Leaded solder for professional repair in EU/US

[KaneTW]

this sounds like a very oppressive law, that allows something to be sold to one group of people, but not to another.

Fundamentally I agree. Same with the >15% sulfuric acid ban, >12% h2o2 ban, etc, especially since all those have legitimate household applications that cannot be done effectively by the more dilute versions.

In most cases it's a non-issue though. Anyone can stop being a consumer at any point they choose by registering a business.

[Monkeh]

It IS forbidden (for consumers), but it doesn’t mean it’s absolutely impossible to get, and I never made that claim.

this sounds like a very oppressive law, that allows something to be sold to one group of people, but not to another.

if it is accepted that lead is hazardous substance (i am not commenting on this being true or false), then i could see that purchase could require that the purchaser has to hold a license of some sort. much as purchasing radioactive substances requires a license. likewise for firearms.

but we are not talking about a license. the present case seems more akin to one of saying "white people can purchase alcohol as they are responsible citizens", while "black people are not allowed to purchase alcohol as they behave badly after consuming it". such an argument is repugnant in any civilized society.

in the case of lead, i could therefore see these 'laws' that apparently exist in Europe as anti-competitive, and furthermore an outright restriction of trade - something frowned upon to say the least. i'd not want to be a part of any society that so willingly tramples over its citizens freedoms.


cheers,
rob   :-(

Restriction of trade? Oh, that's horrible, nobody should restrict trade of anyth- wait, no, everyone does that.

Equating "this substance should only be used with care for good reasons" with racism does not make a very good argument.

I imagine you're against restrictions on the sale of alcohol and tobacco to the underage, too.

[KaneTW]

Restriction of trade? Oh, that's horrible, nobody should restrict trade of anyth- wait, no, everyone does that.

The US do not restrict most things (except eg drugs) for sale to the end user.

[Monkeh]

Restriction of trade? Oh, that's horrible, nobody should restrict trade of anyth- wait, no, everyone does that.

The US do not restrict most things (except eg drugs) for sale to the end user.

I'm really not convinced we should use the US as a good example of anything. I should point out you're talking about a country which spent years outlawing the export of ideas outside their borders, and actively seeks day in, day out to undermine the privacy and security of its own citizens. But it's all good because you can buy lead solder you don't need.

[james_s]

Restriction of trade? Oh, that's horrible, nobody should restrict trade of anyth- wait, no, everyone does that.

The US do not restrict most things (except eg drugs) for sale to the end user.

It's getting worse all the time. About 10 years ago I had a heck of a time finding HCl for etching PCBs, now it's very difficult to find H2O2 stronger than 3%. More recently my state outlawed the sale of small cans of R134a which is obnoxious because I'm licensed as a refrigeration tech so I can buy a 30 lb jug of the stuff but I don't want to spend $400 on such a huge quantity that will take up storage space when the small cans meet my needs. I'm thankful that I can still buy lead solder at least but I'm sure that will get banned at some point too.

[robert.rozee]

Equating "this substance should only be used with care for good reasons" with racism does not make a very good argument.

it makes for a very good example, as it clearly highlights the inequity in a way that is hard to trivialise. there are, indeed, still places in the world where such race-based alcohol rules are applied.

I imagine you're against restrictions on the sale of alcohol and tobacco to the underage, too.

under-aged persons are recognized, in law, as not being responsible enough to make an informed decision. an implicit license is granted when turning 21 (or whatever age is specified in your jurisdiction) to drink and smoke.


cheers,
rob   :-)

[DavidKo]

They mostly argue with terrorism/extremism/green deal fight - you can hide there anything from one hand knives (banned in Germany) to chemicals (mostly banned on EU level).
HCl - that is currently available at least in our country
H2O2 - ban does not make sense, since you can buy black powder with age check and diperoxides are dangerous like a hell - whom they try to save? The few people experimenting with it? Criminals source professional stuff. It is mainly used for household applications
H2SO4- I do not understand the ban.
Pb ban - as mentioned before does not make sense for end consumer. I know the guy who suffered lead poisoning, but the reason was, that he was smelting bullets in closed room - it has nothing to do with electronics. It is issue for fishing, shotgun hunting etc. As far as I know the lead cannot be used with hot water (lead water pipes had been used in some old houses).
Hg ban - it is liquid and if someone spill it on floor, than it is hard to remove (it is not an issue to use it in dentistry, where it touches directly the food  ) On the other hand it was quite hard to obtain before the ban.

