Author Topic: is rice method safe??  (Read 12215 times)

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Online SeanB

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Re: is rice method safe??
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2017, 05:10:18 pm »
I have both the 10kg bucket of silica gel, and this works well to dry small things by putting into the bucket for 24 hours.

The calcium chloride is available off the shelf, look at your local big box store for a cupboard demoisturiser/deodoriser, which is basically 300g of calcium chloride granules in a nice water tight housing, with a convenient reservoir for the liquid it turns into. Costs under $2 each for a single use, but worth keeping a few around for emergency use and a convenient large bucket with a lid that seals well.
 

Offline JPortici

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Re: is rice method safe??
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2017, 05:37:48 pm »
Yes, add rice and boil until cooked.

It is as safe as it is pointless.

Not pointless, accepting the hard truth is easier with a full stomach, after a nice risotto
 

Online BradC

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Re: is rice method safe??
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2017, 11:02:25 pm »
Silica gel removes moisture from the air unless it is in actual contact with the liquid. It can't possibly dry a wet phone faster than natural evaporation and a draught.

Twaddle. Evaporation serves to balance the humidity in the air with the surrounding conditions. If you pull water from the air evaporation happens faster to try and replace it. Silica gel lowers the humidity and thus speeds evaporation. Calcium Chloride does the same, but stronger and faster.
 
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Offline RGB255_0_0

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Re: is rice method safe??
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2017, 11:26:32 pm »
Silica gel removes moisture from the air unless it is in actual contact with the liquid. It can't possibly dry a wet phone faster than natural evaporation and a draught.

Twaddle. Evaporation serves to balance the humidity in the air with the surrounding conditions. If you pull water from the air evaporation happens faster to try and replace it. Silica gel lowers the humidity and thus speeds evaporation. Calcium Chloride does the same, but stronger and faster.
I'm failing to understand the thermodynamics of this concept. Can you explain?
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Offline timothyaag

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Re: is rice method safe??
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2017, 04:26:52 pm »
When I worked as a technician and someone called in with a still-wet device we told them to put it in rice. Whether it worked or not wasn't the point, it just seemed like they let the damn thing sit and dry rather than repeatedly try and power it on, plug it in the wall or try "cleaning it" with more liquid.
 

Online Fraser

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Re: is rice method safe??
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2017, 05:26:20 pm »
Ok, a real world story for you all.

A few years ago my colleague knocked over a full pint of water into her Dell laptop whilst it was running. I was on the phone at the time but quickly reached across to her desk, pulled the power lead, inverted the laptop, pulled the main battery and shook the unit to allow most water to egress. I then set about dismantling the whole laptop. I had it down to its component parts in around 15 minutes and disconnected the bios battery.

Each part of the laptop was gently shaken and patted dry with paper towels The laptop was then left to dry over a warm radiator for two days. I rebuilt the laptop on the third day and it worked fine. The indelicate shutdown via pulling the power and battery caused no hard disk corruption. That laptop is still working to this day and this happened in 2012.

Where did I find the water contamination inside ? All over the place, in the keyboard, in the hard disk connector, memory slots, under all BGA chips including the processor. It got everywhere.

Would rice have helped? No
Would Dessicant have helped ? No
Would shaking the water out and leaving complete  in a warm cupboard have helped ? No.

To save a laptop from damage the only truly effective path was that which I detailed above when saving my colleagues laptop. Never underestimate how much fluid a drowned laptop can hold in the nooks and crannies plus under chips. Basic evaporation does work if all power is removed and evaporation encouraged with warm air flow over the parts. If the laptop remains intact evaporation is much slower and less effective. The BIOS battery will also be causing harm on the motherboard.

If a laptop is drowned with anything but clean water you also need to wash its parts under a tap, but preferably de-ionised clean water to wash away the pollutants and leave just water for evaporation. Never submerge a hard disk in water. Wipe clean with a damp cloth. If necessary remove the PCB and wash it, but not the disk platter case ! Do not submerge speakers and microphones ! CD and DVR drives need to be disassembled for careful cleaning with water and IPA avoiding removal of lubrication in the process.

Keyboards can be a problem if sticky fluids are involved. The switch membrane gets contaminated and ruined.

