Author Topic: Needs some pieces of advice on how to diagnose an electric fence  (Read 2700 times)

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Offline Armadillo

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Re: Needs some pieces of advice on how to diagnose an electric fence
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2019, 02:54:35 am »
Can't find the video?

Just so you know, I got video footage with me playing with the new tranformer before I fried the board.

I used to do spark about 8mm long (about a third of inch). And no it won't kill you because the pulse is too short to be an issue (like the french website would say, about 120µs).

http://www.clotures-electriques.pyrat.net/Picfor-RB-80-Secteur-230-Volts-184.html
 

Offline gg64

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Re: Needs some pieces of advice on how to diagnose an electric fence
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2019, 10:56:13 am »
I went to sleep. :) So I found the files mp4 but those are corrupted :(, could not get it fixed with vlc for some reason... :(

Anyway, for the inductance of the tranformer, the new transformer is a custom one, the black wire goes around just once, the other one should be about 10 times as much. You can see it WIN_20180903_00_05_26_Pro.jpg.

Anyway I still got the former one, it is written (he is busted he was 20kohm when I took apart and it goes infinite from time to time):

RB80
RG 03/30

on it but I am not sure of the meaning of it (3 at primary and 30 secondary ?). I am pretty sure the RB80 refer to the model number though.

So to guess what kind of inductance I should get with my current setup according to this:
https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/tools/coil-inductance-calculator/

So I need modify the area made by my coils to get a lot more of inductance.

I have idea, I goes some shapable plastic around I could make something with my hot air station. :)

To isolate core from the wires and make something which can hold on his own. :)
 

Offline Armadillo

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Re: Needs some pieces of advice on how to diagnose an electric fence
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2019, 11:33:49 am »
Take the former busted HV transformer, note every details example the size of the air-gap etc... open it up and unwind the coil, counting the numbers of turns, right hand turn or left hand turns must be noted, note the separators sheet all such details very important to follow every details.

Throw the old winding  away and rewind it back exactly the same and you have a new HV coil. The pain will be the secondary turns because I imagine thin wires and many turns.
I have a coil winders, bobbins and jig holders for such repair.  ;D You should also build one.

The one holding on your hand is a ferrite core, I don't think is the original, the way you wound it, you must need alot of spares traics ready...  :D

If you play the sparks for too long time, the wire gets very hot and melt and will short circuit.

This one from ebay definitely is better. It can spark 15mm wide gap. And its cheap.

https://www.ebay.com.sg/itm/Ultra-high-1000-kV-Pulsed-High-Voltage-Inverter-Arc-Generator-Ignition-Coil-NEW/292667655617?hash=item44245a05c1:m:mFlHQRgYmcyvcfb5gCHDBow:rk:27:pf:0

 

Offline gg64

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Re: Needs some pieces of advice on how to diagnose an electric fence
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2019, 09:42:26 pm »
I am starting to unwind the previous coil, this:

https://www.ebay.com.sg/itm/Ultra-high-1000-kV-Pulsed-High-Voltage-Inverter-Arc-Generator-Ignition-Coil-NEW/292667655617?hash=item44245a05c1:m:mFlHQRgYmcyvcfb5gCHDBow:rk:27:pf:0

is a 3v input.... and 1Mv output ? And if they meant 1kv, I don't think that would do it either.

I don't plan to do a tesla coil anytime soon (1Mv)....

I will see how the unwinding goes and decide from there.
 

Offline Armadillo

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Re: Needs some pieces of advice on how to diagnose an electric fence
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2019, 10:35:14 pm »
To be honest, I am a bit confused if you will be using it for cattle range fencing or something else?

Anyway;

Waiting to celebrate your final finished product put to good use...  ;D
 

Offline gg64

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Re: Needs some pieces of advice on how to diagnose an electric fence
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2019, 12:13:53 am »
It is for cattle. I am not north korea or something.

Anyway resin/epoxy is holding the tranformer way to hard for me to not destroy it in the process. I am making a plastic holder for the winding but I am not 100% confident about it we will see how it goes. :D
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 05:23:32 pm by gg64 »
 

Offline fzabkar

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Re: Needs some pieces of advice on how to diagnose an electric fence
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2019, 03:07:49 am »
I have a partially assembled electric fence controller kit (Silicon Chip magazine, April 1999). The transformer was hand wound using these components:

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1469874.pdf
https://au.element14.com/search?st=etd29

http://archive.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_102476/article.html

Quote
Alternatively the ETD29 core assembly could be used but it will not fit readily into the PC board holes. It is a little larger but the cores are similar and so you can expect similar results. These cores, former and clips are available from Farnell Electronic Components Pty Ltd. ... Their catalog numbers are 178-505 for the cores (2 required per transformer assembly), 178-506 for the bobbin (1 per transformer assembly) and 178-507 for the clips (two required per transformer assembly).