End consumers bans - law obeying citizens are not happy and criminals do not care about the bans thus getting advantages from it.

[magic]

H2SO4- I do not understand the ban.

This and your failure to even mention HNO₃ only means that you aren't one of the reasons why the ban exists

Besides, Brussels has been overrun by feminists who hate the French/British tradition of disciplining unfaithful wives with acid to the face

[robert.rozee]

H2SO4 - sulfuric acid
HNO3 - nitric acid

so what do Europeans use as an electrolyte in their lead-acid car batteries - of which every car (including hybrids and, i believe, most fully-electric cars) has one. at least in this part of the world, even fully-electric cars still include a lead-acid battery to power the radio, lights, and other low-voltage accessories.

if H2SO4 is banned, then so must be lead-acid car batteries!


i'm now starting to understand why the British were so keen to part company with the EU! it is sounding like a most horribly controlled society.


cheers,
rob   :-)

[magic]

There is an exemption for sulphuric acid inside batteries, and you are not allowed to pour the acid out of them
(Last time I checked, I could even get a bottle of 40% at a battery store and they weren't aware of the ban or didn't care).

The homeland of George Orwell was half the reason for all this idiocy, so I am glad too that they are gone. Now, if France and Germany could go next...

[mzzj]

There is an exemption for sulphuric acid inside batteries, and you are not allowed to pour the acid out of them
(Last time I checked, I could even get a bottle of 40% at a battery store and they weren't aware of the ban or didn't care).

The homeland of George Orwell was half the reason for all this idiocy, so I am glad too that they are gone. Now, if France and Germany could go next...

Poland seem to have less strict implementation of "bomb chemical" bans than some other EU countries.(at least so far)
Some friends that are into chemistry have been ordering chemicals from Poland as you can still get interesting chemicals reasonably easily.

 Leaded solder and sulphuric acid are gone from stores here in Finland. Nitric acid, nitromethane (rc car fuel) and lots of other "bomb chemicals" were outlawed even earlier.

IIRC Breivik (Norwegian mass murderer) also sourced his bomb materials from...Poland 

[Monkeh]

i'm now starting to understand why the British were so keen to part company with the EU! it is sounding like a most horribly controlled society.

Only because you choose to interpret it as such with no effort to research or understand the reality.

[magic]

Poland seem to have less strict implementation of "bomb chemical" bans than some other EU countries.(at least so far)
Some friends that are into chemistry have been ordering chemicals from Poland as you can still get interesting chemicals reasonably easily.

The political order in Poland has always been anarchism, regardless of any external facade at any time
Plus, the idea of blowing up dozens of random strangers is pretty alien here, so nobody considers terrorism a serious problem.

IIRC Breivik (Norwegian mass murderer) also sourced his bomb materials from...Poland 

Sorry about that


Norwegians are sometimes weird like that.

I gaze into the Moon which makes my mind pure as crystal lakes
My eyes cold as the darkest winter nights, but yet there is a flame inside

It guides me into the dark shadows beyond this world
Into the infinity of thoughts... thoughts of upcoming reality

In the name of the almighty Emperor I will ride the Lands in pride
Carrying the Blacksword at hand, in warfare

I will grind my hatred upon the loved ones
Despair will be brought upon
The hoping child of happiness

Wherever there is joy the hordes of the eclipse
Will pollute sadness
Sadness and hate
Under the reign of fear

The lands will grow black
There is no Sunrise to come

.

[coppercone2]

I think Poland understands the need for like interested chemists, easy industry, etc. It might actually stay a sizable industrial power rather then being pidgonholed into some esoteric market like some other EU nations. If you have a good chemical industry thats a high degree of autonomy that means that your kinda self sufficient. You have plenty of implemented experts (not people who have the knowledge and no way to use it, aka will leave at first sign of trouble). It's harder for other people to 'pull your strings.' Of course its all interconnected but it must mean something during international negotiations.

But also I think its important to remember the gun killed 63 people, the bomb killed 8 and wasted his time and money. I guess it did injure alot though. Not saying which one is worse, but the gun is certainly easier. He had to make a cover story, front companies, business plan, etc (not to mention construction and transport), I think he had to develop quite a criminal mastermind scheme to implement that bomb plan. While with the gun its just 'hi, i like to shoot things, here is $500'. If he put that bomb money into training others, he could have done even more damage. 

