Author Topic: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.  (Read 8945 times)

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Offline TiN

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Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« on: August 20, 2018, 04:39:23 am »
Yes, another repair thread about benchtop precision DMM. This time it's not so precise, as usual stuff I mangle with, but more typical and commonly used Fluke 8846 6.5-digiter.  :popcorn:
This is possible, thanks to John for his donation in the name of science (and making another article).



I almost feel like it's Fluke invasion in the lab recently. It went from zero Fluke DMMs (87V is not accounted for) to three in no time.  :-DMM

Rear side already show some damage to us, by broken tab of the power entry block. No biggie, just 26$ part.



However when I try to power on thing, it just locks up in booting logo and nothing happens.



Let's see who's inside? Good old LM399H, Fluke resistor networks, ALTERA Cyclone 1 FPGA's and bunch of other goodness.



Transformer is rusty special, that's for sure. Nothing obviously broken. According to date codes on chips, it's made early 2006.
So I mangled with it for few hours, replaced all electrolytic caps (usual rule when doing any older than 10yr equipment repairs), applied freeze spray on Cyclone FPGAs and stuff around in testing for cold joints, and poof, thing suddenly came to life..  ::)



Too easy repair, I thought! I turned it off, on, off, on, seem to be working fine.

Okay, let's have it meet the Hulk (that's nickname for my zombie calibrator).
Connected, turned on for 10 minute warmup, hooked cable, and...



-3.8ppm on 10V, -3ppm on 1V, no worries.



-6.6ppm on 100V, spot on at 1000V, woohoo.



Resistance checks, +10.4 ppm on 10kohm 4W, -47 ppm on 10 ohm. Not too shabby.



ACV and DCI also working okay.
Almost spot on, lol, with zero warming up time. Too good to be true, right?  :-//

LAN port however does not work, cannot connect to it either in static IP mode, or DHCP. DHCP does not get any IP address from network. Perhaps LAN Phy is killed?
Whatever, connected GPIB, that worked. So I setup simple python script to datalog 10VDC and went to bed (it was 5:30 am already).



And sure enough, 10 minutes after I closed my eyes, poor meter died.  :-BROKE  :palm:
It hangs on same power on initializing screen.

BTW, Firmware on it is really old 1.0x, does anybody have newer 2.xx firmwares for 8846A? Fluke removed it from website for no good reason  :palm: :rant:

Any ideas what to pursue next?  >:D
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Online coromonadalix

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2018, 10:35:51 am »
Ask Fluke first for any FW updates, and on a previous thread someone had some boot up issues, check eevblog threads (maybe you have seen it ?)

Fluke must had a good reason to remove it loll    to keep some curious eyes away loll  or complicated updates procedures, i don't know, you loose nothing to ask.

Retry a more region precise  freez spray to replicate your findings, as you say it can be any "cold joint soldering" and maybe an Flir camera to check thermal problems ?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 10:40:02 am by coromonadalix »
 

Offline Zucca

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2018, 02:17:48 pm »
... the Hulk (that's nickname for my zombie calibrator).

You don't know I searched few days ago in google the "Hulk calibrator" nothing, "Fluke Hulk" nothing... and I gave up.
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Offline Mario87

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2018, 08:29:35 am »
....applied freeze spray on Cyclone FPGAs and stuff around in testing for cold joints, and poof, thing suddenly came to life.

So just to clarify, you didn't reflow or rework the solder joints? Just used the freeze spray? If you just used the freeze spray to test for cold solder joints and it started working again, then suddenly stopped once left on for a while I would look at reworking the solder joints, as it sounds like the freeze spray was enough to make the joint contract and make contact, but when on for a while it expands and breaks the connection.
 

Offline TiN

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2018, 04:08:13 am »
Correct, didn't reflow anything. I freezed FPGA (as my suspects for BGA ball contacts) - nothing happened. Then freezed one of the IR diodes, and it got to work those 30 minutes.
I have opto's and FPGA already in upcoming digikey order.
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Offline dacman

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2018, 01:38:48 am »
I searched for
   Fluke8846A-Firmware2.10.882.24.zip (which I think should also work for the 8845A)
and got a hit at
   https://doc.xdevs.com/doc/Fluke/8846A/fw/
but I get a forbidden error.
 

Offline Mr.B

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2018, 01:57:07 am »
Time is the overseer of all things.
 
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Offline lowimpedance

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2018, 02:55:23 am »
LOL  :D........

But on the "Forbidden" ...
I also ran into this error when looking to see what keithley 177 schematic quality was, (linked to it in another thread recently).
Couldn't see the xdevs one so I uploaded a decent copy to that 177 thread.
The odd multimeter or 2 or 3 or 4...or........can't remember !.
 

