your whole entire life stepping into and trying to re-create, uncover or invent what others had done, and maybe without success and face with bunch of failures because its simply not your subject OR, OR step onto the pedestal of others successes to enhance your own success and business. It all depends on your interest and what you are good at.

I dont even

No, no, I don't agree with the disparaging remarks on the Chinese made products, some had used with great successes for example Jason of STS Telecom - from rags to success using chinese tools and yeah! some tools are made for the beginners to start off with.

you mean his _chinese_ ~$400 (with tips and micropencil) hakko 951? or the fact he works on ZERO thermal mass feather light products for which even anemic 858 will suffice? or the fact his whole kit is >$1000? or his story of looking at previous repairs done with garbage equipment that came back and had to be done again? its almost as if you didnt watch his clips at all :0
What part of  "cheap chinese rework stations are for cellphone repair and will not work, or damage anything bigger" did you not understand in my post?
I had 852A(without ++) hotair about 10 years ago, its barely better than 858. Here is aoyuayeuyewhatever in action

cant even heat up one component on 10 layer graphic card to set temperature, and keeps LYING to your face about that temperature. Fun fact: shit cheap chinese tools lie about current temperature and instead simply switch to show set temp on both displays, because that apparently makes you feel better (mianzi is a huge part of chinese culture).

Yes, you can get by with shit tools, but you will pay with time, pain and quality of your work.
Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
My fireplace is on fire, but in all the wrong places.
 

Offline janoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2949
  • Country: fr
I have that ATTEN 858D (bought it after Dave has reviewed it) and I would really not recommend it for reworking BGAs. It is OKish for small chips but with large ones it struggles. You will scorch the board, melt everything around but the chip still won't budge because there isn't enough heat being delivered.

858D is not a bad station for the price but you do get what you pay for - basically a hair dryer with a smaller nozzle. If you want to do professional repair, better invest in a proper tool - it will save you both the time and money.

Oh, and for your own sake, do invest in fume extraction if you don't have it already - I have learned this the hard way trying to salvage some stuff from a broken laptop board. I am not sure whether it was the flux on that board or some sort of glue, but the fumes it gave off when heated by the hot air were HORRID - really nasty, acrid, chlorine/hydrogen chloride smell that made me lose my sense of smell for a while. Not fun to work on that board at all.

« Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 03:43:47 pm by janoc »
 

Offline dicky96

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 148
  • Country: es
Hey guys this all seems to have gone a down something of a diversion, but it's an entertaining diversion  :)

Trying to get back on topic...

I was always happy with my 858D hot air station - it cost me about £25 and it has earned me far more than that in return, so how could I not think my hairdryer was excellent value for money?

I sometimes use it just to preheat an area of a board then use my soldering iron to do the rework.  This works very well for me.

OK, it can't handle this BGA but that is the first time it has failed me.  I guess your opinion of whether it is junk or not all depends on what sort of work you do with it.

Someone mentioned soldering irons - I've been using one of these 60W ZD-916 for a couple years or so.  It's handles anything i wanted to do, SMD or through hole, a little preheat with the 858D sometimes proves useful on boards with heavy ground planes.  I had to fix it once (78L05 regulator behind the LCD failed) and replace the iron once (tip welded itself in and I broke the element trying to change it) but again I can't complain, it has more than paid for itself.  Do I need anything better?  Hmmm, convince me  ;)

@Rasz
You seem to suggest I should get a 'decent' hot air rework station.  I never thought of using anything other than an IR station for BGA.  Would a better hot air station make that much difference and if so what would it cost?

I'm not going to start building my own IR rework station - I would rather not try reinventing that wheel and anyway doubt I have the required skills to do that.

Having looked around a lot - something like this T890 (or something similar in the same price range) http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/T890-BGA-IRDA-Welder-Infrared-Heating-Rework-Station-UK-/262215852302?hash=item3d0d48610e:g:loQAAOxy7nNTTl6a is where I am with this, budget wise. 

£1000++  ain't gonna happen right now.

I've seen some reviews of the T890, some folk say it can desolder larger BGAs, some others say it is not powerful enough for laptop boards.  It does have stored heat profiles

So what sort of work would I likely be able to undertake with that T890 or other £400-£500 IR station?  Would it rework these IPTV boxes and similar?  What are it's limitations? What couldn't I reasonable expect to do with it?

At around £450 I may even make my money back on the investment if it can do some real work, and if it is good enough to practice and learn some skills on as well then that's good enough reason for me. 

If at this price range I am still going to end up with a pretty useless toy then I will be shelving this project for now.

