Hacking oscillscope options and selling it on Ebay

[Jwillis]

I would say "it depends" .If you buy a new price of hardware and "Hack" it for a profit ,I myself would not buy it.Because hacking voids any warranty.
If you buy a used piece and modify it then theirs likely no warranty any way, so buyer beware.
Theirs really no difference between modifying a piece electronic test gear or modifying a classic Chevy and reselling it.
If you Hack protected code and sell the code separately on ebay, that's copy write infringement/ piracy and subject to the penalties in what ever country you reside.     

[CJay]

Theirs really no difference between modifying a piece electronic test gear or modifying a classic Chevy and reselling it.
If you Hack protected code and sell the code separately on ebay, that's copy write infringement/ piracy and subject to the penalties in what ever country you reside.     

There is a great similarity between modifying classic cars for resale and enabling options on test gear, you have to buy the parts for the car before you fit them, the checkout receipt is analogous to your licence code.

Modifying a 'scope with a hacked licence is the equivalent of picking up a camshaft in an auto parts store and walking out without paying for it.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Theirs really no difference between modifying a piece electronic test gear or modifying a classic Chevy and reselling it.
If you Hack protected code and sell the code separately on ebay, that's copy write infringement/ piracy and subject to the penalties in what ever country you reside.     

There is a great similarity between modifying classic cars for resale and enabling options on test gear, you have to buy the parts for the car before you fit them, the checkout receipt is analogous to your licence code.

Modifying a 'scope with a hacked licence is the equivalent of picking up a camshaft in an auto parts store and walking out without paying for it.

No it isn't. It's like modifying the camshaft to get more performance

[mikeselectricstuff]

I would say "it depends" .If you buy a new price of hardware and "Hack" it for a profit ,I myself would not buy it.Because hacking voids any warranty.
If you buy a used piece and modify it then theirs likely no warranty any way, so buyer beware.   

I believe In the EU at least, it would only void the warranty if it could be shown that the hack was the cause of any fault, though the manufacturer's policy on warranty transferability may also come into play

[CJay]

Theirs really no difference between modifying a piece electronic test gear or modifying a classic Chevy and reselling it.
If you Hack protected code and sell the code separately on ebay, that's copy write infringement/ piracy and subject to the penalties in what ever country you reside.     

There is a great similarity between modifying classic cars for resale and enabling options on test gear, you have to buy the parts for the car before you fit them, the checkout receipt is analogous to your licence code.

Modifying a 'scope with a hacked licence is the equivalent of picking up a camshaft in an auto parts store and walking out without paying for it.

No it isn't. It's like modifying the camshaft to get more performance

Fair point, but would you be happy for me to buy your products, hack your code and sell your products on as 'upgraded'?

[mikeselectricstuff]

Theirs really no difference between modifying a piece electronic test gear or modifying a classic Chevy and reselling it.
If you Hack protected code and sell the code separately on ebay, that's copy write infringement/ piracy and subject to the penalties in what ever country you reside.     

There is a great similarity between modifying classic cars for resale and enabling options on test gear, you have to buy the parts for the car before you fit them, the checkout receipt is analogous to your licence code.

Modifying a 'scope with a hacked licence is the equivalent of picking up a camshaft in an auto parts store and walking out without paying for it.

No it isn't. It's like modifying the camshaft to get more performance

Fair point, but would you be happy for me to buy your products, hack your code and sell your products on as 'upgraded'?

No, but it would be my fault for not taking sufficient steps to secure it.

[CJay]

Theirs really no difference between modifying a piece electronic test gear or modifying a classic Chevy and reselling it.
If you Hack protected code and sell the code separately on ebay, that's copy write infringement/ piracy and subject to the penalties in what ever country you reside.     

There is a great similarity between modifying classic cars for resale and enabling options on test gear, you have to buy the parts for the car before you fit them, the checkout receipt is analogous to your licence code.