Offline TiN

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2018, 03:09:58 am »
There is easier way;)
Repository tree migrated, so old URLs borked, sorry.

I have parts from Digikey ordered for meter repair, will see if my intuition is right end of the week.  :-DMM



IR shot reveals not much wrong :)
« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 04:46:58 am by TiN »
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Online coromonadalix

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2018, 10:21:18 am »
What the part heating up at 78.43 degree, i find it very hot for an small part ?
 

Offline glarsson

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2018, 10:43:53 am »
If I remember correctly it is the LM399.
 
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Offline TiN

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2018, 10:52:37 am »
Yep, that is ovenized LM399. It's internal constant temperature by design is about 95 °C.
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Offline analogRF

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2018, 03:14:32 pm »
I have  a couple of questions about 8846A. I hope you dont find it irrelevant to this thread though

-most serial numbers for this unit start with 9xx like 923 962 etc...but there is a unit I am negotiating for and the serial number starts with 118
and I also have seen SN starting with 108. How do the firmwares match to these serial numbers?

-can this Noritake display work in this DMM http://noritake-vfd.com/gu256x64d-7000bx.aspx

-finally, does this meter has the measurement auto HOLD feature that holds the measurement and shows the last few of them like the newer Keysight models? I cannot see a hold key on the front panel

EDIT: attached is the datsheet for that Noritake VFD

sorry if this seems out of scope for this thread but since TiN is here and most other DMM experts will visit this thread I am hoping someone could help
« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 03:16:52 pm by analogRF »
 

Online coromonadalix

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2018, 06:08:44 pm »
« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 06:15:01 pm by coromonadalix »
 

Offline analogRF

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2018, 06:12:32 pm »
even mouser has it.

although it does not have the BX suffix. I dont know what is the difference.

however, my question remains: does this fit 8846A?

https://www.mouser.ca/ProductDetail/Noritake/GU256X64D-7000?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvkC18yXH9iImO64zrkImZBrdAMGtROkPM%3d
« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 06:15:01 pm by analogRF »
 

Offline Kleinstein

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2018, 09:56:43 pm »
The display is a graphics type display with driver board  -so it at least the same class of display like in the 8846. So there is still a chance is might work, but I don't know.

It would definitely not fit the 34401 or the Keithley 200x meters, as these use 7 seg based displays.
 

Online Vgkid

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2018, 10:28:36 pm »
@TiN
Where did your manual repository go . I really liked it.
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Offline TiN

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2018, 04:34:47 am »
Its all there, just update links due server config changes.
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Offline analogRF

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2018, 12:36:38 pm »
I was still hoping someone could answer my earlier question:

does this meter (8846A) has the auto HOLD feature that holds the measurement and shows the last few of them like the newer Keysight models? I cannot see a hold key on the front panel
 

Offline Samogon

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2018, 04:27:34 pm »
I was still hoping someone could answer my earlier question:

does this meter (8846A) has the auto HOLD feature that holds the measurement and shows the last few of them like the newer Keysight models? I cannot see a hold key on the front panel

As i understand they implemented "Histogram Function" which is more advanced, but not really hold function as we used to.
 

Offline dacman

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2018, 09:34:55 pm »
It has a Memory key (next to F5).  If memory is turned on, the meter can store several thousand readings internally or optionally externally if it is an 8846A.  (The 8846A has a USB port that can be used to store readings.)  If you wanted to see the last few readings, it has a Last softkey that could be used then you could scroll backward.  It also has an Analyze key (which is separate from the Memory function) that can be used to turn on STATS.  Then things like average and standard deviation and high/low can be displayed and it can show a graph of the readings.  Histogram is a graph of the standard deviations.
 

Offline analogRF

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2018, 10:05:32 pm »
It has a Memory key (next to F5).  If memory is turned on, the meter can store several thousand readings internally or optionally externally if it is an 8846A.  (The 8846A has a USB port that can be used to store readings.)  If you wanted to see the last few readings, it has a Last softkey that could be used then you could scroll backward.  It also has an Analyze key (which is separate from the Memory function) that can be used to turn on STATS.  Then things like average and standard deviation and high/low can be displayed and it can show a graph of the readings.  Histogram is a graph of the standard deviations.

yes, I know  but that would also store all the readings between probings. With reading hold (or probe hold as keysight call it) it stops
capturing when you take your probe away and reads a new measurement when you touch the probe and only if the new value
is different than the last one by more than 1%. With simple memory it keeps reading and storing the noise when you are not probing.

I have looked all over the manuals and I am 100% convinced now that neither 8846A nor DMM6500 have this simple useful feature.
All keysight multimeters and most older Fluke have it and even rigol and siglent have this. It's a simple software thing and i dont know why they decided to do away with it
 

Offline Johnny10

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2018, 04:29:42 pm »
Just curious what it took to fix unit ? If you needed FPGA.

