Help with removing HDMI encoder chip.

[Bargainhunter]

 

I am getting nowhere trying to remove a HDMI chip from a panasonic projector main board. 
I have the board on a pre-heater set to 400 F.  My hot air station is a ZD-982.
I have the hot air set to the max at 785 F.
The solder on the chip will not melt.  I have the hot air gun close and going around the chip for more than 30 seconds and the solder will just not melt.
I hesitate to hold the hot air gun any longer and I can't get the air gun any hotter.

Can anyone please tell me what I'm doing wrong.  I see videos on youtube and the chip is removed in 5 to 10 seconds!

Chuck - bargainhunter

[Rasz]

Settings on your tools dont matter, what matters is actual temperature on the pcb, use thermocouple on the board and measure in few places, optimal preheater temp is ~100C on top surface. Preheater should be big enough for whole PCb (or it will warp) and should _not_ exceed couple degrees per second temp rise (or it will warp/crack/pop).
you have 300W  24l/min hotair on paper, but its chinese combo bargain garbage unit so its safe to half those numbers, good for smd passives on 2layer boards and shrink tubing.
there is a trick for non bga chips - add lead solder to all the pins

[hamster_nz]

Settings on your tools dont matter, what matters is actual temperature on the pcb, use thermocouple on the board and measure in few places, optimal preheater temp is ~100C on top surface. Preheater should be big enough for whole PCb (or it will warp) and should _not_ exceed couple degrees per second temp rise (or it will warp/crack/pop).
you have 300W  24l/min hotair on paper, but its chinese combo bargain garbage unit so its safe to half those numbers, good for smd passives on 2layer boards and shrink tubing.
there is a trick for non bga chips - add lead solder to all the pins

Wow.

A 'tour de force' of useful advice as the first reply to an EEVblog post. Never seen that before.

Rasz deserves bonus points.

[amyk]

30 seconds is not too long, remember that large parts and boards have lots of thermal inertia so will take a while to heat up. Unless you're blowing for many minutes, don't worry about damaging parts --- by its nature, hot air conducts heat far slower than actual metal-to-metal contact with a soldering iron, so it's very much not a "touch and go" type of operation.

[Bargainhunter]

Thanks for the advice.  The board must be dissipating the heat.
I will try a thermacouple to read the temperature of the top surface near the chip.

Also what is your opinion of Chip Quik?

Thank you,
chuck

[BrianHG]

A projector with an HDMI encoder?  Are you sure it's not a decoder chip?  What would you replace it with?  HDMI decoders with HDCP keys in them cannot be purchased by consumers.  It usually means your projector wont work with official DVD, Bluray or cable boxes, they will just say need an HDCP compliant receiver, or just show a black screen, or, only run in 480p.

[ruffy91]

Do you want the chip or the board to survive?
If only the board: Cut the pins from the ic and desolder them individually.

Probably the decoder also has a big ground pad underneath.
Can you get a datasheet for the ic and look at the package drawings?

[Bargainhunter]

Sorry, the chip is not an encoder.
I have attached a diagram of the board.  The chip is located between A&B at 5 on the photo.

Right now I am practicing on a bad board with a bad chip. I will attempt to replace a bad chip with a new chip on a good board.

Thanks for all your help.

Chuck

[james_s]

Chip Kwick works pretty well, although you do have to make sure you clean it off the pads well or you can be surprised by how long the solder stays molten on the new part. It's interesting stuff, weird to see metal melt at such low temperature.

[janoc]

You mean that big quad flatpack on what is certainly a multilayer board? That's going to be a bitch to remove, even with a preheater.

Your cheap ZD-982 is likely not going to be up to the task with the lead free solder on that board. These kinds of jobs need a more serious firepower, look at e.g. the Quick 861DW that Dave has reviewed recently. That has 1000W heater, compared to the (sticker value) of 300 something of your ZD-982 ...

I have an Atten 858D+ which supposedly has 700W and it also struggles with larger parts, especially on multilayer boards.

[BrianHG]

He probably wants the chip for a home project since it has the HDCP keys embedded meaning it will work with any HDCP encrypted video source.

Otherwise, replacing that IC with a purchased equiv off the shelf IC wont have the HDCP keys inside and the projector will no longer work with HDCP video sources as long as the projector's firmware doesn't care that the replacement HDMI receiver IC has no HDCP keys before it begins to function.

[Bargainhunter]

Maybe I'm calling the chip a decoder by mistake.  The chip is an Analog Devices ADV7495B and is the HDMI chip that runs to the HDMI ports.

Sorry for any confusion.

Chuck

[BrianHG]

Analog Devices ADV7495B and is the HDMI chip that runs to the HDMI ports.

Bad chip number.

[amyk]

He probably wants the chip for a home project since it has the HDCP keys embedded meaning it will work with any HDCP encrypted video source.

Otherwise, replacing that IC with a purchased equiv off the shelf IC wont have the HDCP keys inside and the projector will no longer work with HDCP video sources as long as the projector's firmware doesn't care that the replacement HDMI receiver IC has no HDCP keys before it begins to function.