OK...... over to you lot to advise ;)



« Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 09:45:15 pm by dicky96 »
 

Offline Rasz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2279
  • Country: 00
    • My random blog.
happy with my 858D hot air station
can't handle this BGA
I guess your opinion of whether it is junk or not all depends on what sort of work you do with it.

No, it was predicated on what YOU wanted to do. You are the one asking for tools to do bigger BGA chips on multilayer boards.



Having looked around a lot - something like this T890 (or something similar in the same price range) http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/T890-BGA-IRDA-Welder-Infrared-Heating-Rework-Station-UK-/262215852302?hash=item3d0d48610e:g:loQAAOxy7nNTTl6a is where I am with this, budget wise. 


might be ok for cellphone work, let us know how it worked out for you
Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
My fireplace is on fire, but in all the wrong places.
 

Offline janoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2949
  • Country: fr
I sometimes use it just to preheat an area of a board then use my soldering iron to do the rework.  This works very well for me.

OK, it can't handle this BGA but that is the first time it has failed me.  I guess your opinion of whether it is junk or not all depends on what sort of work you do with it.

Wasn't the entire point of this discussion rework and repair of boards with BGA chips?  :-//

Of course that the 858D works for other things but that's beside the point.
 

Offline dicky96

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 148
  • Country: es
Yes you're right janoc, it was mate.
I just don't think that something like the 858D that was obviously not intended for BGA work is therefore automatically junk - it has it's uses and I found it to be good at what it can do and have no complaints that it can't do this work  ;)

Hey Rasz, regards BGA rework - I actually don't think you are trying to piss on my chips here, in fact I rather like your blunt to the point attitude and opinion.

I was hoping someone had used these T890 IR stations and could give an experienced opinion on what they can do (yeah phones apparently, how about games consoles, tablets motherboards etc)

Phones I am sure could be quite profitable to repair but was not the main thrust of the direction I was interested in.  Actually I had a friendly chat with the guy at the local phone repair shop back in the UK and he actually showed me his workshop but other than a basic soldering iron I couldn't see even a rework station.  He said there wasn't much if any soldering required to fix phones - just lots of tiny screwdrivers and specific tools for swapping plug in bits.  He's been going for years so I guess he understands the market.

To stay back on topic, if the T890 isn't up to it then is there any sub £1000 soldering station that could replace those BGA I put up as an example or is it going to require more investment than that? 

In which case what is the cheapest price bracket for BGA rework stations that actually are worth buying?  And this includes being able to position the replacement BGA correctly otherwise there isn't a lot of point is there ;)

I'm sure you don't have to go £xxxxx five figure top of the range money.  Like anything else I ever looked at there must be a sliding scale of usefulness vs deminishing returns something like this

<---rubbish------usable----worth paying the extra-----overkill----willy waving>

I am still not clear on that scale, strangely enough, even after all the discussion on here. 

Cheers
Rich
 

Offline Rasz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2279
  • Country: 00
    • My random blog.
I just don't think that something like the 858D that was obviously not intended for BGA work is therefore automatically junk

its called cognitive dissonance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance, you bought it therefore it cant be that bad, you wouldnt buy something bad, you are too smart to make bad decisions.
 858 is not only junk, its also a fire and electrocution hazard.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/deadly-wiring-fault-atten-858d-hot-air-rework-station/
http://www.williamosman.com/2015/12/dangerous-wiring-fault-858d-hot-air.html
and so on

 Its the epitome of Chinese ingenuity when it comes to cost optimization. Price is the only quality that makes it useful. Btw I have one too, but I am fully aware of how crap it is :) + I have another proper one.

I was hoping someone had used these T890 IR stations and could give an experienced opinion on what they can do (yeah phones apparently, how about games consoles, tablets motherboards etc)

you would have to search Chinese repair forums. Even Russians are not desperate enough and usually build their own proper tools (just like I linked before).

Actually I had a friendly chat with the guy at the local phone repair shop back in the UK and he actually showed me his workshop but other than a basic soldering iron I couldn't see even a rework station.  He said there wasn't much if any soldering required to fix phones - just lots of tiny screwdrivers and specific tools for swapping plug in bits.  He's been going for years so I guess he understands the market.

He is probably Apple authorized aka his main service tools are shipping tape and label printer.

To stay back on topic, if the T890 isn't up to it then is there any sub £1000 soldering station that could replace those BGA I put up as an example or is it going to require more investment than that? 

desolder? sure
replace? did you know even small (its obvious for big ones) run manufacturers dont rework bigger BGA chips? they simply bin whole boards - its cheaper and easier than fixing it, even with access to $xxK equipment and experienced labour. This is why we are trying to tell you fixing $50 shitboxes is a fools errant.