The key to success in saving a drowned laptop is a fast response. Remove all power sources fast to reduce damage. Remove all contamination fast to avoid residue after drying. Open all parts of the laptop to air for good evaporation. Apply warm air flow over extended period of time. Correct Methodology and patience saves the day.

Fraser
« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 09:33:29 pm by Fraser »
 
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Offline CJay

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Re: is rice method safe??
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2017, 09:14:18 pm »
Ok, a real world story for you all.

Fraser

Exactly that, excellent advice and the same as mine to anyone who contacts me fast enough to have a 'just drowned' device, I've rescued a few.

Good quality, new isopropyl alcohol is a saviour too, washing a board down with clean water and then iso.

I've had several flash drives drowned in the washing and never lost one either.
 

Online Brumby

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Re: is rice method safe??
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2017, 05:21:36 am »
Ok, a real world story for you all.

A few years ago my colleague knocked over a full pint of water into her Dell laptop whilst it was running. I was on the phone at the time but quickly reached across to her desk, pulled the power lead, inverted the laptop, pulled the main battery and shook the unit to allow most water to egress. I then set about dismantling the whole laptop. I had it down to its component parts in around 15 minutes and disconnected the bios battery.

Each part of the laptop was gently shaken and patted dry with paper towels The laptop was then left to dry over a warm radiator for two days. I rebuilt the laptop on the third day and it worked fine. The indelicate shutdown via pulling the power and battery caused no hard disk corruption. That laptop is still working to this day and this happened in 2012.

Where did I find the water contamination inside ? All over the place, in the keyboard, in the hard disk connector, memory slots, under all BGA chips including the processor. It got everywhere.

Would rice have helped? No
Would Dessicant have helped ? No
Would shaking the water out and leaving complete  in a warm cupboard have helped ? No.

To save a laptop from damage the only truly effective path was that which I detailed above when saving my colleagues laptop. Never underestimate how much fluid a drowned laptop can hold in the nooks and crannies plus under chips. Basic evaporation does work if all power is removed and evaporation encouraged with warm air flow over the parts. If the laptop remains intact evaporation is much slower and less effective. The BIOS battery will also be causing harm on the motherboard.

If a laptop is drowned with anything but clean water you also need to wash its parts under a tap, but preferably de-ionised clean water to wash away the pollutants and leave just water for evaporation. Never submerge a hard disk in water. Wipe clean with a damp cloth. If necessary remove the PCB and wash it, but not the disk platter case ! Do not submerge speakers and microphones ! CD and DVR drives need to be disassembled for careful cleaning with water and IPA avoiding removal of lubrication in the process.

Keyboards can be a problem if sticky fluids are involved. The switch membrane gets contaminated and ruined.

The key to success in saving a drowned laptop is a fast response. Remove all power sources fast to reduce damage. Remove all contamination fast to avoid residue after drying. Open all parts of the laptop to air for good evaporation. Apply warm air flow over extended period of time. Correct Methodology and patience saves the day.

Fraser

Best post on this thread.

Step 1.  Remove power.  This not only minimises any chance of excessive voltage damage to any sensitive components from water conductivity - it also stops electrolysis and using multiple points across the laptop as sacrificial anodes!  The BIOS battery would not have a big effect - but removing it as soon as possible will limit what damage it might do.

Step 2.  Clean off any crap.  Drying off the water isn't exactly adequate if it's going to leave deposits behind.  This was made very clear in both videos.  Clean off the deposits - and then clean off the cleaners with IPA ... or at the very least distilled or demineralised water (if you must).

Step 3.  Dry out everything.  This is the point that everyone jumps to - but without doing Step 1 and Step 2, you are just kidding yourself - and the odds of further failure down the road is far greater.
 

Offline Inflex

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Re: is rice method safe??
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2017, 05:47:41 am »
Step 1.  Remove power.  This not only minimises any chance of excessive voltage damage to any sensitive components from water conductivity - it also stops electrolysis and using multiple points across the laptop as sacrificial anodes!  The BIOS battery would not have a big effect - but removing it as soon as possible will limit what damage it might do.

