Keithley 2001 Meter went for Cal working, Arrived Dead

[smgvbest]

Hi
I put this here because I did repair this meter and the issue was the memory needed to be reseated.
I ran it for 2 weeks staight plus on/off test and never a failure.

So, I just sent my Keithley 2001 in for a cal to Top Dog Test and it left here fully working. Passed all Self tests and actually measured DC/AC/Resistance all as good as my Keysight 34465, Rigol 3068 and HP 34401. I wanted this to be my reference meter hence the cal.   
 
I just got notified it arrive dead, won't read, fails all self tests.    they of course wanted to know if i wanted it repaired which i said no, ship it back

Has any one ran into a problem like this send a meter out for cal.
I packed it well,  actually in a BK Precision box with foam that fit it perfectly so I'm not sure what would have happened shipping wise.
they didn't mention shipping damage

This is not saying anything about this company I just am wondering if anyone has had issues like this

[coromonadalix]

The box must have been dropped flat or badly shaken in transportation, even if the box is not deformed.

If you knew how sometimes they work, or pack the van trailers,  i've seen some carriers being very "non careful" with packages ...

In the past has a spare time i have worked at two carriers,  boy i've seen bad things happen, even an tv box with fork lift holes on the side

[Electro Detective]

If they didn't mention shipping damage... and that's not hard to spot even if externally the package looks ok,
the Cal place may either be trying to drum up some extra work ('jobs for the boys' )
and or someone dropped or zapped it on the bench.

Either way, get it back, open er up and see what the go is, before sending it out for Round 11   

[smgvbest]

I did ask them about shipping damage and they said there was none.

I am afraid of them trying to drum up repair work.
The Orginal Error was a Comm Error message that was it.   that was the memory chip needing re-seating was all.  it worked great since.

I also asked if they are sure it was my meter,  I gave them my SN and asked to verify.

But yeh,  I already said to send it back.

when I get it back and if its been zapped.  that could only happen on their bench.   it went from reading a 2v cal voltage to the box so working  there is no way it was zapped in transit that I know of.

[bitseeker]

Curious to find out what happened as well. I've seen their name around a fair bit, but don't have any experience with them to confirm or deny anything.

It's possible that something just came loose inside. Hopefully, that's all it is.

[TiN]

Comms error means brains can't talk to legs.

Sometimes, esp on old meters the cable between boards get dodgy, resulting in your comms errors.
Other times DC/AC/DC converter (ERG potted brick or little PCBA on digital board) that powers VFD glass crap out, making CPU to go sick and resulting same comm errors, that happen to units I serviced (more than one) .
Or ADC board went loose, that will result comm error. Or the TLP opto on analog board went poo, also comm error.
Or the analog board caps leaked their goo, and ruined everything. 

2001 is meter with lots of fun to have...

[bitseeker]

TiN knows. He's Dr. DMM. Brings 'em back from the dead, buried, and decaying, even.

[Zucca]

smgvbest only when you will open the box you will know.
The rest is just speculation.

take pictures of everything, package close, open, package open 10% or do an unboxing video even better.

Keep us posted.

[SoundTech-LG]

Purchased an Agilent/Keysight counter from them 53230A  and it was not cheap...  also a replacement VFD for HP E3631A Power Supply. It will be good to know what you find. Good for them to know they are under scrutiny here.

[smgvbest]

Ok, here's the update.

I called up and spoke to Van today.   On the Display it has a Overload showing,  it would respond over GPIB but otherwise dead.   he believed it had taken a hit on the front end either voltage or current and blew the front end.

I asked how a meter that left working could take such a hit in the shipping box and said he could not answer that question.
He did tell me it was package very well and there was no sign of any shipping Damage.

This lead me to a new question.   Is it possible that it took a bad bump and something got knocked loose on the inside?
He did not think this was possible because of how it was packaged.

I ask if he could check and he asked if I was giving permission to proceed and open the meter up.   I said yes to take a look.

A hour or so later I got a email with the attached photo

Well, short story (yes, now I do the short story)
it did take a bad bump in shipping and the ADC board got knocked loose

He replaced it and it now powers up fine and they are letting stay powered to to begin the cal procedure on it. 
He's going to secure it for return shipping.

I asked for pre and post call data for it as I want to see how I did on it's comprehensive cal
I believe the total cost is 125 for cal+post data + 25 for pre data so 150 total.

If anyone is interested when I get the Keithley back I'll share the pre/post data here

[bitseeker]

Thanks for the update, Sandra. By "replaced it" do you mean he reseated the original board or actually replaced it with another one?

I've seen lots of things in PCs and servers come loose during shipping. It can be quite an ordeal for equipment.

