Author Topic: Rejuvenating batteries  (Read 7270 times)

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Offline Armadillo

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Re: Rejuvenating batteries
« Reply #50 on: January 08, 2018, 02:07:58 pm »
Wow. Stunning :-)

I would charge this with the same TP5100, yes?

 :-+
 

Offline msknight

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Re: Rejuvenating batteries
« Reply #51 on: January 08, 2018, 02:10:50 pm »
try charging it with a TP5100 module safely and let us all know how it goes.....

So you're saying that if I hook this 3.7v 500mAh LiPo up to the TP5100 ... then I'll have a recreation of the New Year fireworks on my workbench. Yes?
 

Offline Armadillo

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Offline msknight

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Re: Rejuvenating batteries
« Reply #53 on: January 08, 2018, 02:33:35 pm »
What soubitos is saying sort of makes sense to my beginner brain.

"unless you want to desolder the 1.2K stock smd resistor (can be 0805-0603 or even 0402 in some pcbs) and replace it with a 2.4K"

I think this is worth doing.  What do people think?
 

Offline Armadillo

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Re: Rejuvenating batteries
« Reply #54 on: January 08, 2018, 02:57:30 pm »
You can also go for this 80 cents charger if you are too worried.
This is a small VA battery, in reality it will very quickly switch from constant current to constant voltage mode where the current will be freewheeling reduced down accordingly.
Anyone using intelligent charger will knows this, example setting the charger to 10A doesn't mean it will be charging at 10A continuously.
AFAIK, You begin to be more concerned if your battery will cost you above $100. [those Hi-capacity battery for speed racing or heli].

Don't need to reinvent the grains when commercially there is already simple charger for it.
If in doubt, ask the seller of the battery for the recommended charger.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/5V-1A-1S-3-7V-Li-ion-18650-Lithium-Lipo-Battery-Charging-Module-Charger-Board/322366742192?hash=item4b0e8e1eb0:g:xooAAOSwUchaNIn8

Below is the E-Flite charger. Small nice heli Blade MCPX I had.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/E-Flite-EFLC1006-Celectra-1S-3-7-Variable-Rate-LiPo-Charger-Blade-Nano-QX-FPV-SR-/253340725347

AFAIK, don't need to spend that kind of money.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 03:18:23 pm by Armadillo »
 

Offline msknight

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Re: Rejuvenating batteries
« Reply #55 on: January 08, 2018, 03:14:44 pm »
A big part of my problem is that  I've got a task that I need to do, which is way above the little knowledge that I've got.

I've already managed to upset someone because I'm speed reading... and there's a lot to take in here.

I'll be home in a few hours, and then I can sit and read through all this carefully.

I'd like to take a moment to thank everyone for their patience with me on this. I'm still trying to find myself a suitable electronics course. There is a penny about electronics that isn't dropping in my head, and none of the YT videos I've watch yet, have flipped the light switch in my head.
 

Offline soubitos

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Re: Rejuvenating batteries
« Reply #56 on: January 08, 2018, 04:28:02 pm »


Quote from: msknight on Today at 04:10:50 PM


>Quote from: soubitos on Today at 04:03:06 PM
try charging it with a TP5100 module safely and let us all know how it goes.....



So you're saying that if I hook this 3.7v 500mAh LiPo up to the TP5100 ... then I'll have a recreation of the New Year fireworks on my workbench. Yes?

I say it is NOT recommended by ANY source, be it manufacturer or online to charge a li-ion battery... ANY li-ion battery not made for the task, to charge it more than 0.5-1C (meaning if its 500mAh, it is safe to charge it with 250-500mAh.... the fact an intelligent charger will go to CV mode sooner if charged faster than its spec does not mean it is safe or does any good to the battery at all.... to the best of my experience you will either destroy the battery much faster than you'd hope or you can potentially cause it to overheat with all that means on a lithium battery.... Although TP4056/5100 are temperature protected themselves, the batteries are not, not if you buy the average modules offered on ebay etc. If you go with a TP4056 which is the cheaper and logical module for the task, you COULD possible incorporate an NTC to check battery temp.... with TP5100 something like that would be impossible (its a tiny QFN package, you will not be able to connect anything to pin 11 unless you desolder the chip, disconnect it from GND and attach the resistors and NTC required and solder the chip back in place (from what you say you are new to all this so if more advanced ppl can't do this, or wouldn't do this, i wonder how and why you would!)
The claim is ok to allow a potential max of 2A which is 4-8 times the battery spec pass through it, even momentarily defies all i know about electronics, ohms law, the fact a "smart"charger with CC/CV capability is requires etc but then, i really dont know that much myself so i rest my case saying "you have been warned, informed and are free to risk your batteries, money, time and whatever is near the lithium pack you might get involved with"


 

Offline james_s

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Re: Rejuvenating batteries
« Reply #57 on: January 08, 2018, 04:41:52 pm »
Edit: If you ever dismantle any of those GPS/Car camera etc.. you will find these bare unprotected small capacity lipo in it. Because the VA is low, you don't exactly need to be overly concerned or worried about it.