Modifying a 'scope with a hacked licence is the equivalent of picking up a camshaft in an auto parts store and walking out without paying for it.

No it isn't. It's like modifying the camshaft to get more performance

Fair point, but would you be happy for me to buy your products, hack your code and sell your products on as 'upgraded'?

No, but it would be my fault for not taking sufficient steps to secure it.

You could certainly take more care to ensure it doesn't happen but there still has to be a level of dishonesty on my part if I hack it surely?

Again with the analogies, sorry, but I guess it's roughly similar to leaving a mobile phone on a car seat with an open window, it's not likely to be there when you get back to the car, it means you're a prat but that doesn't mean the person who took it is blameless, they're still a thief.

[bd139]

I’m on the fence here. I spent 2 years helping a company through a software unlocking and reverse engineering court case. There were no winners. The vendor couldn’t uphold their claim that it was illegal as if the hardware is capable and is being artificially limited by software there is not a case to uphold because you’re buying a tangible item without license and any EULA is strictly non enforceable and does not constitute a contract plus reverse engineering for compatibility is allowed. The other side of the case burned a cool half a million on defending their rights, much more than the damn thing was worth.

All this literally gets decided by who can afford the best legal guys. The law is vague in all countries. Most of the enforceability comes from firing sueballs.

This is why software is moving to a rental model more than any other reason, even above reliable revenue.

tl;dr: law is a cocked up mess and whoever has the most amount of money will probably win but there are really no winners so it’s better to shut up and keep your head down than rock the boat on either side.

Edit: I’m not sure that market segmentation and paid up feature adds isn’t dishonest merely a convenient status quo for the vendors. Look at what happened to EA over micro payments as well.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I’m on the fence here. I spent 2 years helping a company through a software unlocking and reverse engineering court case.

is this documented anywhere ?

[bd139]

Unfortunately no as both parties pulled out in the end before judgement so there's nothing on public record. 2 years was mainly muck slinging and legal tennis.

This annoyed the shit out of me to be honest as I was going to leverage the involvement for contract work 

[CJay]

Well that sucks.

There is Mars Vs Teknowledge.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Modifying a 'scope with a hacked licence is the equivalent of picking up a camshaft in an auto parts store and walking out without paying for it.

So I can't poke random option unlock codes in my own Rigol? Is it a crime?

[CJay]

Depends on the laws of your land, personally I'd have at it and enjoy the extra functions but I'd be wary of advertising it as hacked when I resold it but my main point is that it's a very dodgy proposition to make a business out of selling stuff you've hacked.

[Zucca]

This should be moved to "General Chat", there is no repair info here.

[bd139]

Depends on the laws of your land, personally I'd have at it and enjoy the extra functions but I'd be wary of advertising it as hacked when I resold it but my main point is that it's a very dodgy proposition to make a business out of selling stuff you've hacked.

Exactly. You won't go to prison but be prepared to get reamed by legal professionals anyway.

Mine is cracked. If I sell it I'm not going to state that it is.

[CJay]

Depends on the laws of your land, personally I'd have at it and enjoy the extra functions but I'd be wary of advertising it as hacked when I resold it but my main point is that it's a very dodgy proposition to make a business out of selling stuff you've hacked.

Exactly. You won't go to prison but be prepared to get reamed by legal professionals anyway.

Mine is cracked. If I sell it I'm not going to state that it is.

I've noticed the hackable test gear tends not to depreciate as much as the unhackable stuff, make of that what you will.

[bd139]

Indeed. That's one reason I bought a DS1054Z. If it wasn't crackable I doubt I'd have made the purchase either to be honest as well.

[Muttley Snickers]

Here is a current listing on Ebay Australia for a DS-1054Z which is described as having a number of "factory unlocked options", now with all due respect to the seller these could in fact be genuine factory options or it could all be bullshit just to inflate the price, if it were later found by the buyer of this scope that these options were in fact not factory unlocked would that then be a valid case for a not as described claim ?. Shouldn't there be additional documentation included to confirm the legitimacy of these features ?.