In which case what is the cheapest price bracket for BGA rework stations that actually are worth buying?  And this includes being able to position the replacement BGA correctly otherwise there isn't a lot of point is there ;) 

probably couple of grand + another grand for stuff you will destroy while learning :)

Here is an idea - find the biggest cellphone/laptop repair shop in your area, beg them to hire you, learn.
Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
My fireplace is on fire, but in all the wrong places.
 

Offline dicky96

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 148
  • Country: es


In which case what is the cheapest price bracket for BGA rework stations that actually are worth buying?  And this includes being able to position the replacement BGA correctly otherwise there isn't a lot of point is there ;) 

probably couple of grand + another grand for stuff you will destroy while learning :)

Here is an idea - find the biggest cellphone/laptop repair shop in your area, beg them to hire you, learn.

Ahh now we are getting somewhere.  Thank you. So what does a couple of grand buy you that is value for money?

Regards biggest laptop repair shop in my area - go google 'Laptop Repair Gran Canaria' (that's the island I live now) and I think you will see my point.  There isn't one. Not really. OK there are a few computer shops who offer repair (they fit you a new new motherboard/ram/hdd whatever and clean up viruses) but proper laptop repair shops here - not that I know of.

There is an official apple dealership in the capital if we can call that a workshop. There is one in workshop in Vecindario (inland shopping town) who says they fix PCs and monitors., though i have never visited that one

Seen a few little electronics stores locally who will replace a cracked screen on your mobile if we want to class that as repairs.

But certainly not anything else at the south end of the island which where all the main tourism is and I am located.... maybe someone in the capital but that's an hour away and I haven't seen them advertising

This is the only computer repairer near me (AMiga Wifi) and I've met Luis and been in his workshop, it's a typical computer repair shop not an electronics workshop. http://www.wifiamiga.com/index.php/services/pc-service   

Oh come think of it there is one called CoService in Arguineguin (local working town with large norwegian expat community) but that one is also a typical computer shop and Independant Internet Provider. http://coservice.info/wordpress/   I was actually going to chat with both of these to see if I can contract any repair work they can't handle themselves (monitors for example)

This is why I feel there is a electronics repair business opportunity here going begging for someone with the right skills ;)

Rich
« Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 12:56:51 pm by dicky96 »
 

Offline RGB255_0_0

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 774
  • Country: gb


In which case what is the cheapest price bracket for BGA rework stations that actually are worth buying?  And this includes being able to position the replacement BGA correctly otherwise there isn't a lot of point is there ;) 

probably couple of grand + another grand for stuff you will destroy while learning :)

Here is an idea - find the biggest cellphone/laptop repair shop in your area, beg them to hire you, learn.

Ahh now we are getting somewhere.  Thank you. So what does a couple of grand buy you that is value for money?

Regards biggest laptop repair shop in my area - go google 'Laptop Repair Gran Canaria' (that's the island I live now) and I think you will see my point.  There isn't one. Not really. OK there are a few computer shops who offer repair (they fit you a new new motherboard/ram/hdd whatever and clean up viruses) but proper laptop repair shops here - not that I know of.

There is an official apple dealership in the capital if we can call that a workshop. There is one in workshop in Vecindario (inland shopping town) who says they fix PCs and monitors., though i have never visited that one

Seen a few little electronics stores locally who will replace a cracked screen on your mobile if we want to class that as repairs.

But certainly not anything else at the south end of the island which where all the main tourism is and I am located.... maybe someone in the capital but that's an hour away and I haven't seen them advertising

This is the only computer repairer near me (AMiga Wifi) and I've met Luis and been in his workshop, it's a typical computer repair shop not an electronics workshop. http://www.wifiamiga.com/index.php/services/pc-service   

Oh come think of it there is one called CoService in Arguineguin (local working town with large norwegian expat community) but that one is also a typical computer shop and Independant Internet Provider. http://coservice.info/wordpress/   I was actually going to chat with both of these to see if I can contract any repair work they can't handle themselves (monitors for example)

This is why I feel there is a electronics repair business opportunity here going begging for someone with the right skills ;)

Rich
The reason why you don't find "proper" computer repair shops is the same reason as given above: economics. Why would you spend 2 hours troubleshooting a fault in an old P67 board when it'd be cheaper to take an Easyjet flight to mainland Europe, buy a board, fly back and swap it in. Let alone online ordering a 70 euro mainboard.

Your TV box example may work, provided you have access to plenty of donor boards, but ordering in parts from Ali/eBay to fix a £30 STB is heroic if you're a tree hugger but won't make you a living.
Your toaster just set fire to an African child over TCP.
 

