Author Topic: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?  (Read 51283 times)

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Online EEVblog

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #200 on: February 14, 2016, 01:26:06 pm »
With regard to the video run times, I believe Louis has explained this in at least one of his videos. He tends to record them as live streams, warts and all. Post capture editing and encoding can be a time consuming process as I feel sure Dave can attest. Louis is interested in getting his experiences onto YT as quickly as possible. He has a life to live after all.

If I wanted to pump out several videos a day, or had other commitments etc, then I'd be doing the live stream stuff too.
In Louis's case it's exactly what you should do. Same for Chris Gammel's Contextual Electronics course.
But for most of the stuff I do I find recording many short clips and post editing a better method that of course ultimately produces a much better result.
Editing is not the huge amount of time as most people seem to assume.
Even a 1 hour video with hundreds of clips, doesn't take much longer than the video itself to edit. So maybe 90 minutes tops for 60 minutes worth of footage, a bit longer if I have to gather and insert screen captures etc.
I notice jump cuts in many of Louis's videos that seem to be post edited, they don't seem to be a recording pause button?


 

Offline SeanB

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #201 on: February 14, 2016, 02:42:14 pm »
One thing I noticed in Louis's videos is that he doesn't use static control. No wrist strap, no anti static mat, etc.

NYC is pretty humid, so natural static control. Note he uses a dehumidifier indoors for air control, and uses air filters to get dust and dirt out. Humid air is free static control.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #202 on: February 14, 2016, 10:06:56 pm »
Humid air is free static control.
This is a joke right? Tell me you are not serious?
Ever heard that pure demineralised or condensated water does NOT conduct electricity?
Do you really think that moist in the air has impurities in it?  :palm:
Humid air conducts not a single electron and is useless for any static discharge prevention.
 

Offline c4757p

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #203 on: February 14, 2016, 10:16:52 pm »
The conductivity of pure water is not zero; a few places I checked agree that the conductivity of pure water is about 6uS/m, which is quite significant for dissipating small amounts of charge. Couldn't find anything on the conductivity of humid air, but it'll certainly be higher than that of dry air with the quite conductive water added.

Also consider that it's not just the humid air that dissipates charge (in fact you may be correct about its contribution being negligible), it'll be the moisture that air adds to surfaces...

Anecdotally, static shocks around the house are way worse when the air is dry...
« Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 10:18:46 pm by c4757p »
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Online Cubdriver

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #204 on: February 14, 2016, 10:19:04 pm »
Humid air is free static control.
This is a joke right? Tell me you are not serious?
Ever heard that pure demineralised or condensated water does NOT conduct electricity?
Do you really think that moist in the air has impurities in it?  :palm:
Humid air conducts not a single electron and is useless for any static discharge prevention.

And yet strangely, in the wintertime when the air is dry I can't seem to move without generating a static charge that results in a spark when I touch something grounded, and this never seems to occur in the summertime, when it's much more humid.  Simply an observation.  (Though I'd think it gets pretty dry in NYC this time of year too - I'm only 50 miles or so away)

-Pat

Edit - fix typo
« Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 11:49:46 pm by Cubdriver »
If it jams, force it.  If it breaks, you needed a new one anyway...
 

Offline helius

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #205 on: February 14, 2016, 10:23:13 pm »
Conductivity is completely irrelevant. Humid air is full of floating particles that can carry charge: their electrostatic attraction and repulsion forces are what neutralize static charged surfaces, similar to an ion generator.
 

Offline vze1lryy

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #206 on: February 15, 2016, 04:17:29 am »
I notice jump cuts in many of Louis's videos that seem to be post edited, they don't seem to be a recording pause button?

I started this channel out of frustration with the lack of educational videos on YouTube for this subject matter. Most were promotional, watch me do something at 20x speed with techno music, or watch me do it with the camera in the corner of the room, and not explain anything. Then at the end they show something working. Those videos sucked! They were 2-5 minutes but  they sucked. I searched for information, I found the video, and I learned nothing. It was just noise.

