DC MOTOR NOISES (Thrustmaster T500RS sim racing steering wheel)

[perkabrod]

Hey, have a listen to this DC motor, what is the whining/clicking noises heard? Something faulty, dc motor, h-bridge, position sensor?
In the video I just connect Thrustmaster steering wheel to computer without any game running, that's why the noise can only be heard after I have offset the steering wheel from it's 12 o'clock position and the control circuit is bringing the wheel back to center.

But while playing a game, the noise is heard (and lightly felt) no matter the direction of angular movement. It's a slight notchy feeling, like a stepper motor. I have not heard this type of noise from watching other videos on youtube some I'm curious to find what's causing it. No warranty left, wheels are around 500 EUR new 

Video demonstration
https://youtu.be/6a0iiH1Ne-U

[Armadillo]

I think is bearing noise, either from the motor or the drive bearings.
I would take out the motor to an external system, let the motor drive dummy load and trace it in an oscilloscope for any sign of abnormal current ripple in the DC power supply line to eliminate the motor.

[perkabrod]

Noise is only heard when power is connected. I will try to remove the motor (but still connected electronically) and see if the same noise is apparent under no loading from belt drive. Will post report once I have done that.

[Cyberdragon]

Sounds like a faulty and arcing commutator. Either your brushes or the commutator contacts themselves (or both) have pitted (or corroded) and started arcing.

[Armadillo]

Noise is only heard when power is connected. I will try to remove the motor (but still connected electronically) and see if the same noise is apparent under no loading from belt drive. Will post report once I have done that.

Hi, the bearing needs to be loaded for the test.
The belt pulled the bearing sideway [side loading]. If you tighten the belt too much, the bearing life will be impaired. That's while correct belt tightening is important. The balls can be wear or the ball spring race can be warped.
If unloaded, not a true test but if it sounded, good for you.
If it don't, you still can't conclude or exclude.

Edit: maybe try grease/oil your motor [example Real Four tournament grease]

[perkabrod]

...I would take out the motor to an external system, let the motor drive dummy load and trace it in an oscilloscope for any sign of abnormal current ripple in the DC power supply line to eliminate the motor...

What should I hook up my oscilloscope probes to, the + - on the motor or something else?
What am I looking for in a good working DC motor versus one with problems (due to worn brushes/commutator etc)?

[Armadillo]

Firstly is your motor EC/BLDC motor? Brushless or Brushed?

[perkabrod]

Firstly is your motor EC/BLDC motor? Brushless or Brushed?

Brushed DC, 24V, datasheet, model 236 should be close but label says 289 which cannot be found on their website
https://www.reichelt.com/sz/en/index.html?ACTION=7&LA=3&OPEN=0&INDEX=0&FILENAME=C160%252F1.13.044.236_DS.pdf

[Armadillo]

If there is a commutator problems, your motor will jerk, the torque would be jerky and usually sparking at the commutator.
In your case, your motor rotate smoothly, So don't waste your time on this idea.

I noticed that there is a encoder at the back of the motor. The click click click sound could come from the encoder. Why don't you remove encoder and try it again

[perkabrod]

I noticed that there is a encoder at the back of the motor. The click click click sound could come from the encoder. Why don't you remove encoder and try it again

Thank you very much for your input. Yes, encoder not part of the Bühler motor, I will remove it and investigate, hopefully lot cheaper to replace if it should be the encoder

[perkabrod]

Angular position hall sensor removed, what's next? Feels like it's time to probe something with the oscilloscope?
For this video I did some post fx on the audio channel prior to uploading, a level compressor and noise reduction. Hope you "like" how clear the noise is in this video;)

https://youtu.be/IKybn8OyKF8

[Cyberdragon]

If there is a commutator problems, your motor will jerk, the torque would be jerky and usually sparking at the commutator.
In your case, your motor rotate smoothly, So don't waste your time on this idea.

It's not moving smoothly anymore. It's making noise when it's not moving at all, which means it's having trouble starting. This could definately be your commutator.

