Leaded solder for professional repair in EU/US

[Domitronic]

Hello,

when watching repair videos on YouTube for example from Louis Rossmann or NorthridgeFix i see they are still using leaded solder for fixing notebooks, tablets and so on.

I thought usage of leaded solder is not allowed anymore. Are there exceptions in regulations for repair? And are regulations different in the EU and US? I wonder if we could use leaded solder for repair of electronic equipment as well in the EU.

 

[ataradov]

It is your equipment, you can do whatever you want. Same thing with hobby projects. Leaded solder is not outlawed, it is available and some industries still use it even in mass production for reliability reasons.

The goal of the regulation is to reduce the use of lead in mass production. The amount of leaded solder a repair shop would use in a lifetime is meaningless, it literally does not matter.

[nctnico]

The goal of the regulation is to reduce the use of lead in mass production. The amount of leaded solder a repair shop would use in a lifetime is meaningless, it literally does not matter.

I beg to differ. There is not just one repair shop but thousands and all of them using leaded solder does at up to a significant source of lead contamination. Louis Rossman should use unleaded solder for equipment that goes into to field (the hands of consumers) like anyone else.

[ataradov]

Only tiny percentage of the manufactured devices go for repair. And repair shop modifies a tiny part of the board. The amount of solder they use even if combined is tiny compared to the amount used for manufacturing.

You can dick around with formulations all day long, but leaded solder is still unbeatable for manual soldering.

[Domitronic]

Not sure what Louis is using today. I thought in an older video he mentioned that he used leaded on this particular repair. And even in his online store he has leaded solder as affiliate link to Amazon.

But finally my question comes down to professional repair in the EU.  I thought RoHS directive prohibits the use of leaded solder. Is that correct or are there any exceptions for repair? So if i do some repair here and there as a part-time job i assume i can not use leaded solder? I mean unleaded is fine for most things. But sometimes it would be easier to use leaded for really tiny stuff.

[coppercone2]

Lol, that amount of solder accounts for maybe... 0.0001% of the solder used in the product. Usually its like a cap repair or something

Think about this:
1) risk throwing away entire device because of some trace de lamination that occurs on a 12 layer PCB because of excessive heat (those boards are practically one time use). Factor in all the other costs associated with telling the customer that you broke their stuff. Thats about a pound of e-waste generated.
2) tolerate a few milligrams of lead.

Its not plutonium.


The amount of energy saved by reducing the demand for manufacturing demand for even more phones to end up being burned in Africa totally covers all the downsides of using lead.

How about you go after lead on historical building roofs? It's actually alot compared to the amount of lead used in many years of equipment repair, and its still considered basically nothing. 


I am telling you that there is so much more hidden lead being used in all sorts of industries that ends up polluting stuff that this is a absolute waste of time to consider.

here is one, how about you go after lead acid batteries instead. Thats like going after a match stick burning when there is a whole city that is in conflagration. One incorrectly disposed LA battery (not counting stuff like lead contaminated acid leaks that get on the road) probobly equivalent to many years of SMD caps being replaced in every repair shop in the world. A boat that sinks? A car crash that ruptures the battery and scatters it ? You are talking pounds every time, tons of crumbling lead oxide dust, etc. And lead acid battery is just one of them.

Hell, tons of old cars are soldered together with lead thats slowly disintegrating along the roads as well (used to be a way to attach the roof of a car).

And then you also create a industry of high precision soldering tools that is bound to be extremely wasteful when people try to figure out a way to get lead free to work right for shitty consumer item repairs. Why build tools that you don't have to? I can imagine all sorts of efforts going to making all sorts of crazy  shit to replace 10 miligrams of lead on a SMD capacitor reliably. Easier repair = less waste. The amount of general industrial waste that won't be produced if you reduce yearly electronics demand by 10% (facilitated by easy repairs) is extremely large. If people start getting the idea that your average repair shop is gonna fuck up the repair (they already have a bad reputation!), you will just have more people saying fuck it and buying a new phone, laptop or videocard. It's setting up the repair industry to fail.

Look at the pakistani car battery repair industry (and their practices) and you will see that going after a phone repair shop is just preposterous. (tldr, they do open air casting of lead plates in the desert with high wind and dry conditions, it must spread lead dross everywhere within 1000 miles lol, ). And don't fail to consider coal and stuff, which ends up making lead vapors from operations. by tightening down emissions regulations for mineral based industries you already have a sea compared to the drop. For instance dust control on open air mines (they leave heavy metal laiden dirt on top of the ground), coal processing, minerals processing water (you get lead compounds in the wash water), land reshaping projects, etc. Probably tons of lead contaminated industrial water are mixed with normal water every day also post discharge (try to ensure that all water extracted from the earth is drinkable, and do not allow for 'industrial grade' water to be used.. good luck doing this in some places, you have special water sources that everyone knows you cannot drink).

[mikeselectricstuff]

There are restrictions in the EU on the sale of leaded solder to non-professional users ( e.g. at rapid you need to have an account), but not on any usage.
Of course Aliexpress will sell anything to anyone, so not a problem to get hold of it.

[coppercone2]

I wonder how many heart attacks per year that causes because of stressful delaminations

[DaJMasta]

I thought the regulations were always that new devices had to be made with unleaded without special exception but that repair did not have such restrictions.

[Monkeh]

I thought the regulations were always that new devices had to be made with unleaded without special exception but that repair did not have such restrictions.

Repair of devices on the market prior to the introduction of the regulations.

With some of the comments here I do wonder just how much soldering experience some have. Lead-free just isn't that bad, and modern boards are not 1970s scopes which have been rotting in a barn for 20 years.

[tooki]

Hello,

when watching repair videos on YouTube for example from Louis Rossmann or NorthridgeFix i see they are still using leaded solder for fixing notebooks, tablets and so on.