Alternatively, you can get HDMI decoders with keys from the various no-name "HDMI splitters" out there --- a lot of them also, not surprisingly, strip HDCP.

...it's not like the keys are secret anymore --- the master key was leaked nearly eight years ago.

[BrianHG]

...it's not like the keys are secret anymore --- the master key was leaked nearly eight years ago.

Ok, so then, order an Analog devices HDMI receiver/decoder with keys installed.... Let's see how far you get...
I doubt any other chip but the proper one will work in the projector...

[Rasz]

Analog Devices ADV7495B and is the HDMI chip that runs to the HDMI ports.

Bad chip number.

sure ;-)






its just insufficient heat, bumping hotair temp wont help, whole pcb must be warm, otherwise you will just pump heat to the whole board. This chip doesnt even have a ground island, should be 5 second pull, goes to show what garbage ZD-982 is ;(

[BrianHG]

...it's not like the keys are secret anymore --- the master key was leaked nearly eight years ago.

Ok, so then, order an Analog devices HDMI receiver/decoder with keys installed.... Let's see how far you get...
I doubt any other chip but the proper one will work in the projector...

Oooops, found  it.  Yup, keyed chips exist, oddly from AlibabaAliexpress in China??
Yet, not from any official Analog Devices distributers...

[janoc]

...it's not like the keys are secret anymore --- the master key was leaked nearly eight years ago.

Ok, so then, order an Analog devices HDMI receiver/decoder with keys installed.... Let's see how far you get...
I doubt any other chip but the proper one will work in the projector...

Oooops, found  it.  Yup, keyed chips exist, oddly from AlibabaAliexpress in China??
Yet, not from any official Analog Devices distributers...

You can probably guess why. AD is contractually forbidden to sell it to anyone but the HDMI carte...ehm...consortium licensees.

The Chinese chips are who knows what - at best grey market goods that are not supposed to be (re)sold (e.g. refurbed pulls or left over/stolen chips from a factory building consumer goods), at worst fakes and you lose your money.

[james_s]

If you buy the chips through ebay you'll get a refund if they turn out to be fakes.

The whole HDCP thing is absurd, it has been cracked wide open for years and almost nobody pirates content that way anyway. It's much easier to rip the bluray or DVD and bypass the whole HDMI chain. Trying to copy protect the whole chain is also fundamentally flawed because there is nothing stopping someone from opening the TV and intercepting the signal coming out of the HDMI decoder or the LVDS signal to the panel. It takes significantly more technological expertise but it is not beyond the range of a determined hobbyist and it only takes *one* person to rip the stream into an unprotected form that can be distributed. The only function of the copy protection is creating hassle for legitimate users.

[janoc]

If you buy the chips through ebay you'll get a refund if they turn out to be fakes.

Given that they are likely illegal to sell in the US I wouldn't be surprised if eBay just told you "tough luck, punk!".

(DMCA et al forbidding it as a "circumvention device" - it could certainly be used for legit stuff but good luck convincing a lawyer about that when you don't have HDCP license ...)

The whole HDCP thing is absurd, it has been cracked wide open for years and almost nobody pirates content that way anyway. It's much easier to rip the bluray or DVD and bypass the whole HDMI chain. Trying to copy protect the whole chain is also fundamentally flawed because there is nothing stopping someone from opening the TV and intercepting the signal coming out of the HDMI decoder or the LVDS signal to the panel. It takes significantly more technological expertise but it is not beyond the range of a determined hobbyist and it only takes *one* person to rip the stream into an unprotected form that can be distributed. The only function of the copy protection is creating hassle for legitimate users.

Yes, but you are completely missing the point. HDCP doesn't need to work well (or work at all). It only needs to be a sufficient hassle to circumvent it that it will put an average consumer off from seeking ways to pirate the content. And it has been very successful at that (together with the concerted campaign of Hollywood lawyers suing the pants off anyone who dares to do or sell anything they don't like - such as any gear designed to remove HDCP). Most people have barely the technical chops to connect the Bluray player to their TV and don't have a clue how to circumvent it.  It is the same story as Macrovision on VHS was all over again.

These days it is a bit of a moot point because few people buy or borrow Bluray disks anymore - video on demand services like Netflix have essentially completely killed it.  However, until recently it just wasn't practical to download a (good quality) Bluray (or even DVD) rip from the Internet due to the enormous sizes of those files and poor broadband services. And there the HDCP certainly managed to largely succeed at protecting the MPAA members' profits ...

[amyk]

Given that they are likely illegal to sell in the US I wouldn't be surprised if eBay just told you "tough luck, punk!".

How are they illegal if they can be found in just about every device that has an HDMI input...? Are those device also illegal to sell...?

[james_s]

Given that they are likely illegal to sell in the US I wouldn't be surprised if eBay just told you "tough luck, punk!".

(DMCA et al forbidding it as a "circumvention device" - it could certainly be used for legit stuff but good luck convincing a lawyer about that when you don't have HDCP license ...)

