EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Electronics => Repair => Topic started by: viranj on July 28, 2014, 04:16:08 pm
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Hi..
I am Using Sony Vaio Model No: VGN-FE45G/W.
in Iam working with my Laptop Suddenly Keyboard failure.
In keyboard Any Keys Cannot Operate it. So I use Some Days With External Keyboard. Recently Power Off my Laptop. Cannot Power On again. i Try So many Ways to try start. Battery Removed apply D.C adapter power. Nothing Happened. Battery Power Apply and On Again. Nothing Happened. I try Cmos Battery Jack Remove and Pushed again,. Nothing Happened.
No Leds on No Noises, No Beep Sounds, No Screen Blinking.
D.C Adapter Working. Battery Working. Main Board Removed and Applying D.C Adapter . In Conncted D.C. Adapter Jack I check Voltage With Multimeter. It Shows 19.5 Voltage. so Voltage pass O.k.
IN Main Board is Fault. How to Rectify that. How Can i Find Out Problem in Main Board.???
few details about my Laptop.
Sony Main Board Version is MBX 149 (MS 13, Rev 1.1)
(I have Little Bit Experience In Hardware Basics , and i have schematic above this Main Board)
PLease Help us.??? what to do??? How to Check voltages components in Main board with multi meter to find out Problem.???
Thank You.
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First of all, you pull out everything, ram, drives, anything and everything that can easily be pulled out, and try again.
Then you figure out how to get the "beep codes" from the BIOS.
After that, you go on ebay, look for an identical model for dirt cheap, and buy that rather than wasting your time trying to fault find.
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I agree, if removing the extras like the battery does not help, and you can't see an obvious fault inside, just replace it.
One thing I will say though, is the internals structure of some laptops aren't the best - for example one model I did repair (common fault) was an old Toshiba which had insufficient support under the keyboard. Ever since it was new, every person who rested their palms on it, was actually slightly putting weight on one of the main power connectors - until one day - no more power ups.
I mention this because it might be worth looking inside for any connectors which may have been exposed to stress.
To fix the fault on the old Toshiba all I did was run my soldering iron past the tiny connectors causing it to reflow the solder.
(NB: there are lots of other things it could be, this is just one thing to think about, since the keyboard died while you were typing)
But I never diagnosed the fault - I guessed and it worked.
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Reseating the memory modules might bring it back to life. I had a system with no Post codes and no video, on board LED was green, swapped video cards problem remain until I took the memory out and place it back in. Then it was back to life.
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I am already Removed All components from Main Board. I try to Find on ebay and Amazon my main board. But Suggested Model Not Available at present.
and My Main Board Problem Is Small. cannot ON the Power.????
how to find out the Problem . Just it....
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It doesn't make a series of beeps on boot?
That will be the POST code error if any.
Without the memory it won't boot at all btw.
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first power failure before stuck at booting. and after than i restarted again laptop A.C Led blinking on Laptop after than gone out completely.
No Beep Sounds. No display On. No Led's On.
I checked voltage on Mother board it will displays 19.5 volts at D.C. jack input. And checked power button voltage it shows 5 to 6 volts. some thing missing voltage i
n power button.??
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Make sure the fan is rotating. My Vaio Z1 shuts down immediately if the fan is stuck.
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Make sure LDO3 (ECVCC) and LDO5 outputs of the MAX8734 are OK. The EC (KB3910) should receive power and then shortly afterwards turn on the 5VALW/3VALW supplies via ALW_ON.
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I Checked outputs Voltages in Max8734. It shows LDO3 2.22v and LDO5 3.20 volts.
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diagrams so others can see it too
http://kythuatphancung.vn/download/sony-vaio-fe880e-foxconn-ms13-mbx149-laptop-schematics.html?dl (http://kythuatphancung.vn/download/sony-vaio-fe880e-foxconn-ms13-mbx149-laptop-schematics.html?dl)
>LDO3 2.22v
should be 3v
>and LDO5 3.20 volts.
should be 5v
where did you measure those? after some mosfets of directly on inductors?
Max8734 ALW_PWRGD?
'Sony MBX-149 VGN-FE motherboard with GO 7600'
well, there is your problem, If you didnt measure voltages I would just said GPU needs to be replaced, but you say keyboard died first , so its something else
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Have you tried to power it on with the keyboard disconnected?
