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Electronics => Repair => Topic started by: SAUL BRITTO on February 27, 2016, 03:18:11 am

Title: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on February 27, 2016, 03:18:11 am
Tektronix 2220? I observed a sinewave of LG tv board that has 24 MHZ oscillator
 and 24 mhz was enough to  almost don't see  well the signal it was very tight. I did need to use X10 resource on the HP and on the tektronix 2220.Seems the full range of these scopes are divided in two steps,or it is a mistake? pardon my ignorance.
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: tggzzz on February 27, 2016, 09:58:44 am
Tektronix 2220? I observed a sinewave of LG tv board that has 24 MHZ oscillator
 and 24 mhz was enough to  almost don't see  well the signal it was very tight. I did need to use X10 resource on the HP and on the tektronix 2220.Seems the full range of these scopes are divided in two steps,or it is a mistake? pardon my ignorance.

What do you mean "works"? Do you mean "use the timebase" or "internal operation of the tiembase"?

If you mean "use the timebase", then you need to produce a better definition of your problem, including the position of all controls and preferable a picture of the trace.

I have no idea what you might mean by "full range of these scopes are divided in two steps". My hp1740 has 23 steps (if I counted correctly).
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: rf+tech on February 27, 2016, 07:32:58 pm
What Saul is referring to is the difference between main sweep and delayed sweep, that appear to him as two ranges. I no longer have an older scope with delayed sweep but seem to remember that there is a mechanical limit imposed upon main sweep when delayed sweep is lengthened. When delayed is set to 5 us/div then main sweep cannot be set faster.

24 MHz sine wave has a period of 41.67 nanoseconds. The fastest sweep of 50 nanoseconds/div should display 12 full cycles without the need to use 10X magnification.

@Saul, set the outer delayed sweep ring index mark to full clockwise stop (50 ns/div). It should now be possible to advance the inner main sweep to the full clockwise stop (50 ns/div).

RF+ Tech
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on February 27, 2016, 10:37:50 pm
@Saul, set the outer delayed sweep ring index mark to full clockwise stop (50 ns/div). It should now be possible to advance the inner main sweep to the full clockwise stop (50 ns/div).

Yes,I did it but, I just think that the 24 MHZ 1/4 of full scale of a 100 MHZ scope,be so tight...

Thank you.
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on February 27, 2016, 10:43:21 pm
That way when I measure 80MHz'll just have something using X10.
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on February 27, 2016, 11:29:54 pm
rf+tech look at this: (http://i66.tinypic.com/33nyd02.jpg)

Is it normal? It is at full scale in main sweep, at 24mhz.
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: tggzzz on February 28, 2016, 12:49:25 am
Is it normal? It is at full scale in main sweep, at 24mhz.
Since we don't know what you are probing, and since Chan1 and the timebase are both in the "uncalibrated" mode, who knows.

I suggest you turn the chan1 LED off using the  Chan1 cal pot, and the timebase LED off using the "sweep vernier" pot. If you are still having problems, post another picture and state what you would expect to be the displayed.
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on February 28, 2016, 01:43:15 am
Is it normal? It is at full scale in main sweep, at 24mhz.
Since we don't know what you are probing, and since Chan1 and the timebase are both in the "uncalibrated" mode, who knows.

I suggest you turn the chan1 LED off using the  Chan1 cal pot, and the timebase LED off using the "sweep vernier" pot. If you are still having problems, post another picture and state what you would expect to be the displayed.

I noticed that  a 100mhz scope at 1/4 of your capacity is showing a sinewave  as if almost the end of  it's main time base.This signal that you see is a sinewave at 24 mhz with the timebase at .05 uSeg.
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: rf+tech on February 28, 2016, 01:54:05 am
Saul,

When the timebase LED is on, the scope does not sweep at 50 ns/div. The sweep is slower and uncalibrated. I count 17.5 cycles of 24 MHz.
1/24e6 = 41.67 ns/cycle
17.5 x 41.67 = 729 ns total sweep time
729 ns / 10 divisions = 72.9 ns/div
Can you now see why the sweep is uncalibrated?