Offline Rasz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2279
  • Country: 00
    • My random blog.
Find a job in Madrid? or teach tourist snorkeling/scuba diving, it will probably pay a lot more than fixing electronics
Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
My fireplace is on fire, but in all the wrong places.
 

Offline janoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2949
  • Country: fr
He is probably Apple authorized aka his main service tools are shipping tape and label printer.

Rasz, a bit less condescending tone would help.

Not everyone does board level repair like Louis Rossmann does. That simply doesn't make sense in most cases. Fixing a Macbook or an iPhone can be profitable, given that those are expensive devices.

But a common $200 smartphone? Most of these shops only swap parts - displays, batteries, cracked cases. That's 99% of the repairs, the more advanced places will be able to resolder cracked solder joints on a charging connector. That's the maximum you will see, both because anything more requires advanced skills and also because nobody would pay $200-$300 for fixing a $200 water damaged phone. You don't need much beyond a screwdriver kit and a cheap hot air station for that. Have one guy like this at the local supermarket here - he doesn't even have a soldering iron in his booth.

« Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 02:00:58 pm by janoc »
 

Offline dicky96

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 148
  • Country: es
Quote
The reason why you don't find "proper" computer repair shops is the same reason as given above: economics. Why would you spend 2 hours troubleshooting a fault in an old P67 board when it'd be cheaper to take an Easyjet flight to mainland Europe, buy a board, fly back and swap it in. Let alone online ordering a 70 euro mainboard.

Your TV box example may work, provided you have access to plenty of donor boards, but ordering in parts from Ali/eBay to fix a £30 STB is heroic if you're a tree hugger but won't make you a living.

I do understand where you are coming from because I have experience of this myself.

Long short story...  but it does end up back on topic

When I got my qualifications in electronics repair back in the early 80s I was taught to repair to component level (TVs and Videos)  Some even still had valves in them!

My first job as an electronics repair engineer was with ICL and guess what - we were repairing computer PCBs to component level.  While working there they paid for me to take a two year part time course in microprocessor circuit design and programming at the local university.  After a few years break from electronics to work as a computer programmer I went back into electronics repair - working on industrial control electronics. 

This was interesting and challenging job! In many cases you would have to reverse engineer a board with no schematics, build a test rig, sometimes microprocessor based, or at least program an eprom in assembly language to make the DUT do 'something' so you could test the peripheral ICs etc. And this was working from component datasheets only. Bear in mind there was no such thing as the internet then  ;)  This is also where I really learned to repair SMPS properly, which had a lot more complexity and discrete components in the early 90s

After that I went self employed building and repairing PCs.  This was in the first half of the 90s.  Now when we were repairing PCs at my computer shop, yes, we were just swapping boards Ram Processors etc and I thoroughly understand the economics of this.  We were however repairing monitors (CRT ones of course) AT & ATX PSUs and things like Commodore Amiga computers to component level. 

On one occasion I got my hands on a large job lot (a transit van full!) of faulty Amiga PSUs and Modulators from one of the big UK distributors. I don't recall what I paid or if they even just said 'come and get them' but it was not very much even if I did pay something. That proved very profitable to repair and resell - for a while we were the cheapest sellers in the country in the computer magazines of the time. 

Another chance meeting with a trader at an amateur radio and electronics fair got me a contact who could get scrap from a big official Dell repair centre in Telford England - but he had no idea what to do with it other than dump it on the radio rally circuit.  Within weeks I was buying everything he could get, running vans every couple of weeks to load up with scrap for a couple hundred quid a van full.  Over a few months this got to be 7.5 ton trucks every week or two and I eventually had a larger warehouse/workshop near to the computer shop, two full time engineers working with me fixing this 'scrap' to component level and hey, we were turning over a very profitable business!

Unfortunately after a year or two 'corporate politics' got in the way and the supply of scrap dried up - but the point is the component level repair business was really profitable.

This takes us into the 2000s.  Having got out of the PC business around 2002 when it seemed the boom was over, then running various other businesses basically installing AV equipment in clubs and bars, and having nothing to do with electronics repair for years other than solder the occasional connection, in the 2010s the I found the business had 'morphed' I was doing a lot of equipment rentals to the pub trade and had a lot of time on my hands while the main business pretty much ran itself - and I started buying spares or repair stuff of ebay or scrounging broken stuff off pub customers - mostly DJ and band equipment, lasers, intelligent disco lighting etc.  And started fixing it to component level for profit.  Though I only ever did this on a part time basis it was certainly very profitable generating £000's a year in my spare time

So that brings me to now I guess.  Dismayed with the political direction my native country is now taking I decided I could not reconcile myself with that and the only reasonable response was to give up and leave them to it. ;) At least I (with the missus) brought net migration down by two lol

So here I am in Gran Canaria and need to make some money so I'm doing some repair work, mostly TVs at the moment - to component level - and making some money from that.  Too soon to say if it will be profitable enough.

