Panasonic caps from ebay, legit or fake ?

[Sylvain]

Hi all,

I ordered some Nichicon caps from a local (french) ebay seller in order to repair a motherboard.
The problem is I received what looks like Panasonic FJ caps. The brand could be a minor problem but those caps look a bit 'suspicious' to me.

The top and (ruber) buttom seems to match what Panasonic is used to but print quality, colors and used fonts seem different from the other Panasonic caps I own (FM and FC series). There is also this stange red "45IIITR" on the back, see the 2 photos attached.

Before contacting the seller (and ebay) I would like to have your opinion.

Thank you for your help,

Sylvain.


 

[motocoder]

I have some Panasonic caps that I got off of eBay. I don't recall the print looking so crappy on those. I will take a look when I get home this evening and post a pic for you to compare.

[gnif]

I have never seen such poor looking panasonic caps, I would be suspicious of these also.

[amc184]

To me they look genuine (that red text is a batch number, looks like most other Panasonics I've seen), but they look like NOS that's been poorly stored, rattling round in a bag scuffing each other for a very long time.

[marshallh]

To me they look genuine (that red text is a batch number, looks like most other Panasonics I've seen), but they look like NOS that's been poorly stored, rattling round in a bag scuffing each other for a very long time.

Bingo.
Check out the other things the seller has and get a feel for where he is getting the parts, and in what volume.

[motocoder]

I've attached a picture of the ones I have. Notably, none of them say "Panasonic" on them anywhere. The silkscreen on them does look normal, however.

[Kjelt]

Buy a real one of these series or ask someone here to post a pic and compare the top mark where the can is weakened the T marking. If that matches it is probably from the same factory, could be B stock though, you never know. Measure capacitance and ESR and put it for 48 hours in test before using it for sonething critical.

[Sylvain]

Thank you for your answers ...

amc184 >> I think you are right ! So if it N.O.S. from say ... 10 years ago, is there any problem to use it ? It's clearly not for a critical aplication.

motocoder >> All the Panasonic caps I have look like yours : shiny colors, no '+' before the 105°C, no batch number ... Much of them also have this 'CE FC' markings.

Kjelt >> I don't have any ESR meter, but the capacitance seems OK on my multimeter (U1233A), around 10% higher than the specs. It's not for a critical thing and if they could live for 2 or 3 years, it should be OK ... I wanted to repair some nearly 8 years old motherboards that won't be used intensively.

Sylvain.

[wraper]

To me they look genuine (that red text is a batch number, looks like most other Panasonics I've seen), but they look like NOS that's been poorly stored, rattling round in a bag scuffing each other for a very long time.

+1, vent on the top is highly abused too. All in the marks.

[amc184]

They're marked [M] for Matsushita, Panasonic's original name.  I'd use them, but I wouldn't be that happy with them and I wouldn't use that seller again.  I hope they were cheap.

[tom66]

I've attached a picture of the ones I have. Notably, none of them say "Panasonic" on them anywhere. The silkscreen on them does look normal, however.

Definitely fake.
(M) = Matshushita... Panasonic's parent company up until about a year ago

[Refrigerator]

Someone with some decent test gear should get all sorts of cheapass caps from ebay and test them.
Would answer so many questions.

[wraper]

Someone with some decent test gear should get all sorts of cheapass caps from ebay and test them.
Would answer so many questions.

Won't answer anything in many cases. They usually test just fine when new. However fakes will fail very soon.

[Excavatoree]

I believe Panasonic was a brand used by Matsushita.  The company changed their name to Panasonic.   

[SeanB]

The company originally was Nationa, and had the brand Panasonic, but is now all owned by Matsushita. Technics is also in there somewhere, they often were the OEM for some ranges and also had some branded for them.

Those caps look like they were either left over from a production run, or were clipped from a reel of parts made especially for a product run ( mixed resistors, capacitors and such 2 lead devices, placed in pick order on a tape for use in an auto insertion machine) and then bagged together. I would bet the same supplier has the other parts available in bags as well from the same reel. Likely bought as surplus when the product was either discontinued or had a revision that changed a part on the reel, so they tossed the whole purpose made reel batch left over. They do look like genuine parts, but as they likely are old you probably would not want to design them into a product, but they will be fine as either parts to repair with or for own use.

[JohnWard]

Picture attached - Genuine Panasonic FR series capacitors.

[Kjelt]

His were FJ series could be a different color font since older series.

[justanothercanuck]

I've seen both print styles, but not that vent design.  I'd be suspicious. 

[wraper]

I've seen both print styles, but not that vent design.  I'd be suspicious. 

What wrong with it? If it was different style, that would be dead giveaway that they are fake.

[biru7]

Based on my experience, all caps shipped from China and Hk are counterfeit. On Ebay those shipped from Germany or South Korea and Japan are genuine.