Its possible that the power/volume/function buttons uses the same bus as the keyboard, and the bad keyboard are preventing it to work.
Either way, these voltage lines you've measured are unacceptable.
Did you put a proper load in your power supply adapter while measuring it? It may be providing 19v with no load, but may drop with your laptop load.
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diagrams so others can see it too
http://kythuatphancung.vn/download/sony-vaio-fe880e-foxconn-ms13-mbx149-laptop-schematics.html?dl (http://kythuatphancung.vn/download/sony-vaio-fe880e-foxconn-ms13-mbx149-laptop-schematics.html?dl)
>LDO3 2.22v
should be 3v
>and LDO5 3.20 volts.
should be 5v
where did you measure those? after some mosfets of directly on inductors?
Max8734 ALW_PWRGD?
'Sony MBX-149 VGN-FE motherboard with GO 7600'
well, there is your problem, If you didnt measure voltages I would just said GPU needs to be replaced, but you say keyboard died first , so its something else
I did measure those Voltages on Max 8734. LDO3 pin no: 25 . it displays 2.22 v. and LDO5 IS Pin No:18. It Shows 3.20 Volts.
where is the power voltages missing.??
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Have you tried to power it on with the keyboard disconnected?
Its possible that the power/volume/function buttons uses the same bus as the keyboard, and the bad keyboard are preventing it to work.
Either way, these voltage lines you've measured are unacceptable.
Did you put a proper load in your power supply adapter while measuring it? It may be providing 19v with no load, but may drop with your laptop load.
Yes.
I check D.C adapter Voltage it Shows 19.5 Volts With / With out load. adapter works Perfectly. i checked after connected on board D.C Voltage it shows 19.5 v.
power/volume Buttons are separate and functions works perfectly. only Problem is Keyboard and Power On .
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Is the MAX8734 getting hot? If it is, then something is shorting out the LDOs (they can only supply 100mA max), otherwise it could be defective or the internal reference that supplies the LDOs is - check the REF pin too (across PC301 would be a good place), there should be almost exactly 2V on it. Note that as the datasheet says, there cannot be more than 100uA drawn out of this pin or the voltage will sag.
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Is the MAX8734 getting hot? If it is, then something is shorting out the LDOs (they can only supply 100mA max), otherwise it could be defective or the internal reference that supplies the LDOs is - check the REF pin too (across PC301 would be a good place), there should be almost exactly 2V on it. Note that as the datasheet says, there cannot be more than 100uA drawn out of this pin or the voltage will sag.
No hot on max 8734 . Its cool. and i Checked again REF Pin PC301 there should exactly 2.01v. and again checked LDO3 PIN no.25 IT SHOWS 3.40V AND LDO5 PIN no.18 IT SHOWS 5.11 V. On it. Alw P Good Pin no.2 It Shows 3.37 v.
and Pin NO 3 alw on 3 it shows 3.34 v. and same again Pin no 4 On 5 it shows 3.34V. How it is???
i checked every LDO'S, ALWON AND PGOOD pins 4 to 5 times.
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todays measurements are with smps running (after pressing power on button, on3=on5=3v), at this point ldo3/ldo5 is using smps and can supply more current
at least we know it starts
KB3910 is responsible for run_on/run_on1 signals that turn on mosfets redistributing power around. Does KB3910 get enough voltage on its vcc? it should be connected to LDO3, does it get hot?
did things like battery charge led work after keyboard initially died? do those leds work now?
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If it has an Nvidia video chip the problem is almost certainly there. Those are known for thermally stressing the RoHS solder and cracking it. You can many times bake the board to reflow the solder.
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measure everything twice, before and after pressing power button
unplug cmos battery
measure j2 (rtc_rst)
check:
d21 schottky
c721/c723
pc327
pd35
c793 794 798 796 797
q102
c804 c1306
c806
etc, basically every capacitor connected to ecvcc
Stonent GPU usually doesnt prevent from starting, on vaio its KBC or power rails.
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todays measurements are with smps running (after pressing power on button, on3=on5=3v), at this point ldo3/ldo5 is using smps and can supply more current
at least we know it starts
KB3910 is responsible for run_on/run_on1 signals that turn on mosfets redistributing power around. Does KB3910 get enough voltage on its vcc? it should be connected to LDO3, does it get hot?
did things like battery charge led work after keyboard initially died? do those leds work now?