I thought usage of leaded solder is not allowed anymore. Are there exceptions in regulations for repair? And are regulations different in the EU and US? I wonder if we could use leaded solder for repair of electronic equipment as well in the EU.

As far as I know, ONLY the EU has actually restricted lead solder (under RoHS). The reason the whole world switched is that it’d be uneconomical to make separate lead-free versions of things for the EU and leaded for everyone else. It’s cheaper to just make it all lead-free.

In USA, do what you want. (California requires a warning on products with lead, but doesn’t ban them outright, IIRC.)

In Europe, you can use leaded for repairing devices originally manufactured with lead solder. But due to a separate law (REACH) it’s difficult for European consumers to purchase lead solder. (Businesses are allowed to.)

But I have said many times: lead-free isn’t anywhere near as bad as so many people make it out to be. From their hysteria, you’d think it made soldering practically impossible. That’s simply not the case. In my experience, the quality of the flux makes a bigger difference than whether it contains lead. And yes, some lead-free alloys are better than others, and surprisingly, the ones with the lowest melting points are not the ones that are the nicest to work with. (The nickel-germanium-doped tin alloys like Sn100+ flow nicely and produce good looking joints.)

If you’re soldering (or desoldering) at the very limits of what your equipment and technique can manage with lead solder, then the added heat needed for lead-free can push you into failure. But with proper equipment and technique, lead-free works just fine.

[rsjsouza]

As others have mentioned, the amount of lead on a repair shop is minuscule compared to other sources of lead "in the wild". I don't worry about it.

As tooki mentioned, lead free is not as bad as it once was, but it is still worse than leaded, especially in large mass areas where it can get very brittle depending on the age and/or mechanical stress. Or in small components where the higher temperatures can potentially cause more damage to the parts.

One aspect rarely mentioned is that, regardless of leaded or lead free, the volatile compounds of chemicals surrounding the process (type of flux, tip cleaner, which are much more needed when using lead free) worry me much more than the lead content. Those fumes are nasty (and we have filters), but I suspect these don't get anywhere near the attention they deserve in this discussion. 

[mushroom]

...But due to a separate law (REACH) it’s difficult for European consumers to purchase lead solder. (Businesses are allowed to)...

No it isn't. It is available everywhere for individuals.

For example :

https://www.bmjelec.com/categorie-produit/alliages/bobines-soudure/plomb/
https://www.bmjelec.com/categorie-produit/alliages/creme-brasage/plomb-creme-brasage/
https://www.gotronic.fr/cat-fil-de-soudure-au-plomb-592.htm

I just renewed my own stock (early 2022), all leaded :

[Paceguy]

I still have several NOS rolls of Kester '44 solder of various diameters. I repair and restore vintage test equipment and electronics. I'm good for life with the solder I have and rarely use solder paste.

[Monkeh]

...But due to a separate law (REACH) it’s difficult for European consumers to purchase lead solder. (Businesses are allowed to)...

No it isn't. It is available everywhere for individuals.

For example :

https://www.bmjelec.com/categorie-produit/alliages/bobines-soudure/plomb/
https://www.bmjelec.com/categorie-produit/alliages/creme-brasage/plomb-creme-brasage/
https://www.gotronic.fr/cat-fil-de-soudure-au-plomb-592.htm

I just renewed my own stock (early 2022), all leaded :

A couple of French non-compliers does not equate to everywhere.

[mushroom]

France complies to EU regulations (and always adds more restrictive laws to existing directives). I was confirmed by my local supplier that leaded solder is still available for individuals as well as for repair. Lead free solder is for industry only.

Please, don't spread false information.

[Monkeh]

France complies to EU regulations (and always adds more restrictive laws to existing directives). I was confirmed by my local supplier that leaded solder is still available for individuals as well as for repair. Lead free solder is for industry only.

Please, don't spread false information.

https://echa.europa.eu/substances-restricted-under-reach/-/dislist/details/0b0236e1807e30a6

7. Shall not be placed on the market or used in articles supplied to the general public, if the
concentration of lead (expressed as metal) in those articles or accessible parts thereof is
equal to or greater than 0,05 % by weight, and those articles or accessible parts thereof
may, during normal or reasonably foreseeable conditions of use, be placed in the mouth by
children.

That limit shall not apply where it can be demonstrated that the rate of lead release from
such an article or any such accessible part of an article, whether coated or uncoated, does
not exceed 0,05 μg/cm² per hour (equivalent to 0,05 μg/g/h), and, for coated articles, that
the coating is sufficient to ensure that this release rate is not exceeded for a period of at
least two years of normal or reasonably foreseeable conditions of use of the article.

For the purposes of this paragraph, it is considered that an article or accessible part of an
article may be placed in the mouth by children if it is smaller than 5 cm in one dimension or
has a detachable or protruding part of that size.

Please claim the religious article exception for the funnies.

[rsjsouza]

France complies to EU regulations (and always adds more restrictive laws to existing directives). I was confirmed by my local supplier that leaded solder is still available for individuals as well as for repair. Lead free solder is for industry only.

Although "my local supplier" is not a reliable source of information, a corporate company seems to bring weight to your claim.

https://eu.mouser.com/c/tools-supplies/soldering/solder/?description%2Ffunction=Leaded%20solder

It may well be one of the exemptions for Leaded regulations.

[nctnico]

As others have mentioned, the amount of lead on a repair shop is minuscule compared to other sources of lead "in the wild".

That is still no reason to add more lead to the environment. We'll likely see laws pop-up in the EU that require removal of existing pieces of lead. Starting with pipework. In the NL a law is in the making banning lead piping from some existing buildings (like rented homes) and thus requiring replacement of lead pipes.

[mushroom]

Lots of exceptions !
Divers will understand.

[Monkeh]

Lots of exceptions !
Divers will understand.