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Offline TiN

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2018, 05:20:41 pm »
It's still dead.
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Offline Johnny10

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2018, 05:44:02 pm »
 Bummer

Just asking cause I had chance to buy a couple of non-functioning units or a couple of functioning units.

After your answer I decided on functioning units.

I have to correct that... I bought a couple of units with errors which keep unit from functioning!
« Last Edit: October 05, 2018, 11:45:57 pm by Johnny10 »
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Offline Jwalling

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2018, 05:26:05 pm »
Hmm...
Seems like this could be a common problem. :-BROKE


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Offline Johnny10

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2018, 06:40:45 pm »
What does it cost to send them to Fluke for service?

Or is that a question not allowed in the repair forum. :-)

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Offline GreyWoolfe

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2018, 08:15:34 pm »
What does it cost to send them to Fluke for service?

Or is that a question not allowed in the repair forum. :-)

At least you didn't ask that question in the TEA thread!!
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Offline DC1MC

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2018, 08:20:39 pm »
What does it cost to send them to Fluke for service?

Or is that a question not allowed in the repair forum. :-)

The cost of sending them to Fluke for service is acceptable, on the other side, the cost of the servicing, this is what kills you ;).

 

Offline Jwalling

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2018, 08:43:01 pm »
What does it cost to send them to Fluke for service?

Or is that a question not allowed in the repair forum. :-)

The cost of sending them to Fluke for service is acceptable, on the other side, the cost of the servicing, this is what kills you ;).

 :-DD

Yep. IME, it costs about as much, if not more, than a used one in good working order. The four I have appear to have the same fault, but one is a bit different in it's behavior... More tomorrow.
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Offline Johnny10

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2018, 08:47:07 pm »
Yea, why did I even ask  :palm:

I should know better! Waaaaayyyyy too expensive.

I have two units with same error but one has all power rails working properly and one has shorted -15 and +15.
So same error covers a lot of different issues.
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Offline giosif

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2018, 09:01:17 pm »
Anyone getting bored of one of these sick puppies, I'd be glad to alleviate the burden.  ;D
 

Online coromonadalix

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #32 on: October 07, 2018, 03:01:10 am »
Sad to see theses meters having problems and Fluke does'nt acknowledge a thing ???
 

Offline TiN

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #33 on: October 07, 2018, 03:33:01 am »
What would you want Fluke to do? :) I'm sure they will help you with repair for 90% of new unit cost  :-DMM

So far my experience with this 8846 just tend to consider it as overcomplicated design filled with unfriendly firmwares. BGA FPGAs with NIOS SoPC, no way to backup firmware, Fluke withdrawal of their own published FW and poor service documentation. Sure I'd accept that in meter like 8508A, but not in benchtop unit like 884X.
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Offline Jwalling

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #34 on: October 07, 2018, 12:18:49 pm »
Yea, why did I even ask  :palm:

I should know better! Waaaaayyyyy too expensive.

I have two units with same error but one has all power rails working properly and one has shorted -15 and +15.
So same error covers a lot of different issues.

You're probably right. I can see the self test routine:
1 to 199: Run a whole bunch of self tests.
200: If anything fails, sit there and look stupid.

So the four units I have were bought by a friend of mine who brings me lots of repair work from a Govt. auction. Normally, he doesn't buy test gear, but other industrial equipment (hardness testers, etc)
https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=17539&acctid=2863

If he had asked me about them before buying, I would have told him to stay away!

Symptoms:

1. All hang at the init screen.
2. When there is a USB thumb drive plugged in, three of them access the drive at 2 seconds and 8 seconds after powering on. No further accesses are done after that. The fourth one accesses the drive at 2 seconds, then at 3 second intervals over and over forever.
3. All voltage rails are verified and correct.
4. None respond to a GPIB scanning
5.All connect to LAN, and activity pulses can be seen at two second intervals. One time I saw one of them connect to my Asus router and get an IP address. I was unable to get it to repeat this though...
6. I never see any data going across the opto-coupler transmitter at DS3. The other one is transmitting a steady stream of pulses. I'll have to check whether the receiver is getting them, but you got to pull the board or remove the cover to access it. @ TiN: Does this sound like yours?

EDIT: The data stream from DS2 is making it across fine. Whether the data is correct, though... :-//

« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 12:45:30 pm by Jwalling »
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Offline Jwalling

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #35 on: October 07, 2018, 12:43:55 pm »
Yea, why did I even ask  :palm:

I should know better! Waaaaayyyyy too expensive.

I have two units with same error but one has all power rails working properly and one has shorted -15 and +15.
So same error covers a lot of different issues.

