Electronics > Repair
Charging by the hour is unfair!
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SteveThackery:

--- Quote from: David_AVD on July 02, 2024, 11:50:29 am ---Just out of interest, do you work from home or in a rented workshop? Also, what sort of money would you have invested in spare parts (on hand), tools, etc?

--- End quote ---

I work from home now, like so many horologists.  The overhead of running a retail shop is just too high for the limited footfall, and an industrial unit is overkill.  I have a top-floor room which I use for horology as well as electronics.

I've been doing this for about 45 years so it's really difficult to know how much I've invested in tools, etc, but it will probably be several thousand UK pounds.  As for my stock of spares and components, I've run that down a lot because it just wasn't worth keeping components that might sit for years or even decades before being needed.  My new approach is to keep a much smaller stock and order my stuff as required from Cousins, here in the UK.  Because they service vast numbers of customers they can afford to keep a large stock on hand.
janoc:

--- Quote from: SteveThackery on July 01, 2024, 08:50:24 pm ---
Fair comment, but I think you are choosing extreme examples to make your point.  You definitely wouldn't (and I don't) quote a four-figure number for every job, just because it MIGHT take 20 hours.  The reality is that 20-hour repairs are extremely rare.  So are 2 minutes repairs. You work on averages, such that most weeks you make the right money, occasionally a bit more, occasionally a bit less.

--- End quote ---

Of course it is an extreme example - but you didn't say what is the thing we are repairing, did you? For a complex piece of electronics with a complicated fault and possibly some restoration to be done as well (or equipment that is not easy to test), 20 hours could well be on the short side still! 

Don't assume that everyone is swapping cracked displays in smartphones in a shopping mall where it is +/- the same job every time a customer turns up with a smashed screen. There you can use those averages. 

But if pretty much every job you get is different (different device, different fault, different manufacturer, maybe parts/documentation not available, etc.) then you would be out of business pretty fast with that approach. How do you calculate an average rate from a sample size of one? That fixing a device A from a vendor X last week took 2 hours has zero bearing on how long will it take to fix an outwardly similar fault in a device B from a manufacturer Y because the root cause could well be totally different.



--- Quote from: SteveThackery on July 01, 2024, 08:50:24 pm ---1/ It encourages you to work slowly in order to charge the customer more money.*  2/ The less competent the repairer the more money they charge per job because it takes them longer.  This is the wrong way round.

--- End quote ---

That has been addressed - and it is a complete red herring. You are assuming the shop works in a vacuum and there are no other factors, such as competition, reputation, etc. You can rip a customer off with a slow, overpriced and incompetent repair exactly once. And if you do, you can be sure they aren't coming back with another job for you. Even better - they will for sure tell all their friends and post on all social media and wherever one posts reviews today what an incompetent crooked fool you are. Trust me, you are going to be out of business very fast. All it takes is a few poor reviews e.g. on Google Maps or Trustpilot (or whatever other such platform people use these days) and you suddenly have no work anymore.

That's the same sort of fallacious argument like people who claim you have ripped them off because you have charged $100 to replace a part that they can get for $1 on Amazon. They also ignore that the costs are not only the costs of the parts - like you ignore that when you charge by hour you can't arbitrarily pad your billed hours because the customer isn't an idiot that would agree to a completely open-ended contract with no bounds on the billed time. Or that the customer has no notion of value for their money and can't decide when it makes no more sense for them pay for the repair.


--- Quote from: SteveThackery on July 01, 2024, 08:50:24 pm ---3/ There's a mismatch between what the customer wants to buy (a repair) and what you are willing to sell (your time). And that's what leads to the most unfair practice of all: charging a customer a goodly sum and sending them home with an appliance that's still broken. There's an expression for that: a rip-off. Or maybe daylight robbery. You get the idea.

--- End quote ---

Which has absolutely nothing to do with whether you charge by hour or a fixed sum. And if you do rip people off, you better have a good lawyer - you will need them pretty soon. Again, you are assuming that people are idiots and will put up with your shenanigans. If you want to rip people off like this with impunity, you need to be a banker or a stock broker, not a repairman where your entire livelihood hangs on your reputation.


--- Quote from: SteveThackery on July 01, 2024, 08:50:24 pm ---Personally I don't know the answer. In fact I don't believe there is a single answer to the fundamental conflict: the customer wants to buy a repair, you want to sell your time.  There are only compromises.

--- End quote ---

Of course there isn't a perfect answer to this - it depends on what kind of market you are in, what exactly you are doing, what are your customers willing to pay for the work, what your expenses are, etc. There is no one size fits all solution. Horses for courses and all that.

It is a tricky problem to get right - if you charge too little, you are leaving money on the table. If you charge too much, you are losing business. If you set up the billing scheme wrong, you will lose money and go out of business. There are entire economic theories on how to set price and bill customers. PhDs were obtained on this topic.

However, you do need to stop inventing non-existing problems and unrealistic scenarios that conveniently ignore inconvenient facts such as existence of reputation or competition in order to make your point. That's not a constructive debate. That's just trying to railroad the discussion in a direction that supports whatever arbitrary point you want to make. When dealing with livestock we could also assume spherical cows in a vacuum for convenience - but it won't help us any if one is trying to figure out how to milk them.
David_AVD:
Running a business from a retail / commercial premises costs a way more money than a lot of people realise. The rent in shopping centres can be astronomical and even smaller industrial spaces are expensive. I know, as I used to rent one after moving my business out of home (I bought a commercial space some time ago). A larger business with employees can be a better fit for commercial premises. Luckily these days the internet has made it a lot easier to find services that are not in those prime retail locations, although I do get a fair number of referrals from current customers and other related businesses.