Where can I check Voltages are Run_on/Run_on1. in KB3910 or Max8743(Pu3).
I check Those chip Pins In KB3910
Run_on= Pin no:162 - 0.00v
Run_on1=pin no:148 - 0.00v
Ecvcc pin no: 161.. 3.34v
Ecvcc Pin No: 16... 3.34v
and Max8743 (pu3)
Run on pin no 11...0.00v
Run on1 pin no12...0.00v
No heat on Chips.. KB3910 and Max8734 .
and battery Charge Led and Power On led 's Working after Keyboard is dead.
at now No led's ON. No LIghts are Blinking. No Beep Sounds.
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measure everything twice, before and after pressing power button !!one7
I check Those chip Pins In KB3910
Ecvcc pin no: 161.. 3.34v
Ecvcc Pin No: 16... 3.34v
pin.95?
and battery Charge Led and Power On led 's Working after Keyboard is dead.
at now No led's ON. No LIghts are Blinking. No Beep Sounds.
no charging or ac led suggests EC (KB3910) not working at all now, either its not powering up due to power/bios, or its dead
oh yeah, check voltages on the bios chip, I think EC loads its own firmware from there
You might try just replacing ec outright (3-5 bucks with long shipping)
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.XKB3910SFC1&_nkw=KB3910SFC1&_sacat=0 (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.XKB3910SFC1&_nkw=KB3910SFC1&_sacat=0)
again, re measure ldo3/5 after unplugging battery and ac and without pressing power, is it still really 2v/3v? if it is and you have hotair then lift EC from the board and measure again
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Stonent GPU usually doesnt prevent from starting, on vaio its KBC or power rails.
It's very common on Dell and HP.
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Stonent GPU usually doesnt prevent from starting, on vaio its KBC or power rails.
It's very common on Dell and HP.
no its not, bad gpu will deffo prevent booting, but not block at least starting power rails / blinking some leds
bad nvidia gpus go upen, not short
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pin.95?
pin no.95 .....3.36V
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measure everything twice, before and after pressing power button !!one7
I check Those chip Pins In KB3910
Ecvcc pin no: 161.. 3.34v
Ecvcc Pin No: 16... 3.34v
pin.95?
and battery Charge Led and Power On led 's Working after Keyboard is dead.
at now No led's ON. No LIghts are Blinking. No Beep Sounds.
no charging or ac led suggests EC (KB3910) not working at all now, either its not powering up due to power/bios, or its dead
oh yeah, check voltages on the bios chip, I think EC loads its own firmware from there
You might try just replacing ec outright (3-5 bucks with long shipping)
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.XKB3910SFC1&_nkw=KB3910SFC1&_sacat=0 (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.XKB3910SFC1&_nkw=KB3910SFC1&_sacat=0)
again, re measure ldo3/5 after unplugging battery and ac and without pressing power, is it still really 2v/3v? if it is and you have hotair then lift EC from the board and measure again
KB3910 PIN No.95.....3.36V
again i rechecked again LdO3 ...3.34V AND LDO5 ....5.11V AND REF PIN 2.01V. These values checked only With A.C Adapter and Without Pressing Power Button.
When Internal Keyboard is Dead. after i am working with External Keyboard 2 to 3 Months. Recently Power Failure Problem Occured.
Run Power voltage is Missing??? RUN_ON..0.00V RUN_ON1...0.00V. IN MAX8743. PwGood PIN NO:7 ALSO 0.00V.
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Does pin 2 of the KB3910 start out at 3.3V and go near 0V when the power button is pressed?
ALW_ON should go high and turn on the MAX8734's 3VALW and 5VALW before any of the RUN_* can start, so check ALW_ON (pin 3/4 of MAX8734), 3VALW (across PC73/74/75), and 5VALW (across PC76/77/80) first.
ALW_ON is high only if GPIO23 (pin 108) of KB3910 and ALW_ON1 is high.
ALW_ON1 is generated via some logic at the bottom of page 56, check that ALW_ON1 is also high.
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If it has an Nvidia video chip the problem is almost certainly there. Those are known for thermally stressing the RoHS solder and cracking it. You can many times bake the board to reflow the solder.