Please state the exception which applies to your use case. I'll even list them:

8. By way of derogation, paragraph 7 shall not apply to:
(a) jewellery articles covered by paragraph 1;
(b) crystal glass as defined in Annex I (categories 1, 2, 3 and 4) to Directive 69/493/
EEC;
(c) non-synthetic or reconstructed precious and semi-precious stones (CN code 7103
as established by Regulation (EEC) No 2658/ 87) unless they have been treated with
lead or its compounds or mixtures containing these substances;
(d) enamels, defined as vitrifiable mixtures resulting from the fusion, vitrification or
sintering of mineral melted at a temperature of at least 500 ° C;
(e) keys and locks, including padlocks;
(f) musical instruments;
(g) articles and parts of articles comprising brass alloys, if the concentration of lead
(expressed as metal) in the brass alloy does not exceed 0,5 % by weight;
(h) the tips of writing instruments;
(i) religious articles;
(j) portable zinc-carbon batteries and button cell batteries;
(k) articles within the scope of:
(i) Directive 94/62/EC;
(ii) Regulation (EC) No 1935/2004;
(iii) Directive 2009/48/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council (**);
(iv) Directive 2011/65/EU of the European Parliament and of the Council (***)

[mushroom]

Why should I lose my time with that, about industry ?

OK, you are right, you can't purchase leaded solder, you can't purchase lead weights in scuba stores or pick some on the boats, you can't shoot lead shot (EU : ends feb 2013), my solder is lead free, etc. On my side, end of story.

[Monkeh]

Why should I lose my time with that, about industry ?

OK, you are right, you can't purchase leaded solder, you can't purchase lead weights in scuba stores or pick some on the boats, you can't shoot lead shot (EU : ends feb 2013), my solder is lead free, etc. On my side, end of story.

It clearly states this is not about industry but consumer sales.

If you're going to make claims about 'false information', you should inform yourself first.

[tooki]

...But due to a separate law (REACH) it’s difficult for European consumers to purchase lead solder. (Businesses are allowed to)...

No it isn't. It is available everywhere for individuals.

The fact that you found a distributor that ignores the law doesn’t mean the law is not in effect.

Others have done the work of showing you the law.

Please, don't spread false information.

The only one spreading false information here is you.

[mushroom]

"The fact that you found a distributor that ignores the law doesn’t mean the law is not in effect."

The fact that you are unable to source leaded solder does not mean it is forbiden. For your information the first link is... a manufacturer (BMJ, France) !!!

Search for other manufacturers. You will find such solder.
Search for distributors (RS, Mouser, Amazon, etc.), and you will be able to order.

The "leaded solder doom's day" has been around for at least 15 yars, all around the world, all around the Internets. And leaded solder is still there, available for everyone, from anywhere.

And yes, I consider a local reseller as a reliable source. More reliable than a forum, copying and pasting the same legends for over 15 years.

Always funny to hear from non EU residents how it works where I live   

[Monkeh]

Nobody said it isn't manufactured or available for appropriate users, merely that it is not to be sold to the general public. Being that I'm a professional user, I can indeed purchase leaded solder - but I have essentially no reason to, because I can't use it for my work.

The same legislation applies to me, has done since prior to EU exit. Always funny to hear people pretend their ignorance is knowledge.

[KaneTW]

Why is it so hard to read a regulation? I get it, it's REACH, huge pain in the ass. But seriously.

https://echa.europa.eu/documents/10162/851fb88e-9867-c5a0-bf15-2678ad831be6

1. Shall not be placed on the market or used in any individual part of jewellery articles if the
concentration of lead (expressed as metal) in such a part is equal to or greater than 0,05 %
by weight.

Does not apply. 2. - 6. relate to 1., so ignore those.

7. Shall not be placed on the market or used in articles supplied to the general public, if the
concentration of lead (expressed as metal) in those articles or accessible parts thereof is
equal to or greater than 0,05 % by weight, and those articles or accessible parts thereof
may, during normal or reasonably foreseeable conditions of use, be placed in the mouth by
children.


That limit shall not apply where it can be demonstrated that the rate of lead release from
such an article or any such accessible part of an article, whether coated or uncoated, does
not exceed 0,05 μg/cm² per hour (equivalent to 0,05 μg/g/h), and, for coated articles, that
the coating is sufficient to ensure that this release rate is not exceeded for a period of at
least two years of normal or reasonably foreseeable conditions of use of the article.

For the purposes of this paragraph, it is considered that an article or accessible part of an
article may be placed in the mouth by children if it is smaller than 5 cm in one dimension or
has a detachable or protruding part of that size

8.9. [skip]

10. By way of derogation paragraph 7 shall not apply to articles placed on the market for the
first time before 1 June 2016.

https://echa.europa.eu/documents/10162/17220/lead_guideline_information_en.pdf/43269f58-7035-42ea-a396-268a17abb5ab


Interpreting this, selling lead solder to the general public is forbidden because it's mouthable by children under normal/reasonably foreseeable conditions of use (sitting on a workbench table, child climbs up, sucks on it).

Diving weights are not forbidden, as they're too big and heavy to be mouthed. (see the guideline pdf)

However, any article of lead solder that was first placed on the market before 1 June 2016 is not forbidden. You can still continue making and selling an old article to the general public.

[Monkeh]

However, any article of lead solder that was first placed on the market before 1 June 2016 is not forbidden. You can still continue making and selling an old article to the general public.

But wait, there's more: https://ila-reach.org/2018/01/new-restrictions-and-labelling-requirements-affect-lead-from-march-1-2018/

[KaneTW]

However, any article of lead solder that was first placed on the market before 1 June 2016 is not forbidden. You can still continue making and selling an old article to the general public.

But wait, there's more: https://ila-reach.org/2018/01/new-restrictions-and-labelling-requirements-affect-lead-from-march-1-2018/

http://ila-reach.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Lead-Metal-and-the-9th-ATP-to-CLP-Frequently-Asked-Questions_v4.pdf

This restriction and the labelling obligations would not apply to the use of articles such as
ammunition and architectural lead sheet, nor to the industrial or professional use of lead metal on
its own or in a mixture.