Which is why it's just so diddly-dee fun that phones more and more are embedding batteries in to them :(  iPhones are bad enough but there's a lot of high-end Androids that need quite a tear down before you can get to the battery.   

I repeatedly am having to post notices on the local town forum about what to do if their phone gets wet (if they want to salvage the data, I almost never "repair to use", 6 months later they blame you for what ever goes wrong).
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Online Brumby

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Re: is rice method safe??
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2017, 06:26:57 am »
Yeah.... My phone is a Galaxy S5.  Removable battery  :-+
My tablet is a cheapie ... and I will need a couple of minutes and a soldering iron to isolate that one.


Fortunuately, I've never had to deal with water problems with these...... so far.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 06:29:45 am by Brumby »
 

Offline JPortici

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Re: is rice method safe??
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2017, 06:57:07 am »
S5 is IP67, even with removable battery you shouldn't even care about water
 

Offline mos6502

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Re: is rice method safe??
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2017, 07:45:42 am »
Maybe drying is ok with clear water. But just drying won't help if the liquid contains acids, sugar or other crap. The residue after drying might be conductive, or could attack component pins and traces. You need to take it apart and clean it. Maybe, just maybe, dunking the laptop in a bucket full of isopropyl or denatured alcohol right after the spill would've worked.
for(;;);
 

Offline slurry

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Re: is rice method safe??
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2017, 07:46:29 am »
I have a container of silica gel but i would not drop my wet phone into this...

When i worked as cellphone repairman for like fifteen years ago (i'm getting old...) i used to rinse the mainboard of the phone in tap water then i drenched the phone in isopropyl alcohol, left it leaning against the warm soldering station and dry for an hour or two.
 

Offline SingedFingers

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Re: is rice method safe??
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2017, 12:29:25 pm »
Fraser is on the mark. I occasionally kill laptops doing stupid things and repair lots of laptops that have had stupid things done to them. When you sit in front of one for 10-12 hours a day that is inevitable. There are three signs of something I have identified that are end game for the design which is where the real problem lies:

1. Non removable battery. Step one is remove that always. If you can't remove it quickly, forget it. I incinerated a MacBook Pro after a spill. Nothing I could do other than watch it burn. No power isolation possibility.
2. Non removable display panel. If any liquid gets in that, you're up shit creek. Most things these days require an entire lid replacement which is expensive.
3. No provision for spills in the design. A lot of laptops and consumer electronics aren't designed with liquid ingress in mind. That means there is no effort to do anything other than blow up in your face if you spill anything in them.

I've killed a MacBook Pro just by spilling water on the table and it went underneath it. I have no confidence in Apple's design ability.

I didn't kill a Lenovo X201 by pouring a whole cup of coffee in it.  I'm actually typing on it now. Yanked the battery (safety first!), waited for it to drain from the built in spillage ducts, wiped the keyboard out with a wet wipe. The panel had a dark spot on the bottom right corner as I'd actually managed to pour it in the screen bezel. This was irritating but didn't need replacement so I bought a new panel for £19 when one turned up on eBay. Smelled of coffee for about a week but that has gone now.

Really though if your thing stops working if you pour some liquid in it, you bought the wrong thing. This is a very common failure mode for anything and to sell something without provision for it in the design is lazy and cheap.

No rice or silica is required if it's not a turd!
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 12:32:24 pm by SingedFingers »
 

Offline Inflex

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Re: is rice method safe??
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2017, 12:33:49 pm »

I've killed a MacBook Pro just by spilling water on the table and it went underneath it. I have no confidence in Apple's design ability.


It's an Apple feature, the design of the intake/cooling fans are such that they'll scoop up the delicious liquid and spray it all through the insides like a hippo poop splatter fest.
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Offline SingedFingers

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Re: is rice method safe??
« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2017, 12:35:26 pm »

I've killed a MacBook Pro just by spilling water on the table and it went underneath it. I have no confidence in Apple's design ability.


It's an Apple feature, the design of the intake/cooling fans are such that they'll scoop up the delicious liquid and spray it all through the insides like a hippo poop splatter fest.

That's probably about the best analogy there is actually. I turned it upside down to pull the battery and it rained on the logic board. There were flames coming out of it. Straight out the door onto the lawn.
 