Nvidia problem is not directly RoHS related and not soldering related at all. GPU fails by itself, heating revives it for some time until inevitable fail. And it definately is not the fault because laptop is completely dead, even no led lights. Considering that previously keyboard stopped working, most likely KB3910 is faulty. Personally wouldn't waste too much time on diagnostics because it cost only 4 dollars on ebay.
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Does pin 2 of the KB3910 start out at 3.3V and go near 0V when the power button is pressed?
ALW_ON should go high and turn on the MAX8734's 3VALW and 5VALW before any of the RUN_* can start, so check ALW_ON (pin 3/4 of MAX8734), 3VALW (across PC73/74/75), and 5VALW (across PC76/77/80) first.
ALW_ON is high only if GPIO23 (pin 108) of KB3910 and ALW_ON1 is high.
ALW_ON1 is generated via some logic at the bottom of page 56, check that ALW_ON1 is also high.
Yes KB3910 PIN NO.2....3.34V.
ALW_ON in MAX8734.. PIN NO.3...3.34V same Voltage Running in Pin NO.4...3.34V.
but Ldo 3 ...3.3v and Ldo5...5.11v are Running Correct Voltages.
I measuring Max8734 These Pin No.3 And Pin no.4 voltages ten times above. but same voltage Running. 3.34v
and in KB3910 (GPIO23) Pin 108 also 3.3v
.......
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dude, how many times?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Configuration_and_Power_Interface (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Configuration_and_Power_Interface)
there are TWO (2) main states computer can be in:
- S5/standby/soft off - this is just after you plug AC and/or battery into powered off motherboard, no buttons pressed
- S0/poweron - everything is powered up, all voltages up, cpu starts running
Pressing power button makes EC go from S5 to S0, it does this going thru suspend modes (S3, S1). It starts by powering different voltage rails, ram, chipsets, and then cpu.
You need to measure everything twice (two times, 2x), first in S5, then after you press power button, monitoring certain signals while you press power button helps (bonus points for logic analyser).
At this point I still dont know if your first measurements
>It shows LDO3 2.22v and LDO5 3.20 volts.
were a mistake, or real voltages in S5.
btw: was this laptop water damaged (spill on keyobard)?
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dude, how many times?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Configuration_and_Power_Interface (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Configuration_and_Power_Interface)
there are TWO (2) main states computer can be in:
- S5/standby/soft off - this is just after you plug AC and/or battery into powered off motherboard, no buttons pressed
- S0/poweron - everything is powered up, all voltages up, cpu starts running
Pressing power button makes EC go from S5 to S0, it does this going thru suspend modes (S3, S1). It starts by powering different voltage rails, ram, chipsets, and then cpu.
You need to measure everything twice (two times, 2x), first in S5, then after you press power button, monitoring certain signals while you press power button helps (bonus points for logic analyser).
At this point I still dont know if your first measurements
>It shows LDO3 2.22v and LDO5 3.20 volts.
were a mistake, or real voltages in S5.
btw: was this laptop water damaged (spill on keyobard)?
ThankYou for Great Information Rasz.
I Try to measure S5 voltages. but can't configured that voltages. where it will be pass and how to analyse that.??? confused???
So You can drive me where to check S5 voltages. which IC ,MOSFETS, Pins etc.,
and trying to check S5 voltages. When power button pressed in power switch board 3 LED'S are lights on only 5 secs. after that Led Lights off. can't stay..
btw: was this laptop water damaged (spill on keyboard)? >>>>>> No Water Damaged or Liquid spill on Keyboard.
and i found nearby battery connector PD32 component missing???
If KB3910 Replace can Solve two problems (Power and Keyboard) or not???
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every time you post its something different :/ first it was whole thing dead, now you say leds work ?
>When power button pressed in power switch board 3 LED'S are lights on only 5 secs. after that Led Lights off. can't stay..
THIS is one of GPU failure modes, bios cant initialize gpu and turns computer off. GPU bad, need replacement, ~>$100 + labour, after that someone would probably need to replace keyboard or keyboard controller. all in all more than whole laptop is worth.
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every time you post its something different :/ first it was whole thing dead, now you say leds work ?
>When power button pressed in power switch board 3 LED'S are lights on only 5 secs. after that Led Lights off. can't stay..
THIS is one of GPU failure modes, bios cant initialize gpu and turns computer off. GPU bad, need replacement, ~>$100 + labour, after that someone would probably need to replace keyboard or keyboard controller. all in all more than whole laptop is worth.