Recently someone asked me to look at a USB 1TByte hard drive.  After a quick diagnosis it turned out it had a short circuit on the 5V rail.  I asked the owner if it was worth the cost of repair and they said 'I could easily get a new drive but I could never replace the data on that one'. 

I fixed a few HDDs back in the day and anyway tracing a short circuit on a HDD controller board is about the same as doing it on anything else.  Actually I got a replacement second hand controller card first, was going to desolder the bios and fit it to the new card, then replace it.  But at the last minute I decided to properly trace the fault for the experience of working on dense miniature SMD stuff. It was a short circuit SMD capacitor near the motor driver chip and it was soon working again, data intact - plus I have a spare donor board for future use maybe. 

The owner was over the moon to get his drive and data back and that component level repair turned to be more lucrative than the TV repairs, he even paid me over the quoted price as a 'tip' :)

This got me into researching more about HDD repairs, which led me to badcaps forum and to here - researching about motherboard and laptop repairs.  In turn I then found Louis Rossman's videos. This was something of an eye opener as I never really considered those sort of things to be repairable any more.

So yes I have years of experience of repair work as a full time and part time business - both running a computer shop building, upgrading and 'repairing by board swapping' PCs (profitable) and component level repair (profitable). 

Now I'm wondering what the local computer 'repair' shops here are doing with all their scrap boards PSUs and drives....   I return to the UK regularly so could also bring some 'junk' back with me.

As it appears to be the common opinion that this is most likely an unprofitable venture (my past experience tells me otherwise so I just need to discover for myself), and very few apparently do this sort of work anyway as it is not economically viable, I guess that is why no one here really has the experience to say what BGA repair station at what price is really capable of what repair work?

Rich
« Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 05:06:28 pm by dicky96 »
 
The following users thanked this post: Dave3

Offline Armadillo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1725
  • Country: 00
I guess that is why no one here really has the experience to say what BGA repair station at what price is really capable of what repair work?
Rich
:-+ You nailed it Rich, that should keep empty vessels quite for a while and save me from reading so many off-subject nonsense  :clap: thanks.
 

Offline RGB255_0_0

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 774
  • Country: gb
I was going to reply to Janoc's post earlier that Jessa and Louis will often do repairs for data recovery, not necessarily to reuse the device. But you also found this out: it is the only economical repair. Or Macbook motherboards. But when watching Louis curse for 15 minutes attempting an SMC replacement gets old quick, and I'd imagine anyone relying on maybe-not-so-kosher replacements, and start to regret getting into that line of work.

Louis even did a video about getting AMD GPUs from Ali that turned out to be faked. There are far too many trap doors when working with Apple stuff especially.

Back to data recovery. You're in a holiday-centric economy. People probably drop their phones into the pool or what have you. They probably would use your service. But if you're only on holiday for a week and you're leaving in 2 days and you can't guaranteed it'd be done by then, there is no reason for them to use you. So you need to get repairs done quick, or rely on locals or seasonal visitors who stay for the northern winter.

You're hesitant to want to shell out on quality equipment - you're clearly not confident you can make money. You're better off being a distributor for TV STBs and maybe repair for refurb than thinking you can get away with just repairing.
Your toaster just set fire to an African child over TCP.
 

Offline janoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2949
  • Country: fr
I was going to reply to Janoc's post earlier that Jessa and Louis will often do repairs for data recovery, not necessarily to reuse the device. But you also found this out: it is the only economical repair. Or Macbook motherboards. But when watching Louis curse for 15 minutes attempting an SMC replacement gets old quick, and I'd imagine anyone relying on maybe-not-so-kosher replacements, and start to regret getting into that line of work.

Also keep in mind that they work only on Apple devices where both parts are somewhat available and people are willing to pay for the data from the phone. Cheap Android phones usually have SD cards, so should it get water damaged, there isn't that much interest to do data recovery - the card will likely still work.

Both Louis and Jessa said very explicitly why they aren't taking anything but Apple hw for repair.
 

Offline dicky96

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 148
  • Country: es
.

You're hesitant to want to shell out on quality equipment - you're clearly not confident you can make money. You're better off being a distributor for TV STBs and maybe repair for refurb than thinking you can get away with just repairing.