Shorted to GND? Do you have a 4 wire DMM?
Jay

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Offline Johnny10

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #36 on: October 07, 2018, 01:54:32 pm »
The 15 V rail sits at 2.18V the -15 at 0.434V

Found a comparator, IC LM393, that is running over 200 degrees F, on the second unit only 87degrees.
Will be investigating that today.


« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 12:39:41 am by Johnny10 »
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Offline Shock

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #37 on: October 07, 2018, 03:03:26 pm »
Tin these look under done, please bake yours more. :D

Might be something to look at I cannot see from the thermal image what temp the right hand one is at. Did you check them and are those tantalums between?

Did you freeze spray that area at all? You may have hit a cap.

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Offline Jwalling

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #38 on: October 07, 2018, 03:41:44 pm »
Tin these look under done, please bake yours more. :D

Might be something to look at I cannot see from the thermal image what temp the right hand one is at. Did you check them and are those tantalums between?

Did you freeze spray that area at all? You may have hit a cap.


A better pic you can zoom in on:
https://xdevs.com/doc/Fluke/8846A/img/fixed_in.jpg
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #39 on: October 07, 2018, 04:37:47 pm »
I used to have a 8846A because it was so much praised here on eevblog.

My unit was bought used with a very weak VFD, but I thought that would be an easy fix.
I tried forever to get a new VFD from Tektronix or other sources and I finally gave up and let go of the instrument.

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Offline TiN

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #40 on: October 07, 2018, 11:48:52 pm »
All power on my 8846 is fine, nothing cooking or shorted. It is not relevant to the "init screen hang" issue, because meter should boot even with inguard section completely unpowered (removed transformer cable from inguard).

Jwalling, yes, there is no life on optos from outguard to inguard. There is slow square wave on pair from inguard to outguard (perhaps just heartbeat signal).
I have tried so far things like:
* Replace RJ45 magnetics and Eth phy (suspected dead LAN input, that get NIOS CPU in FPGA stuck waiting) = no help.
* Replaced outguard SDRAM = no help
* Replaced outguard FPGA (bought new Cyclone from Digikey) = no help
* Freezespray bunch of stuff around  = no help anymore. Originally it helped and made meter work randomly for shortime.

When it was working, it took about 10-20 seconds to boot from init screen, and you can hear relay click after 2-3 sec from power on. Now it however does not click anything, just sitting silly.

Supervisor chip that drive reset to NIOS FPGA is ok, reset is correctly toggled high on power on. There is some life to SDRAM data pins, so it's doing something.
I tried to probe RS232 chip in hope to find debug CPU console output, but there was no signals.

So far best shot would be to trace JTAG to the debug connector, and connect USB Blaster, to try if anything can be done from that side (perhaps read back NOR flash).
But it's a long shot, as we don't have binary image from the FW flash. 8846A update tool have only bits and pieces, but not the full dump binary.
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Offline Jwalling

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #41 on: October 08, 2018, 10:40:15 am »
What would you want Fluke to do? :) I'm sure they will help you with repair for 90% of new unit cost  :-DMM

So far my experience with this 8846 just tend to consider it as overcomplicated design filled with unfriendly firmwares. BGA FPGAs with NIOS SoPC, no way to backup firmware, Fluke withdrawal of their own published FW and poor service documentation. Sure I'd accept that in meter like 8508A, but not in benchtop unit like 884X.

Re: Firmware for the Fluke version, have you tried contacting Erik?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-8846a-anyone-that-got-the-updated-firmware-downloaded/msg1511872/#msg1511872

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-8846a-anyone-that-got-the-updated-firmware-downloaded/msg395578/#msg395578

Apparently, Fluke removed the update utility as too many people could not follow the instructions. Maybe they were bricking them?
assets.fluke.com/software/bench/readme.pdf
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Online Circlotron

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #42 on: October 08, 2018, 10:46:41 am »
What does it cost to send them to Fluke for service?

Or is that a question not allowed in the repair forum. :-)
You could always couch it in terms of how much money you would be saving ;-)
 

Offline TiN

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #43 on: October 08, 2018, 11:21:38 am »
Jwalling
You think where I got this one from?
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Offline Jwalling

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #44 on: October 08, 2018, 11:39:24 am »
Jwalling
You think where I got this one from?

Oh. sorry. I thought you were looking for firmware...
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Offline Jwalling

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #45 on: October 08, 2018, 11:51:36 am »
Doing some more poking around.

Cost to repair from Tek is $895.

The three units I have that behave the same with a USB drive attached, were from the University of Central Florida. All three had an RMA generated, but they never sent them in. Probably when they found out the repair cost.  :-DD

The fourth belonged to Entest Inc.

My gut feeling is that the firmware is probably corrupted on these. But it's just a guess...
Oh for the days when firmware was in PLCC sockets.
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Offline Johnny10

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #46 on: October 08, 2018, 01:06:19 pm »
$895.00 Guess that answers my question !

