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Electronics => Repair => Topic started by: cat87 on February 17, 2016, 06:31:33 am

Title: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: cat87 on February 17, 2016, 06:31:33 am
Hello fellow forumers, I need some help or advice in diagnosing a recently bought Sony CDP-X339ES  CD player (I bought it knowing it was defective)

The issue with this player is that when I put a CD in, it gives it a slight spin, then a clicking sound can be heard, the CD disk stops, then again, the player tries to spin the disk, then the click is heard again and so on. This goes on for about 10 - 15 seconds.

To put things into perspective even more, I have made a short video showing this behavior (excuse my horrible filming skills)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RHqpwPbJ1Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RHqpwPbJ1Y)

Now, my best guess regarding that clicking sound is that the focusing lens is hitting the disk, while trying to focus. On the other hand, I also suspect something might be wrong on the spindle mechanism / motor assembly

Here's what I know so far that works: the actual laser diode works, the sleigh moves back and forth (when I power on the player), and the focusing mechanism seems to be working (focus lens moves up and down)

Any advice / help on this matter  is welcome.

Thank you
Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: cat87 on February 17, 2016, 05:34:09 pm
Ok, so  I tried putting in  a  CD and whilst the spindle was trying to spin it, I gave it a little push. At a certain speed, the clicking went away, but still the spindle motor did not start.

Could this be  as simple as a dead spindle motor?
Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: cat87 on February 17, 2016, 06:00:10 pm
Nope, not the spindle motor. Took the whole thing apart, put some 3.5 Volts on the spindle motor and it turns, no problem. So it's back to the " lens hitting the disk" question.
Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: oldway on February 17, 2016, 06:38:11 pm
Service manual can be downloaded here:

http://elektrotanya.com/sony_cdp-x339es_sm_2.pdf/download.html (http://elektrotanya.com/sony_cdp-x339es_sm_2.pdf/download.html)
Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: cat87 on February 17, 2016, 06:52:37 pm
Thank you, but I already have the service manual for this unit.

The issue still seems to be something to do with  lens not focusing right. That's what I think, at least.  Going to see what rabbit hole I  go into when searching more about this.
Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: oldway on February 17, 2016, 07:05:03 pm
Thank you, but I already have the service manual for this unit.
But people who want to help you don't....
The issue still seems to be something to do with  lens not focusing right.
For sure, you already tried to clean the lens. In this case, the first thing to do is to replace and adjust the optical device KSS-272A. But I am afraid this part can not be found easily.
 That's what I think, at least.  Going to see what rabbit hole I  go into when searching more about this.
Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: SeanB on February 17, 2016, 07:11:51 pm
Laser emission is low. Either you buy a new KSS laser block and install it, or you adjust laser power up slightly to compensate. Slightly increasing laser power will probably give a good enough return to get focus, which will then allow the player to read the TOC and play.  If laser power is good and still no joy then it is a worn spindle motor, it should run with a disc in the player with 1V applied, otherwise it is worn and needs replacing.

Please note that often the replacement block is supplied as a slightly different part, an improvement over the original, and you will need to set laser power with a power meter and adjust the little pot on it along with having removed the shorting blob during installation that was there to protect the laser diode from ESD damage in shipping. Used units may not have this link, and might either work without adjustment or may not work at all either from being low emission or blown laser from high current or ESD damage.
Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: cat87 on February 17, 2016, 07:48:06 pm
Thank you for the replies.  I tried adding some "spacers" to the spindle, in hopes of raising the disk a couple of tenths of millimeters, but no joy.
I cut some round piece of paper, with a big hole in the middle and added them on the spindle platter. With 0.12 mm  thick paper (handy to have a micrometer around the house) and still the clicking sound persisted. Then, tried with a 0.35mm heavy paper and this time, only a single click came out of the old cd player...after that, it kept giving me "No Disc", so obviously that was too high...just to confirm a hunch, I'm going to try an ever  an even thicker piece.

I'm going to also try to see the S Curve on an oscilloscope and some other signal that are in the Service Manual. Maybe I can get a cue of what's going on from those.
Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: oldway on February 17, 2016, 09:02:58 pm
Also check if there is no damage or wear to the linear motor and slides.
Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: cat87 on February 18, 2016, 06:35:27 am
Just had a crazy idea. Maybe I should also check the voltages  on the board of the optical unit, along with the other signals. If I'm going to have a whole forest of breakout wires, why not add a few more.
Maybe when the  unit tries to start up there's a voltage rail that sags and causes a reset to the whole unit.
Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: cat87 on February 18, 2016, 06:27:34 pm
Ok, so after following the first rule in troubleshooting, thou shall always measure voltages, I stumbled across the first palpable lead so far.