[smgvbest]

Yes, reseated it,  much better choice of words

[Specmaster]

I have a HP3478A that needed the memory retaining battery replaced, during which it lost the cal data. It did work OK but it kept flashing "CAL" as it could not be relied upon to be 100% accurate. I sent it away to RS calibration services on what was supposed to be a 5 day door to door service for recalibration. After many phone calls and emails after the 5 days had elapsed and no sign of the meter, I was told that it would not calibrate, it kept crashing a wiping out any calibration they had managed to do.

I gave them the links to the service manual and also to the software data that they needed for their Fluke calibration tool.

In the end I had a long telephone chat with the engineer doing the calibration and he told me the meter was beyond economic repair but if I liked to select another from their catalogue, they would give a free calibration with it? I though t all new meters were meant to be calibrated by the manufacturers anyway. I declined and they returned my 3478A FOC.

I sat down, armed with the service manual, a AD584-M, A MS7221 calibrator and some precision resistors and set about calibrating it myself and within a couple of hours it was was done and it passed the self test on switch on. This was about 3 months ago and it still works flawlessly, since then I have gotten a Fluke 8840A and 3478A agrees with the reading on the 8840A and within the last few weeks I purchased a new Brymen BM867 which is a 5.5 digit meter and it also agrees with the 3478A and the Fluke 8840A.

So my question is why could they not get it to calibrate? I manged it with ease, in fact it was so easy I wondered why didn't I do it myself in the first place?

[texaspyro]

ERG potted brick or little PCBA on digital board

I have found that ERG is very good about keeping ancient converters in stock (or at least orderable).  I had some Tek 1503B/C TDRs with bad EL display inverters and some VFD inverters used in another product (can't remember which) and they had them in stock or built up a batch.   There was a reasonable minimum order.

[bitseeker]

Yes, reseated it,  much better choice of words

Ah, yes. Glad that's all it was. Phew!

[bitseeker]

So my question is why could they not get it to calibrate? I manged it with ease, in fact it was so easy I wondered why didn't I do it myself in the first place?

I dunno. Maybe because it wasn't auto-everything simply by connecting it to their calibrator and hitting a button.

[TiN]

Comprehensive cal is NOT enough for serviced K2001. Make sure lab will do manufacturing low level calibration, otherwise your AC and ACI/DCI functions will not be adjusted/calibrated to spec.
Equipment requirements for low-level cal are same as user level cal ("comprehensive" in Keithley words) plus the signal generator to outout 2VAC 1Hz (57XX MFC can't output below 10Hz).

[Gyro]

...

A hour or so later I got a email with the attached photo

Well, short story (yes, now I do the short story)
it did take a bad bump in shipping and the ADC board got knocked loose

He replaced it and it now powers up fine and they are letting stay powered to to begin the cal procedure on it. 
He's going to secure it for return shipping.

...

I'd take that as a total design fail by Keithley! 

There's no way that, in a properly designed piece of equipment, a board should be able to pop off like that! Just looking at it, the only mechanical support and retention is at the short edges of a long PCB, and then just flexible (board to board?) plastic clips. Board deflection must be huge under mechanical shock, most of it being absorbed on the connector pins and solder joints (and the smd parts). I'm surprised they don't get a lot of doa.

I'd have been crucified if I'd implemented something like that in a piece of consumer or industrial gear.

[bd139]

Have to agree. Philips were good at making stuff that disassembled itself in transit. Sounds like they hired some Philips engineers.

[mcinque]

Happy to hear that. I wonder if we should start to apply shockproof stickers on our packages to avoid this kind of issues...

[bd139]

A few years back i was working with someone who was making tracking devices with GPS and accelerometers for exactly that purpose. It’d track when something was buggered. They were just shipping them in the boxes and working out which courier was the most shit.

Hermes won.

[Gyro]

Those shockwatch stickers rely on you being a company and being in a position to claim full value off the shipper (or for something unavoidably shock sensitive that shouldn't be put into service - like old removable disk platters).

As an end user, I'd trade them for the manufacturer not skimping on shock and vibration testing in the first place.


P.S. Hermes won?     Ok, I've never had a problem with Hermes but you'd hope it would be someone high cost like Fedex!

[bd139]

Sorry I should say lost. Hermes won the prize of most likely to fuck up your stuff. I think UPS won he least likely.

[smgvbest]

Comprehensive cal is NOT enough for serviced K2001. Make sure lab will do manufacturing low level calibration, otherwise your AC and ACI/DCI functions will not be adjusted/calibrated to spec.
Equipment requirements for low-level cal are same as user level cal ("comprehensive" in Keithley words) plus the signal generator to outout 2VAC 1Hz (57XX MFC can't output below 10Hz).

Thanks, I will double check with them that it is a low level cal they are doing.
I did the comprehensive cal on it myself with a pair of precision resistors and 2 AD584 references in series for 20V and divider resistors on the 2.5v to get it to 2v.   actually did quite well to my surprise.
first cal I did on a meter.

