Author Topic: old cnc machine memory board  (Read 662 times)

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Offline eddaimes

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old cnc machine memory board
« on: June 24, 2020, 06:58:19 am »
Hi this is a long shot but worth asking  ... hope I am posting in the correct area.

I have a cnc lathe 1996 Cincinnati 200MS with 850sx controller, these controllers rely on flash memory with on board battery and super capacitor to store machine parameters and options ... the issue is the manufacturer is no longer around, there is a company in the US capable of re flashing the board for over $3000 AU ... it would seem that the issue could repeat and leave me back at square one.

I am looking for a a way to read and write to these boards myself ... the manual lists a process of re flashing with a one shot card supplied from the manufacturer as the board has a port for read write ... I would like to find an expert/electronics enthusiast who I would gladly pay if they could create a method where by I can read and write to this on board flash memory ... I have a few boards which have lost there memory but are still fully functional in all other respects for testing.

The flash chips are N28F010 (edit the correct chips are HM628128LFP-8) the board is a 3 542 1174A from an acramatic 850sx control.

I know of no available schematic
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 12:13:13 am by eddaimes »
 

Online Ian.M

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Re: old cnc machine memory board
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2020, 07:20:18 am »
The Intel N28F010 flash memory is non-volatile. That means it does *NOT* need power to retain its contents so doesn't need backup battery.   If the N28F010 chips are socketed they could be removed, read and replacements reprogrammed as required using any generic memory device programmer that supports that chip.

However, the presence of a battery indicates something else stores data on the board in volatile memory, possibly a CMOS SRAM or RTC chip, and if its used for frequently changed data (to avoid wearing out the FLASH memory), it may need to be properly initialised for correct operation.  That's a lot harder to do without a specific programming jig for the board.

I suggest posting a good hi-res photo of the board, (which needs to be good enough to clearly read chip numbers etc.) so anyone willing to help can see what they are going to be up against.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2020, 07:22:31 am by Ian.M »
 

Offline duak

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Re: old cnc machine memory board
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2020, 09:08:38 pm »
I did a search on the 850sx control and see that it's probably based on a Siemens control - this may open up other options for repair.

If this control is like most others, I suspect the flash stores the code for the microprocessors in the NC & PC as well as the ladder for the NC.  The non-volatile (NV) RAM stores parameters and machine state (keep relays).  The control's OEM provided the basic code for the control and the machine builder provided the ladder and parameters.  If the OEM stuff is running, the latter stuff can often be entered albeit tediously.

Does anything come up on the monitor when the control is fired up?

Cheers,

« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 09:12:48 pm by duak »
 

Offline eddaimes

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Re: old cnc machine memory board
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2020, 11:55:48 pm »
Hi sorry for the late reply, have been away, yes the control screen gets to an initializing stage, there are a series of LED's on whats called the DAMP board and some switches, the LED's are for diagnostics, only one of the memory boards of the six I have in question passes all tests and passes initialization then the machine starts albeit it's another machine of a different configuration, but it still allows me to test all the memory boards I have for faults. One of the switches on the DAMP I believe is the read write switch for backing up and updating the machine, but in the book it doesn't list the ability to back up the SRAM memory, probably so people with many machines had to buy an update card for each machine, but possibly write to backup could be enabled with a hack

I will upload a hi definition image of the board asap.

I think I have identified the correct memory chips in question now the chips are SRAM HM628128LFP-8 there are 9 on the board ... one row of 8 ... and one alone in a separate row ... I think they are two separate purposes.

I assume these are the problem as these chips require a battery.

I did a continuity test to find what pins of the 8 chips are in parallel on the board and only the two pins with the RED ARROWS (NC and CS1) in the attached diagram have no continuity between the 8 memory chips in the 8 array.

There is a 60 pin two rows of 30 header on the board which is used to read/write to the various memory allocations on the board this header is also used for backing up user programs and for memory expansion, I have managed to obtain one of the three different update cards off Ebay the manufacturer would have sent out to the customers to update various things options and base software etc the manual goes into how to flash the memory board with these cards but they are one shot apparently, and no longer supplied as the manufacturer is gone but it may give some clues when it arrives.