There is a  regulated -2V rail, VEE, that is used as GND for some op-amps and the  motor drivers, which includes the spindle. It's kind of confusing though, because on the PCB, it's labelled as "-2V", and in the schematic it shows a "-0.2" on the Emitter of the regulator.
Also, on the oscilloscope,  I've noticed positive spikes in this rail, going up to about  +1V or so, these coinciding with the knocking sound I hear.

I've added a pic of the scope and a screen capture from the service manual, showing the VEE line (blue trace) and the components connected to it. (the VEE line is the  discontinuous line and the red line, in the pics)

Now, when sitting idle, the voltage is indeed -2V (that's what it says on the PCB), the spikes, as I've said, appearing only when the clicks are also present. 

Of course the only question is what's causing this, and why does the voltage go up to +1V

Also, looks like there's a reset line, which is the yellow trace on the scope, and that's held high all the time, also during the "clicks"
Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: oldway on February 18, 2016, 07:24:29 pm
Check (ESR - capacitance) or replace C955 1000µF 10V and C952 3300µF 10V.
Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: cat87 on February 18, 2016, 08:12:57 pm
I just took both caps off the board and measured the capacitance and ESR, the latter with an ESR adapter, and both caps seem "annoyingly"  good. But, on the other hand, this is what I'd expect from Elna and Nipon Chemicon caps.
Another thing I tried was to whack a cap in parallel with C955 , 1000uF, Low ESR Sanyo. The spikes seemed to have gown down a little in amplitude, but only 0.3 or 0.4 V.
So, either the regulator isn't doing it's job properly, or something is pulling down that rail when the spindle is trying to start. Here's hoping for the cheaper version (i.e. a malfunctioning PNP)

Next would be to either check the PNP transistor or replace it,  or to apply  from "outside"  my own -2V and see what happens....although I'm a bit reluctant with the latter one.

Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: oldway on February 18, 2016, 09:18:28 pm
If C955 and C952 are good, this means that this variation of the -2V rail is probably a result (too high current) and not a cause of the fault.
No need to go further in this way.

You should now look for what is consuming too much current: linear motor ? Spindle motor ?....
Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: cat87 on February 19, 2016, 06:47:30 am
Yes, I was kind of wondering that myself, if this is a cause or an effect of the actual fault. The thing that got me asking this question to myself is that when I power on the player and the the optical block moves back and forth, I can also see some small increases in amplitude on the -2 V rail, of about 0.4V, so it's most likely an effect of the linear motor  moving...although, even so, it should still maintain better regulation.

Anyway, I'm starting to wonder if that click I hear is actually the linear motor, hitting the end of the rail, and not the lens hitting the disk. And this hitting against the end, may be causing an increase in current, making the VEE line droop.

Now I just have to find out why it may be doing this.

In the pic below, I have marked with orange the regulated VEE line, , at -2V,  and with green,  the VEE line for the linear actuator controller, which seems to be taken before the regulator,  straight from a transformer winding.
Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: oldway on February 19, 2016, 09:30:01 am
You should know that most CD players failures are wearing breakdowns or mechanical defect (wears: motors, lens, laser, play in gears, - mechanical failures: broken tooth in the gears, motors, belts) rather than electronic failures.
When it comes to electronic failures, it is usually power supplies or output stage of motor control failures.

The great thing is to have in reserve a reading unit (optical unit + mechanical transport block) in perfect working condition and test the CD player with this unit.

This helps locate the fault in the electronics or in the reading unit.