For those interested in a (sad) song about the event, search for
Röyksopp & Susanne Sundfør ► Running To The Sea (Studio Version)

I don't think its appropriate to link the video in a discussion this serious directly because its still kind of a fun song, if you don't know why it was written.

I imagine there is alot of opportunities in Poland for industrial chemists, since there is alot of heating plants (which themselves benefit from things like air pollution filter research, corrosion research) and there is bound to be a increase for self made advanced goods due to the Europe situation, with the amount of strife the Ukraine war put into the eastern European states. It seems like anything can happen there politically (maybe not in Poland, but the other post-soviet states)...

[magic]

Nobody understand anything and certainly not politicians, it's only chaos that saves us. You see, the EU bans various things that nobody here cares about, but it doesn't send money to enforce the bans, so they remain poorly enforced. It's that simple.

If there were special handouts for that, politicians would immediately jump on the opportunity to steal half of the money for themselves and the remaining half would then go towards knocking on the doors of the remaining vendors of leaded solder, battery electrolyte and so on. That's how it worked when we were friends with the USSR and that's how it works as friends of the EUSSR

[coppercone2]

those decisions should not be taken lightly because it all screws up jobs and that screws up the cities and towns, things should flow.

But I agree that when you follow every regulation that people make then its like a joke, you start getting complaints about money/time/progress from people you would never know existed. Managers know which directives to ignore in order to maintain work flow, I think the economy is similar.

All the problems that these kinds of regulations are often meant to prevent just have their underlying roots grow deeper when there is no money. People get money, people get their products and services and then people forget their problems and vendettas when they see there is so much they can do with life and their resources, its when they are stuck that you get problems  (at least for the reasonable majority), which is why the *SSR/PP/C(om)P etc subfix countries always have high amounts of discontent in their population.


Kinda always reminds me when you are in a bad place at night and you get all these thoughts and anger/fear but then you are thankful you have a couple of bucks in your pocket to call a taxi and then you forget about it for the next decade (wheras before you were ready to dedicate your life to protest or whatever)

The only problem with poor enforcement is that sometimes it can be misused to target someone specifically, if they know everyone is doing something, then you can choose targets for whatever motive with very high 'hit probability'.... poor enforcement + stiff penalties = russia. if the penalties are weak/moderate, at least the effects are mitigated.

[rsjsouza]

It's getting worse all the time. About 10 years ago I had a heck of a time finding HCl for etching PCBs, now it's very difficult to find H2O2 stronger than 3%. More recently my state outlawed the sale of small cans of R134a which is obnoxious because I'm licensed as a refrigeration tech so I can buy a 30 lb jug of the stuff but I don't want to spend $400 on such a huge quantity that will take up storage space when the small cans meet my needs. I'm thankful that I can still buy lead solder at least but I'm sure that will get banned at some point too.

james_s, you should be able to get HCl at any pool store in the shape of Muriatic Acid, which at 37% is already quite strong but can make a good etchant mix. H₂O₂ will probably be worth to pay a visit to the Hair products store - you can usually get up to 30 volumes (40 if you have a license of sorts) in both cream and liquid forms. Also, with the covid craze, even Amazon was selling 7% (IIRC) gallon jugs.

[james_s]

james_s, you should be able to get HCl at any pool store in the shape of Muriatic Acid, which at 37% is already quite strong but can make a good etchant mix. H₂O₂ will probably be worth to pay a visit to the Hair products store - you can usually get up to 30 volumes (40 if you have a license of sorts) in both cream and liquid forms. Also, with the covid craze, even Amazon was selling 7% (IIRC) gallon jugs.

You would think so, but all I could find at the time was "muriatic acid substitute", I don't remember what it actually was. I eventually found the real stuff at a concrete supply trade counter, I bought a gallon and still have about half of it left, a little goes a long way.

[rsjsouza]

Come to think of it, during the covid craze the pool chemicals based on Chlorine were indeed in very short supply - at least where I live.
The substitutes that I saw are CO₂ or some variation of it to create carbonic acid, but the quantities needed are incredibly higher that muriatic.

[james_s]

This was over 10 years ago so long before Covid, I think the stuff I found was similar to this. https://lesliespool.com/acid-magic---muriatic-acid-alternative/bd773ed4-90e9-4b51-bc1a-dc206f255442.html