CLP regulation:

7. ‘substance’ means a chemical element and its compounds in the
natural state or obtained by any manufacturing process, including
any additive necessary to preserve its stability and any impurity
deriving from the process used, but excluding any solvent which
may be separated without affecting the stability of the substance or
changing its composition;
8. ‘mixture’ means a mixture or solution composed of two or more
substances;
9. ‘article’ means an object which during production is given a special
shape, surface or design which determines its function to a greater
degree than does its chemical composition;

CLP by and large only applies to substances and mixtures. Articles do not need to be labeled with hazard pictograms and are not intrinsically restricted.

‘2. For a substance on its own, in a mixture or in an article
which meets the criteria for classification in the hazard classes
carcinogenicity, germ cell mutagenicity or reproductive toxicity,
category 1A or 1B, and could be used by consumers and for
which restrictions to consumer use are proposed by the
Commission, Annex XVII shall be amended in accordance with
the procedure referred to in Article 133(4). Articles 69 to 73
shall not apply

Annex XVII leads to my post above (entry 63 of the Annex)

[rsjsouza]

Why is it so hard to read a regulation? I get it, it's REACH, huge pain in the ass. But seriously.

Quite interesting... Thanks for sharing.

Not having a race on this horse, I find laughable there are lots of specifications for something to be considered "mouthable"... Anyone that has kids knows this is completely stupid as kids consider everything "mouthable": toys, nuts, bolts, insects, walls, window sills, doors, TVs, feet, shoes... I guess they wanted to say "swallowable" instead. 

[coppercone2]

This kinda makes sense to me for smooth objects but what the hell is this child doing putting a sharp unpleasant fiberglass board in their mouth. If it was rubber or at least smooth, but this will trash your teeth and cut your tongue before you get lead absorption,.

Put a PCB in your mouth. Its like trying to eat a woodworkers file. Through hole was even worse because they were sharp, a child will cut itself up and stop. Their all sharp angles and filled with fiberglass, ceramic and small sharp angled pieces of metal. 

Put a PCB that is populated on a piece of wood and drag it, it looks like it got attacked by a cat.

Child eating a smooth washer = plausible
pcb = totally not believable 

[rsjsouza]

As others have mentioned, the amount of lead on a repair shop is minuscule compared to other sources of lead "in the wild".

That is still no reason to add more lead to the environment. We'll likely see laws pop-up in the EU that require removal of existing pieces of lead. Starting with pipework. In the NL a law is in the making banning lead piping from some existing buildings (like rented homes) and thus requiring replacement of lead pipes.

Lead is in the environment already. Lead is installed in many places around the globe, especially infrastructure. You can't escape it. An entire industry was created to reduce it, which is laudable to curb the massive influx, but it becomes quite a useless effort with very diminishing returns if they try to close every single gap (the case of this thread).

[themadhippy]

but what the hell is this child doing putting a sharp unpleasant fiberglass board in their mouth

because thats wot kids,especially babys do.

[Monkeh]

This kinda makes sense to me for smooth objects but what the hell is this child doing putting a sharp unpleasant fiberglass board in their mouth. If it was rubber or at least smooth, but this will trash your teeth and cut your tongue before you get lead absorption,.

Put a PCB in your mouth. Its like trying to eat a woodworkers file. Through hole was even worse because they were sharp, a child will cut itself up and stop. Their all sharp angles and filled with fiberglass, ceramic and small sharp angled pieces of metal. 

Put a PCB that is populated on a piece of wood and drag it, it looks like it got attacked by a cat.

Child eating a smooth washer = plausible
pcb = totally not believable

But we're not talking about selling PCBs, are we?

[Monkeh]

CLP by and large only applies to substances and mixtures. Articles do not need to be labeled with hazard pictograms and are not intrinsically restricted.

Solder is a mixture.

‘2. For a substance on its own, in a mixture or in an article
which meets the criteria for classification in the hazard classes
carcinogenicity, germ cell mutagenicity or reproductive toxicity,
category 1A or 1B, and could be used by consumers and for
which restrictions to consumer use are proposed by the
Commission, Annex XVII shall be amended in accordance with
the procedure referred to in Article 133(4). Articles 69 to 73
shall not apply

Annex XVII leads to my post above (entry 63 of the Annex)

XVII is amended to include lead metal in the table of substances which are toxic to reproduction.

Without prejudice to the other parts of this Annex the following shall apply to entries 28 to 30:

1.  Shall not be placed on the market, or used,

— as substances,

— as constituents of other substances, or,

— in mixtures,

for supply to the general public when the individual concentration in the substance or mixture is equal to or greater than:

— either the relevant specific concentration limit specified in Part 3 of Annex VI to Regulation (EC) No 1272/2008, or,

— the relevant generic concentration limit specified in Part 3 of Annex I of Regulation (EC) No 1272/2008.

The guidance is quite clear - lead solder is not for sale to the general public.

[richnormand]

The guidance is quite clear - lead solder is not for sale to the general public.

So why is the second or third source of lead in our environment and food not talked about? Properly recycled batteries and electronics should not be an issue now.
Lead from repair of a few joints on the pcb is minuscule compared to remaining leaded paint, roofing material, pipes.... and the overuse of fertilizer:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Pb-input-via-fertilizer-in-dependence-on-farming-category-according-to-Knappe-et-al_tbl1_341167809

[coppercone2]

but what the hell is this child doing putting a sharp unpleasant fiberglass board in their mouth

because thats wot kids,especially babys do.

I wanna see that. The baby will quickly learn that its hazardous to health. Try it and see how sharp it feels. There are pleasant things to try to chew on (i.e. possibly a wire) and play with (a smooth polished bolt), and things that are unpleasant to put in your mouth (pcb is like a hedgehog).. I have a feeling that kids that want to put jagged fiberglass in their mouth are... very rare. Kids usually will go for smooth polished objects, not stuff that is basically razor sharp. The sensation of a PCB should bring fear to most people for mechanical damage to the body. Their just not pleasant to handle, they have no characteristics of fun objects, etc.