About the price of a used 8846A DMM.

But it comes back calibrated also!
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 01:34:04 pm by Johnny10 »
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Online coromonadalix

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #47 on: October 08, 2018, 03:24:23 pm »
895$  Each dmm  or the loot ??
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 05:08:18 pm by coromonadalix »
 

Offline Kleinstein

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2018, 04:16:23 pm »
I think from the screen shots it should be clear that this is $895 per unit and excluding shipping and likely sales tax.  Given the rather high price some units might end up as display donors. The repair price is so high, because is in many cases this would be a board swap.

Firmware corruption could be possible, though I would expect a check sum test at the beginning and than a corresponding error message - just like TiN's 3458. Several units with a similar fault might make it worth to dig a little further.  As a broken communication should be caught by the ground based part, I would suspect trouble with the outbound part. Just in case one could do a test with an intentionally broken link - at least this should be caught, as it would be an expected failure mode (e.g. spider at the optical link).

 

Offline TiN

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #49 on: October 08, 2018, 10:33:10 pm »
Kleinstein
Usual NIOS people not thinking the same way as Motorola designers of 3458 FW. Why need to include debug/fault info for user, if we can just demo pretty Fluke intro bitmap on that lovely VFD, and ask user to pay for service? :)

Friend of mine tried to block opto on working 8846 and meter still was able to boot into main UI, just don't show any readings. So if meter no boot = outguard issues.

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Offline Johnny10

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #50 on: October 08, 2018, 11:00:38 pm »
Tin, you changed Outguard FPGA correct?

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Offline TiN

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #51 on: October 08, 2018, 11:24:20 pm »
Yes.
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Offline Johnny10

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #52 on: October 08, 2018, 11:55:00 pm »
On my unit the Inguard is not responding.

I have a functioning Outguard.
But no readings on display...
Removing the shields from the phototransistors reveals  "XC6115 series  high-precision, low current consumption voltage detectors with watchdog. The series consist of a reference voltage source, delay circuit, comparator and output driver".
Which is what triggers my error after a few seconds delay. I can see the pattern on the oscilloscope.

Outguard waiting for a signal, then resetting after time delay, coinciding with the error message appearing on the display.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 04:08:52 am by Johnny10 »
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Offline TiN

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #53 on: October 09, 2018, 04:16:37 am »
Johnny10, slow down, or you will get me wasting time on this 8846 again.  :-DD

On serious note - good find.  I think reversing schematics for isolation interface would be rather easy.
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Offline picburner

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #54 on: October 09, 2018, 06:51:31 am »
Quote
Removing the shields from the phototransistors reveals  "XC6115 series  high-precision, low current consumption voltage detectors with watchdog.

To me U54 & U63 look like AD8601ARTZ op-amp.
In fact a phototransistor pin is connected to the -in input of the op-amp and this makes sense.
What would it do to connect to the wd terminal of an XC6115??
 

Offline Johnny10

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #55 on: October 09, 2018, 12:15:18 pm »
I am certainly not an expert on SMD markings since I have been wrong before.

SMD part marked AAA 5 pins SOT-25.

I used  SMD-Codes from 2007

« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 01:04:35 pm by Johnny10 »
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Offline picburner

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #56 on: October 09, 2018, 01:23:35 pm »
The smd codes are difficult to interpret and often generate confusion because the same code can correspond to many different devices.
I don't have this DMM and then I can't make measurements but to amplify the signal of a phototransistor I would use a hi-speed op-amp not a
voltage detector with watchdog ;)
 

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #57 on: October 17, 2018, 02:39:42 am »
Hi Tin,

My 8845A had a dying IR LED but it popped an error, I don't remember which error. I replaced it with a regular IR LED from an old TV remote and it works well for about 2 years now. Spray cold those LEDs, replace them. It's worth a try.
That big spark at power up was by design!
 

Offline TiN

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #58 on: October 17, 2018, 04:37:24 am »
Hi Tin,
My 8845A had a dying IR LED but it popped an error..

IR led was second thing I swapped (first one was check and confirmed good, also recap all power supply circuits). Didn't help.
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Offline Johnny10

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #59 on: October 20, 2018, 11:14:03 pm »
OK, More testing validates picburner

Pin 1 Signal Out
Pin 4 Input
Pin 5 V+  3.43V

on the AAA 5 pin IC  AD8601ARTZ
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 02:00:39 am by Johnny10 »
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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #60 on: October 31, 2018, 02:03:04 pm »
LAN port however does not work, cannot connect to it either in static IP mode, or DHCP. DHCP does not get any IP address from network. Perhaps LAN Phy is killed?