I'm currently unable to grab a snapshot of the listing to post for posterity due to this devices limitations so here is the listing below.

https:///www.ebay.com.au/itm/Rigol-DS1054Z/113150576581?

[rsjsouza]

Indeed. That's one reason I bought a DS1054Z. If it wasn't crackable I doubt I'd have made the purchase either to be honest as well.

IMHO that is the main reason why Rigol kept dominance over the entry level market for so much time: they left the hackers of the DS1054Z alone and kept the trend they set with the DS1052E before that.

Here is a current listing on Ebay Australia for a DS-1054Z which is described as having a number of "factory unlocked options", now with all due respect to the seller these could in fact be genuine factory options or it could all be bullshit just to inflate the price, if it were later found by the buyer of this scope that these options were in fact not factory unlocked would that then be a valid case for a not as described claim ?. Shouldn't there be additional documentation included to confirm the legitimacy of these features ?.

I'm currently unable to grab a snapshot of the listing to post for posterity due to this devices limitations so here is the listing below.

https:///www.ebay.com.au/itm/Rigol-DS1054Z/113150576581?

It was not long ago that Rigol started running a promo where all decoding options were unlocked. Since the listing mentions the oscilloscope is "brand new in box" with several decoding options unlocked but still shows 50MHz bandwidth, I think it is a legitimate listing.

[maxtee]

I believe hacking for personal curiosity and learning is OK or should be OK as long as you are not making it a business like the eBay seller mentioned in the first posting. He has figured out a way to hack Flexlm license file on Agilent Infiniium typer scope. If you look at his listings, pretty much all the Agilent Infiniium sold by the seller has exact same options and the serial numbers and the option IDs are hidden in the listing.

[Jwillis]

If you sell the unit as "modified" or "As Is"That is legal.At least here in Canada .
If you extract the code that has been modified and sell it on a disc, that will get you in trouble.

[andy2000]

Enabling options that were available on a product and then selling it is very questionable, but I don't have a problem doing it for personal use.  If it was ever calibrated, or serviced by the manufacturer you might run into trouble, like losing the options.  You're bypassing a software lock, even if it's a weak one.

I don't have any problem with hardware modifications like making a 1GHz TDS744 (as long as you don't try to pass it off as a genuine TDS784).  For one thing, Tek never sold a 1 GHz option for the TDS744, and never offered to upgrade their bandwidth after purchase.  Your not trying to bypass keys, or other protections, you're just making circuit modifications.  Then there's the matter of spending hours recalibrating it to 1 GHz, and there's no guarantee it will successfully calibrate to 1 GHz.  Finally, any hardware modifications would surely void the warranty, which seems like a fair trade for any loss to the manufacturer. 

It's like buying a car without the turbo option, and then adding it yourself.  Just don't try to claim it has the factory turbo when you sell it, or expect the warranty to cover any damage to the engine.  On the other hand, buying a car without GPS and then hacking the software to enable it is a different matter.

[cowasaki]

The legality of parts of what you are talking about depends on where you are too. If you live in the UK and buy that scope it is your scope which you can hack as much as you like. You will break the warranty possibly and certainly end user agreements etc but neither is criminal. The most that the company could do is take out a civil case which is highly unlikely.

If you hack a scope and sell it on eBay as the higher model then that is fraud by false representation and a criminal matter.

If you hack a scope and sell it on eBay as the lower model but hacked you are back with the civil issues plus Ebay’s user rules which might get your losing removed.

Other country’s laws may be different.

[bd139]

To note I saw a DS1054Z advertised here in the UK which had been cracked to 100MHz for sale at £500. I bet they won't sell that

[mikeselectricstuff]

If you hack a scope and sell it on eBay as the lower model but hacked you are back with the civil issues plus Ebay’s user rules which might get your losing removed.

There are no civil issues as nobody signed a license agreement