I figured I would do the opposite. You can see the mistakes, the decisions I make in the troubleshooting process, the thought process that leads to that decision, what tools make things easier vs. harder. I went for the closest thing there was to interactive experience, so no editing. I get a lot of comments that YouTube is for short videos and that my channel will fail with long videos, but I log in and see that my average viewtime is ten minutes per video. So on average a viewer spends more time watching one of these than double the entire length of other videos. On the 1, 2, and 3 hour board debugging videos 24% to 33% of the viewers watch the entire thing from beginning to end, which shocks me... people actually get home at 7 at night and sit there until 10 watching me screw with some motherboard. What a world. :)

The edits are only when a customer walks in, I answer the phone, or have to go to the bathroom. For the most part it is all live, sans me cutting out myself taking a whiz. The wireless mic setup got me in trouble with that a couple of times.. talk about embarrassing reuploads!
Louis Rossmann
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Offline vze1lryy

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #207 on: February 15, 2016, 04:20:13 am »
In terms of static, since I have already been discredited as an engineer and technician ;)

I don't do much for ESD protection besides common sense. i sit next to something that is grounded, I regularly touch it. If it is one of those days where I feel static everytime I touch something, I make it a habit to touch that grounded item. I do not grab boards by the top/bottom, I grab by edges. I don't have a cat sitting on my shoulder nuzzling me while wearing outdoor jacket during the videos...

ESD is something. If I were at a processor fabrication plant, or doing data recovery on flash memory, I might care more. But at this level, just basic awareness of environment does it for me.

In terms of a wrist strap, if I had to attach and reattach something everytime I had to move I would probably find a new profession. I would fix nothing, and then the real damage to this equipment would occur, when all of it went to some Apple store where they throw $1000s into ewaste bin everytime a single TON resistor leading to a buck controller IC blows..
Louis Rossmann
Component level motherboard repair technician.
 

Offline c4757p

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #208 on: February 15, 2016, 04:46:26 am »
I would fix nothing, and then the real damage to this equipment would occur, when all of it went to some Apple store where they throw $1000s into ewaste bin everytime a single TON resistor leading to a buck controller IC blows..

:clap:

Okay, whatever I may have said about your videos... you get serious props from me for being one of the few people in the electronics industry who actively reduce waste instead of adding to it. :-+
No longer active here - try the IRC channel if you just can't be without me :)
 

Offline Fraser

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #209 on: February 15, 2016, 05:25:11 am »
Just watched another three of Louis's videos this evening. Once again I found them interesting and informative.

I have subscribed and must say that I am thoroughly enjoying all of the videos that I have watched.

Many thanks Louis for going to the trouble to produce these entertaining videos, and for spending your hard earned cash on decent AV equipment in order to make them.

Fraser
 

Offline lukaq

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #210 on: February 15, 2016, 09:37:05 am »
I have subscribed and must say that I am thoroughly enjoying all of the videos that I have watched.
Same here

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #211 on: February 15, 2016, 11:24:23 am »
The conductivity of pure water is not zero; a few places I checked agree that the conductivity of pure water is about 6uS/m, which is quite significant for dissipating small amounts of charge. Couldn't find anything on the conductivity of humid air, but it'll certainly be higher than that of dry air with the quite conductive water added.
Yes theoretically it might conduct badly. BUT would you seriously recommend something like that as a professional and viable solution to an ESD problem.
Would you advise using humid air in a ESD workplace risking thousands of $ on components?
You do know the ESD guideline is around 1M resistance between body and ground?
This kind of BS should be stopped as soon as possible or newbies and other people will make another myth of this that has to be busted.  :--
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #212 on: February 15, 2016, 12:51:32 pm »
The conductivity of pure water is not zero; a few places I checked agree that the conductivity of pure water is about 6uS/m, which is quite significant for dissipating small amounts of charge. Couldn't find anything on the conductivity of humid air, but it'll certainly be higher than that of dry air with the quite conductive water added.
Yes theoretically it might conduct badly. BUT would you seriously recommend something like that as a professional and viable solution to an ESD problem.
Would you advise using humid air in a ESD workplace risking thousands of $ on components?
You do know the ESD guideline is around 1M resistance between body and ground?
This kind of BS should be stopped as soon as possible or newbies and other people will make another myth of this that has to be busted.  :--
Despite elevated air humidity reduces the number of triboelectric discharges perceived by us, ICs can be damaged with a lot less voltage than the kV we can feel. On the other hand, humid air allows for a lot less static charge buildup on the surroundings. Therefore the idea is not entirely ludicrous but the key concern is having a reliable protection and how much it matters for your day-to-day activities.