There is also an Eprom on the board and I have tried all six of them I have, from non functioning boards in the working board and they all work fine so I am guessing they can be ruled out.

The LED diagnostics indicate the problem is "initialize software" after comparing to the trouble shooting section in the manual ... I think initialize software is something you require a flash card for which I cant get.

Anyway that's just some random observations, the first goal is still to be able to read/write/backup the HM628128LFP-8 SRAM on the memory board and I am guessing the header has the input/output/read/write pins required.

Secondly I would like to build a portable device to send to a person I know with the same machine in the US to read/backup his SRAM and send it back to me and to then write to mine.

When I get the Flash card I bought on eBay I will remove the cover and post a photo.

Thanks to everyone in advance

« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 02:20:32 am by eddaimes »
 

Offline eddaimes

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Re: old cnc machine memory board
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2020, 12:11:58 am »
Yes you are correct

I had the wrong chips, the correct ones are HM628128LFP-8 and there is a header on the board to write to the flash memory, and I have one of the flash cards I bought off eBay albeit not configured with the correct parameters for my machine and also called a one shot card
Thank you for taking the time to look into my situation
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 01:40:17 am by eddaimes »
 

Offline eddaimes

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Re: old cnc machine memory board
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2020, 01:10:36 am »
3-542-1174A Acramatic 850sx MMC memory board
 

Offline amyk

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Re: old cnc machine memory board
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2020, 03:26:23 am »
You'll need to trace out the schematic to find what goes where.
 

Offline duak

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Re: old cnc machine memory board
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2020, 05:34:20 am »
I did some more research (frobnicating on the 'net) and found out that the control is not a Siemens control but Siemens apparently supports them.  Acramatic is the name Cincinatti Milacron gave their controls.  Apparently, the Acramatic controls were developed and manufactured by CM.  And that's what I know about Acramatic.  Siemens has apparently partnered with Yaskawa to replace Yaskawa controls with Siemens' controls - maybe that's the support here 

My experience is with Mitsubishi, Fanuc and Yaskawa CNC and more so as a hobby as I'm retired from engineering.  With these controls, the parameters can also be loaded in from serial port.  Some allow the Ladder also to be updated from the serial port.  The newer controls, from the mid 90's also allow loading from credit card sized memory cards - I can't remember their name.  The older Yaskawa controls had to run a "generate" step that took ladder data from the EPROM and loaded its NVRAM.  One Mitsubishi control I repaired developed a bad RAM chip and the owner copied the corrupted parameters into the backup flash before heading off on vacation.  It took me a week to undo the tangle and get it all working again.

There's no guarantee that Acramatic controls are structured the way the above controls are, but given the way technology works, the underlying requirements and solutions can be similar.  ie., they skinned the cat pretty much the same way.

Do you have any manuals, documentation or parameter lists?  Unlike the above controls, there is very little information on the interwebs.

Cheers,
 

Offline eddaimes

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Re: old cnc machine memory board
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2020, 06:58:48 pm »
ok will do and post back
 

Offline eddaimes

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Re: old cnc machine memory board
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2020, 09:06:37 pm »
so far this is all the pin destinations from the first HM628128LFP-8 chip in 8 array ... the other seven are in parallel except for one pin
 

Offline eddaimes

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Re: old cnc machine memory board
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2020, 04:13:45 pm »
is there a particular best practice to do this tracing I think I am going to need layers, can you point me to a vid or way you would do it?


I was wondering, considering I am trying to transfer the contents of each of this 8 chip array to the contents of the exact same 8 chip array on another exact same board can I just do it one by one if I make a custom cradle that can mount on top of a chip with a custom 32 pin header and read write to each chip as if it as if it was an individual stand alone chip, the write enable pin could be cut so it has no contact with the board anymore if needed so only one chip is written to, the chips only need to be written to once which should last years? ... should I be asking this question separately if you are not sure .... kind of like a flash chip in a programmer would be done.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 05:04:35 pm by eddaimes »
 


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