[TiN]

User cal do not calibrate/adjust ACV/ACI/DCI at all

[smgvbest]

I understand that a user cal (comprehensive cal in the calibration guide) does not calibrate any AC reading beyond simple zero I believe.

I am merely stating I did the user calibration as I don't have the equipment to do a low level cal and for DCV/DCI/2WRES/4WRES and after doing so it preformed well which is what lead me to sending it off for the low level cal.

They sent me a sample cal data at my request and they do use the required equipment for a low level cal and provided all cal data for all ranges in the low level cal.

my apologies if I'm not stating this clearly.

[TiN]

No problems, just to make sure for other readers, to understand the difference.
It would be interesting to see data. K2001 can often be tricky to adjust to best uncertainty.

[smgvbest]

Good Point on for clarification
I will post cal data here when I have it

[smgvbest]

No problems, just to make sure for other readers, to understand the difference.
It would be interesting to see data. K2001 can often be tricky to adjust to best uncertainty.

@TiN

I was looking to build your Dual LM399 Ref and ordered the boards from OHSPARK but when I look at the schematic non of the CAP's have their values or package info.
is it somewhere else and I'm missing it???

[TiN]

Sorry for confusion. That design (LM399) is somewhat a draft, rather than finished project. I admit of never properly testing it to determine optimal caps/resistor values. So use your common sense. LM399 schematics is typical, covered on EEVBlog many times already.

[smgvbest]

@Tin,
I heard from them about the cal and they are doing the low level cal.

[Electro Detective]

Good news you're not up for a repair sting on top of the Cal 

LOL it appears we may have to install anti-static foam covered aluminum column PCB supports inside test gear shipped out from now on, and 24/7 internal web camera
so it gets to the Cal labs and returns in one piece 


FWIW: Courtesy 'trust no one'  gents tip to any tech ladies reading this, sending out gear to mostly ANYWHERE > consider using a male ID name on the items,  i.e. James Doe instead of Jayne Doe

They'll think twice before they try an 'overservice' service because clued gentlemen may challenge it 
...and may/can/WILL b!tchslap a BS vending deceiver harder    

[smgvbest]

So I got notified today the cal is complete and on it's way back to me.
They emailed me the cal results and I'm attaching below with some redaction done on the doc of course(just personal information)
total including return shipping & pre/post cal data was $180 

gist was it was received in-cal and left in-cal.

Once it's back in my home lab I'll be really happy and I'll have a good reference meter and a 7.5 digit at that
it will be good to compare some of my voltage references as well and precision resistors to see how the Keysight 34465A, HP 34401A and Rigol 3068A do compared now to the Keithley 2001

Overall at this point, Yeh, had drama at the start (hence this thread) but in the end after figuring out the issue thing went smooth and they've been great in communications.
I had allot of questions and they answered them quickly, usually within a few hours for email questions

[bitseeker]

Glad to hear everything went smoothly once they got that board seated back down. The quick communications is good to hear as well.

[Mr. Scram]

Would a knock like this meter received be enough to ruin crystal or reference ageing?

[Electro Detective]

It's hard to believe in 2018 delivery companies still deploy troglodytes and clueless inconsiderate knuckle draggers to perform sensitive equipment dropoffs (literally) 

I have resorted to packing items 'box within box' style, stringed up, with large clear  "TO" and "FROM" details in multiples

All that's left is Tracking and prayer...   

[bd139]

Delivery is a race to the bottom industry. They're working out creative new ways of not paying their stuff as much every minute of every day.

[mcinque]

Those shockwatch stickers rely on you being a company and being in a position to claim full value off the shipper

This is true, but the courier can't know exactly if there is a company behind.
And every time the package is moved noone would take in responsibility something visibly shocked.
I talked to couriers: no one would accept a visibly broken package on his truck because it would be his responsibility if the recipient refuse it.

As an end user, I'd trade them for the manufacturer not skimping on shock and vibration testing in the first place.

Indeed.

[Bashstreet]

Sorry I should say lost. Hermes won the prize of most likely to fuck up your stuff. I think UPS won he least likely.

I cannot agree more.

If you in U.K AVOID hermes what ever it costs.

I bough some vintage computer equipment and it took 18 days to arrive (Sender bough 48 hour delivery) 
After endless attempts to track it down it finally arrived.
It was littered with puncture marks and dents like it had been used as football by chisel wielding maniac.
It is miracle no damage was done to the equipment...

Hermes.. Avoid at all costs..

[bd139]

I meant to post this before actually. This is my original content about Hermes...

[Kleinstein]

Some packages get quite a hit on transport. A drop from something like 1 m would not be so unusual and may not be visible from the outside if landing flat.