Online Brumby

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Re: is rice method safe??
« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2017, 01:10:32 pm »
S5 is IP67, even with removable battery you shouldn't even care about water

After all the years I've been playing around with electricity, it's hard to not care about water.
 

Online SeanB

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Re: is rice method safe??
« Reply #42 on: January 10, 2017, 01:27:31 pm »

I've killed a MacBook Pro just by spilling water on the table and it went underneath it. I have no confidence in Apple's design ability.


It's an Apple feature, the design of the intake/cooling fans are such that they'll scoop up the delicious liquid and spray it all through the insides like a hippo poop splatter fest.

Scary thing was coming around a corner and there was mamma Hippo in the road. She might not have felt like doing the brown spread, but we certainly were close to needing it after we stopped, reversed rapidly back and got the heck out of there till another vehicle came past from the other direction. If she decides your car is in the way she will destroy it, then walk over the pieces and carry on again.
 

Offline SingedFingers

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Re: is rice method safe??
« Reply #43 on: January 10, 2017, 02:08:32 pm »
Every time I hear about South Africa it makes me more glad I don't live there :)

 

Online CatalinaWOW

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Re: is rice method safe??
« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2017, 02:34:56 pm »
For many of us on this forum there is another alternative that may make sense.  Given the time and effort required to get some of these devices open and unpowered getting it dry first may be faster.  Then clean.  It will be harder to clean after drying, but life is never perfect.

How to get it dry?  Pull a vacuum while keeping it warm. 
 

Offline Inflex

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Re: is rice method safe??
« Reply #45 on: January 10, 2017, 02:38:47 pm »
Scary thing was coming around a corner and there was mamma Hippo in the road. She might not have felt like doing the brown spread, but we certainly were close to needing it after we stopped, reversed rapidly back and got the heck out of there till another vehicle came past from the other direction. If she decides your car is in the way she will destroy it, then walk over the pieces and carry on again.

Reminds me of my years out at Pilanesberg.  I do miss the "good" times of ZA.
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Offline timothyaag

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Re: is rice method safe??
« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2017, 02:52:17 pm »
Maybe drying is ok with clear water. But just drying won't help if the liquid contains acids, sugar or other crap. The residue after drying might be conductive, or could attack component pins and traces. You need to take it apart and clean it. Maybe, just maybe, dunking the laptop in a bucket full of isopropyl or denatured alcohol right after the spill would've worked.

For us, telling people to let it dry was to keep them from messing with it, with the implication they would bring it in for us to actually clean and properly dry. "Put it in rice until you get here." Looking back, we did then have a few stray grains of rice to clean, but it was the most effective way to keep them away from their phones. The amount of people who told me they tried power cycling and charging after dropping their phone in the lake, a mug of coffee or a pan of hot fried-chicken oil is crazy.
 

Offline Inflex

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Re: is rice method safe??
« Reply #47 on: January 10, 2017, 03:04:03 pm »
The amount of people who told me they tried power cycling and charging after dropping their phone in the lake, a mug of coffee or a pan of hot fried-chicken oil is crazy.

Or... "It was working for a few minutes after...and then it died...[ so you should be able to fix it, right? ]  "
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Offline elecman14

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Re: is rice method safe??
« Reply #48 on: January 10, 2017, 03:17:04 pm »
You also could probably do a low temperature bake to help remove the moisture. The components and battery should be rated to at least 40 or 50 C. It may help speed up the drying process. It is a fairly common practice to bake components and PCBs before re-flow depending on storage and MSL level. Dealing with the ionic contamination from the tea is the other problem  :palm:.  This is the reason I have a water resistance "rugged" smart phone.
 

Offline KhronX

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Re: is rice method safe??
« Reply #49 on: January 12, 2017, 09:51:24 am »
I'm... (still) almost shocked to see people recommend disconnecting the battery, not to mention rinsing / baking the keyboard... In a MACBOOK  :palm: :palm: :palm:

In many other cases (ie. "real" laptops, not glorified tablets), yes, but... Well, how's that gonna help the OP, i wonder?  ::)

i accidentally droped tea mug,with hot tea.into my my macbook air 13.
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