Yes. This Problem is i Observed. when put load in to Mother board (CPU, RAM, HARD DISK, DVD WRITER, KEYBOARD..etc.,). Voltages Drop Down. Once Turn On with Load stuck at booting only 10 to 15 secs . after that automatically turned off. can't turn on again. I Remove all Components from Motherboard. and check voltages in LdO3 ...2.22v and LDO5 3.20 Volts. so Voltage Drops in to MAX8734 With Load.
hmmm.......O.K . Rasz. I decided Replace my Board MBX 149. so i want to buy a new Board in Low Cost.
but I want to buy a board advanced configuration with Nvidia graphics chip. Replace like my Board just Insert in to CPU new board and use)
But My Main Board is MBX 149. MS 13 NVIDIA GO7600. I Want upgraded Version to Suitable My Board.
I don't know which is latestversion board. Mainly Nvidia Graphics Chip version. I search in Ebay/Amazon. Available MBX 149 Boards in Reasonable Range 30$ to 50$. But i can't decided why because There are all Boards MBX 149 in MS 12 or 11 With Nvidia GO7400. Some Boards With / Without Graphics chip , Wireless Lan board, South bridge and North Bridge etc.,.
So You strongly recommend Which is latest and Best with all. I go to buy a Board Online first time.
So Please Give me a Suggested a Link.
OR
How can i Repair My Board.
Thank You.
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Buy KB 3910 on ebay for a few bucks. Possibility that it will help is more than high enough to try. However it might be tricky if you don't have experience with soldering fine pitch parts. Buying used/"refubrished" motherboard with nvidia GPU might be a lemon. You may get MB with faulty GPU which was heated to give it some more life. 7000 series GPU's were not so bad as 8000 ones in that aspect (~90% possibility to get MB with crap GPU), but probability is very high anyway. Moreover even if it is not faulty, you never now how much life is left in it. So it is better idea to repair this one of buy another MB with integrated GPU to be safe.
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Buy KB 3910 on ebay for a few bucks. Possibility that it will help is more than high enough to try. However it might be tricky if you don't have experience with soldering fine pitch parts. Buying used/"refubrished" motherboard with nvidia GPU might be a lemon. You may get MB with faulty GPU which was heated to give it some more life. 7000 series GPU's were not so bad as 8000 ones in that aspect (~90% possibility to get MB with crap GPU), but probability is very high anyway. Moreover even if it is not faulty, you never now how much life is left in it. So it is better idea to repair this one of buy another MB with integrated GPU to be safe.
^pretty much this
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Buy KB 3910 on ebay for a few bucks. Possibility that it will help is more than high enough to try. However it might be tricky if you don't have experience with soldering fine pitch parts. Buying used/"refubrished" motherboard with nvidia GPU might be a lemon. You may get MB with faulty GPU which was heated to give it some more life. 7000 series GPU's were not so bad as 8000 ones in that aspect (~90% possibility to get MB with crap GPU), but probability is very high anyway. Moreover even if it is not faulty, you never now how much life is left in it. So it is better idea to repair this one of buy another MB with integrated GPU to be safe.
Thank You Wraper.
I Buy KB3910 on Ebay. I can try to change this.
but i found on my MB some Missing Components.
i don't know these are Really Missing or ????
if Really Missing ..which components i Replace...
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but i found on my MB some Missing Components.
i don't know these are Really Missing or ????
if Really Missing ..which components i Replace...
I see a chip on the pcb (first photo) but for me it looks like that there was not any part from the beginning. On the second photo looks like a dirt over non populated pads or burn with missing part. Hard to say, photos are not clear enough, if there is a free place it does not mean that there was something, need more magnification to be sure.
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but i found on my MB some Missing Components.
i don't know these are Really Missing or ????
if Really Missing ..which components i Replace...
I see a chip on the pcb (first photo) but for me it looks like that there was not any part from the beginning. On the second photo looks like a dirt over non populated pads or burn with missing part. Hard to say, photos are not clear enough, if there is a free place it does not mean that there was something, need more magnification to be sure.
Is that corrosion from fluid ingress on the second picture?
If you look at other devices some of the pins are oxidised/corroded too (EG the solder pins on connector header).
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pd32 should be there, but its only used on battery power, wouldnt matter with charger plugged