There is a small chance a large (e.g. like 1 MHz) crystal could be damaged on such a hit. For a DC reference I would not expect that much change. There might be an effect on parts flapping around in the breeze - like standing TO220's or long wire THT resistors. So in a DMM I would be more worried about the display and shunts than the LM399. Also MLCC damage due to board bending could be a problem.

From the pictures the K2001 construction does not look that bad. There are retainers at at least 3 points.  For the shown damage it takes quite a hit.

For shipping it sometimes helps if the box does not look too robust from the outside. 

[Mr. Scram]

Some packages get quite a hit on transport. A drop from something like 1 m would not be so unusual and may not be visible from the outside if landing flat.

There is a small chance a large (e.g. like 1 MHz) crystal could be damaged on such a hit. For a DC reference I would not expect that much change. There might be an effect on parts flapping around in the breeze - like standing TO220's or long wire THT resistors. So in a DMM I would be more worried about the display and shunts than the LM399. Also MLCC damage due to board bending could be a problem.

From the pictures the K2001 construction does not look that bad. There are retainers at at least 3 points.  For the shown damage it takes quite a hit.

For shipping it sometimes helps if the box does not look too robust from the outside. 

What about "resetting" ageing? I think that can occur before actual perceptible damage appears.

[PA0PBZ]

Going a bit off-topic here but I don't think it deserves its own thread:

I was thinking about the word 'replace' and bitseekers question if the board was reseated or swapped with another one… Well, isn't re-place saying it was placed again? I know, if I say replace I also mean that it was swapped for another one but suddenly it seems strange? So why do we use replace if we mean swapped?

That's all, I will let myself out now.

[glarsson]

Also move vs. remove.

[Specmaster]

Going a bit off-topic here but I don't think it deserves its own thread:

I was thinking about the word 'replace' and bitseekers question if the board was reseated or swapped with another one… Well, isn't re-place saying it was placed again? I know, if I say replace I also mean that it was swapped for another one but suddenly it seems strange? So why do we use replace if we mean swapped?

That's all, I will let myself out now.

No, I think replace and swap are not quite the same thing. Replace means replace the existing with another that was either laying around or purchased as a new replacement, but swapping to my mind is taking a board out of another unit and swapping the boards over to see if the same problem remains, or does the problem move to the other unit with the suspect board fitted?

Does that make sense or should I let myself out 

[PA0PBZ]

Oh, this is going to get complicated 

Place = put in place, so replace is put in place again?

*disclaimer: not native English 

[coromonadalix]

place or not replace that's the question  loll

[Specmaster]

Its complicated because language is in itself complicated, words can take on new meanings in certain conditions and I think its has to be contextual based to grasp an idea of what and how the word is being used. I think we need to leave it right there or as you rightly said, it's "going to get complicated" over what??

[Mr. Scram]

It seems replacing can mean both. Swapping is more explicitly changing one part for another. Maybe reattaching is more accurate for "placing once more"?

[Specmaster]

I meant to post this before actually. This is my original content about Hermes...

Hermes certainly have it in for you don't they? I don't have too much of a problem with them these days but they do have a very high turnover of staff and thats because most of them are self employed and the conditions that are forced to accept are basically crap and none of us would accept what they have to put up with in order to try and support their families.

[bd139]

We have the same guy and have done for at least 5 years and he’s a cunt.

[bitseeker]

In English, as in other languages, words can have one or more senses (i.e., meanings).

Replace has three common senses:

1 : to restore to a former place or position

    replace cards in a file

2 : to take the place of especially as a substitute or successor
3 : to put something new in the place of

    replace a worn carpet

As Specmaster said, the correct sense must be deduced from the context in which the word is used.

[Electro Detective]

I meant to post this before actually. This is my original content about Hermes...

Hermes certainly have it in for you don't they? I don't have too much of a problem with them these days

but they do have a very high turnover of staff and thats because most of them are self employed and the conditions that are forced to accept are basically crap
and none of us would accept what they have to put up with in order to try and support their families.

That's no excuse to treat other peoples items like crap just because they put themselves in a situation where they are being shafted by some ratbag run delivery circus

In fact they are a worse lot than their crummy employers, and should beware they don't get 'dropped' and their vehicle trashed by an irate receiver    catching them in the act

 

[smgvbest]

Just to finalize my original post
I recieved the 2001 back from Cal and everything looks good.  It's powered on and functioning fine.
I've been out of town so it sat waiting for me for a good part of this week
It's been powered on now for about 24hrs as has my voltage reference.

I have it hooked up to a 10V precision voltage Source.  According to it's cal sheet, it is outputting 10.0000025 Vdc at 20.7c
My room temp is 19.8c and the 2001 is reading 10.000078 Vdc

[Specmaster]

Excellent, job done.