If there is no protection circuit attached to the cell then it is built into the electronics of the device it is in. Even a small low current Li-ion pouch will catch fire if sufficiently overcharged and will be damaged by excessive discharge. Some form of protection is mandatory.
 

Offline Armadillo

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Re: Rejuvenating batteries
« Reply #58 on: January 08, 2018, 05:04:09 pm »
Edit: If you ever dismantle any of those GPS/Car camera etc.. you will find these bare unprotected small capacity lipo in it. Because the VA is low, you don't exactly need to be overly concerned or worried about it.

If there is no protection circuit attached to the cell then it is built into the electronics of the device it is in. Even a small low current Li-ion pouch will catch fire if sufficiently overcharged and will be damaged by excessive discharge. Some form of protection is mandatory.

Any batteries may also catch into fire if it is sufficiently overcharged and any batteries will also be damaged if it excessively discharged.
Mandatory as in "must", "necessary" in your terms or by act of LAW?
I have alot of lipos that don't meet the mandatory. Infact alot of helis, drones flyer will be facing the same situation in the US, in the UK in the world.

Above 1000mA batteries short circuit test;


I am not against batteries with pcm. By all means, have it.
IMHO those <500mA ones, you can rethink about it.  ;)





« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 05:45:59 pm by Armadillo »
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Rejuvenating batteries
« Reply #59 on: January 08, 2018, 05:13:25 pm »
As you're in the UK, have a chat with Mjolinor about cell protection boards. He's up to his ears in the things - they're really tiny and work well....

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/fs-single-cell-liion-battery-management/

Even with protected cells, there's no harm in having an additional protection board in-line, just a tiny increase in quiescent current.
Chris

"Victor Meldrew, the Crimson Avenger!"
 
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Offline msknight

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Re: Rejuvenating batteries
« Reply #60 on: January 08, 2018, 05:44:33 pm »
OK, I'm going to ask a stupid question here....

Both those units, the 5v mini usb and the TP5100 ... they both have full LED's. So... do they not stop charging?

Or is the issue that once they've fully charged, they drop down a little and start charging again, and cycle like that?

Or that they are being charged too fast?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 05:47:21 pm by msknight »
 

Offline Armadillo

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Re: Rejuvenating batteries
« Reply #61 on: January 08, 2018, 05:58:40 pm »
OK, I'm going to ask a stupid question here....

Both those units, the 5v mini usb and the TP5100 ... they both have full LED's. So... do they not stop charging?

Or is the issue that once they've fully charged, they drop down a little and start charging again, and cycle like that?

Or that they are being charged too fast?

These are dedicated intelligent charger, constant current and constant voltage mode.
Please see attached datasheet, please self-translate it.
For the TP5100, need to set to single cells and you can alter the charging current. Read it.

TP5100 is designed for double section 8.4V / single section 4.2V
Lithium-ion battery design and switching of large current charger
Chip, the use of power transistors inside the chip into the battery
Line Trickle, constant current and constant voltage charge. Charge current can be used
External resistor programming, the maximum sustained charge current up
2A, do not need additional anti-reflux diode. TP5100 included
Two open-drain output status indication output, charging
Status indicator CHRG and battery full status indication input
STDBY out. The chip's internal power management circuitry is at
Chip junction temperature exceeds 145 ? automatically reduce the charge
Flow, this feature allows users to maximize the use of the core
Chip power handling capabilities, do not have to worry about the chip overheating and loss
Bad chip or external components.
When the input voltage is greater than the chip start-up threshold voltage and
The chip enable input is tied high (VREG) or left floating
When the TP5100 starts charging the battery, the CHRG pin
Output low, indicating that charging is in progress. If double section
Lithium-ion battery voltage is lower than 5.8V (single-cell lithium battery
Lower than 2.9V), the battery charger with a small current
Trickle precharge (precharge current through external resistor can be
Tune). Constant current charging current from VS pin and VBAT tube
The resistance between the feet is fixed. When the double lithium-ion battery voltage
Close to 8.4V (single lithium-ion battery close to 4.2V)
The charge cut-off voltage is about 50mV (depending on the electricity
Road connection resistance and battery resistance voltage is different), charging electricity
Flow is gradually reduced, TP5100 into constant voltage charging mode. when
Charging current reduced to cut-off current, the charge cycle junction
Bunch, CHRG end output high impedance state, STDBY end lose
Low out.
When the battery voltage drops to the recharge threshold (two lithium-ion
Sub-battery 8.1V / single lithium-ion battery 4.05V), since
Start a new charging cycle. High-precision chip internal
Voltage reference, error amplifier and resistor divider network indeed
Battery-side cut-off voltage accuracy of + -1% or less, to meet
Lithium-ion battery charging requirements. When the input voltage is powered down
Or the input voltage is lower than the battery voltage, the charger goes low
Power down mode, without external anti-back-diode,
Battery leakage from the chip close to 1uA.