Quote
Secondary -- 250 turns 0.25mm dia enamelled copper wire (ENCU) wound in 10 layers with insulation tape between each layer and a 2mm gap between each end of the windings and the former cheeks.

Primary -- 7 turns 0.4mm ENCU wound over secondary

The dump capacitor's rating was 6.8uF or 7uF 250VAC. It was charged to 340VDC. The time between pulses was 1.5s.

The kit was designed to be used with fence runs up to 5km. The relevant Australian standard was AS/NZS 3129.

Suitable Triacs were BT10-600, BT12-600, or BT138X600G.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 03:16:36 am by fzabkar »
 

Offline Armadillo

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Re: Needs some pieces of advice on how to diagnose an electric fence
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2019, 03:37:51 am »
This post is getting more interesting;

Allow me to show you my HV CORES in the photo;

The left side is how the core is assembled and potted from bottom.

On the right you can see the serrated bobbin. Its easy to imagine the windings as a constant increase of voltage along the wires, hence as the length increases, the voltage gets larger hence it must be separated by the serrated separator bobbin to avoid crossover flashing. As you can see the arrowed bobbin. Winding is an Art especiall when you deal with 0.02mm wire size!... you know what I am saying when you have handled it, really!

And then the potting, another piece of Art.  ;D

Glad you guys are interested in it.   ;D
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 03:45:17 am by Armadillo »
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Needs some pieces of advice on how to diagnose an electric fence
« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2019, 05:02:00 am »
Old medium size NZ made Gallagher unit at my bench, ~5 J output.

40uF main pulse grade caps switched via BTW69-1000 into 0.1 ohm primary with dual MOV's for back EMF protection and ~50t air cored inductor in series with the transformer primary. 10 ohm secondary.

Output is never direct to a fence, there is some pulse management circuitry (passives) on the secondary side.

From the test sheet:
4/8/89
Output test load 500 ohm
5.33 KV 5.18 J
Interval 1.27s Width 4.76 ms
No load peak 6.33 KV

Pics available if required.

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Offline Armadillo

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Re: Needs some pieces of advice on how to diagnose an electric fence
« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2019, 05:13:12 am »
@ tautech; Thanks for sharing, :D

It would be great to see the inner workings of how Gallagher implement their circuit and those transformers.

Some pics would be appreciated. thanks.

Old medium size NZ made Gallagher unit at my bench, ~5 J output.

40uF main pulse grade caps switched via BTW69-1000 into 0.1 ohm primary with dual MOV's for back EMF protection and ~50t air cored inductor in series with the transformer primary. 10 ohm secondary.

Output is never direct to a fence, there is some pulse management circuitry (passives) on the secondary side.

From the test sheet:
4/8/89
Output test load 500 ohm
5.33 KV 5.18 J
Interval 1.27s Width 4.76 ms
No load peak 6.33 KV

Pics available if required.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Needs some pieces of advice on how to diagnose an electric fence
« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2019, 09:26:06 am »
Pics attached in no particular order.
Main and output PCB's should be able to be aligned with the connectors as a origin.
Main switch to dump the caps into the primary is on the end of the PCB by 2 big MOV's.
Most connectors are spade terminals of some sort or another to allow for easy module replacement.
Anything else you can't work out, just ask.
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Offline Armadillo

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Re: Needs some pieces of advice on how to diagnose an electric fence
« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2019, 09:44:12 am »
Wow, solid. It makes "Picfor RB 80" pale in comparison.   ;D
Yeap!, this is the real stuff.
Aside from HV generation, there are more circuit boards there? Seems like doing some protection or something functions?
Interesting.. thanks.
 

Offline Armadillo

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Re: Needs some pieces of advice on how to diagnose an electric fence
« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2019, 09:53:58 am »
I think we should Sim this circuit, what say you gg64?

Can't believe I am reading cattle now..... hahahahahaha..

The schematic don't quite appear to be the same, though. :)
 

Offline gg64

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Re: Needs some pieces of advice on how to diagnose an electric fence
« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2019, 06:12:09 pm »
Hey, thanks for sharing

Well I fried some TRIAC again. This is pissing me off really bad, I spend so much hours trying to figure out what is wrong with mine.

(basicaly I put 2 1000ohm resistor in parallel (making it 500ohm measured) (in serie onto the 1 of the triac) and it still managed to kill (tick sound) the bt139-600e w/ a single turn on the primary and 10 turn on the secondary, I don't get it, it worked really nice at first -> before not connecting the load properly just once).

Anyway you gave me some ideas I might have a ignition coil lying around (might make/take a power supply and make a command for it).

On this: gallagher_villanypasztor_electrical_fence_sch.pdf

What is the name of the NE1 component ? (It is for watching if the fence working (properly))

Three others option:
- as Armadillo suggested, I might have been chasing my own tail the entire time, maybe I got counterfeit triac (I mixed some from ebay and some aliexpress). Ikr, I ain't proud.
Thus I need to buy from a thrustworthy seller BT139-800.

-or buy a big beafy: BTW69-1000 (that would finally explain why the silk footprint on the board was so big in the first place)

-or provide it to someone to service it (I spend way to much time on it to give just now, even if I am pissed. :) Money wise it is still ok)

3 Joules is already enough for our use (we got 3 25µF in working condition), 5 Joules that would do some serious muscle contraction. :D

I am going to finish that problem one day.  :box: :box: :box:
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 06:29:10 pm by gg64 »
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Needs some pieces of advice on how to diagnose an electric fence
« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2019, 07:28:27 pm »

3 Joules is already enough for our use (we got 3 25µF in working condition), 5 Joules that would do some serious muscle contraction. :D

These single digit Joule fence units are just toys by comparison to what we use today, my current unit is 40 J !
You really don't want to tangle with it.



I strongly suspect your problems are related to transformer and switching and a scope will be required to sort it out.
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Offline Armadillo

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Re: Needs some pieces of advice on how to diagnose an electric fence
« Reply #40 on: January 24, 2019, 07:50:56 pm »
@gg64

You need to use the LCR meter to check your primary inductance, its needs to be > 200uH . Below 200uH, your Triac will be fried. In fact, we should category that anywhere 300uH and below should be avoided.
Please read Reply #24. The nominal design Primary inductance should be 500uH to eliminate *ANY series Resistor.
 
1 turn, is far far from 200uH. The air-gap of the Ferrite Core plays a vital role in the inductance number of turns, you have got to tape the 2 half if they are of split half.

The NE1 is a neon light bulb.

 

Offline tautech

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Re: Needs some pieces of advice on how to diagnose an electric fence
« Reply #41 on: January 24, 2019, 08:17:53 pm »
Aside from HV generation, there are more circuit boards there? Seems like doing some protection or something functions?
2. One, vertical attached to the MB is for an LCD display and the other seems to get a magnetic coupling pickup from the transformer and give some input to the display board but traces go into comparators so maybe load sensing.  :-//
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Offline Armadillo

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Re: Needs some pieces of advice on how to diagnose an electric fence
« Reply #42 on: January 24, 2019, 09:18:24 pm »
That brings up pertinent questions and thoughts;

Those 3 joules or 40 joules, despite what the French says non fatal at 120us, the question is what does the joules have any impact on human being?. I mean, there is no published science on this. The fatality chart start off at 10ms. So this is quite a grey area now AFAIK. The next question for the French is "WHAT IF" instead of a short pulse, the rise time exceeded due to some circuit problem, resulting in 10ms HV within AC 4 category?

So, that brings us to the inductive pickup coil;
IMO;

1. Protection in ensuring short pulse.
2. Detection of malfunction in the field e.g. shorted by iron bar in the field.
3. Detection and joules limitation when the cattle gets shorted [no idea of joules control here]

So between the old circuit and the new design with safety feature, I'll go for the safety one.     ;D


Aside from HV generation, there are more circuit boards there? Seems like doing some protection or something functions?
2. One, vertical attached to the MB is for an LCD display and the other seems to get a magnetic coupling pickup from the transformer and give some input to the display board but traces go into comparators so maybe load sensing.  :-//
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Needs some pieces of advice on how to diagnose an electric fence
« Reply #43 on: January 24, 2019, 09:54:35 pm »
Electric fence technology is quite advanced these days where there is distinction between battery and mains powered units maximum specifications.
IIRC it goes something like 10KV for battery and ~6KV for mains with pulse discharge times less that 5ms.
Mains units are normally restricted to ~1Hz while battery units sometimes have a fast mode where the pulse rate is doubled to ~2Hz for training stock to.....keep away !

Modern mains units sense the load and while they might be rated at 40J+, not all that energy is available into a single pulse in normal operation. When grass growth touches the fence wire the load increases and extra energy is released to kill the growth pulling down fence voltage.

Also if we consider the normal basic electric fence design, rectified mains charges the pulse caps for them to be discharged into the transformer primary @ ~1Hz rate.
The charge rate of the pulse caps is normally managed via a series resistor and pulse repetition rate traditionally by a simple RC network.
In their simplest form there's not much that can go wrong and they always seem to fail safe.

For the many I have seen, used, installed and a few repaired never have I seen one speed up to any noticeable degree or fail to anything but a safe mode.....normally dead......no output.
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Offline Armadillo

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Re: Needs some pieces of advice on how to diagnose an electric fence
« Reply #44 on: January 24, 2019, 10:27:02 pm »
Oh yeah, the field environmental leakage conditions like the moist grass etc.... there I miss.
Sounds logically correct. thanks.
 

Offline gg64

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Re: Needs some pieces of advice on how to diagnose an electric fence
« Reply #45 on: January 25, 2019, 06:58:25 pm »
Does DUT stand for Device Under Test ?

I don't have an LCR meter.

Basically I just took apart the previous tranformer, I found some burnt stuff across 4 layers including the primary coil (as I expected), they are 9 layers (8 secondary and 1 primary).

I really got astonished to see the coiling inside to be honest. This did not looked that crowded from the outside look.

Amardillo was right for the inductance. I am going to provide the stats from it when I am done counting. :) I recorded it the tear down on video (6GB) and on another camera. :)

Anyway, my next logical stop would be to get supplies to make a new one, any advice where to get it ?

In case you wonder the previous one I used (and it worked somehow) was this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1set-PC40-E65-EE65-6-6pins-Ferrite-Cores-bobbin-transformer-ferrite-core/153032005558?hash=item23a16b17b6:g:8T0AAOSwo9VbA9~g:rk:1:pf:0

But I plan to use the previous one, the one I just tear down.

Anyway specific place to get coils and insulation tape for the transformer ?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 07:07:27 pm by gg64 »
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Needs some pieces of advice on how to diagnose an electric fence
« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2019, 07:10:51 pm »
While this site isn't the bible on transformer construction it give excellent advice on the basics:
https://ludens.cl/Electron/trafos/trafos.html
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Offline Armadillo

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Re: Needs some pieces of advice on how to diagnose an electric fence
« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2019, 07:46:22 pm »
@gg64

The PC40 Ferrite core of the size E65, the flux density saturates at 17A ~ 20A only.
It simply means, the size E65 cannot be used [too small] for your purpose for 3 joules.

With that said, I wonder what the Marketing Gimmick is? Is the 3 joules on the Charging/Discharging capacitor Or the output is "3 joules" or "40 joules"? Have anyone verified or tested it before?

Have you seen the rat's electrocution coil before? Is just a long Ferrite rod, easy to mount on the lathe and do the windings there. The size of the Ferrite Rod determines the Power Transfer.
Hand winding the primary is OK [40 ~ 50 turns]. Hand winding the secondary is going to be a bit difficult [around ~ 1200 turns] [for 3C94 Core].

In those previous discussion before, I was having the vision that the transformer you used is the French Guy Pyrat-RB-80 type.

Can you photo the Core used for the dismantled coil? it will be interesting to learn how they did it. thanks. Would China sell the replacement coil cheaply? Any photos?
 

Offline Armadillo

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Re: Needs some pieces of advice on how to diagnose an electric fence
« Reply #48 on: January 25, 2019, 10:39:05 pm »
DUT is device under test, Yes, correct.

Can you post the video to Youtube. But 6g is a bit too big I think. Maybe you need do some editing.
I have no experience posting in youtube and I think they must have some forms of limit in sizes.
I will put a thumb's Up for you whether it comes with audio or not. If you introduce in French, I'll give you 2 thumb's up.

Please post up, don't just learn yourself.  ;D

thanks.
 

Offline gg64

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Re: Needs some pieces of advice on how to diagnose an electric fence
« Reply #49 on: January 26, 2019, 02:38:48 pm »
Here is the core measurement video:

https://youtu.be/vdtzyWQPcYI

At the end I meant thirteen not thirty.

I tried to get the tear down video ASAP, I need to clean the audio background.
 


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