Author Topic: Problem with air compressor pump motor  (Read 978 times)

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Offline shockpointTopic starter

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Problem with air compressor pump motor
« on: May 14, 2024, 02:54:28 pm »
Hi all.

I have a compressor motor head exactly like the one in this video.
In this video, the construction of the windings shows that the run winding has both in and out terminals as RED. and the start winding has both in and out terminals as BLACK.
Based on my multimeter check, on my own unit, the black wires do NOT have continuity with one another and neither do the red. The only continuity is between one black-red and another black-red. So I believe on my unit the color is arranged differently.
So please note that in my below diagrams, the black and red refer to what I believe to be the arrangement of the winding terminals on my particular unit.
It is a 580W, 230V AC pump that is most likely a permanent start capacitor motor. The nominal current on this is 3.8A.
The capacitor is 25uF rated for 450V and I bought it new and verified that it works.

I have an issue with mine that I cannot figure out.
I have tried wiring my motor in two ways.
The first way I tried is to wire it in the way suggested in the video above, which is summarised in the line diagram as shown below (first picture attached). Note again that in the schematic, the black and red denote what I believe to be the in and out terminals for each winding, and not differentiating the start winding and the run winding as in the video.

Key:
L = line, N = neutral. There is a ground wire, and it is connected to AC GND.

This method resulted in:
- the circuit breaker tripping
- There was no audible hum in the motor
- motor not rotating
- motor bearings are movable with hand, no seizing noted

The second way I wired it is according to the technician at the store (my compressor is out of warranty and I want to know what is the problem with this motor so for those reasons I would prefer not to take it into the store as they are unlikely to offer more help), who told me that:
- the two red wires, contrary to the video above, were actually meant to be directly connected to the capacitor, while the two black ends are meant to be connected to L and N (with a green for GND of course).
- this also resulted in a circuit breaker trip.
- this arrangement does not make any sense on a line diagram. See the second photo, which is essentially what I think the technician is telling me. Although on the shop units I have seen this to be the case. Here is a photo of the shop unit. https://ansaleeov.xyz/product_details/38663846.html (see photo 3 for annotated picture)
As you can see, coming from the side of the compressor through a bunged hole, are two black sheathed cables. the thin one threaded under the compressor unit goes to the capacitor (this sheath contains the two red wires). The thicker sheath going to the pressure switch  contain the two black wires and a green-yellow ground wire.

My areas of confusion:
- I have measured the black and red wires on a multimeter. On black-red pair 1, I am getting 13 Ohms. On the other black-red pair 2, I am getting 1-2 ohms. Are these expected values for the main and auxiliary windings? Based on the video above the construction selects 21AWG for the main winding and 23AWG for the auxiliary winding each with different winding dimensions, so I have reason to believe that this possibly could affect the reading but I am not sure if a 12 ohm difference is reasonable. Assuming a current of 3.8A, 13ohm*(3.8A)^2 (power) results in a heat dissipation in watts of 187.7watts. This seems a bit high to me. The alternative winding, 2ohm*(3.8A)^2 = 15.2 watts seems more reasonable.
- when the motor is hand turned, the 1-2ohm resistance winding stays a CONSTANT 1-2ohms. The 13.3ohm winding fluctuates wildly, going from 0 dead short to 60 ohms. *** does this suggest that the 13.3ohm winding is faulty
- Between the black and black wires, there is no continuity. This would suggest that black-red pairs are end terminals of each of the windings in the motor (main and auxiliary).
- However, if the capacitor was meant to be connected directly to the red pair of wires, and the L/N wires straight to the black terminals, then this means that the wiring diagram would look like this (second photo). This line diagram does not make sense to me as a PSC motor and I cannot see how the capacitor could possibly generate a phase shift to kick start the motor.

I have no idea which way is the right way to wire it.
And I also have no idea what to think about the motor windings themselves - are they actually bad? I thought the windings should be relatively similar in terms of resistance.

Please help! any ideas pointing me in the right direction would be much appreciated
« Last Edit: May 14, 2024, 03:18:45 pm by shockpoint »
 

Offline andy3055

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Re: Problem with air compressor pump motor
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2024, 04:04:10 pm »
That 2nd diagram is not correct.  In your 1st diagram, insert the capacitor in series with the lower resistance winding and swap the N and L connections. If that still trips, it is possible that you have a bad winding. Do these connections without other switches or sensors etc. to eliminate any possible interactions.
 