Actually there you have me wrong -  I am not hesitant in investing money in the right (quality) equipment - I'm struggling to understand  what is the right and what is the wrong equipment  :-\

rich
 

Offline Rasz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2279
  • Country: 00
    • My random blog.
shots fired :scared:

I guess that is why no one here really has the experience to say what BGA repair station at what price is really capable of what repair work?

no, its because you said couple of hundred for the tools to fix $50 shitboxes
Want some tool models listed that badly? Here you go, I personally worked on
-IR PRO SC, >thousand euro for chinese piece of shit almost made in a garage by blind children using random bits from aliexpres($50 and $20 off the shelf temp controllers etc), broke 2 times, dead first time (bad connection), second time wouldnt disengage preheater = scorched whole pcb while every component swam away. You can build something like this at 1/3 the price using exact same elements + it wouldnt die on you because chinese child was too weak to crimp wires properly. In fact 2 of the 3 DIY systems I linked to earlier are using EXACT same parts as this one (Altec PC410, REX C100), <$300 + labour.
-Jovy 8500, was trouble free.

Both had no problem with ps3, laptops, graphic cards. If you see a rework station with work area <30x30cm and/or <1500W its meant for phones/tablets.

if fx951 is too expensive at 250 you can buy $100 Quick 202D, excellent quality and its Induction ~like super expensive OKi/Metcals (older 400Khz systems, obviously not the 13MHz ones), except it uses thermocouple instead of curie point.
hotair already told you exact model to get - Quick 861
I also heard good things about Quick 2035, Quick is very popular in my area due to surprisingly good quality at chinese prices.

so there, here is your ~$2000 rope :)
Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
My fireplace is on fire, but in all the wrong places.
 

Offline RGB255_0_0

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 774
  • Country: gb
.

You're hesitant to want to shell out on quality equipment - you're clearly not confident you can make money. You're better off being a distributor for TV STBs and maybe repair for refurb than thinking you can get away with just repairing.

Actually there you have me wrong -  I am not hesitant in investing money in the right (quality) equipment - I'm struggling to understand  what is the right and what is the wrong equipment  :-\

rich
Rasz has already gone through all the rigamarole.

Really there is no real true right or wrong because it depends on the board you're working on: how much thermal mass; how quickly heat is drawn away from work area. Sometimes you can get away with preheating at a slightly higher temp, other times you will damage connectors.

You want to get the chip of quickly and without risking damage to the pads so you don't cause damage.

At the end of the day YMMV with the cheap end, but has a far higher chance of succeeding properly with known quality, branded equipment.
Your toaster just set fire to an African child over TCP.
 

Offline dicky96

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 148
  • Country: es
At last some real info that I can use

The Jovy 8500 I can get in UK, it ain't cheap but it ain't stupidly expensive either and I even get 4hrs free training if I go down to London for the day and pick it up in person which saves postage :)  If I fly direct from here it would cost me nothing extra to do that

Still don't know how to align replacement BGA chips though without one of those fancy optical trickery things like I saw on Louis video and others and I don't see that on the Jovy unless it is an accessory.  Do I need one?

At least now I have a good idea of what I need

A little more advice required on alignment techniques?  Yes i know I am being a PITA but I want to get this right

Cheers
Rich



« Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 10:39:18 pm by dicky96 »
 

Offline Rasz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2279
  • Country: 00
    • My random blog.
as said earlier
+ another grand for stuff you will destroy while learning

thats what dropping $8K on Zhuomao gets you, or $5K on LY("manufacturer" of IR PRO SC) copy of Zhuomao
or $400 diy, but you dont want that
+even 8K machine wont save you from frying components while learning to make profiles/using wrong ones from manufacturer
Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
My fireplace is on fire, but in all the wrong places.
 

Offline Armadillo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1725
  • Country: 00
as said earlier
+ another grand for stuff you will destroy while learning

thats what dropping $8K on Zhuomao gets you, or $5K on LY("manufacturer" of IR PRO SC) copy of Zhuomao
or $400 diy, but you dont want that
+even 8K machine wont save you from frying components while learning to make profiles/using wrong ones from manufacturer

$400 DIY, and I think you will still go thru the cheap craps routes he experienced through.
For example the Heating core like the soldering iron TIPs, is one of the key components of BGA station. For those kids sets or DIY, you will end up using those cheap core and temperature controllers, unqualified data, with poor thermal distribution and with higher failure rates that will cost you "another S$1000" to learn to compromise with the machine. Higher Ends machine uses the mixed flow system instead of core heater. Below some pictures of the elements that needs very constant spare parts replacements. Quality ones are the ceramic core [high static loss] or the german type core that will guarantee to last longer. Good machine, manufacturer always offer training and demonstration and warranty. In my area, those kind of prices already included computer controller with touch screen, video camera, display and optical alignment features. And so we are talking about this end of the BGA rework station, kind of manual heater machine.