[daedalux]

Test them for ESR and the form factor and size to be the same as the original. While this way they may be fake anyway at least you know they are worth for the application they are presumed for, which may not always be the case. They may be rated for more voltage or temperature resistence than they really have.

[janoc]

Thank you for your answers ...

amc184 >> I think you are right ! So if it N.O.S. from say ... 10 years ago, is there any problem to use it ? It's clearly not for a critical aplication.

A 10years old cap that is possibly well dried out inside used to filter voltage from heavily loaded DC-DC converters on a motherboad is not something I would call "non critical". Sure, nobody will die but you will likely be fixing that board again soon - if it even works in the first place. Get some genuine new caps, e.g. from RS here in France (you even get free shipping if you order during the weekend), they aren't *that* expensive.

Measuring capacitance will not tell you much about the condition of the capacitor - I have seen caps with leaked electrolyte (i.e. definitely bad!) that still held their nominal capacitance when measured. Just the ESR was through the roof.

[mcinque]

You are in France and you have many EU distributors available: why do you prefer to buy from eBay instead from serious companies like RS, Farnell, Digi-Key, Distrelec, Mouser etc. that can assure you genuine components?

Personally I try to purchase on eBay only when an item isn't available from another known and reliable source.

I don't want to offend anyone, I ask you this because you're not the first or the last to have genuine doubts about components purchased from eBay and I'd like to understand why people continue to purchase on eBay instead "official" resellers.

[coppice]

The company originally was Nationa, and had the brand Panasonic, but is now all owned by Matsushita. Technics is also in there somewhere, they often were the OEM for some ranges and also had some branded for them.

Actually the parent company was Matsushita. They variously sold products under their own name, and the brand names National, Panasonic, National-Panasonic, JVC, Technics, KDK, Rasonic (in cooperation with Shun Hing in Hong Kong) and others. The bought Sanyo some time ago, so they also used that name for a while, but seem to have retired it. Now, the parent company, Matsushita, seems to have changed the name of the entire organisation to Panasonic.

The brand names they have used for electronics components have mostly been Matsushita and Panasonic.

[janoc]

I don't want to offend anyone, I ask you this because you're not the first or the last to have genuine doubts about components purchased from eBay and I'd like to understand why people continue to purchase on eBay instead "official" resellers.

Mostly cost. If you aren't a company and are buying small amounts here and there, the shipping charges of the likes of Mouser, Farnell or Digikey charge are crazy, often 50% or more of the value of the order if all you need are a few components. And if I had to wait every time to accumulate the 60€ or so worth of goods to qualify for the free shipping, the repair would take months. Not everyone orders components every week.

With Digikey you get also the problems with credit cards (they seem to have issues with the extra validation on French CCs), customs handling (they ship from the US, letting the courier handle the paperwork - you get charged flat 20€ for the privilege), VAT and sometimes they will demand you to fill ITAR forms too, for common components ... DigiKey is an enormous pain in the butt in France, literally the last option when the component I need isn't available elsewhere.

Also the price of the components tends to better on AliExpress/eBay, at least for small stuff like resistors, LEDs, switches  and such. So if it is for a non-critical use or something where I don't care I may get a fake/clone, I shop there too. Otherwise for semiconductors or when I need really good capacitors, my first choice as a hobbyist/private person (not business) in France is RS (cheapest/free shipping), then Mouser and then Farnell. When shopping for work, we usually use RS and Mouser.

There is also a logistical problem - all the big distributors ship by couriers, such as TNT, DHL and UPS. Which is great if you are a business but a royal PAIN IN THE BACKSIDE if you are a private person and have nobody at home to pick the package up during the day. The courier will not leave the package in the mailbox (they aren't allowed to and often don't have access to them anyway) and not leave a message neither. Good luck chasing the package up afterwards, especially here in France where it is common that e.g. DHL uses a chain of sub-sub-sub-subcontractors for the actual deliveries and they often don't even know they are working for DHL ... Not everyone can have things delivered to work. On the other hand, if you order from eBay,  AliExpress or Amazon the package comes conveniently by French Post and no problem.

It is easy to dismiss people buying stuff online but when it is going out of your own pocket most people think twice and will look for cheaper/more convenient options. Hard to blame anyone there.

I think that if e.g. RS or Mouser started a special "hobby level" service with cheap (let's say 2€ max) shipping by regular mail (letters) for small orders, they would easily corner the entire hobbyist market. Hobbyists rarely care about overnight/second day delivery by TNT, I will be happy to wait a few days longer if I don't have to pay 20€ S&H for a few transistors in an envelope. There isn't really such service available and most of the distributors charge these crazy S&H fees to discourage the small orders (they used to not sell to private clients at all not so long time ago) because it is not cost efficient for their current logistics - e.g. RS will commonly split an order of 20 small components into three or more packages delivered in separate boxes on 3 consecutive days, paying 3x the shipping costs to TNT.