Offline shockpointTopic starter

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Re: Problem with air compressor pump motor
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2024, 05:13:04 pm »
That 2nd diagram is not correct.  In your 1st diagram, insert the capacitor in series with the lower resistance winding and swap the N and L connections. If that still trips, it is possible that you have a bad winding. Do these connections without other switches or sensors etc. to eliminate any possible interactions.

Thank you for your response
I will give that a go tomorrow morning.
would you care to explain your reasoning behind the swapping of the L and N terminals and the capacitor in series with the lower resistance? I'd like to try and understand your thought process of debugging and diagnosis
 

Offline andy3055

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Re: Problem with air compressor pump motor
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2024, 04:27:26 am »
Usually, they he winding with the higher resistance is the main winding and it can be directly connected across the power. Compare that to the running winding of a motor with a starting winding that gets disconnected  by a centrifugal switch that gets activated when the motor speeds up. The starting winding is in series with the capacitor. In some cases, there is no centrifugal switch and the so called starting winding is always on but with the cap in series. The high value of the cap proves it.  In the case of the winding that falls out of the circuit, the cap would be a smaller value. As a practice  the cap is on the line side. I cannot think of a good reason for that because electrically, it doesn't make a difference.
 

Offline andy3055

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Re: Problem with air compressor pump motor
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2024, 04:31:48 am »
When I was an apprentice in my twenties, I had a book on electric motors. It used to be a well known series of books. Audels electric motor handbook... I think it was.
 

Offline Uup

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Re: Problem with air compressor pump motor
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2024, 05:42:49 am »
Usually, they he winding with the higher resistance is the main winding and it can be directly connected across the power. Compare that to the running winding of a motor with a starting winding that gets disconnected  by a centrifugal switch that gets activated when the motor speeds up. The starting winding is in series with the capacitor. In some cases, there is no centrifugal switch and the so called starting winding is always on but with the cap in series. The high value of the cap proves it.  In the case of the winding that falls out of the circuit, the cap would be a smaller value. As a practice  the cap is on the line side. I cannot think of a good reason for that because electrically, it doesn't make a difference.

You have that backwards. In a PSC motor, the higher resistance winding is the start winding. The run, or main, winding has the lower resistance.

The capacitor should be connected in series with the highest resistance winding.

The start winding will be easily damaged/shorted if connected directly to power without the capacitor, in that air compressor in the OP.

As for the correct wiring connections, the first diagram is correct. Identify the start winding by the highest winding resistance and connect in series with the capacitor as per the diagram.

If the motor runs in the wrong direction then swap red-black wires on one winding.

If the motor doesn't start and then trips after several seconds then check the capacitor and also the mechanical side.
If it trips straight away then the motor windings are likely shorted.



« Last Edit: May 16, 2024, 05:48:47 am by Uup »
 
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Offline andy3055

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Re: Problem with air compressor pump motor
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2024, 06:47:44 am »
May be you are correct.
 

Offline shockpointTopic starter

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Re: Problem with air compressor pump motor
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2024, 04:04:43 pm »
That 2nd diagram is not correct.  In your 1st diagram, insert the capacitor in series with the lower resistance winding and swap the N and L connections. If that still trips, it is possible that you have a bad winding. Do these connections without other switches or sensors etc. to eliminate any possible interactions.

Gave that a go and it didn't work.

Usually, they he winding with the higher resistance is the main winding and it can be directly connected across the power. Compare that to the running winding of a motor with a starting winding that gets disconnected  by a centrifugal switch that gets activated when the motor speeds up. The starting winding is in series with the capacitor. In some cases, there is no centrifugal switch and the so called starting winding is always on but with the cap in series. The high value of the cap proves it.  In the case of the winding that falls out of the circuit, the cap would be a smaller value. As a practice  the cap is on the line side. I cannot think of a good reason for that because electrically, it doesn't make a difference.

You have that backwards. In a PSC motor, the higher resistance winding is the start winding. The run, or main, winding has the lower resistance.

The capacitor should be connected in series with the highest resistance winding.

The start winding will be easily damaged/shorted if connected directly to power without the capacitor, in that air compressor in the OP.

As for the correct wiring connections, the first diagram is correct. Identify the start winding by the highest winding resistance and connect in series with the capacitor as per the diagram.

If the motor runs in the wrong direction then swap red-black wires on one winding.