NB: picture of a broken tooth of a Sony cdp-xa2 gear.
Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: cat87 on February 20, 2016, 12:27:34 pm
Ok, so I've disconnected the spindle motor, put a CD in and the clicking is still there, so it's not  the spindle motor making the noise. So  it's either the linear motor or the lens making the clicks. I'm leaning more towards the linear motor and / or driver , because of how the VEE line behaves.
I'm basing this on the fact that if the lens were to indeed hit the  disk itself, the driver coil for it wouldn't cause such large voltage spikes.
Also, if indeed the liner motor driver for the sleigh was at fault, i guess it wouldn't move it at all, even when I power on the  CD player, am I right ?
Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: SeanB on February 20, 2016, 02:20:36 pm
Clicking is the lens hitting the disc or the end stop during the initial focus sweep, where the laser is powered then the focus motor is driven with a triangle wave to try to find a focus point on the disc. Once focus is achieved then the spindle motor is commanded to spin up, the focus loop tracking the surface till the motor speed gives something valid data wise out of the recovered lead in, which then is used to lock the speed loop and then the control starts to slowly track outwards to try to read the TOC data block.

No motor run says no focus, which is either caused by the supply being poor (check voltage across C952 for ripple as the system starts up, often caused by a high value Th902 fusible resistor) or the laser being low, or the optical block having a dirty lens. If the optical block is fine then check laser drive for dry joints or open or high value current sense resistors. There is a procedure to turn the laser on so you can check the diode feedback is giving a usable power output and the correct laser current, along with how to set it using the pot on the laser block.
Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: cat87 on February 20, 2016, 02:55:36 pm
I've checked the voltage on C952, and the ripple on it, when the CD player is idle is about 200mV. Also, its ESR is somewhere about 35-40 mOhms.
TH902 seems fine also. My crap DMM shows 0.7 Ohms, so I can call that acceptable.

I've also scoped the voltage across C952 (second picture), just before  the -2V VEE regulator. Maybe the spikes are cause by the feedback coil of the actuator. Like oldway said, this might be an effect, and not the cause.

@ SeanB: would that feedback from the diode be the "S curve" the manual talks about ? Also, in the Service Manuals that I've found on the net, none says anything about a detailed troubleshooting procedure such as turning on the laser. It only says something like "put in disk  bla bla bla and check that this signal looks like this".
Do you know where I might find this procedure that you've mentioned ?  Also, there is no mention of how to properly calibrate the laser power  |O

Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: cat87 on February 20, 2016, 06:34:11 pm
Ok, so the linear motor for the sleigh is not the culprit. I've put some lead wires on the power to that linear motor, turned on the player,  I let it do it's back and forth movement, then I  put in a CD, and after the second  "click", I disconnected the linear motor....and the click was still there, so now I have confirmation that this  indeed  has to do with the  focusing / tracking mechanism.

Also, this is the culprit that takes the VEE line out of regulation.
Now, if  the actual focus coil driver was at fault, it would not move the focus coils  up and down at power on, right? And I can clearly see the lens moving when powering up, so my only thought is that the VEE regulator is the guilty party here i.e. D964, Q951.

In light of this new information, I've proceeded to do some measurements on the PNP and the Zenner. The  Zenner D964 is a 7.5V one. The measured voltage drop across it  is 7.3V, but this drops to 6.5V, not when the linear motor is moving, but only when the focus coil is moving. So, there's something loading it....and it's not the Linear Motor driver, that taps  the anode of D964. Also since the Cathode of D964 is connected to the +5V rail, I've measured that also, and during all operations, the 5V rail is nice and stable.

The Collector of Q951 is at -2.36 V (with respect to GND) but this drops to about -1.8 V when the focus coils are moving.

The actual VEE line  (which is labeled as -2V on the PCB) sits at about -1.7V, and this drops to -1.13 V when the focus coil is moving. Also, the manual isn't very helpful here, because it gives some wacky voltages around Q951, that have no logic.  (i.e. 4 V on the PNP's collector)

Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: cat87 on February 21, 2016, 11:28:51 am
Well, it's not Q951 at fault. I've replaced that with a similar PNP and still the same behavior. Also, I've taken C956 off, which is connected to the base of Q951, and capacitance value is OK, also the ESR (about 0.8 Ohms, datasheet specifies this series as having 1.4 Ohms ESR)

All I have left is the Zener itself, after which, I will have to start suspecting either a faulty driver for the coils or indeed, as some have said, poor laser power. But this last one is a bit of a mongrel, because the adjustment pots are on the optic block, underneath the tray. So to do calibration on this thing, while a CD disk is in is impossible....at least without me knowing the proper calibration procedure.
Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: oldway on February 22, 2016, 09:16:49 am
When the laser beam is weakened and the laser unit has difficulty reading the TOC of the CD, especially cd-r's, (trying several times, accelerating and braking the cd)  we can improve the situation somewhat by increasing the laser power.