In case of a repair shop, this may be a red herring or not, as such damages could potentially be covered under warranty (Fix --> Works --> Two-days-later: broken with no visible cause), unless the discharge causes damage that will manifest only after a very long time (where it becomes very hard to find the exact root cause). If you see yourself re-doing work all the time on devices that broken after a few days with no apparent reason, you may want to consider adopting additional ESD safety measurements as one more barrier against losing money (and reputation) in re-work.

In terms of a wrist strap, if I had to attach and reattach something everytime I had to move I would probably find a new profession. I would fix nothing, and then the real damage to this equipment would occur, when all of it went to some Apple store where they throw $1000s into ewaste bin everytime a single TON resistor leading to a buck controller IC blows..
Louis, in my experience you end up getting used to attach-retach the damn thing all the time, but it is a nuisance - in your particular setup an ESD ionizer is probably a lot more convenient, provided you keep the current grounding procedures you already do. These things are in the range of hundreds of dollars, but if you have the inclination and time you can always make one yourself for cheap (mine uses PC power supply case and generates about 6kV).
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline vinicius.jlantunes

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #213 on: February 15, 2016, 01:04:15 pm »
Why not use one of those wireless ESD wrist straps?  8)

(just kidding of course)

Offline Ian.M

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #214 on: February 15, 2016, 01:18:05 pm »
I would think ESD grounding straps on your shoes would be fairly effective, in conjunction with an ESD floor mat at the bench, as its rare to be sitting working at a bench without at least one foot on the floor.   Of course it doesn't offer the grounding integrity of a wrist-strap, but it would be far superior to the current situation.
 

Offline c4757p

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #215 on: February 15, 2016, 02:00:26 pm »
For what it's worth, like Louis I've found "just using common sense" to be good protection against ESD. I made a conscious effort about a year or so ago to become more aware of ESD hazards in the lab, and since then I have not fried a single thing. None of this 'awareness' involved a grounding strap. I just pay attention to my likely potential with respect to a device I'm about to touch (am I heavily insulated from it, like by wearing thick shoes? have I done anything to pick up charge, like walking across carpet?), and make an effort to equalize my potential with the environment around the item before touching it.

If I carry an item to the workbench, I keep away from the item's conductors, and set it onto the ESD mat for safe discharge before grounding myself to a scope BNC or something.

If I carry an item away from the workbench, I make contact with its largest conductive/grounded bulk as I walk, so as to equalize charge with myself (next best thing to a slow discharge at destination, since the destination has no ESD mat this time). At the destination I discharge again while still holding it, so any ESD that does flow goes through me and then goes into the device's ground, which on anything with decent grounding is one of the least susceptible nodes. Probably helps as well that I'm almost never wearing shoes, so the isolation voltage between me and the area around me is relatively low ;D
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #216 on: February 15, 2016, 04:25:44 pm »
For what it's worth, like Louis I've found "just using common sense" to be good protection against ESD. I made a conscious effort about a year or so ago to become more aware of ESD hazards in the lab, and since then I have not fried a single thing. None of this 'awareness' involved a grounding strap. I just pay attention to my likely potential with respect to a device I'm about to touch (am I heavily insulated from it, like by wearing thick shoes? have I done anything to pick up charge, like walking across carpet?), and make an effort to equalize my potential with the environment around the item before touching it.

If I carry an item to the workbench, I keep away from the item's conductors, and set it onto the ESD mat for safe discharge before grounding myself to a scope BNC or something.

If I carry an item away from the workbench, I make contact with its largest conductive/grounded bulk as I walk, so as to equalize charge with myself (next best thing to a slow discharge at destination, since the destination has no ESD mat this time). At the destination I discharge again while still holding it, so any ESD that does flow goes through me and then goes into the device's ground, which on anything with decent grounding is one of the least susceptible nodes. Probably helps as well that I'm almost never wearing shoes, so the isolation voltage between me and the area around me is relatively low ;D
c4757p, if I haven't missed anything the procedure you are adopting seems ok for the most part. The main idea of ESD protective measures is to prevent these charges from building up as most as possible, as well as protecting the things against human error. Think of it as simply a more straightforward way to protect the equipment: for example, packing a board in a protective bag in the dissipative mat takes your mind away from not touching exposed copper - that and the typical Murphy's hazards (tripping, "ulnar nerve" syndrome, etc.)