« Last Edit: May 06, 2017, 03:28:58 am by Armadillo »
 

Offline Rasz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2279
  • Country: 00
    • My random blog.
$400 DIY, and I think you will still go thru the cheap craps routes he experienced through.
For example the Heating core like the soldering iron TIPs, is one of the key components of BGA station. For those kids sets or DIY, you will end up using those cheap core and temperature controllers, unqualified data, with poor thermal distribution and with higher failure rates that will cost you "another S$1000" to learn to compromise with the machine. Higher Ends machine uses the mixed flow system instead of core heater. Below some pictures of the elements that needs very constant spare parts replacements. Quality ones are the ceramic core [high static loss] or the german type core that will guarantee to last longer. Good machine, manufacturer always offer training and demonstration and warranty. In my area, those kind of prices already included computer controller with touch screen, video camera, display and optical alignment features. And so we are talking about this end of the BGA rework station, kind of manual heater machine.

we are talking about IR systems here
https://diolut.pl/grzalka-do-stacji-ir-ir-pro-sc-gorna-450w-p-4047.html
https://diolut.pl/grzalka-ir-ceramiczna-600w-do-stacji-bga-podgrzewacz-24x6-cm-p-4452.html
Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
My fireplace is on fire, but in all the wrong places.
 

Offline Deus

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 25
  • Country: be
@dicky96: Hope you didn't buy any of those T-xxx machines? (Sorry, didn't see this thread before).
Read this first maybe, hope it can help you a bit:

Hot Air (HA) vs IR, some thoughts on it.
----------------------------------------

This is about BGA rework MACHINES, not HA guns.
They might be ok for small pcbs/chips, forget them for serious BGA rework.

This article is a compilation of my thoughts/experiences and chats/posts with/from others about BGA rework.
I'm nt a scientiest, no scientific research or explication for it, but did a lot of testing.
Might be a bit messy to read, as much is copy/paste from old and newer posts and questions answered by me.
Comments between *** are thaughts/experiences added later instead of rewriting article, to keep it as complete as possible.


Hot air is better controllable, faster profiles possible.
*** What's meant here I think is going faster with HA is a bit lesse of a risk for some components compared to IR.
       After modding my machine, think my machine can go even faster compared to HA, physically I mean, not that it's wise to do.
       You also have to follow some standards/profiles to prevent components getting fried ***
HA Needs different nozzles for different sizes of chips.
With HA You need to create a profile per chip/board/nozzle, while doing that you use a "control" TC *(ThermoCouple) to check the result.
(The "control TC" only controls the temp at that point, no feedback to the controls of the machine).
Once it's working and tuned, you use that profile for that specific board.
In theory, no need for the "control" TC anymore (athough it's never a bad idea to check in case it goes wrong).
The profile is controlled with the TCs in the hot air heads.
And one for the IR preheather offcourse.
Also consider a 3 zone uses IR for preaheat and top and bottom HA for the profile.
Depending PCB mass, profile/preheat, heat can still be drawn awy from PCB BGA zone.
Where a 2 zone machine, like IR and some HA, heats up bottom more evenly.
This also means the whole bottom get's a higher temp, where on a 3 zone temps outside bga zones can be lower = lesser stress for the components.

With IR you can rework all sizes of chips without nozzles.
IR profiles usually are longer, as at start it heats up slower.
You should in fact take into account your "real" profile only starts once preheat reaches 60-80C.
*** Also depends  on the used controls and heaters like short medium or low wave and fast or slow heating elements.
       Might apply to 3 Zone HA (Hot Air) machines too if they use slow ir preheaters that needs to warm up first. ***

A big different compared with hot air is IR rework stations use a closed loop system with active feedback to the controller.

With a 2 zone IR you have 2 controls, 1 for the the preheater (bottom) and 1 for the top heater.
Mostly the bottom heater only preheates the pcb to a set temp controlled by a TC and keeps it at that setting, no profile.
The TC measures the temp, reports back to controller, until settings are reached.
The top heater uses a programmable ramp/set/dwel controller to run the profile. Same principle, TC reports back.
The profile for the BGA is controlled by the TC in real time by real pcb temps on top of the PCB  close to the BGA.
This means, depending controller and using some functions correctly, with IR You might even need only a few profiles
for all boards, say for thin/thick, low/hig mass.
No need for a nozzle helps too.
(Remeber, with HA the controller controls the air, heating it up, which results to a certain temp on the pcb/bga for only
  that specific board and nozzle as the "control TC" doesn't report anything back to this process to adjust air temps.)