I could see a child chewing on a square cut of lead sheet, but not a damn PCB.

[KaneTW]

Solder is a mixture.

Disagree. It's an article.

The guidance is quite clear - lead solder is not for sale to the general public.

Unless it was put on the market before 2016.

[mushroom]

Diving weights are not forbidden, as they're too big and heavy to be mouthed. (see the guideline pdf)

Really ?

This is 0.5 Kg [EDIT] not watertight [/EDIT]. Lead shot, in bags, full of lead oxide due to the spheres adsorption. Maybe the worst scenario after the red lead paint with its characteristic and attractive sweet taste. Also exist as wristband (ankle leads), from 100 grams. 

There are the directives, their interpretation, the local laws, the government application texts (where I live), their interpretation, and also the jurisprudence when something goes to court. This is not accessible with just some googling. And many "forbidden" things are still available and will remain available.

[Infraviolet]

One note to throw in: if a device's owner is choosing to get it repaired then very much by definition they care about the device enough not to want to throw it away. Leaded solder being used to repair a device is very unlikely to end up as a landfill pollutant, because devices that get repaired are the ones that won't be tossed.

From a practical purpose one should definitely always repair a device which already uses leaded solder by using leaded solder, mixing leaded and unleaded can lead to very unreliable joints. If the device started off unleaded you'd likely be best using unleaded, but if you cleaned off the unleaded solder from the joints being repaired then you might get ok joints still with using leaded solder as the amount of unleaded "contaminant" would be pretty low. You'd still probably want to work at unleaded temperatures throughout any mixed solder types scenario, just to be sure.

[KaneTW]

This was the kind I had in mind, but I was mostly quoting the PDF from the EU site.

There are the directives, their interpretation, the local laws, the government application texts (where I live), their interpretation, and also the jurisprudence when something goes to court. This is not accessible with just some googling. And many "forbidden" things are still available and will remain available.

Yep. Big reason why I consider REACH etc. to be complete wastes. Only thing they do is make things unnecessarily more complex.

[james_s]

It's a total non-issue. It was phased out in mass production because there is 50 million tons of e-waste produced each year. The amount of leaded solder from all repair shops in the world combined that becomes waste is down in the noise floor, it's irrelevant.

[Nusa]

I am amused by this exception, which suggests that some regulators think pencils actually use lead:

(h) the tips of writing instruments

While it's true some people got lead poisoning from old wood pencils, it was NOT from the "lead" of the pencil. Which is actually non-toxic graphite. However there was lead-based paint used on the outside of pencils back in the day. So it was the pencil chewers that got dosed.

[Ian.M]

From a practical purpose one should definitely always repair a device which already uses leaded solder by using leaded solder, mixing leaded and unleaded can lead to very unreliable joints. If the device started off unleaded you'd likely be best using unleaded, but if you cleaned off the unleaded solder from the joints being repaired then you might get ok joints still with using leaded solder as the amount of unleaded "contaminant" would be pretty low. You'd still probably want to work at unleaded temperatures throughout any mixed solder types scenario, just to be sure.

I really don't recommend using leaded solder for repairing unleaded boards as it leaves a nasty trap for any future repairer.  Back in 2020, in the topic https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/soldering-material-need-advice/, I wrote (without the red hilite):

Sn/Pb solders tolerate a significant variation from their nominal composition without major adverse effects and both copper and silver have been used as components of Sn/Pb solder alloys so the chances of a small remaining quantity of Pb-free solder on a joint mixed with many times its volume of new Sn/Pb solder causing a bad joint are negligible.

OTOH Pb at concentrations as low as 1% can result in joint failure of many Pb-free alloys (see https://www.bomir.com/downloads/aim/Lead_Contamination_in_Lead-Free_Electronics_Assembly.pdf ) so even 'touching up' a Pb-free joint with a bit that has just come from a Sn/Pb joint can cause failure.  Therefore a Sn/Pb joint on an otherwise Pb-free board is a booby trap waiting for any future repair worker, and if you intend to repair modern Pb-free electronics, even setting aside ROHS legal issues, you should still use Pb-free solder. 

and:

If you use Sn/Pb solder for repair of a ROHS or questionable ROHS status board, *DO* *NOT* even touch with the bit any joints that you don't have to, and if you rework a joint suck off the old solder first.  Don't allow such boards to leave your ownership. Flag joints reworked with Sn/Pb with a red marker pen so you don't form a trap for yourself. 

Personally I keep a small quantity of SAC305 solder for Pb-free rework, so I can legally give away or resell repaired items and charge for repair.  If you cant keep separate bits, (or better, as the pros do, have separate solder stations and work areas)  for Sn/Pb and Pb-free rework, as a DIYer, wipe your bit thoroughly and re-tin with Pb-free solder *THREE* times if going from Sn/Pb to Pb-free to reduce trace Pb contamination on your bit below the 0.1% limit mandated by ROHS.

[rsjsouza]

Thanks for sharing the article. I vaguely recall reading it when my job threw away heaps of soldering stations when transitioning to Pb Free. 

The article, however, is talking about 0,5% or 1,0% contamination instead of a complete cover of the lead/pad with Pb solder, which is what a repair person would do when replacing a single part. The Pb/Sn alloy will dominate the soldered connection and it wouldn't be subject to the adhesion effects mentioned in the article.

Of course, this would show problems in reflow (rarely used for repairs) or for a future repairer if they try to fix the same joint with Pb-free solder. Worse, his soldering tip will be contaminated as well. So, don't use Pb/Sn solder and use a different tip/soldering iron if you can (not many might be able to do it due to $$$).