Too bad ethernet didn't work even while the unit worked. Telnet on port 23 asks for login/psw, which is disclosed in plaintext in the available 2.x firmware files. Once inside, there's uCLinux basic commands, ftp server, some scripts for comm configuration as well as default settings stored.

Symptoms:
(...)
5.All connect to LAN, and activity pulses can be seen at two second intervals. One time I saw one of them connect to my Asus router and get an IP address. I was unable to get it to repeat this though...

Did you ever manage to get an IP again? You could try to login on port 23 and inspect. Also, there are chances that the firmware update (or downgrade?) tool works from this point.

My unit runs the latest firmware listed in Xdevs.com, and I'm having a minor issue that if I break the telnet connection sometimes it no longer accepts SCPI connections on port 3490, but keeps alive at port 23. I know I shoudn't be using wi-fi with instruments, but hey, it's pretty good when it works. Already tried to reboot each network devices in the path between the notebook and the DMM, but didn't work. I'd like to telnet connect on port 23 and restart the telnet process to regain SCPI control on port 3490, but when I kill the only telnetd process listed on `ps aux` command, the connection on port 23 is interrupted. I can reconnect on port 23, but  it doesn't restore telnet connection on port 3490. Also, if I run a reboot command, it restarts the outguard processor, the DMM keeps measuring and updating the display, but still no connection on telnet on port 3490.
I can try to replicate tests or copy files from the instrument if needed. You may try to convince me, but I just don't feel inclined to open the unit, since it's still under warranty. Sorry, I couldn't resist and turned it on instead of tearing it apart. :-(

Hope your meters return from the dead soon!
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #61 on: November 02, 2018, 02:03:18 am »




What is the purpose of the aluminum box over the input connections on the 8508A in the picture?  In later pictures, it (or a clone) appears on the calibrator as well.
 

Offline massivephoton

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #62 on: November 06, 2018, 02:58:01 am »
Had a little more time to play on the weekend.

All power on my 8846 is fine, nothing cooking or shorted. It is not relevant to the "init screen hang" issue, because meter should boot even with inguard section completely unpowered (removed transformer cable from inguard).

Probably, but I wouldn't be so sure on v1 firmware.

Quote
Jwalling, yes, there is no life on optos from outguard to inguard. There is slow square wave on pair from inguard to outguard (perhaps just heartbeat signal).

The measurement app is ca. 1MB in size, /usr/bin/zfp. Killing this process halts measurements, freezing the display. I'd expect the opto communication to halt too. Zfp app is called at the end of /etc/rc script:

Code: [Select]
#!/bin/sh
#
# system startup.

# expand and mount the ramdisk
#/bin/dd if=/usr/bin/ramfs.img of=/dev/ram0
/bin/expand /ramfs.img /dev/ram0
/bin/mount -t ext2 /dev/ram0 /tmp -n
/bin/expand /ramfs.img /dev/ram1
/bin/mount -t ext2 /dev/ram1 /var -n

# mount proc file system
/bin/mount -t proc proc /proc -n

# mount sysfs
/bin/mount -t sysfs sysfs /sys -n

# mount the jffs2 R/W file system
# /bin/mount -t jffs2 /dev/mtdblock2 /usr -n

# mount the romfs RO (SAFE) partition
/bin/mount -t romfs /dev/mtdblock4 /safe -n

# Configure the GPIB interface
/usr/bin/gpib_config

# manually assign ip address (uncomment and edit as appropriate)
# note: first ifattach (no args) sets local loopback
/bin/ifattach

# Set the MAC and IP address
/usr/bin/setmac
/usr/bin/ipenet

# start up the internet superserver
/bin/inetd &

# run 2 sec delay
/usr/bin/me_sleep

#If the application was installed using a windows
#machine the files may not be executable so change
#the permissions just-in-case
chmod 777 /usr/bin/zfp

#Start up the application
/bin/sh -c /usr/bin/zfp &

# that's it... success
exit 0

Quote
I have tried so far things like:
* Replace RJ45 magnetics and Eth phy (suspected dead LAN input, that get NIOS CPU in FPGA stuck waiting) = no help.