The whole HDCP thing is absurd, it has been cracked wide open for years and almost nobody pirates content that way anyway. It's much easier to rip the bluray or DVD and bypass the whole HDMI chain. Trying to copy protect the whole chain is also fundamentally flawed because there is nothing stopping someone from opening the TV and intercepting the signal coming out of the HDMI decoder or the LVDS signal to the panel. It takes significantly more technological expertise but it is not beyond the range of a determined hobbyist and it only takes *one* person to rip the stream into an unprotected form that can be distributed. The only function of the copy protection is creating hassle for legitimate users.

Yes, but you are completely missing the point. HDCP doesn't need to work well (or work at all). It only needs to be a sufficient hassle to circumvent it that it will put an average consumer off from seeking ways to pirate the content. And it has been very successful at that (together with the concerted campaign of Hollywood lawyers suing the pants off anyone who dares to do or sell anything they don't like - such as any gear designed to remove HDCP). Most people have barely the technical chops to connect the Bluray player to their TV and don't have a clue how to circumvent it.  It is the same story as Macrovision on VHS was all over again.

These days it is a bit of a moot point because few people buy or borrow Bluray disks anymore - video on demand services like Netflix have essentially completely killed it.  However, until recently it just wasn't practical to download a (good quality) Bluray (or even DVD) rip from the Internet due to the enormous sizes of those files and poor broadband services. And there the HDCP certainly managed to largely succeed at protecting the MPAA members' profits ...

Yeah right, ebay doesn't care, it's illegal to sell counterfeit goods too yet their site is chock full of it.

You're suffering the same misguided belief that the Hollywood types have, and missing the point. Consumers don't try to pirate by recording the HDMI output of a device, even though these days it's trivial to buy a $15 splitter that strips the HDCP. I bought mine from Amazon because I have an older projector that doesn't support HDCP, blocking me from using it to watch content that I have a legal right to watch. Consumers that wish to pirate simply hit up the torrent sites and download whatever they wish. Like I said, it only takes *one* technically minded cracker type to rip the content and post it, then anyone can download it. People are like electricity, they pick the path of least resistance, and that path is file sharing. I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone under the age of about 25 who hasn't downloaded torrents of shows they want to watch. HDCP causes problems for legitimate users and drives still more people to illegal file sharing because when you download the cracked file you get something that's more convenient with less restrictions than from the legitimate source. The copy protection does *nothing* to reduce piracy, absolutely nothing.

[andy2000]

I've bought a number of HDMI receiver chips on ebay without any problems.  They commonly get damaged by lightning and other voltage spikes. 

I wouldn't worry about any legal issues with buying small quantities of something that's inside every TV and HT receiver made in the last 10+ years.   It's not like you're manufacturing devices that do something illegal.  If there's a problem, ebay almost always sides with the buyer, particularly if the seller sold something he shouldn't have. 

[janoc]

Given that they are likely illegal to sell in the US I wouldn't be surprised if eBay just told you "tough luck, punk!".

How are they illegal if they can be found in just about every device that has an HDMI input...? Are those device also illegal to sell...?

The chips themselves aren't illegal. However, selling them without having a license can get you sued under DMCA and similar for trafficking in circumvention devices. That's not the same thing.

[janoc]

Yeah right, ebay doesn't care, it's illegal to sell counterfeit goods too yet their site is chock full of it.

And if that goods get reported that auction gets cancelled. Your point is? I hope you realize that they cannot police everything and know whether or not something is counterfeit unless someone reports it or complains about it.

You're suffering the same misguided belief that the Hollywood types have, and missing the point. Consumers don't try to pirate by recording the HDMI output of a device, even though these days it's trivial to buy a $15 splitter that strips the HDCP. I bought mine from Amazon because I have an older projector that doesn't support HDCP, blocking me from using it to watch content that I have a legal right to watch. Consumers that wish to pirate simply hit up the torrent sites and download whatever they wish. Like I said, it only takes *one* technically minded cracker type to rip the content and post it, then anyone can download it. People are like electricity, they pick the path of least resistance, and that path is file sharing. I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone under the age of about 25 who hasn't downloaded torrents of shows they want to watch. HDCP causes problems for legitimate users and drives still more people to illegal file sharing because when you download the cracked file you get something that's more convenient with less restrictions than from the legitimate source. The copy protection does *nothing* to reduce piracy, absolutely nothing.

Try to read the entire text you are replying to before you hit reply - I wrote exactly this thing too. However, what you don't realize is that when HDCP has been designed, downloading "from a torrent site" was not an option for most because the broadband simply wasn't there yet. We are talking year 2000 here, 18 years ago! Stuff like Bittorrent didn't even exist at that time, you could download from FTP sites and Napster was popular for music (it got shut down in 2002). Not exactly solution for downloading huge rips of a Bluray disk.

It has been pretty effective at what it was designed for about 10 years, making sure that the studios got their investment in the tech back. Today it is a pointless anachronism, I agree, but that's irrelevant. It has played its role already.