[rsjsouza]

I am amused by this exception, which suggests that some regulators think pencils actually use lead:

(h) the tips of writing instruments

While it's true some people got lead poisoning from old wood pencils, it was NOT from the "lead" of the pencil. Which is actually non-toxic graphite. However there was lead-based paint used on the outside of pencils back in the day. So it was the pencil chewers that got dosed.

That is the kind of crap that happens when you put a bunch of bureaucrats in a room trying to decide techincal regulations. 

[Monkeh]

I am amused by this exception, which suggests that some regulators think pencils actually use lead:

(h) the tips of writing instruments

While it's true some people got lead poisoning from old wood pencils, it was NOT from the "lead" of the pencil. Which is actually non-toxic graphite. However there was lead-based paint used on the outside of pencils back in the day. So it was the pencil chewers that got dosed.

Alternatively it's to allow lead in alloys in the tips of fountain pens.

All it takes is one centuries old business going "Hey, we do this and we don't want to stop" and you get exceptions.

[tooki]

"The fact that you found a distributor that ignores the law doesn’t mean the law is not in effect."

The fact that you are unable to source leaded solder does not mean it is forbiden. For your information the first link is... a manufacturer (BMJ, France) !!!

Search for other manufacturers. You will find such solder.
Search for distributors (RS, Mouser, Amazon, etc.), and you will be able to order.

The "leaded solder doom's day" has been around for at least 15 yars, all around the world, all around the Internets. And leaded solder is still there, available for everyone, from anywhere.

And yes, I consider a local reseller as a reliable source. More reliable than a forum, copying and pasting the same legends for over 15 years.

Always funny to hear from non EU residents how it works where I live   

1. I am able to source leaded solder. What I said is that it’s difficult (not “impossible”) for consumers to buy because it’s illegal to sell it to them. All of the major continental European distributors (Distrelec, Conrad, Reichelt, etc) have stopped selling it to consumers. They’ll still sell it to businesses.

2. I’m not claiming anecdotes as “evidence” of my position, I’m claiming law, and that law has been shown to you.

3. RS doesn’t sell to consumers. Mouser is American (and I’m honestly not sure whether they will actually ship leaded solder to a consumer). Amazon.fr doesn’t sell leaded solder. (Some third-party sellers do.) So… you’re proving my point?

4. A local seller is not a “reliable source” for what the law is!  I’ve read multiple articles about how small shops are knowingly breaking the law by selling it to consumers.

5. Switzerland isn’t in the EU, but a) that doesn’t mean I can’t be knowledgeable about EU law (just as living in an EU country doesn’t guarantee knowledge of the laws, as you’ve plainly demonstrated), and b) Switzerland actually follows many EU regulations, because it’s easier to conduct trade. Switzerland does follow the European Chemicals Agency (ECHA), so the restrictions on selling lead solder to consumers actually do apply here, too.

6. Nobody is copying “legends” from forum to forum, people are copying the letter of the law to you.

In a nutshell, it’s incredible that you just act like “I was able to buy some, therefore the law doesn’t exist”, despite being shown the law in question. You should learn to shut your mouth when people more knowledgeable than you say things to you.

There are the directives, their interpretation, the local laws, the government application texts (where I live), their interpretation, and also the jurisprudence when something goes to court. This is not accessible with just some googling. And many "forbidden" things are still available and will remain available.

Right. And if you’d read my original post carefully, you’d see that I didn’t say it’s impossible to get, just difficult. It IS forbidden (for consumers), but it doesn’t mean it’s absolutely impossible to get, and I never made that claim.

[Nusa]

Just remember that many people don't read prior responses (the original post was asking about specific US repair places). Unless you're stating your context every time you reply, you're dealing with the readers local context of "the law", which simply isn't the same everywhere.

This is one of those cases where people that choose not to have country codes displayed (or display something clearly not true) actively shoot themselves in the foot contextually, since even the reasonable assumption isn't available.

[robert.rozee]

It IS forbidden (for consumers), but it doesn’t mean it’s absolutely impossible to get, and I never made that claim.

this sounds like a very oppressive law, that allows something to be sold to one group of people, but not to another.

if it is accepted that lead is hazardous substance (i am not commenting on this being true or false), then i could see that purchase could require that the purchaser has to hold a license of some sort. much as purchasing radioactive substances requires a license. likewise for firearms.

but we are not talking about a license. the present case seems more akin to one of saying "white people can purchase alcohol as they are responsible citizens", while "black people are not allowed to purchase alcohol as they behave badly after consuming it". such an argument is repugnant in any civilized society.

in the case of lead, i could therefore see these 'laws' that apparently exist in Europe as anti-competitive, and furthermore an outright restriction of trade - something frowned upon to say the least. i'd not want to be a part of any society that so willingly tramples over its citizens freedoms.


cheers,
rob   :-(

[KaneTW]

this sounds like a very oppressive law, that allows something to be sold to one group of people, but not to another.

Fundamentally I agree. Same with the >15% sulfuric acid ban, >12% h2o2 ban, etc, especially since all those have legitimate household applications that cannot be done effectively by the more dilute versions.

In most cases it's a non-issue though. Anyone can stop being a consumer at any point they choose by registering a business.

[Monkeh]

It IS forbidden (for consumers), but it doesn’t mean it’s absolutely impossible to get, and I never made that claim.

this sounds like a very oppressive law, that allows something to be sold to one group of people, but not to another.

if it is accepted that lead is hazardous substance (i am not commenting on this being true or false), then i could see that purchase could require that the purchaser has to hold a license of some sort. much as purchasing radioactive substances requires a license. likewise for firearms.

but we are not talking about a license. the present case seems more akin to one of saying "white people can purchase alcohol as they are responsible citizens", while "black people are not allowed to purchase alcohol as they behave badly after consuming it". such an argument is repugnant in any civilized society.

in the case of lead, i could therefore see these 'laws' that apparently exist in Europe as anti-competitive, and furthermore an outright restriction of trade - something frowned upon to say the least. i'd not want to be a part of any society that so willingly tramples over its citizens freedoms.


cheers,
rob   :-(

Restriction of trade? Oh, that's horrible, nobody should restrict trade of anyth- wait, no, everyone does that.