It's also possible that eth0 initialization script didn't complete. The firmware update manual mentions the ip 169.254.115.202. Also, setenet script on /usr/bin further mentions the following ip/mac tables:

Code: [Select]
mac_address='00:80:40:00:20:AE'
ip_address='129.196.136.131'

case $1 in
    halfdome) mac_address='00:80:40:00:20:A6' ; ip_address='129.196.136.112' ;;
    mlandich) mac_address='00:80:40:00:20:A7' ; ip_address='129.196.136.116' ;;
    dbartley) mac_address='00:80:40:00:20:A8' ; ip_address='129.196.136.117' ;;
    zippy)    mac_address='00:80:40:00:20:A9' ; ip_address='129.196.136.119' ;;
    rdz)      mac_address='00:80:40:00:20:AA' ; ip_address='129.196.136.122' ;;
    denny)    mac_address='00:80:40:00:20:AB' ; ip_address='129.196.136.125' ;;
    jwitters) mac_address='00:80:40:00:20:AC' ; ip_address='129.196.136.129' ;;
    britz)    mac_address='00:80:40:00:20:AD' ; ip_address='129.196.136.130' ;;
    test1)    mac_address='00:80:40:00:20:AE' ; ip_address='129.196.136.131' ;;
    test2)    mac_address='00:80:40:00:20:AF' ; ip_address='129.196.136.200' ;;
esac

Note how close the mac address found here:
00:80:40:00:56:A9 [on the screenshot]

On my unit the mac address starts with 00:C0:, which might suggest that something is wrong on eth0 initialization. I'd suggest to ping and/or telnet these ips using an auto mdi-x adapter or crossover cable configured with an ip on the same subnet.

Some services to play with:
Code: [Select]
ftp-data 20/tcp
ftp 21/tcp
telnet 23/tcp
uptime 24/tcp
http 80/tcp

I think uptime can be useful to an automation task know that the unit is already warm-up. Telnet connection return an increasing number, not sure, but maybe tens of minutes, and immediately closes connection.

Quote
* Replaced outguard SDRAM = no help
* Replaced outguard FPGA (bought new Cyclone from Digikey) = no help
* Freezespray bunch of stuff around  = no help anymore. Originally it helped and made meter work randomly for shortime.

Any chance that the flash memory got its last breath from a cold breeze?

Quote
When it was working, it took about 10-20 seconds to boot from init screen, and you can hear relay click after 2-3 sec from power on. Now it however does not click anything, just sitting silly.

When zfp app is launched it adjusts measurements, and the relays fill their mag lungs to cry hello world!

Quote
Supervisor chip that drive reset to NIOS FPGA is ok, reset is correctly toggled high on power on. There is some life to SDRAM data pins, so it's doing something.
I tried to probe RS232 chip in hope to find debug CPU console output, but there was no signals.

I didn't see any indicia of console on tty on the files. I didn't even connect using serial yet, but I'd try 115200 baud, at least on later firmwares, since inittab file on /etc shows:
Code: [Select]
# inittab for uClinux
# Format:
# ttyline:termcap-entry:getty-command
  ttyS0:vt100:/bin/agetty 115200 ttyS0

# ttyS1:vt100:/bin/agetty 9600 ttyS1
# ttyS2:vt100:/bin/agetty 9600 ttyS2

# ttyJ0:vt100:/bin/agetty 115200 ttyJ0

Hope there's something like uboot halt on any key here...

Quote
So far best shot would be to trace JTAG to the debug connector, and connect USB Blaster, to try if anything can be done from that side (perhaps read back NOR flash).

I agree, but only if ethernet really not initialized, and also if we don't find any boot console at tty.

Quote
But it's a long shot, as we don't have binary image from the FW flash. 8846A update tool have only bits and pieces, but not the full dump binary.

I must say that the firmware seems to include the full firmware, in pieces, it's true, but integer pieces. After extracting recursively the firmware, we get a folder 'instruments_e6f0b851bdee_zg_ia_sf/884X/bin' holding the firmwares, with the following files: beta_noinfo_reversed.rbf,
busybox, f884x_versions, flashcp, flash_eraseall, jffs2.bin, me_sleep, u69_nios.flash, vmlinux.bin, vmlinuxRev14ptf.bin, vmlinuxRev17ptf.bin, zfp, zfp_837;
and the recipes under /884X/procedures show exactly where each image should go.

One last bit, restarting zfp app restores my measurement telnet connection at port 3490.  :popcorn:

Regards.
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Offline TiN

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #63 on: November 06, 2018, 03:07:14 am »
Cudos for the investigations, that could be very helpful. Perhaps its possible to build "binary image" that can be flashed to new flash chip to try? My meter have 1.x few so there is no "source" update part for this version. But I'd love to try that and even buy programmer that can do TSSOP56 chips.
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Offline massivephoton

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Re: Fluke 8846A repair shenanigans.
« Reply #64 on: November 06, 2018, 01:12:54 pm »
Cudos for the investigations, that could be very helpful. Perhaps its possible to build "binary image" that can be flashed to new flash chip to try? My meter have 1.x few so there is no "source" update part for this version. But I'd love to try that and even buy programmer that can do TSSOP56 chips.

I think it's possible to build a binary. I'm not sure if mtdblock[0-4] really are partitions of the same flash chip. If so, we can find the offsets and create the image. Also, I can try to copy the entire 2.37 flash from my unit to a single file on a usb pendrive. Just don't know how to do it yet.