Holding a board or IC by its insulated surroundings can still be a hazard if your body builds up charge (by wearing certain cloth materials or scratching your head, for example). The board or IC will have an induced charge, which is fine until by happenstance they "interact violently" with their surroundings. Again, it is just a matter of taking your mind off any potential hazards.

Other common things also buildup charge in a board or IC's surroundings: certain plastics, paper, etc. all can induce charge on nearby neutral boards and ICs. Having grounded dissipative mat or carts (to haul away test gear, for example) is another way to take your mind away from all this.

All that said, even in my workplace the vast majority of boards are cheapies that use modern ICs that have good protection on their inputs (at least when compared to their NMOS grandparents of yore). These factors make such protective measures an almost complete red herring, but the problem is that Murphy will bite you when handling the "one of a kind" or "ultra-expensive" board or gear.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline vze1lryy

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #217 on: February 16, 2016, 01:31:16 am »
Why not use one of those wireless ESD wrist straps?  8)

(just kidding of course)

I got that as a birthday gift almost ten years ago.
Louis Rossmann
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Offline wraper

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #218 on: February 16, 2016, 01:39:44 am »
Humid air is free static control.
This is a joke right? Tell me you are not serious?
Ever heard that pure demineralised or condensated water does NOT conduct electricity?
Do you really think that moist in the air has impurities in it?  :palm:
Humid air conducts not a single electron and is useless for any static discharge prevention.
Humid Air is the best thing to prevent static. Actually in ESD safe area you are not allowed to have air humidity below a certain level.
http://www.esdsystems.com/whitepapers/wp_humidity.html

 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #219 on: February 16, 2016, 06:29:31 am »
Ok then I was wrong and humid air does reduce the buildup of static charge.

Which does not mean it is enough to prevent ESD in electronic circuits or is enough in it self or should be preached as such.
Anyone serious about ESD is wearing straps and takes other known precautions.
 

Offline Muxr

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #220 on: February 16, 2016, 08:13:57 am »
Ok then I was wrong and humid air does reduce the buildup of static charge.

Which does not mean it is enough to prevent ESD in electronic circuits or is enough in it self or should be preached as such.
Anyone serious about ESD is wearing straps and takes other known precautions.
I used to live in a really dry climate, and now I live in humid climate. I used to always feel static discharge when I lived in dry climate. I have never felt static discharge here. Now I realise that doesn't mean I can't still damage components when handling them, but I think the chances are significantly reduced.

Shariar (The Signal Path) did a tour of the LeCroy factory and there is a particular shot of the mist being shot onto the factory floor to combat ESD. I didn't see many workers wearing straps either, one lady handling components did.

https://youtu.be/U3w_EWgGQuk?t=5427

Some of these are $1M scopes btw. I don't wear a strap, unless I am handling expensive/sensitive components.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #221 on: February 16, 2016, 11:58:30 am »
Shariar (The Signal Path) did a tour of the LeCroy factory and there is a particular shot of the mist being shot onto the factory floor to combat ESD. I didn't see many workers wearing straps either, one lady handling components did.
In places where a person works standing or is in constant move, straps are not required BUT must be replaced by other measures to prevent static buildup (shoe straps, ionizers, dissipative mats, etc.). Also, the scenario is similar if the person is working close to moving machinery - the only difference is that straps cannot be used.
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline Fraser

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #222 on: February 16, 2016, 03:46:23 pm »
Wow this thread has turned into one of those ESD precautions debates. Always a risky topic, as people can be very passionate about it. It almost deserves its own thread ?

Play nice now :)

Fraser
 

Offline Macbeth

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Re: Rossmann's repair videos. Using tons of liquid flux for no apparent reason?
« Reply #223 on: February 16, 2016, 11:43:24 pm »
Ok then I was wrong and humid air does reduce the buildup of static charge.

Which does not mean it is enough to prevent ESD in electronic circuits or is enough in it self or should be preached as such.
Anyone serious about ESD is wearing straps and takes other known precautions.
I totally agree. I also always throw salt over my shoulder and don't walk under ladders when I am serious.
 


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