The same applies to the vertical amplifiers.

Quote
I just think that the 24 MHZ 1/4 of full scale of a 100 MHZ scope,be so tight...

Does full scale refer to horizontal scale or vertical scale? My interpretation is horizontal since the 10X magnifier is needed to see the individual cycles of 24 MHz.

To display 80 MHz across 10 divisions:
1/80e6 = 12.5e-9 = 12.5 ns per cycle
50 ns per division = 500 ns per sweep
500 ns per sweep / 12.5 ns per cycle =  40 cycles across 10 divisions

To clearly see the individual cycles requires faster sweep.

An important detail to consider: the stated bandwidth of a scope is that of the vertical deflection system. The horizontal deflection is less. For the HP1740A the horizontal deflection bandwidth is 5 MHz. At 50 ns/div x 10 divisions, the effective frequency is only 2 MHz.

RF+ Tech
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on February 28, 2016, 02:26:18 am
Oh thank you guys. But how to put off this led? I understand  many concepts about scopes and anothers I need help.
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on February 28, 2016, 02:30:28 am
OK I did it, Is like V CAL.

by tggzzz commentary I figured out that the vernier sweep of this scope is not working.
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on February 28, 2016, 02:52:23 am
Does full scale refer to horizontal scale or vertical scale? My interpretation is horizontal since the 10X magnifier is needed to see the individual cycles of 24 MHz.

Yes rf+tech, is horizontal.

And my question is: it's normal a 100mHZ oscilloscope don't show a individual cycle of a 24 mHZ
sinewave,since it is at 1/4 of your capacity?
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: rf+tech on February 28, 2016, 03:05:27 am
Saul,

Quote
by tggzzz commentary I figured out that the vernier sweep of this scope is not working.

Now that the sweep is "calibrated", 24 MHz should show 12 cycles across at 50 ns/div. Is this correct? If not correct and the error is large, then the vernier not working may be the cause for the large error.

RF+ Tech
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on February 28, 2016, 03:18:42 am
Ok sweep vernier working,was just a bad contact in a eight pins connector. A bit of w├╝rth spray  solved the problem!
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on February 28, 2016, 03:20:13 am
Rf+tech I will count the cycles.
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on February 28, 2016, 03:35:13 am
(http://i64.tinypic.com/2agn9g6.jpg)

Image after sweep vernier fix.
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on February 28, 2016, 04:25:31 am
rf+tech this is a signal of 1.5 KHZ 2Vpp T/DIV .2 ms.

(http://i66.tinypic.com/29wvj94.jpg)
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on February 28, 2016, 05:52:11 am
Looking this same signal at the tek 2220 at 0.5 ms it fits exactly inside each graticule on the gridd of screen,how can I adjust the 1740A to the same condiction? I see that it is not right.
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: rf+tech on February 28, 2016, 02:00:50 pm
Saul,

Please do this simple calculation:

Period = 1 / Frequency

How much error exists between the measurement and the calculation?

RF+ Tech
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on February 28, 2016, 08:51:36 pm
I did it= 0,000666667 In this image I am at 1,5 KHZ if period = 1/1500= 0.000666667  Sorry I AM HORRIBLE WITH MATH.



Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on February 28, 2016, 09:14:26 pm
On my super donkey vision are 6 errors. Maybe 7.
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: tggzzz on February 28, 2016, 09:14:59 pm
Not "having" arithmetic is a problem.