If the motor doesn't start and then trips after several seconds then check the capacitor and also the mechanical side.
If it trips straight away then the motor windings are likely shorted.





thanks for your response

Some updates
I mulled over the resistance readings and did them a few times more. I may have taken the 1ohm incorrectly, I did it a few times again and realised it was 0.1ohm, which looks like a deadshort to me compared to the 13.3 ohm which was still valid

I went back to the shops and looked at how they wired their units - the red wires come out straight to the capacitor and the black wires to the pressure switch. So I redrew my circuit diagram and figured it might have been an internal wiring difference that made the line diagram in 1 look like the line diagram in 2.

Here is what I have. In the below diagram, 1 and 2 are the black wires, and 3 and 4 are the red wires.

I measured the resistances across each of the wires numbered 1, 2, 3 and 4 - the table has the recorded ohms.

The only way I can put this all together including the symptoms, in terms of a hypothesis, is that if the winding between 1 and 2 was a broken winding. That's the only way all of this can make sense, unless you see something I missed.

What do you think?

I'll take the motor apart and see if theres any burns. Hopefully theres a thermal overload protection inside that blew and caused the open circuit. otherwise i'll have to rewind this motor another time
The last owner didn't leave the capacitor intact so I suspect it must've blown and taken the auxiliary winding with it. He must've attempted to rewire it and realised the winding was an Open-Line.

TLDR - resistance reading suggests that the auxiliary winding has a break, leaving a wiring arrangement that was ambiguous

« Last Edit: May 16, 2024, 04:12:06 pm by shockpoint »
 

Offline andy3055

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Re: Problem with air compressor pump motor
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2024, 06:41:14 pm »
You might have to open the motor and take readings direct from the windings as there can be an overload device of some sort on the 1/2 winding. That will actually give you a clue how it was wired to begin with. Just make notes and take pictures at every stage.
 

Online Gyro

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Re: Problem with air compressor pump motor
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2024, 07:35:22 pm »
Note that most of those Chinese clones of the Hyundai low noise compressors use CCA (copper clad aluminium), rather than copper wire, for their windings. As a result, they run hotter and are prone to failure. Pay particular attention to any joints you find in the motor and be careful not to accidentally strip the [copper] cladding off the wire, otherwise it will be impossible to achieve reliable connections.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2024, 07:37:26 pm by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline shockpointTopic starter

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Re: Problem with air compressor pump motor
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2024, 02:07:21 pm »
Note that most of those Chinese clones of the Hyundai low noise compressors use CCA (copper clad aluminium), rather than copper wire, for their windings. As a result, they run hotter and are prone to failure. Pay particular attention to any joints you find in the motor and be careful not to accidentally strip the [copper] cladding off the wire, otherwise it will be impossible to achieve reliable connections.
Thanks for the tip - I did notice this in stripping a single phase fan motor. Which brings me to the question - How do you reliably remove the varnish without removing the copper cladding? Typically for copper wires I just sandpaper with 1000 grit but with copper cladded alu I'm not so sure

You might have to open the motor and take readings direct from the windings as there can be an overload device of some sort on the 1/2 winding. That will actually give you a clue how it was wired to begin with. Just make notes and take pictures at every stage.

I suspect a thermal fuse from the common side of the motor might have blown. I have spent the last 2 weeks stripping a fan motor and I've learned quite a lot! Now going back to the compressor motor, hopefully nothing requiring a full re-wind.
 

Online Gyro

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Re: Problem with air compressor pump motor
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2024, 07:03:52 pm »
Note that most of those Chinese clones of the Hyundai low noise compressors use CCA (copper clad aluminium), rather than copper wire, for their windings. As a result, they run hotter and are prone to failure. Pay particular attention to any joints you find in the motor and be careful not to accidentally strip the [copper] cladding off the wire, otherwise it will be impossible to achieve reliable connections.
Thanks for the tip - I did notice this in stripping a single phase fan motor. Which brings me to the question - How do you reliably remove the varnish without removing the copper cladding? Typically for copper wires I just sandpaper with 1000 grit but with copper cladded alu I'm not so sure

Good question. I've not done it, but I would think either carefully applied heat, or solvent. Something like polyurethane will burn off well before the Alu, but I've seen videos of CCA melting really easily in a lighter flame. Maybe hot air. Otherwise some sort of paint thinner? It all depends on the composition of the insulation.

You might get away with careful abrasion, I don't know how thin the copper layer of CCA is (and how much it varies!).
« Last Edit: May 27, 2024, 07:05:28 pm by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline andy3055

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Re: Problem with air compressor pump motor
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2024, 09:58:26 pm »
If you are unable to solder, you can always crimp it to a copper "pig tail" and use that wire to make the necessary solder connections. Your first problem will be to make sure the individual windings are still intact.
 


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