However, it could also be an electronic issue. If your motor is getting electrical noise, there may not be enough power in the spurrios impulses to make it move, but enough to make the coils vibrate like a speaker. Probe the motor input with the scope.

[Armadillo]

Hi;

When the pinion rotate, it sounded like the motor is rubbing onto something. Mechanical noise.
I would suggest you take out the motor from the system so that the noise can be isolated and traced.
Also the speed controller seems to be trying to rotate a stuck rotor.
You need to power the motor not from the speed controller, but external power supply, best is variable voltage power supply. Adjust voltage from 0v to 24 volts to just the motor, both unloaded and loaded externally situation.
Hope to see the video soon. 

[perkabrod]

...

Probe the motor input with the scope.

Will do.

[perkabrod]

I would suggest you take out the motor from the system so that the noise can be isolated and traced.

Yes, this is on the way and should hopefully be in my mailbox tomorrow. Should make it easier to remove motor, no need to disassemble the whole drivetrain...hopefully

[Armadillo]

It's not moving smoothly anymore. It's making noise when it's not moving at all, which means it's having trouble starting. This could definately be your commutator.

Yes, it did sounded like a pwm induced commutator chattering noise onto a stucked rotor when the encoder is loosely/initially coupled. Example feedback from encoder not in circuit and transient.
So hopefully the feedback, pwm drive can be excluded from the test by using external DC power supply.

[perkabrod]

The rear shaft with the magnet was very accessible after removing the angular sensor, so I tried spinning the shaft. VERY little resistance, I was a bit concern of mechanical resistance before when I move the steering wheel, but due to the gear stages, there was very little resistance moving the actual shaft on the motor. So any high resistance would then be because something happening inside the motor itself. Or weird noise which the scope will show. Have to sleep now, girlfriend already sleeping and she doesn't like dc motors. Will update tomorrow, thanks for helping!

I have also sent video to Thrustmaster tech support and the people that made the angular sensor, though I don't think they will answer

[perkabrod]

By the way, the torque can be set on computer control panel. One of the first things I tried was comparing noise at maxed out and minimum torque setting. For small movements of the wheel, fraction of a degree, absolutely nondifference in the chattering noise. Not sure that info help much but at least it's out there now.

[Armadillo]

Hi, noise reduction article you could try.

[perkabrod]

Nice document! The single cap method shown in figure 1 is used, now I know why there was a tiny conponent (painted black/gooped) clamped to the motor case with cable ties.

There's also hystheris on the angular position sensor that might be off, can't recall what the datasgeet said about how to set it though...

[Armadillo]

Just assume that black/gooped component is faulty [which is quite common] so you add the external capacitor to it. Best is also to try the 4 capacitors version.

https://www.pololu.com/product/1166

[perkabrod]

Will do. I should have equivalent caps at home.

[perkabrod]

First post here
https://www.xsimulator.net/community/threads/thrustmaster-t500rs-motor-upgrade-65w-to-85w-success-01-23-16.7797/page-3

There's a PCB soldered to the motors in these steering wheel products. I can access the + - on my motor without removing the motor nor pcb, do you think it is safe to hookup 0-24 VDC from my bench power supply directly to + -, leaving everything still connected to the rest of the circuitry, h-bridge etc?

Would be way easier to try that than waiting for the angled screw driver to remove motor and to desolder the pcb

Not sure what that little thrustmaster pcb soldered to the motor does, there's a separate pcb as well with the h-bridge, diodes etc.

[Armadillo]

The first post is from you?

Better take out any wirings to the driver circuit/H bridge because the bridge could be faulty.
At this time, anything is the suspect because I don't exactly know it to be the truth..... LOL.
You want positive conclusive test to isolate so best don't mix.

 

[perkabrod]

Thanks, yes good point.
Will wait for the angled screwdriver, desolder the circuit board and test directly on the motor terminals, with a diode in parallell.

No I haven't wrote anything in that thread about swapping in a larger motor, but I have read it