Equating "this substance should only be used with care for good reasons" with racism does not make a very good argument.

I imagine you're against restrictions on the sale of alcohol and tobacco to the underage, too.

[KaneTW]

Restriction of trade? Oh, that's horrible, nobody should restrict trade of anyth- wait, no, everyone does that.

The US do not restrict most things (except eg drugs) for sale to the end user.

[Monkeh]

Restriction of trade? Oh, that's horrible, nobody should restrict trade of anyth- wait, no, everyone does that.

The US do not restrict most things (except eg drugs) for sale to the end user.

I'm really not convinced we should use the US as a good example of anything. I should point out you're talking about a country which spent years outlawing the export of ideas outside their borders, and actively seeks day in, day out to undermine the privacy and security of its own citizens. But it's all good because you can buy lead solder you don't need.

[james_s]

Restriction of trade? Oh, that's horrible, nobody should restrict trade of anyth- wait, no, everyone does that.

The US do not restrict most things (except eg drugs) for sale to the end user.

It's getting worse all the time. About 10 years ago I had a heck of a time finding HCl for etching PCBs, now it's very difficult to find H2O2 stronger than 3%. More recently my state outlawed the sale of small cans of R134a which is obnoxious because I'm licensed as a refrigeration tech so I can buy a 30 lb jug of the stuff but I don't want to spend $400 on such a huge quantity that will take up storage space when the small cans meet my needs. I'm thankful that I can still buy lead solder at least but I'm sure that will get banned at some point too.

[robert.rozee]

Equating "this substance should only be used with care for good reasons" with racism does not make a very good argument.

it makes for a very good example, as it clearly highlights the inequity in a way that is hard to trivialise. there are, indeed, still places in the world where such race-based alcohol rules are applied.

I imagine you're against restrictions on the sale of alcohol and tobacco to the underage, too.

under-aged persons are recognized, in law, as not being responsible enough to make an informed decision. an implicit license is granted when turning 21 (or whatever age is specified in your jurisdiction) to drink and smoke.


cheers,
rob   :-)

[DavidKo]

They mostly argue with terrorism/extremism/green deal fight - you can hide there anything from one hand knives (banned in Germany) to chemicals (mostly banned on EU level).
HCl - that is currently available at least in our country
H2O2 - ban does not make sense, since you can buy black powder with age check and diperoxides are dangerous like a hell - whom they try to save? The few people experimenting with it? Criminals source professional stuff. It is mainly used for household applications
H2SO4- I do not understand the ban.
Pb ban - as mentioned before does not make sense for end consumer. I know the guy who suffered lead poisoning, but the reason was, that he was smelting bullets in closed room - it has nothing to do with electronics. It is issue for fishing, shotgun hunting etc. As far as I know the lead cannot be used with hot water (lead water pipes had been used in some old houses).
Hg ban - it is liquid and if someone spill it on floor, than it is hard to remove (it is not an issue to use it in dentistry, where it touches directly the food  ) On the other hand it was quite hard to obtain before the ban.

End consumers bans - law obeying citizens are not happy and criminals do not care about the bans thus getting advantages from it.

[magic]

H2SO4- I do not understand the ban.

This and your failure to even mention HNO₃ only means that you aren't one of the reasons why the ban exists

Besides, Brussels has been overrun by feminists who hate the French/British tradition of disciplining unfaithful wives with acid to the face

[robert.rozee]

H2SO4 - sulfuric acid
HNO3 - nitric acid

so what do Europeans use as an electrolyte in their lead-acid car batteries - of which every car (including hybrids and, i believe, most fully-electric cars) has one. at least in this part of the world, even fully-electric cars still include a lead-acid battery to power the radio, lights, and other low-voltage accessories.

if H2SO4 is banned, then so must be lead-acid car batteries!


i'm now starting to understand why the British were so keen to part company with the EU! it is sounding like a most horribly controlled society.


cheers,
rob   :-)

[magic]

There is an exemption for sulphuric acid inside batteries, and you are not allowed to pour the acid out of them
(Last time I checked, I could even get a bottle of 40% at a battery store and they weren't aware of the ban or didn't care).

The homeland of George Orwell was half the reason for all this idiocy, so I am glad too that they are gone. Now, if France and Germany could go next...

[mzzj]

There is an exemption for sulphuric acid inside batteries, and you are not allowed to pour the acid out of them
(Last time I checked, I could even get a bottle of 40% at a battery store and they weren't aware of the ban or didn't care).

The homeland of George Orwell was half the reason for all this idiocy, so I am glad too that they are gone. Now, if France and Germany could go next...

Poland seem to have less strict implementation of "bomb chemical" bans than some other EU countries.(at least so far)
Some friends that are into chemistry have been ordering chemicals from Poland as you can still get interesting chemicals reasonably easily.

 Leaded solder and sulphuric acid are gone from stores here in Finland. Nitric acid, nitromethane (rc car fuel) and lots of other "bomb chemicals" were outlawed even earlier.

IIRC Breivik (Norwegian mass murderer) also sourced his bomb materials from...Poland 

[Monkeh]

i'm now starting to understand why the British were so keen to part company with the EU! it is sounding like a most horribly controlled society.

Only because you choose to interpret it as such with no effort to research or understand the reality.

[magic]

Poland seem to have less strict implementation of "bomb chemical" bans than some other EU countries.(at least so far)
Some friends that are into chemistry have been ordering chemicals from Poland as you can still get interesting chemicals reasonably easily.

The political order in Poland has always been anarchism, regardless of any external facade at any time
Plus, the idea of blowing up dozens of random strangers is pretty alien here, so nobody considers terrorism a serious problem.

