Electronics > Repair
Charging by the hour is unfair!
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shabaz:

--- Quote from: PlainName on July 06, 2024, 03:15:56 pm ---I wonder if those 'explaining' that an hourly rate is the only way to do business might be in the camp that abhors the switch from one-off fee for a perpetual license to a subscription model for software.

--- End quote ---


--- Quote ---"In software the developer spends time and money on something they hope will attract buyers, but it may not and they will then make a loss after all that effort."

--- End quote ---

No. That's not how products (hardware or software) are normally developed. You're focussing on some 'flying by the seat of your pants' way of working that only a tiny amount of orgs will use.

Every single thing a (reputable) business does is (ultimately) customer-focused. It has nothing to do with 'passing the risk' to the customer. You might be surprised to learn that subscription models work great for many customers. If it doesn't work well for someone, then that customer should not have been sold that particular product. You don't foist unwanted products or pricing models on your customers; you won't last long in that business if you do.

And, getting back roughly on point, it's a fallacy to think that customers feel they are being unfairly treated or receiving no benefit from a diagnosis or expert opinion if a repair is found to be not possible.

There are bad bargains to be had everywhere if you look for it. Read the terms, decide if you're comfortable doing business with someone, and then proceed on that basis. If you feel you didn't get what was contracted, then you can take them to court.

Even if say a lawyer is qualified, it doesn't mean they are any good. There are things that one could do, such as ask how long they have been practicing law or practicing repair, or ask others for feedback (TrustPilot etc) and use their answer(s) to further guide you. A lawyer or an engineer equally isn't going to last long in their respective professions if they are not any good.
There are well-established mechanisms for getting precisely what you've paid for, or compensation for one party or the other in some way concerning money, and those involve contracts.
fmashockie:

--- Quote from: SteveThackery on July 06, 2024, 03:36:54 pm ---OF COURSE I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT MYSELF!  SHEESH!  I spent a good part of my career as an electronics bench tech.

I'm constructing an example that apparently passes all your criteria for a professional repairer - and therefore is free to charge $200 per hour whether successful or not - to illustrate how absurd your argument is that said repairer is completely entitled to charge $200 for providing a shit service AND THERE IS NOTHING THE CUSTOMER CAN DO ABOUT IT!

According to you guys the inept repairer - who has spent all day pissing about resoldering the PCB - is acting COMPLETELY FAIRLY by charging the poor customer $1600 for eight hours labour and returning it still broken.

Come on, get real!!

Yes, OF COURSE I'm exaggerating to describe one end of the spectrum, but let's get real, guys:  EVERY ONE OF YOU is somewhere on that spectrum!  The level of expertise will vary between you. You must acknowledge that sometimes you just get it wrong. My exaggerated example gets it wrong every time, but YOU get it wrong some of the time. You do, don't you?!

I reckon you will agree with me that the inept repairer I constructed as an extreme example probably shouldn't get paid at all.  So if you are anywhere on that spectrum that has him at one end, then maybe there's the odd time when you don't deserve to be paid either.

Once you have become a perfect repairer who never gets anything wrong, ie you're at the extreme opposite end from my imaginary man, maybe then you should ALWAYS deserve to be paid.  But not until you arrive there.

I've got a theory. My theory is that almost all the respondents on this thread are American.  If so, it suggests that the concepts of honour and fair play don't extend across the Atlantic from my country (UK).

--- End quote ---

I know I said this before, but this will be my last point!  For someone who is so concerned about everyone in this thread not having empathy for the customer or the end user, I think it speaks volumes that if you were to look at each member in opposition to you; look at the history of their replies/comments, you would see the majority of their posts were aimed at helping others in this forum (for free btw).  Whereas you, the majority of your posts have been in this ridiculous thread you started.  Have a nice life. 
SteveThackery:

--- Quote from: MK14 on July 06, 2024, 03:41:07 pm ---
--- Quote from: SteveThackery on July 06, 2024, 03:36:54 pm ---I've got a theory. My theory is that almost all the respondents on this thread are American.  If so, it suggests that the concepts of honour and fair play don't extend across the Atlantic from my country (UK).

--- End quote ---

At this point, it looks like you are Troll Baiting, in the quoted section, or whatever it should be called.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_bait

--- End quote ---

Don't be boring by banging on about trolling.  It's very tedious.  If you've got nothing constructive to say, then please don't say anything.  The grown-ups are having a conversation, so don't interrupt.

I actually do think there is a cultural difference between the US and the UK when it comes to business practices.  I am not being facetious.  I think there is a much clearer and simpler attitude to profit in the US.  Making a profit is considered honourable and reasonable, and even laudable.  In the UK there is still a hint of "dishonour" or "greedy" about it.  We are just slightly uncomfortable with the idea of profit. The distinction between making a profit and profiteering is paper-thin on this side of the pond.