But this is not a long term solution.

When there is no focus at all, or the laser is completely dead or there is some other cause.

In my opinion, it is not with a laser power setting that you will solve the problem.

I think you should replace the optical pickup KSS-272A block.

I have 4 old CD players who are irreparable because spare parts are no longer available or because their price is prohibitive.

NB: check first if LDON (connector CN102) is active when cd player try to read the cd.
Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: cat87 on February 22, 2016, 10:40:35 am
Ok, I scope the LDON signal and see what I get. 
Also, I've thought  about swapping IC 152 and IC 142 between them, just in case  IC 152 is the one pulling the VEE line down (or rather up) If not, I'll begin suspecting  IC 102.

In case the optical block needs to be changed, I've got a KSS-271A from a 333 CD player.  Just swap the T+ and T- and connect a pin from the laser driver to GND, and it should be OK....hopefully it won't come to this.
Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: oldway on February 22, 2016, 11:37:25 am
If clicking sound is that the focusing lens is hitting the disk, it is something that can't occur because it will dammage both disk and lens.
In this case, you are right to look after an electronic fault who has nothing to do with laser beam, nor even with the optical pickup KSS-272A block.
In my opinon, focus coil is FCS.
You should measure the signal on pin 11 of IC102.
Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: cat87 on February 22, 2016, 08:05:56 pm
I managed to fit some lead wires on the optic unit itself, in order to see some signals that might be of interest. The first is the LDON signal (First picture) This looks like it's happily going about it's business, and it is ON when powering the CD player on, when inserting  disk....it looks OK.  Note that the LDON signal is the yellow trace, while the blue trace is the -2V line.

The second signal is Pin 25 on IC 102 (Second picture, yellow trace) and this looks like it's following the click that I hear, also visible in the -2V line (the blue trace) as rising peaks. The signal is the output from the comparator for the  SRDR and SFDR signals.

The third signal is Pin 11 on IC 102 (Fourth pic), basically what would be the signal from the feedback coil. Now this looks kind of promising....there's a nice ramp, and at some point, the signal  falls abruptly (for about 70-80 ms), the comes back, and so on, this also coinciding with the rises in the VEE line. This signal comes straight  from the Digital Servo,  IC 101, so my guess is that this wouldn't have any reason to behave like that, would it ?

Also, I scoped the same line when the CD player is turned on (last picture) and it moves the lenses, to figure out if there already is any CD inside, and,  with no disk inside,  I see a nice ramp, so it's hard to believe that IC 102 is at fault here.....
Maybe some of the comparators, IC 151, IC 152 are causing this. Or maybe there's something actually going on to the digital servo controller (bad caps, resistors...) ?

I'm kind of stumped right now.

Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: oldway on February 23, 2016, 09:25:21 am
You notice how difficult it is to make a diagnosis with such CD players.

In general, the type of failure that happens in electronics are either no signal or ripple, or a completely wrong signal.

Here we have a normal signal except during a short period of time.

There is a strong interaction between the electronic and the optical block, making it difficult to locate the fault in the electronics or the optical block.

In such a case, you should have a complete optical unit block functioning to replace the unit.

This would let you locate the fault.

Without this, we can not really draw a conclusion about the measurements you have made.

I have never met such a defect (lens that hits the disk), perhaps is it a usual drawback of this CD player model.

Did you try to send an email describing the problem to customer service/support from Sony?
Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: mzacharias on February 23, 2016, 11:37:05 am
I think you guys are really over-thinking this one.

I've worked on hundreds of Sony CD players. The laser failing to focus makes the "click" as it bounces back from its highest physical extension when the focus "ramp" voltage reaches its end. It is normal to hear three clicks; then, having failed to focus, the sequence is over.

The water is now muddy due to the repair attempts, but yes, a new pickup should fix it. Probably a good idea to replace the flat flex cable as well if this model is a (somewhat) newer one that uses one.

Do not forget - there is normally a protective "solder blob" or some other method shorting two adjacent connections, usually on the laser pickup pcb, which needs to be cleared before the new pickup will work.