And it is time (seconds, s)  not conductance  (Siemens, S) .
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on February 28, 2016, 09:30:18 pm
Thank you tggzzz
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on February 28, 2016, 11:29:35 pm
rf+tech I count at 24 MHZ .05us 12 cycles but I will to post a new photo.
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on February 29, 2016, 03:28:05 am
F= 1/T = 1/0.00005=20000
1/20000= 0.00005us
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on February 29, 2016, 03:58:18 am
New photo that I think has 12 cycles:
(http://i67.tinypic.com/2ezl75j.jpg)
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: rf+tech on February 29, 2016, 04:10:51 am
Saul,

The photo actually shows 12.5 cycles across 10 divisions.

Look at the time marks at the arrows added to your photo.

RF+ Tech
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on February 29, 2016, 04:11:41 am
rf+tech about that your equation I did P= V.t
P= 24000000 x 0.00005= 1200 is it right? IF IT IS NOT RIGHT I see at least a 12 ratio,then on the anterior image there is an error of 5 cycles to more. Right?
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on February 29, 2016, 04:15:15 am
Saul,

The photo actually shows 12.5 cycles across 10 divisions.

Look at the time marks at the arrows added to your photo.

RF+ Tech

Then I have to count that half cycle on the begin and on the end,how can I fix this rf+tech?
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on February 29, 2016, 04:18:08 am
Looks like after the sweep vernier fix it is a bit better.
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on February 29, 2016, 05:35:10 am
I  am reading about this calibration but I still don't have a time marker,can I fix this problem with frequency counter and a good function generator?
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: rf+tech on March 01, 2016, 03:31:43 pm
Saul,

Before jumping into sweep calibration, it is best to know some details about the accuracy of available signals.

What is the source of the 24 MHz signal? How accurate is this signal? Is it crystal controlled?

And the same about your function generator - how accurate is this? Is it synthesized or free running? Do you have a frequency counter?

Also, I see from your posts that you are having difficulty measuring time with an oscilloscope. What is to the left of the first vertical line is not counted.

Go back to the 24 MHz signal as shown in the photo with red arrows.
Position the bottom peak of the first cycle exactly on the first vertical display line.
Move the vertical position up so the bottom peaks are on the center line.
Count 12 bottom peaks and read the scale.
From the photo, this looks like 9.5 or 9.6 divisions.
How many divisions do you measure?
Now turn the sweep vernier from right to left.
Do you see many more cycles?
Turn the sweep vernier to the right (CAL position).
Does bottom peak 12 return to the same position?

RF+ Tech
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on March 01, 2016, 10:47:55 pm
Ok I will do it.
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on March 02, 2016, 12:24:54 am
Saul,

Before jumping into sweep calibration, it is best to know some details about the accuracy of available signals.

What is the source of the 24 MHz signal? How accurate is this signal? Is it crystal controlled?

And the same about your function generator - how accurate is this? Is it synthesized or free running? Do you have a frequency counter?

Also, I see from your posts that you are having difficulty measuring time with an oscilloscope. What is to the left of the first vertical line is not counted.

Go back to the 24 MHz signal as shown in the photo with red arrows.
Position the bottom peak of the first cycle exactly on the first vertical display line.
Move the vertical position up so the bottom peaks are on the center line.
Count 12 bottom peaks and read the scale.
From the photo, this looks like 9.5 or 9.6 divisions.
How many divisions do you measure?
Now turn the sweep vernier from right to left.
Do you see many more cycles?
Turn the sweep vernier to the right (CAL position).
Does bottom peak 12 return to the same position?