IR is harder to control and shouldn't be used the same as HA.
*** Most of the time temp only has to go up untill solder liquidus, so not really a problem.
       But with wrong settings or profile, you might get overshoot and there is also the mas of the elements.
       HA is "active", air flowing over element prevent this more probably.
       For me, it's not a problem, can control it pretty fine, will post some pics later ***
I wrote about this in the past. *** (Conptrol with IR) ***
It was about using radiation more instead of usig the element's heat, giving more convection heat.
If you understand that, it can become very useful.
Using radiation (element further above object) instead of convection (heat of the element if to close to object) can give you much better control.
However, it has a steeper learning curve and you will destroy a few more chips in the beginning probably.
*** In fact, 2 zone IR is more straight forward compared to 3 zone HA, for both learning might cost you, but some chips are more sensitive  for IR.
       Like the old PS3 RSX BGAs, IR gives a slightly more risc for solder bleeding. BUT... this can just al wel happen with HA.
       It all depends on your profiles. See also comment below ***

As said, with IR you can rework all sizes of chips without nozzles.
Or larger areas in 1 go, can be handy too.
Like say you want to take off (small) components from a pcb for later use.
Put it on your IR, fire it up.
Once solder is melting, take off what you need.
Starting top first.
But don't forget heating a specific are to long can destroy components in that area too.
Done a certain area? Move the heater or pcb, start picking the next components.

If you want to take off trough hole, once all on top is removed, set your bottom heater to higher temps so bottom solder melts.
And you can take of elcos, sockets or whatever in a jiff.
It can rework plastics without problems, was a big + years ago.
Most plastics used now are suited for lead free temps, so mostly not a problem with HA either anymore.

Once you mastered IR, it can do a pretty good job.
But as said before, might have to be a bit more carefull on some chips.
Especially on first gen xbox 360 (popcorn), PS3 RSX = solderbleeding etc.
This might have been a problem of the transition from lead to lead free, recent chips seem to be able to stand more now.
You can influence these problems by using e.g. kapton on reflective parts, or reflecting tape to protect sensitive components from higher temps.
Or adjusting your profiles or using it manually, it does everything hot air can do.
I also think, but that is my opinion, can be wrong on this, beeing a bit more carefull and slower results often in "better" reflows.
With this I mean all balls, from middle to outside, fully liquidus.
Not saying HA can't, as said, might be wrong, and as I don't have hot air can't speak from experience.
But it looks like reflow returns are higher on HA then on IR, also reported from someone switching from IR to HA.
But he prefers his HA machine as it never gives him problems and he only places new chips.

When starting BGA rework myself, hot air was to expensive.
IR machines are much easier to fabricate.
That's probably why they were offered much cheaper and bought more, only for the price.
If cheaper, I would've gone for hot air probably myself.
Do I regret now I got an IR machine?
ABSOLUTELY NOT!
Love my IR machine, but it's modded heavily.
If I would buy one now would I go for HA?
Dunno, for the same money, I would probably build my own IR machine using quality components only.

Again, don't have a hot air BGA rework machine myself.
It's my experience with IR and what I collected by reading, reading posts, chatting, voice communication etc with people and their experiences about/with HA.

Also helped a friend with a HA machine (Shutle Star)to get his profiles right.
He had probs in the beginning too with solder bleeding sometimes, rarely popcorning.
However, once his profiles were tweaked he never had that problem anymore.

Only want to say when one starts with this, even with hot air, you can/probably will destroy some chips setting up your profiles.
But it does seem to have lesser probs with HA.

With IR however, even if your profile works without problems mostly, it can still happen suddenly.
Why, who knows? Condition of the chip? Has it been raped before maybe? etc...
*** Popcorn is moisture related.
       Drying/baking PCBs/BGAs/Components should prevent most of popcorning/delamination.
       You should get an oven (DIY works ok) for this as soon as you start BGA rework.
       Most reballers wil tell you "no need to bake, I never do it, never had problems" wich might be true.
       But say you get something with a 1000$+ FPGA on it, would you risk to popcorn it if baking it for a few hours might prevent this? ***

Here some profile graphs using my IR setup:
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 10:14:39 am by Deus »
 

Offline chhrisedwards

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 19
  • Country: us
Re: BGA replacement - what equipment and tools do I need for reliable results?
« Reply #53 on: November 22, 2017, 02:16:07 pm »
The BGA Replacement and the soldering of BGA chips is not so complex task but earlier I think it was too difficult. If you desire reliable result and to know about various BGA Replacement equipments just go through this link http://www.solder.net/services/bga-rework-services/
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf