Author Topic: Airbag controller in 2000's car  (Read 1347 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline old gregg

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 116
  • Country: fr
Airbag controller in 2000's car
« on: July 10, 2019, 07:37:59 pm »
Does someone have experiences with the old airbag controller system ?

I've an old Daewoo Lanos from 2000 that needs the central airbag controller to be changed (under thef front passanger seat). I'm wondering if I can get a second hand one from the same model (I  have all the identification codes).

what kind of data is shared in this system ? does it have an software identification code that make it unique for each cars (althought I've doubts about that considering how old the car is)?

having a new one installed and programmed by the current owner of the brand (Opel/Chevrolet) will cost me an arm (and maybe a kidney) and I'm not sure they're sure what's wrong.

I'd like to know a bit more about it before doing things.

talking about that guy :


thanks.

 
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 02:34:24 pm by old gregg »
 

Offline coromonadalix

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3200
  • Country: ca
Re: Airbag sensor in 2000's car
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2019, 08:43:28 pm »
You should register on car forums, youll get better help there ?
 

Online bdunham7

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2194
  • Country: us
Re: Airbag sensor in 2000's car
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2019, 09:45:08 pm »
I don't know specifically because the Lanos was a pretty rare car in the US market.  Don't take this personally, but they were a terrible car and didn't sell well, they were abandoned and parts became either unavailable or unaffordable.  Thus I can't be sure, but I suspect that the junkyard unit may work OK.  Module swapping became more difficult right around this time period--if it were a Volvo it would likely be impossible--but the Lanos was based on slightly older, leftover technology.  So I'd give it a try, assuming that the car's value is such that you just aren't willing to go with the dealer's proposed repair.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline maginnovision

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1958
  • Country: us
Re: Airbag sensor in 2000's car
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2019, 05:18:00 am »
You should have no problems doing a swap if that is the actual issue.
 

Offline paul8f

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 102
  • Country: ie
Re: Airbag sensor in 2000's car
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2019, 10:18:36 am »
You should register on car forums, youll get better help there ?

Agree with coromonadalix here. You never know... somebody on a car forum somewhere may have had the exact same issue you're having now.

I would advise you to be absolutely sure it's the Airbag Module... a recommended OBD2 tool for this kind of fault seems to be the FOXWELL NT630 Elite ABS SRS Scan Tool (STG £70 on Amazon).

If carrying out repairs on the SRS system yourself, I would recommend you disconnect the negative terminal from the car battery and wait at least 1 hour to remove any residual charge, before you disconnect or re-connect any airbag wiring. Could just an be urban-legend, but supposedly with airbag wiring harnesses, the rapid change in voltage can be enough to trigger the system.

You don't want an expensive and difficult to find airbag going off (especially in your face... :box:)
 

Offline old gregg

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 116
  • Country: fr
Re: Airbag sensor in 2000's car
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2019, 11:11:04 am »
Thanks for the answers !!

Quote
Agree with coromonadalix here. You never know... somebody on a car forum somewhere may have had the exact same issue you're having now.

I did it but I though the EEVblog being an electronic forum,  maybe someone worked in that department (airbag system) and knows the answers.

The lanos is also quite rare in here. I couldn't find a single garage with the proper ODB2 diagnostic tool hence why I went to the official dealer (well not really...it was OPEL, 142 euros for pluging a connector and reading a LCD screen...). The connector is an old one and the software that goes with ins't in their "generic" Bosh tool either.

The official repair shop asks for 901 euros ( :o :o) for the fix. their module cost 500euros and the rest is for the swap, they need to program the module. Quite expensive for dumping an hex file into an old processor and do the swapping...

Quote
I would advise you to be absolutely sure it's the Airbag Module... a recommended OBD2 tool for this kind of fault seems to be the FOXWELL NT630 Elite ABS SRS Scan Tool (STG £70 on Amazon).]

I'm sure, they gave me the error codes in the invoice and the corresponding faults. Another repair shop gave me the same error codes in March. I though about getting the proper tool myself anyway.

Quote
If carrying out repairs on the SRS system yourself, I would recommend you disconnect the negative terminal from the car battery and wait at least 1 hour to remove any residual charge, before you disconnect or re-connect any airbag wiring. Could just an be urban-legend, but supposedly with airbag wiring harnesses, the rapid change in voltage can be enough to trigger the system.

I've already done some checking and yes I disconnected the battery. better being safe than dead I guess. Although it seemed that the system doesn't trigger that easily, I've read some things about it and the command line is complex.
 

Offline coromonadalix

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3200
  • Country: ca
Re: Airbag sensor in 2000's car
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2019, 11:44:12 am »
Quote
If carrying out repairs on the SRS system yourself, I would recommend you disconnect the negative terminal from the car battery and wait at least 1 hour to remove any residual charge, before you disconnect or re-connect any airbag wiring. Could just an be urban-legend, but supposedly with airbag wiring harnesses, the rapid change in voltage can be enough to trigger the system.

I did that,  i had on my Suzuku Grand Vitara  2007 (jb627) to replace my  2 front air bags impact sensors, ( normally sold for 250$  each) i had disconnected the air bags voltage supply lines after disconnecting the batterie, and shorted out the 2 battery leads, to be sure i drop any residual voltage,   rusted connectors stayed in my hands, 1 sensor broke too (rusted) and broken bolts, had to go to a scrap yard to find good ones and the connectors (had to do lots of google search to find the car manual) until i ended up in a Suzuki forum,   Replaced / changed everything, seems to work  loll

Sure i wont crash my car to a wall to see if they open loll  I managed to get "cough cough" the Suzuki SDT2 softwares and a converted Ford vcm2 to Suzuki  car interface .... bought from obd2express  $$$

The vcm2 reports everything is fine for the airbag sytem, BUT  i have an ESP error ( Traction control and abs system)  the abs pump kit cost 1200$ usd, a very rare item to find on a scrap yard for an "manual transmission"   "yeah stupid me to have bought a manual one   eh  loll"  ...  i wont change it, the abs system work fine,  the eps system will choke the motor rpm in certain situations (and i hated that)  i'll live with this defect :)

I do understand your frustration, but eh   what can we do.  My suv is an oldie, parts getting very scarce to find, had to change a drive shaft due to vibations, @@%@  garage did a bad job, paid over 400$ for a botched job, no refund, lost 2 weeks of problems, and other small problems who can get serious if unatended. 

You have MHH Auto forums, cartechnology.co.uk forums    surely you  can find a dedicated forum for your problems.


A Friend wth an BMW suv, could not install a new media radio with a sirius,  unless the radio serial number is accepted / programmed in the car computer, what a joke,   any company has their quirks ...

http://www.obdexpress.co.uk/     has tons of programmers, obd2 tools  etc ...  bought my vcm2 there.


And for safety reasons  you have to know what youre doing .... ?

OH   maybe if you could find the same system module with "its" car ECU, it could work,  they must be serial matched / programmed together ??
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 12:02:46 pm by coromonadalix »
 

Offline SparkyFX

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 666
  • Country: de
Re: Airbag sensor in 2000's car
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2019, 01:07:09 pm »
The official repair shop asks for 901 euros ( :o :o) for the fix. their module cost 500euros and the rest is for the swap, they need to program the module. Quite expensive for dumping an hex file into an old processor and do the swapping...
In case the Lanos was available with different options, like curtain airbags or seat belt pretensioners in the rear seats, the connectors might be mechanically coded (can only be inserted in a controller that supports the set of options for this car) and the programming needs to reflect that as well, otherwise the warning indicator will be on constantly.

What you got there - and by your description of its location - looks like the controller anyway, not a sensor. While newer ones might contain a sensor that detects rollover (it would be a bad idea to turn it around while on), it probably does not contain sensors.

Quote
I would advise you to be absolutely sure it's the Airbag Module... a recommended OBD2 tool for this kind of fault seems to be the FOXWELL NT630 Elite ABS SRS Scan Tool (STG £70 on Amazon).]
Reading trouble codes might work with such tools, but i wouldn´t trust 3rd party tools with configuration whatsoever, the patterns for these are proprietary and might have changed arbitrarily.

Quote
I'm sure, they gave me the error codes in the invoice and the corresponding faults. Another repair shop gave me the same error codes in March.
Which ones? The warning indicator can come on for all kinds of reasons, like a broken voltage regulator, generating overvoltage or broken wiring to sensors or actuators.
The most likely fails are seat belt pretensioner wiring under the seat.

Quote
If carrying out repairs on the SRS system yourself, I would recommend you disconnect the negative terminal from the car battery and wait at least 1 hour to remove any residual charge, before you disconnect or re-connect any airbag wiring. Could just an be urban-legend, but supposedly with airbag wiring harnesses, the rapid change in voltage can be enough to trigger the system.
Airbag wiring contains shorting bars that need to be put in manually, but when working on it they might be disenganged. In general the system is supposed to work with ignition on only (see GM ignition switch problem).
Before someone starts probing around with a continuity tester or the popular test lights, the power might better be off, otherwise there is the risk of powering up the system in an invalid state, leading to very unexpected, dangerous results.

Quote
I've already done some checking and yes I disconnected the battery. better being safe than dead I guess. Although it seemed that the system doesn't trigger that easily, I've read some things about it and the command line is complex.
Some sensors rely on spontaneous ambient pressure changes, others use acceleration.

Once we are talking about a defective car and the defect is unknown it could be anything, including any wire shorting any other wire, activating any function.

« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 01:27:36 pm by SparkyFX »
Support your local planet.
 

Offline old gregg

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 116
  • Country: fr
Re: Airbag sensor in 2000's car
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2019, 01:42:18 pm »
Quote
In case the Lanos was available with different options, like curtain airbags or seat belt pretensioners in the rear seats, the connectors might be mechanically coded (can only be inserted in a controller that supports the set of options for this car) and the programming needs to reflect that as well, otherwise the warning indicator will be on constantly.

What you got there - and by your description of its location - looks like the controller anyway, not a sensor. While newer ones might contain a sensor that detects rollover (it would be a bad idea to turn it around while on), it probably does not contain sensors

I should correct the topic title, it's about the controller not the sensor. As you said and I asked a Mechanic who comfirmed it, I should put the correct one depending on the car's options. I've written down the information and the code motor. Now, do every cars of the same model with the asme options have different software making the swap impossible ?  :-//

Quote
Which ones? The warning indicator can come on for all kinds of reasons, like a broken voltage regulator, generating over-voltage or broken wiring to sensors or actuators.
The most likely fails are seat belt pretensioner wiring under the seat.

I found the service manual, the errors are linked to the power supply (none at the controller) and therefore the controller is dead.

I'll look more deeply into the probleme next week.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 02:32:24 pm by old gregg »
 

Offline SparkyFX

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 666
  • Country: de
Re: Airbag controller in 2000's car
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2019, 12:04:38 am »
I should correct the topic title, it's about the controller not the sensor. As you said and I asked a Mechanic who comfirmed it, I should put the correct one depending on the car's options. I've written down the information and the code motor. Now, do every cars of the same model with the asme options have different software making the swap impossible ?  :-//
As far as i can tell rewriting configuration is usually not advised or intended (and technically locked), as otherwise controllers from crashed cars might end up in the used parts market and no one is going to accept liabilities for the consequences. Cars eventually do get sold, passengers carried, so every botched job on safety critical systems means some other persons life might be at risk, not just the owner taking the decision. Which is why repair manuals prohibit this form of reuse. So it more or less must be new, whoever repairs it must do it according to the repair manual to avoid liabilities in case of a malfunction.

Same partnumber or a successor partnumber should fit.

Quote
I found the service manual, the errors are linked to the power supply (none at the controller) and therefore the controller is dead.
Some shops do have the misconception that a trouble code in a component means the component is broken. If the tool is able to read trouble codes from the controller, it can not be dead - it communicated, if the warning indicator toggles during power up it was able to switch it.

During under- or overvoltage components can go offline as well, so check the battery voltage while the engine is running.
Support your local planet.
 

Offline maginnovision

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1958
  • Country: us
Re: Airbag controller in 2000's car
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2019, 01:06:15 am »
Here are a couple things I found from alldata. It's pretty typical so nothing special, like I'd expected. No TSB's available.
 

Offline old gregg

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 116
  • Country: fr
Re: Airbag controller in 2000's car
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2019, 06:32:35 pm »
Quote
Some shops do have the misconception that a trouble code in a component means the component is broken.

tell me about it, they didn't even open the fuseboxes or took a look under the seat.  :palm:

Quote
If the tool is able to read trouble codes from the controller, it can not be dead - it communicated, if the warning indicator toggles during power up it was able to switch it.

It appears that in my case the module can be dead and therefore lit the check lamp (see attachments).

I've the error codes 23,24,25,31. So it might be that the module doesn't get the juice. bad connection, dead fuse, loose wire...

Quote
Which is why repair manuals prohibit this form of reuse. So it more or less must be new, whoever repairs it must do it according to the repair manual to avoid liabilities in case of a malfunction.

In my researches I found two companies that offer the reprogramming of a crashed or faulty module. I don't know how they work and the quality. But yes the service manual clearly states that the module needs to be changed in some cases.

 
 

Offline maginnovision

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1958
  • Country: us
Re: Airbag controller in 2000's car
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2019, 08:38:08 pm »
You have virtually no info and you want to criticize the people who tried to diagnose it. That's pretty classic.

I've attached descriptions and step by step instructions for all 4 faults and the system schematic. F31 in particular says one thing, replace the module. You can try and fault them for not doing this or that but when a self-test reports as failed the technicians are told to do a single thing, replace the module. Now the under and over voltage faults are another issue but those can lead to requiring replacement as well. No brand will EVER say to try any repair and safety critical parts for obvious reasons. I'm still recommending removing the old unit, replacing with a known good unit, and calling it a day. You may need to clear faults as well. If you cleared faults and 31 in particular came back you know very well that it's trash. Techs will save time when they're dealing with a car like yours often times because there is a very high chance there is no money in it for them since you won't pay to repair it. You see under/over voltage faults, a lamp fault(controlled by SDM), and an internal fault you can be PRETTY CERTAIN the module is dead. It seems like you agree the unit is dead but want to complain about opening a fuse box or popping the seat quick. If you were watching into the car the entire time you'd know they didn't. If you weren't watching the whole time though it takes all of a couple minutes to pop the seat and check supply voltage and it's possible they did check. I'm not trying to defend every tech because hacks are out there but you really shouldn't be criticizing if you don't have much/any experience.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 08:45:27 pm by maginnovision »
 

Offline old gregg

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 116
  • Country: fr
Re: Airbag controller in 2000's car
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2019, 09:05:52 pm »
Quote
If you weren't watching the whole time though it takes all of a couple minutes to pop the seat and check supply voltage and it's possible they did check

Nope they didn't, I assure you unless they put the rust and dirt back on...but you're right Maginnovision I'm a bit unfair to them. My bad. I know that technicians have processes to respect and they didn't made them.   

Quote
'm still recommending removing the old unit, replacing with a known good unit, and calling it a day.

I'll probably do. But It cost nothing to verify the fuse and the connector.

I won't do stupid things, especially regarding the safety of the car and mine.

thanks for your help guys !
 

Offline maginnovision

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1958
  • Country: us
Re: Airbag controller in 2000's car
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2019, 09:24:25 pm »
Quote
If you weren't watching the whole time though it takes all of a couple minutes to pop the seat and check supply voltage and it's possible they did check

Nope they didn't, I assure you unless they put the rust and dirt back on...but you're right Maginnovision I'm a bit unfair to them. My bad. I know that technicians have processes to respect and they didn't made them.   

Haha, depending on how bad it is, you'd be surprised how little they'd want to touch it, leaving it mostly intact. Be sure to update on what you do to fix it.
 

Offline SparkyFX

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 666
  • Country: de
Re: Airbag controller in 2000's car
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2019, 11:45:20 pm »
What does the warning lamp do?

I guess the internal fault F31 is what leads to the decision to replace the controller.
But you could try to diagnose whats up with the power supply voltage first.
Support your local planet.
 

Offline maginnovision

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1958
  • Country: us
Re: Airbag controller in 2000's car
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2019, 12:32:33 am »
The warning lamp just lights on faults. Also on startup before extinguishing if there are no SRS faults.

Really some important data is STILL missing. We don't have fault frequencies, we don't know which were active, and we don't know battery voltage either which probably would've been recorded.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 12:46:49 am by maginnovision »
 

Offline SparkyFX

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 666
  • Country: de
Re: Airbag controller in 2000's car
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2019, 09:11:07 am »
The warning lamp just lights on faults. Also on startup before extinguishing if there are no SRS faults.
I meant: in his car.
Support your local planet.
 

Offline old gregg

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 116
  • Country: fr
Re: Airbag controller in 2000's car
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2019, 01:45:01 pm »
end of the story, I bought the same controller, 50 eurors on Ebay. It's a old brand new module,  I plugged it when everything is fine now ! I was a bit of a pain to make the swap but now it's working fine.
 
The following users thanked this post: maginnovision


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf