Author Topic: Next repair, HP3456A (o;  (Read 16889 times)

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Offline davorinTopic starter

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Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« on: June 11, 2014, 04:14:18 pm »
Received a HP3456A multimeter today which I bought as "dead"...a quick look revealed that the fuse cap is missing...
Opened up the top cover...released some screws on top and back...but can't quickly figure out how to get to the fuse holder itself to be replaced....

 

Offline FrankenPC

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2014, 04:31:38 pm »
Received a HP3456A multimeter today which I bought as "dead"...a quick look revealed that the fuse cap is missing...
Opened up the top cover...released some screws on top and back...but can't quickly figure out how to get to the fuse holder itself to be replaced....

On one of my repaired 3456's it arrived with a blown fast-blow fuse in the in-guard analog section.  Easy to replace with a solid state fast blow fuse. 
Chinglish poetry: In the hot summer. In the car ran full steam. It tastes strange. For this worry? With this fan will bring you a cool summer. Suitable for all kinds of cars. Agricultural vehicles. Van. Tricycle.
 

Offline davorinTopic starter

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2014, 04:38:04 pm »
My main problem is currently that I can't seem to find a way to remove the top/bottom covers in the back where the AC inlet and fuse holder is...

Do I have to remove to whole back panel?

 

Offline FrankenPC

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2014, 05:03:05 pm »
My main problem is currently that I can't seem to find a way to remove the top/bottom covers in the back where the AC inlet and fuse holder is...

Do I have to remove to whole back panel?

You have to remove the large top and bottom panels.  There is a single #2 phillips screw in the center of each main panel that is fixed in place.  As you twist that screw, the entire panel moves backwards.  After you get them off, unscrew the small aluminum guard plate and the fuse assembly is fully exposed.
Chinglish poetry: In the hot summer. In the car ran full steam. It tastes strange. For this worry? With this fan will bring you a cool summer. Suitable for all kinds of cars. Agricultural vehicles. Van. Tricycle.
 

Offline davorinTopic starter

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2014, 05:12:29 pm »
Hmm..not sure which aluminum guard you're referring too...

I have here a metal sheet going from top to bottom with the fan attached to its back...

 

Offline FrankenPC

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2014, 05:39:47 pm »
You have a variation of the 3456 I don't have.  I don't even have a fan. :(
Chinglish poetry: In the hot summer. In the car ran full steam. It tastes strange. For this worry? With this fan will bring you a cool summer. Suitable for all kinds of cars. Agricultural vehicles. Van. Tricycle.
 

Offline davorinTopic starter

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2014, 05:43:48 pm »
Sad thing is that assembly/disassembly is nowhere mentioned in the service manual...

Guess I need to go for the total disassembly then...but not this evening anymore ;-)


 

Offline MadTux

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2014, 07:12:02 pm »
There's a big screw on each corner of the frame. Remove those and you can pull the whole rear section out. Then it's easy to find the screws you need to remove
 

Offline davorinTopic starter

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2014, 10:40:32 am »
Had to remove more than just those 4 screws...the side panels and handle needed to go as well...

Now got the fuse holder removed for replacement...

BTW: What type of use is used in the 3456A? Fast, slow?

 

Offline davorinTopic starter

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2014, 11:22:41 am »
Replaced now and powered on...

Just display "------", regardless what measurement....
Pressing test shows "-3.00000" though...

 

Offline MarkL

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2014, 02:26:04 pm »
The "------" and "-3.00000" matches the description in the service guide in section 8-A-34, "Outguard Isolation Logic", on page 8-A-17 (rev B of the manual).  There are step-by-step troubleshooting instructions there, but you will need a scope and signature analyzer for many of the tests.

And for the fuse, the manual says it's HP part 2110-0033 for 120V operation (0.75A), and 2110-0065 for 240V operation (0.375A).  Those are unfortunately obsolete with no cross-reference.

For whatever it's worth, there's a Littlefuse 312 series 0.5A fast-blow fuse in my 3456A operating at 120V, but I've never replaced it.  It looks old and original, but there's no telling for sure if someone else replaced it long ago.
 

Offline FrankenPC

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2014, 02:37:24 pm »
Replaced now and powered on...

Just display "------", regardless what measurement....
Pressing test shows "-3.00000" though...

That error is common.  It could be either in-guard OR out-guard logic boards.  Most of the troubleshooting can be done with a multimeter to find out exactly where the error is coming from.  I purchased a $50 HP3456 as a donor unit to swap out the boards. 
Chinglish poetry: In the hot summer. In the car ran full steam. It tastes strange. For this worry? With this fan will bring you a cool summer. Suitable for all kinds of cars. Agricultural vehicles. Van. Tricycle.
 

Offline davorinTopic starter

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2014, 04:32:41 pm »
Now pressing "Test" doesn't show -3.00000...but instead nervous display flickering...mostly blinking 0.00000 0...and some relays can be heard clicking...

Looking at the inout/output of board A3 it looks like input signal gets distorted on the way...
 

Offline davorinTopic starter

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2014, 06:09:55 pm »
Hmm.....almost 3v ripple on A30 inguard 5V rail....

What puzzles me though is the fact, that with in/out shorted on A3 outguard board, selecting test nbr. (TEST, 3, STORE, 5) 3 isn't possible...but resets the device...

 

Offline FrankenPC

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2014, 06:15:51 pm »
Hmm.....almost 3v ripple on A30 inguard 5V rail....

What puzzles me though is the fact, that with in/out shorted on A3 outguard board, selecting test nbr. (TEST, 3, STORE, 5) 3 isn't possible...but resets the device...

FYI:  Another problem I had was the front panel malfunctioning.  There's not much going on with the front display/button assembly.  So, I surmised the ribbon cable was corroded or had a mechanical connector failure.  Regardless... my donor unit to the rescue!
Chinglish poetry: In the hot summer. In the car ran full steam. It tastes strange. For this worry? With this fan will bring you a cool summer. Suitable for all kinds of cars. Agricultural vehicles. Van. Tricycle.
 

Offline guido

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2014, 11:29:34 pm »
The ripple is bad obviously, the powersupplies need to be good before further trouble shooting.

What could als be a problem are the roms. They fail a lot, meaning part of the contents get doggy. I had a 3456a that reset ok, but froze when selecting a specific function. The part of the rom with the routines for that function failed.

So it might well be that the rom rot affected the routines for the test function in your unit. I succesfully replaced the roms.
But first fix the supply (first thing i did was replace the caps).
 

Offline davorinTopic starter

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2014, 08:03:56 am »
C5 had around 1.4uF...5V rail is stable now...

Displays now 00.00 after power up....though applying 1.5V results in "OL"...
Most of the key presses are ignored and sometimes it won't return form test mode....

Glad I have some old EPROMs lying around and recently bought a programmer...though just one 27C64 left...seems I have to retrofit my 3456A to the 27C256 version...
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 08:19:00 am by davorin »
 

Offline Wh1sper

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2014, 09:42:48 am »

Glad I have some old EPROMs lying around and recently bought a programmer...though just one 27C64 left...
I do have some spare eproms lay around, I wouldn't care about to give you a few.
 

Offline davorinTopic starter

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2014, 09:00:37 pm »
I go for my 27C256 version as the 27C64s are not pin compatible anyway...

Stupid me I threw away all my UV erasers (o;



 

Offline davorinTopic starter

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2014, 04:48:13 pm »
Replaced now the 3 * 2564 ROMs with a 27C256....still same behavior as before..nothing changed...

After power-up following is displayed for a few seconds:

Code: [Select]
--.---- -3
And then:

Code: [Select]
- 00.00
Several minutes after the display changes then and displays all sorts of numbers...

« Last Edit: June 19, 2014, 05:00:36 pm by davorin »
 

Offline MadTux

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2014, 02:19:48 am »
You have at least one fault on the left digital side of your DVM. The 3456A, in contrast to the 3457A, that only displays an undefined "failed" message, boots fine ("3456A"; "AddXXX 0"; "------  ") if the analog boards are disconeced (4 pin connector on the bottom CPU board) or inexistent. It just has a blank "------" display and gives an -3.0000 error during self test.

So if you already have replaced the ROMs and if there isn't any excessive ripple on the +5V rail (big blue cap, IIRC), the next probable cause in my opinion are the RAM chips, especially if those gold capped MOSTEK 4118 are used. Apparently they were made before the problem of gold/aluminium intermetallic was known. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold-aluminium_intermetallic One of those chips also failed in a 3456A that I got. Out of curiosity I removed the lid with a heat gun and analysed the chip under the microscope, where I discovered the gold wire bonding onto aluminium pads. Now after 35 years, solid state diffusion had enough time to happen and AuAl intermetallic formed between the bonding wire and the pad and vibrations, e.g. during shipping caused some cracks that killed the chip.

I still have it, so in case I will get a good microscope with microposition probes once, I might measure the resistance between the pads and the chip leads and see whether I was right.

P.S. I live near you, so in case you get pissed off too hard with it, I can give you (in exchange for the bad boards and a really big box of beer or 50Fr) a known good digital section of the 3456A.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 02:35:08 am by MadTux »
 

Offline davorinTopic starter

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2014, 08:13:40 am »
Hmm...found some old 6116 RAM chips here....though twice the capacity they are pin compatible except pin A10, which is the latch enable signal on the 4118, though tied to Vcc. So it doesn't use the synchronous method.

In worst case I have a 2nd 3456A which is working to swap out cards...though installed in my bookshelf and hard to remove as 2 * 6632B are on top of it (o;

#define near_you ? (o;

 

Offline MadTux

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2014, 09:57:19 am »
#define near_you ? (o;

Eastern Switzerland :)
 

Offline davorinTopic starter

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2014, 10:00:57 am »
Ah my old "Heimat" (o;

Lived a loong time at Lake of Constanze...

 

Offline davorinTopic starter

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Re: Next repair, HP3456A (o;
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2014, 01:37:03 pm »
Hmm..directly replacing the MK4118 with 6116 doesn't work....no display at all now ;-)

 


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