I think there is another cultural difference, too, around individualism. The US is far ahead of the UK in terms of individualism, and individuals looking out primarily for themselves.  Making a profit from failure (as I've been talking about above) seems to be morally OK in the US, because the culture is all about putting yourself first.  Others are responsible for their own success and well-being.  It's not your job to look after someone who struggles to look after themselves.

Since 1979 (when Thatcher was made Prime Minister) Britain has been on a journey away from collectivism, towards individualism.  We've a way to go before we catch up with the US, but we are certainly going that way.  Old bastards like me remember the time before Thatcher and regret the growth of individualism.

Maybe this is why I might be instinctively more reluctant to make a customer pay when I haven't repaired their product.  I don't know, maybe I'm talking crap.

----

Well, guys, I think I'm about talked out, and I have learned a lot from you all and taken on board many of your arguments. The one I simply cannot move on with a clear conscience is this (which I still find astonishing and hard to believe):

"I am being paid to work on the customer's product, not to repair it.  If it does get repaired, great, we're both happy.  But if not, I'm still going to charge the same amount because it's my labour that is being paid for, not the fruits of my labour."

To which my response is BULLSHIT! The customer doesn't want your labour, they want the fruits of your labour. Your business model is outrageously unfair on the customer, because you can fail, and fail, and fail again, and still go home every day with another $1,600 in your pocket. It's "Heads I win, tails you lose".

Your argument that "market forces" will weed out the numpties isn't much help to those poor customers, though, is it?  And if repairers are in short supply, market forces don't come into play.

It is also astonishingly arrogant to believe that your time is worth $200 per hour even when you've no clue what you're doing.  That's what happens when a computer expert gets an audio amp to fix.  You'll still charge $200 per hour, won't you?  We both know you will.

Anyway, we've hit the buffers on this debate and I've come away saddened by the arrogance some people have expressed ("I'm worth $200 per hour whether I know what I'm doing or not") and some people's lack of empathy for the customer ("Fix or no fix, you owe me $1600 for the day I spent poking at your audio amp and hoping for the best"). 

Nothing more to say, is there?
SteveThackery:

--- Quote from: fmashockie on July 06, 2024, 04:46:08 pm ---
I know I said this before, but this will be my last point!  For someone who is so concerned about everyone in this thread not having empathy for the customer or the end user, I think it speaks volumes that if you were to look at each member in opposition to you; look at the history of their replies/comments, you would see the majority of their posts were aimed at helping others in this forum (for free btw). 

--- End quote ---

Helping others on this forum has nothing whatsoever to do with how you bill your customers.  I am incredibly grateful for all the help the major contributors give, including to me, and in turn I've tried to help in my small way here (but mostly on other forums to do with automotive and motorcycle engineering, where I have donated thousands of answers over the years).

That doesn't stop us from disagreeing vigorously on what business models we use, and the moral issues arising. It's just a debate - it isn't personal. We will (we must) agree to differ.
fzabkar:

--- Quote from: SteveThackery on July 06, 2024, 05:33:22 pm ---Well, guys, I think I'm about talked out, and I have learned a lot from you all and taken on board many of your arguments. The one I simply cannot move on with a clear conscience is this (which I still find astonishing and hard to believe):

"I am being paid to work on the customer's product, not to repair it.  If it does get repaired, great, we're both happy.  But if not, I'm still going to charge the same amount because it's my labour that is being paid for, not the fruits of my labour."

To which my response is BULLSHIT! The customer doesn't want your labour, they want the fruits of your labour. Your business model is outrageously unfair on the customer, because you can fail, and fail, and fail again, and still go home every day with another $1,600 in your pocket. It's "Heads I win, tails you lose".

Your argument that "market forces" will weed out the numpties isn't much help to those poor customers, though, is it?  And if repairers are in short supply, market forces don't come into play.

It is also astonishingly arrogant to believe that your time is worth $200 per hour even when you've no clue what you're doing.  That's what happens when a computer expert gets an audio amp to fix.  You'll still charge $200 per hour, won't you?  We both know you will.

Anyway, we've hit the buffers on this debate and I've come away saddened by your arrogance ("I'm worth $200 per hour whether I know what I'm doing or not") and your lack of empathy for the customer ("Fix or no fix, you owe me $1600 for the day I spent poking at your audio amp and hoping for the best"). 

Nothing more to say, is there?

--- End quote ---
Hear, hear. That's exactly how I feel.

If you want to see real examples of such arrogance and ineptitude, you only need to look at professional data recovery. The vast majority of data recovery professionals are little better than mechanics. When they encounter an electronic problem (ie something they can't fix from behind a keyboard), they break out a thermal camera and see what's hot and what isn't. Most either don't possess a multimeter, or don't know what to do with it. But they still charge like they are the experts at the top of the tree. Thankfully, there are many honourable individuals who operate on a no fix, no fee basis. That said, I've seen many cases where these bozos have destroyed any chance of data recovery by a competent person.

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