IIRC Breivik (Norwegian mass murderer) also sourced his bomb materials from...Poland 

Sorry about that


Norwegians are sometimes weird like that.

I gaze into the Moon which makes my mind pure as crystal lakes
My eyes cold as the darkest winter nights, but yet there is a flame inside

It guides me into the dark shadows beyond this world
Into the infinity of thoughts... thoughts of upcoming reality

In the name of the almighty Emperor I will ride the Lands in pride
Carrying the Blacksword at hand, in warfare

I will grind my hatred upon the loved ones
Despair will be brought upon
The hoping child of happiness

Wherever there is joy the hordes of the eclipse
Will pollute sadness
Sadness and hate
Under the reign of fear

The lands will grow black
There is no Sunrise to come

.

[coppercone2]

I think Poland understands the need for like interested chemists, easy industry, etc. It might actually stay a sizable industrial power rather then being pidgonholed into some esoteric market like some other EU nations. If you have a good chemical industry thats a high degree of autonomy that means that your kinda self sufficient. You have plenty of implemented experts (not people who have the knowledge and no way to use it, aka will leave at first sign of trouble). It's harder for other people to 'pull your strings.' Of course its all interconnected but it must mean something during international negotiations.

But also I think its important to remember the gun killed 63 people, the bomb killed 8 and wasted his time and money. I guess it did injure alot though. Not saying which one is worse, but the gun is certainly easier. He had to make a cover story, front companies, business plan, etc (not to mention construction and transport), I think he had to develop quite a criminal mastermind scheme to implement that bomb plan. While with the gun its just 'hi, i like to shoot things, here is $500'. If he put that bomb money into training others, he could have done even more damage. 

For those interested in a (sad) song about the event, search for
Röyksopp & Susanne Sundfør ► Running To The Sea (Studio Version)

I don't think its appropriate to link the video in a discussion this serious directly because its still kind of a fun song, if you don't know why it was written.

I imagine there is alot of opportunities in Poland for industrial chemists, since there is alot of heating plants (which themselves benefit from things like air pollution filter research, corrosion research) and there is bound to be a increase for self made advanced goods due to the Europe situation, with the amount of strife the Ukraine war put into the eastern European states. It seems like anything can happen there politically (maybe not in Poland, but the other post-soviet states)...

[magic]

Nobody understand anything and certainly not politicians, it's only chaos that saves us. You see, the EU bans various things that nobody here cares about, but it doesn't send money to enforce the bans, so they remain poorly enforced. It's that simple.

If there were special handouts for that, politicians would immediately jump on the opportunity to steal half of the money for themselves and the remaining half would then go towards knocking on the doors of the remaining vendors of leaded solder, battery electrolyte and so on. That's how it worked when we were friends with the USSR and that's how it works as friends of the EUSSR

[coppercone2]

those decisions should not be taken lightly because it all screws up jobs and that screws up the cities and towns, things should flow.

But I agree that when you follow every regulation that people make then its like a joke, you start getting complaints about money/time/progress from people you would never know existed. Managers know which directives to ignore in order to maintain work flow, I think the economy is similar.

All the problems that these kinds of regulations are often meant to prevent just have their underlying roots grow deeper when there is no money. People get money, people get their products and services and then people forget their problems and vendettas when they see there is so much they can do with life and their resources, its when they are stuck that you get problems  (at least for the reasonable majority), which is why the *SSR/PP/C(om)P etc subfix countries always have high amounts of discontent in their population.


Kinda always reminds me when you are in a bad place at night and you get all these thoughts and anger/fear but then you are thankful you have a couple of bucks in your pocket to call a taxi and then you forget about it for the next decade (wheras before you were ready to dedicate your life to protest or whatever)

The only problem with poor enforcement is that sometimes it can be misused to target someone specifically, if they know everyone is doing something, then you can choose targets for whatever motive with very high 'hit probability'.... poor enforcement + stiff penalties = russia. if the penalties are weak/moderate, at least the effects are mitigated.

[rsjsouza]

It's getting worse all the time. About 10 years ago I had a heck of a time finding HCl for etching PCBs, now it's very difficult to find H2O2 stronger than 3%. More recently my state outlawed the sale of small cans of R134a which is obnoxious because I'm licensed as a refrigeration tech so I can buy a 30 lb jug of the stuff but I don't want to spend $400 on such a huge quantity that will take up storage space when the small cans meet my needs. I'm thankful that I can still buy lead solder at least but I'm sure that will get banned at some point too.

james_s, you should be able to get HCl at any pool store in the shape of Muriatic Acid, which at 37% is already quite strong but can make a good etchant mix. H₂O₂ will probably be worth to pay a visit to the Hair products store - you can usually get up to 30 volumes (40 if you have a license of sorts) in both cream and liquid forms. Also, with the covid craze, even Amazon was selling 7% (IIRC) gallon jugs.

[james_s]

james_s, you should be able to get HCl at any pool store in the shape of Muriatic Acid, which at 37% is already quite strong but can make a good etchant mix. H₂O₂ will probably be worth to pay a visit to the Hair products store - you can usually get up to 30 volumes (40 if you have a license of sorts) in both cream and liquid forms. Also, with the covid craze, even Amazon was selling 7% (IIRC) gallon jugs.

You would think so, but all I could find at the time was "muriatic acid substitute", I don't remember what it actually was. I eventually found the real stuff at a concrete supply trade counter, I bought a gallon and still have about half of it left, a little goes a long way.

[rsjsouza]

Come to think of it, during the covid craze the pool chemicals based on Chlorine were indeed in very short supply - at least where I live.
The substitutes that I saw are CO₂ or some variation of it to create carbonic acid, but the quantities needed are incredibly higher that muriatic.

[james_s]

This was over 10 years ago so long before Covid, I think the stuff I found was similar to this. https://lesliespool.com/acid-magic---muriatic-acid-alternative/bd773ed4-90e9-4b51-bc1a-dc206f255442.html