A good stock of spare parts for electronics can cost quite a bit, especially if you need to be able to turn repairs around promptly. I would estimate that to be in the AUD $10K - $50K range depending on the type of electronics you work on. You can absolutely start a new business with a lot less than that, but over time you'll end up with a lot more.

I don't know that comparing the electronics and automotive repair industries is valid. Mechanics tend to see a lot more of the same vehicle models, where as a general electronics repairer I see a lot of quite different items each week. Service data can also be a big problem, whereas information on cars tend to be more readily available. Working without this information can certainly add time to a job.

If I take my car in to have some issue looked at and I don't go ahead with the suggested repairs, I fully expect to pay for the diagnostic time. Why should anyone work for free? If a business wants to offer free quotes I'm not offended, but I don't feel the need to do the same. Of course some business types do need the free quote offer, but they are for purchases like carpets, patios and the like, not diagnostics.
Runco990:
To the OP with love....  :-*

Learn to fix your own stuff!   :-+  Problem solved!   :-+

Note:  I AM a certified Master Electronics Technician, so take what I say as you wish.

I repair test equipment and do tape decks as well.  Mostly as a hobby now.  I am really semi-retired and do this out of my paid off house.

But I MUST charge a 1 hour diagnostic fee because I have to take apart a complex machine to try and figure out what's wrong with it, and what in most cases... someone else has DONE to it.  This takes time and work.  Frequently much more than one hour.  I have been in decks a DAY before figuring out everything, as often it is more than one problem.  USUALLY it is more than 2 or 3.  That is the nature of old gear.  Now on modern stuff.... you just swap a board.  You don't really troubleshoot it, but at the same time it wasn't even meant to be repaired in the first place.  Those are the "modern" shops, that still exist.  This is not the type of work that I do.  I do component level troubleshooting. 

I CANNOT give up front estimates because I usually get hammered, clapped out, already tinkered with gear that now requires a MIRACLE to get running again.  I am often "The Tech of last resort".  By then, the customer is looking for CHEAP, as some "shop" already charged them and didn't fix a thing.  It's like this:  "My car is making a knocking noise, how much to fix?"  Well, without seeing it, how can I know over an email if something is loose or it's a rod knock and the engine is going out?   But sure... let me quote you $250 to fix.

There are times that when a job gets beyond reasonable expectation, I often just do a flat rate that works for me and the customer, as things are sometimes hidden and only come out later, but I am now much too deep into it and cannot just "UN-DO" my work and say sorry... I'm bailing on this one.  I actually DO work with people.  I do get it.

In my world, there is no "No fix, No pay"    YOU go do it!  You'll be out of business in no time if you work on ancient crap like reel to reel decks.  The effort needed to just diagnose, let alone properly align an electro-mechanical device this complex makes this impossible.  If that is what you want from ME.... good luck getting your thing repaired.  I work from home, so my rates are reasonable, but no.... I don't and CAN'T work for free.  Also, I'm actually very good at what I do... so the NO FIX is pretty damn rare.  I fix stuff others gave up on.

Especially now, that many ebay flippers are just looking for a "cheap fix" so THEY can cash in big time.  I have worked for a few....  "Can you fix this Studer A810 for $20?"  NO... I cannot.  It costs an hour to diagnose, then you get an estimate.  And that is what it is... an ESTIMATE.  Sometimes, things go south... it happens... and you have to make that unpleasant phone call.

And if you think that a good tech pads out his hourly rates.... think again.  We usually have more work than time and usually a weeks to MONTHS backlog.  In fact, I only do specific jobs and interview potential customers ahead of time.  Yes, some shops do this... I don't agree with it.  I do this because I LIKE what I do, not screw people over, so I understand the concern.  Find a better shop.  I always advise to find a private tech instead of a shop, as usually you will have a much better experience.  Most of us old fools do this because we WANT to, not because we HAVE to.  But groceries ain't free....

And then there are many jobs that are simply not worth taking, as parts and labor are constant, the value of the item IS NOT!  It costs a minimum of $40 to replace a belt in a $20 DVD player.....  just toss it and get another.  OR... learn to fix it yourself.  So I myself do not touch "cheap stuff". 
Yes, I was asked this on a coby dvd player.... the girl was SHOCKED that I couldn't do it for $5!

Cheers!  ^-^
David_AVD:
I get a few calls a day from people asking if their item is worth bringing in for repair. I spend 2 mins to ask them a few questions about the item and the fault, then give them my best guess. I stress that I can't know for sure without investigating the fault properly and there is a risk of wasted money (for them) if I do end up finding that the repair is not viable. It's their call and I don't try and talk them into bringing the item in.

Sometimes they will bring the item in and pay the upfront fee, only for me to find the actual issue is worse or not what I thought it may have been. Does that suck for them? I guess so, but I don't have a crystal ball so it's really not my problem. The key is not to sugar coat the initial guess. Just be honest. There's a reason I have a near perfect rating on Google and new customers often remark on it.

Of course there's the people that want their $59 Bluetooth speaker repaired and think it will cost $20 because "It's just a simple fault. It won't turn on so must be the power switch." Sigh...

I concur with the previous poster about stuff that's been "fiddled" with. Sometimes the customer will never even mention they've had a go. It can cause the job to take a lot more time as you've then got to check things that they may have damaged in the process.
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