Here is a tip: You can use your cell phone camera to "see" the laser pickup light up. This applies to IR remotes as well. The IR output will appear as a white spot on your cell phone screen.
Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: oldway on February 23, 2016, 11:54:35 am
Remembering what I wrote:

Quote
You should know that most CD players failures are wearing breakdowns or mechanical defect (wears: motors, lens, laser, play in gears, - mechanical failures: broken tooth in the gears, motors, belts) rather than electronic failures.
When it comes to electronic failures, it is usually power supplies or output stage of motor control failures.

The great thing is to have in reserve a reading unit (optical unit + mechanical transport block) in perfect working condition and test the CD player with this unit.

Also:
Quote
For sure, you already tried to clean the lens. In this case, the first thing to do is to replace and adjust the optical device KSS-272A. But I am afraid this part can not be found easily.

New pickup optical unit KSS-272A is no longer available and it is probably beyond economic repair.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/148561-laser-diode-successor-sld-104u-sony-esprit-kss-series.html (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/148561-laser-diode-successor-sld-104u-sony-esprit-kss-series.html)
Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: mzacharias on February 23, 2016, 12:48:52 pm
This is the sound of me slinking back to my little corner...
Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: cat87 on February 23, 2016, 01:15:46 pm
Well, I do have a KSS-271A that I'm willing to use for this player, but before I start on modifying it, has someone around here tried to  replace a KSS-272A with a KSS-271A ?
I mean, besides the polarity of F+ and F- and tying  pin 11 to pin 10, are there any other traps I should be weary about ?
Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: oldway on February 23, 2016, 01:35:14 pm
This is the sound of me slinking back to my little corner...
Not at all, your experience with Sony CD players is highly welcome and valuable.

I repaired (or attemped to repair) a lot of different brands and models of CD players , but few Sony ones.

When I buy a faulty CD-player, I only pay very cheap (no more than 10 bucks) because I know that they are often beyond economic repair.

CD players with TDA1541 are more expensive.

Some optical pickup unit are easily available and cheap as KSS-213B.
Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: cat87 on February 23, 2016, 01:50:35 pm
This is the sound of me slinking back to my little corner...

Now, when things are getting interesting ?  :)
Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: mzacharias on February 23, 2016, 02:48:05 pm

Some optical pickup unit are easily available and cheap as KSS-213B.
[/quote]

Yeah - the cheaper consumer stuff is more my speed. Done a few ES models but never seen the 272 pickup before.
Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: cat87 on February 23, 2016, 04:29:57 pm
So. after some searching around on the net, looks like some other brave soul was having trouble with a KSS-272A and decided to replace the optic block with something else. The replacement  was a KSS-240, and apparently, it kind of works.

For anyone curious, this is the link (in Polish) : http://electronicstructures.blogspot.ro/ (http://electronicstructures.blogspot.ro/)

So, I;ll give it a shot myself
Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: cat87 on February 25, 2016, 11:57:05 am
Some progress report on the repairs on the CD player: I've swapped the KSS-272 with the KSS-271 on the 333 player and unfortunately, it looks like something is totally dead on the 333  laser block, because that did not work at all, not even the linear motor (probably some broken tracks in the flex cable) so, as things stand right now, I'm back to square one.
And yes, I've soldered pins 10 and 11 together on the KSS-271, like it was on the defective KSS-272.  As far as compatibility between these two pickups, they should be almost identical, pin wise.The only difference are the voltage levels applied.
No idea about what to do next, except try to sell this a defective   |O
Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: ElektroQuark on February 25, 2016, 02:40:49 pm
I don't know about those pickups, but the anti static solder bridge is to be removed before use. Are you sure you have to bridge pins 10 and 11?
Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: cat87 on February 25, 2016, 04:37:27 pm
The KSS-271 was from a defective 333 CD player, so no solder blob on that one. As to bridging pins 10 and 11, if the service manual is right, then yes, the would have to be connected together.  I mean, the chips seem to have the same parts layout and pin assignment.
Title: Re: Help repairing Sony CDP-X339ES CD player
Post by: cat87 on February 29, 2016, 06:23:06 am
After some investigating, seems that the KSS-271A that I wanted to replace the laser pickup with is  more or less FUBAR. For starters, one of the coils on the linear motor is dead, also the focus coil. So, like I said, until I  get a functioning KSS 272A replacement that actually works, I can't do much more.

A shame really, because these are really nice CD players. Too bad the laser pick-ups are  Unobtanium.