Also, the firmware 2.10.882.24 already includes full images to upgrade from 1.x:

Code: [Select]
09/29/06-16:59,null    [OG SW]
10/06/06-22:22,null    [IG SW]
09/26/06-15:16,null    [OG HW]
09/26/06-15:23,null    [IG HW]
Sep 27 2006,null       [OS Build]
r1,proc_649_130        [Rel. 1 --> Rel. 7: upgrade using proc_649_130]
04/02/07-08:10,null
10/06/06-22:22,null
09/26/06-15:16,null
09/26/06-15:23,null
Sep 27 2006,null
r2,proc_688_130        [Rel.2 --> Rel.7: upgrade using proc_649_130]
11/09/07-09:21,null
09/14/07-21:54,null
08/20/07-20:19,null
08/21/07-16:30,null
Aug 23 2007,null
r3,proc_837_200_082307 [Rel.3 --> Rel.7: upgrade using proc_649_130]
11/09/07-09:21,null
09/14/07-21:54,null
08/20/07-20:19,null
08/21/07-16:30,null
Oct 25 2007,null
r4,proc_837_200_102507 [Rel.4 --> Rel.7: upgrade using proc_649_130]
11/09/07-09:21,null
12/12/07-20:15,null
08/20/07-20:19,null
08/21/07-16:30,null
Nov 30 2007,null
r5,proc_837_201        [Rel.5 --> Rel.7: upgrade using proc_649_130]
11/09/07-09:21,null
02/15/08-18:44,null
08/20/07-20:19,null
08/21/07-16:30,null
Nov 30 2007,null
r6,proc_837_210        [Rel.6 --> Rel.7: upgrade using proc_649_130]
02/14/08-08:54,null
02/15/08-18:44,null
08/20/07-20:19,null
08/21/07-16:30,null
Nov 30 2007,null
r7,proc_882_210        [Rel.7 --> Rel.7: upgrade using proc_649_130]

For instance, the code for procedure proc_649_130 is:
Code: [Select]
connect,null
wiz,syst:rem
step,1
tcomm,rm /usr/bin/vmlinux.bin
tcomm,rm /usr/bin/u69_nios.flash
tcomm,rm /usr/bin/vmlinuxRev14ptf.bin
tcomm,rm /usr/bin/beta_noinfo_reversed.rbf
tcomm,rm /bin/busybox
fcwd,/usr/
fget,calparams
fcwd,/bin/
fput,busybox
fcwd,/usr/bin/
fput,vmlinuxRev14ptf.bin
fput,flashcp
fput,flash_eraseall
fput,zfp
fput,me_sleep
tcomm,chmod 777 /usr/bin/flashcp
tcomm,chmod 777 /usr/bin/flash_eraseall
tcomm,chmod 777 /usr/bin/me_sleep
tcomm,rm /usr/bin/config/*
tcomm,mv /usr/bin/vmlinuxRev14ptf.bin /usr/bin/vmlinux.bin
tcomm,/usr/bin/flashcp -v /usr/bin/vmlinux.bin /dev/mtd1
tcomm,rm /usr/bin/vmlinux.bin
disconnect,null
reboot_simple,null
connect,null
wiz,syst:rem
step,2
fcwd,/usr/bin/
fput,vmlinux.bin
tcomm,/usr/bin/flashcp -v /usr/bin/vmlinux.bin /dev/mtd2
tcomm,rm /usr/bin/vmlinux.bin
fput,beta_noinfo_reversed.rbf
tcomm,/usr/bin/flashcp -v /usr/bin/beta_noinfo_reversed.rbf /dev/mtd0
disconnect,null
reboot_simple,null
connect,null
wiz,syst:rem
step,3
tcomm,/usr/bin/flash_eraseall -j /dev/mtd3
tcomm,mkdir /mnt/jffs2_blk3
tcomm,chmod 777 /mnt/jffs2_blk3
tcomm,/bin/mount -t jffs2 /dev/mtdblock3 /mnt/jffs2_blk3 -n
tcomm,rm -Rf /mnt/jffs2_blk3/*
tcomm,dd if=/dev/mtd1 of=/mnt/jffs2_blk3/jffs2.bin
tcomm,flashcp -v /mnt/jffs2_blk3/jffs2.bin /dev/mtd1
disconnect,null
reboot_simple,null
connect,null
wiz,syst:rem
step,4
fcwd,/usr/bin/
fput,u69_nios.flash
restorecal,null
wiz,syst:rem
step,5
wiz,ig_download "/usr/bin/u69_nios.flash"
message,"UPDATE DONE"
disconnect,null
end,end

Procedure proc_882_210 does nothing, since the installed firmware is already release 7.
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- Comme c'est joli!
 


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