RF+ Tech

Yes it is a crystal controlled oscillator.
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on March 02, 2016, 12:30:01 am
I have done these adjustments and got it better,but when a change the sweep time see small differences:
http://i65.tinypic.com/2z80vp3.jpg (http://i65.tinypic.com/2z80vp3.jpg)
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on March 02, 2016, 12:36:37 am
1uSEC  I use 1mhz, 10uSEC 100KHZ and so on but,when I change the time to a near time I see that it does not keep completely stable there is a small difference
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on March 02, 2016, 01:13:08 am
I'm dabbing ice with this FG.
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on March 02, 2016, 03:15:54 am
I figure out my FG is deffective,seems a PS problem.
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on March 02, 2016, 03:45:11 am
Bingo! A cap in leackage and that a leakage wow!!!
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on March 02, 2016, 03:55:14 am
rf+tech what is the nomenclature for trigger offset on the HP scopes?
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on March 02, 2016, 09:13:27 am
rf+tech I have new photos and show you later.
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on March 02, 2016, 09:17:59 am
I have done some comparisons with a tek 2220 that I have on the bench and they are very very near.
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: tggzzz on March 02, 2016, 09:23:18 am
Saul, you might find https://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/library-2/good-questions-pique-our-interest-and-dont-waste-our-time-2/ (https://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/library-2/good-questions-pique-our-interest-and-dont-waste-our-time-2/) helps you in the long term. Not all of the points apply to you, of course!

Do keep asking good questions. But this forum isn't twitter (as in https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=define:twit (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=define:twit) ).
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on March 02, 2016, 10:36:44 am
I apologize if I made a mistake or bothered in any way but, I'm new in the forum and really need some warnings. But, how to discuss an issue?
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: tggzzz on March 02, 2016, 11:04:53 am
I apologize if I made a mistake or bothered in any way but, I'm new in the forum and really need some warnings. But, how to discuss an issue?
No problem at all; no apologies necessary. You are honestly trying to learn, and that is good. The reason for pointing to that link is to help you get better answers.

Minor point: learn how to use the "quote" button, so people can understand what you are replying to.

More important point: think before posting, and where appropriate follow some of the guidelines noted on that page. Note that I don't always follow them!
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on March 02, 2016, 11:25:06 am
I apologize if I made a mistake or bothered in any way but, I'm new in the forum and really need some warnings. But, how to discuss an issue?
No problem at all; no apologies necessary. You are honestly trying to learn, and that is good. The reason for pointing to that link is to help you get better answers.

Minor point: learn how to use the "quote" button, so people can understand what you are replying to.

More important point: think before posting, and where appropriate follow some of the guidelines noted on that page. Note that I don't always follow them!

Thank you for your advice, was not my intention to cause this kind of event. I will be ever grateful when you advice me about my fails. I confess that I am still a little confused about the right way to act in the forum, will try to improve every day.
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: tggzzz on March 02, 2016, 03:54:31 pm
I apologize if I made a mistake or bothered in any way but, I'm new in the forum and really need some warnings. But, how to discuss an issue?
No problem at all; no apologies necessary. You are honestly trying to learn, and that is good. The reason for pointing to that link is to help you get better answers.

Minor point: learn how to use the "quote" button, so people can understand what you are replying to.

More important point: think before posting, and where appropriate follow some of the guidelines noted on that page. Note that I don't always follow them!

Thank you for your advice, was not my intention to cause this kind of event. I will be ever grateful when you advice me about my fails. I confess that I am still a little confused about the right way to act in the forum, will try to improve every day.

As I told my daughter, "let's make new mistakes".

Do continue posting and asking questions!
Title: Re: Can anybody explain me really how do works the time base of HP scopes 1740A and
Post by: SAUL BRITTO on March 02, 2016, 11:36:30 pm
I apologize if I made a mistake or bothered in any way but, I'm new in the forum and really need some warnings. But, how to discuss an issue?
No problem at all; no apologies necessary. You are honestly trying to learn, and that is good. The reason for pointing to that link is to help you get better answers.

Minor point: learn how to use the "quote" button, so people can understand what you are replying to.

More important point: think before posting, and where appropriate follow some of the guidelines noted on that page. Note that I don't always follow them!

Thank you for your advice, was not my intention to cause this kind of event. I will be ever grateful when you advice me about my fails. I confess that I am still a little confused about the right way to act in the forum, will try to improve every day.

As I told my daughter, "let's make new mistakes".

Do continue posting and asking questions!
  :-DD

Ok thx.