The choice of cut-off voltage. When CS is connected to high potential
VREG, 8.4V dual-cell lithium-ion battery charging standard
Quasi, cut-off voltage 8.4V. When CS end vacant, as a single
Lithium-ion battery battery charging standard, cut-off voltage 4.2V.
When CS is tied low GND, the charger stops
Charge.
TP5100's CS-side composite design, you can pass
The external control determines that the TP5100 is in charge mode and downtime
Mode switch.
When the CS side vacant, said TP5100 for a single lithium from
Sub-battery charge.
8.4V dual lithium-ion battery charging status and downtime
Mode switch. Shown in Figure 4, through an open drain input
The output port is connected with the CS terminal if the gate of the NMOS transistor is input
Low, N1 end, this time CS termination high
Charge cut-off voltage of 8.4V, TP5100 for the two-cell lithium from
Sub-battery charge. When the NMOS transistor gate input high,
N1 turns on, at this moment CS end is pulled down to GND, TP5100
For the stop mode. VREG pin can output 5mA drive power
Flow, pull-up resistor optional 1k-100k.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Rejuvenating batteries
« Reply #62 on: January 08, 2018, 06:00:17 pm »
Mandatory as in necessary, to build a cell with no protection into a consumer device with no protection is something I would consider gross negligence, I don't know what law(s) may apply. My RC airplanes and multirotors all have a low voltage cutout, not something intended to be used regularly but it is there to prevent damage to the cells if for some reason one flies too long. The packs are not charged in the craft, but removed and connected to a purpose designed charger which itself contains the protection and monitoring circuitry to prevent the cells from being overcharged. This is something one has to consider when thinking of retrofitting Li-ion batteries into a device not originally designed to use them.

Most batteries will only charge up to a certain point and are then self limiting, if you keep pushing energy into the cell it will dissipate that energy as heat but it will not just keep charging. Li-ion chemistries are different in that if there is a point where they will self limit, it's beyond the point at which they catch fire. If you keep charging a Li-ion battery the voltage will keep rising, and at some point it *will* burn.

LiPos are particularly dangerous as far as batteries go. I have personally witnessed a large electric RC helicopter go down in flames, and I know several guys who have had LiPo packs catch fire while charging, mostly due to using old/improperly configured chargers. At least a few guys on the RC forum lost their houses, sheds or cars to battery fires. It's common enough to warrant taking precautions.



 
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Offline msknight

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Re: Rejuvenating batteries
« Reply #63 on: January 08, 2018, 06:03:52 pm »
I read the post... but the PDF is mandarin.

I have also been reading about the chip on the 5V USB - http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/datasheet/405642f.pdf

They seem to cut off when they detect a full charge.

I've got the feeling I'm missing something obvious.
 

Offline soubitos

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Re: Rejuvenating batteries
« Reply #64 on: January 08, 2018, 06:13:46 pm »


Quote from: msknight on Today at 08:03:52 PM
I read the post... but the PDF is mandarin.

I have also been reading about the chip on the 5V USB -
http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/datasheet/405642f.pdf

They seem to cut off when they detect a full charge.

I've got the feeling I'm missing something obvious.

ltc4056 and tp4056 are two very different beasts


 

Offline Armadillo

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Re: Rejuvenating batteries
« Reply #65 on: January 08, 2018, 06:18:55 pm »
I read the post... but the PDF is mandarin.

I have also been reading about the chip on the 5V USB - http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/datasheet/405642f.pdf

They seem to cut off when they detect a full charge.

I've got the feeling I'm missing something obvious.

You will need to buy one and test for yourself and then you learn something. Make sure you put current meter to see the charge current and so you will be amazed of what you learn. This will form your electronic foundation.
They all cut out when fully charged. But it will be in constant voltage mode not  constant current. To explain to you the 2 modes, too lengthy. I try.
When the battery voltage increases when charged, a 4.2 constant voltage impressed across the battery cannot sustain constant current mode anymore, hence goes into constant voltage modes and the current constantly reduce by itself until terminal voltage is reached [50mv] and the charging stop.

This is not the constant current you made out of LM7805 where it continously charge at constant current. [search LM7805 constant current].
 

Offline Armadillo

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Re: Rejuvenating batteries
« Reply #66 on: January 08, 2018, 06:23:00 pm »
Mandatory as in necessary,

Fortunately I checked James_s dictionary.
Like I say, I am not against PCM.
Cheers !
 

Offline msknight

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Re: Rejuvenating batteries
« Reply #67 on: January 08, 2018, 06:34:05 pm »
Thank you very much.

I have a lot of reading to do.
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: Rejuvenating batteries
« Reply #68 on: January 08, 2018, 06:44:20 pm »
Li-ion chemistries are different in that if there is a point where they will self limit, it's beyond the point at which they catch fire. If you keep charging a Li-ion battery the voltage will keep rising, and at some point it *will* burn.

Also discharging ...

https://youtu.be/Svyv8jgwq0Y

Offline soubitos

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Re: Rejuvenating batteries
« Reply #69 on: January 08, 2018, 06:51:59 pm »
Better Safe Thank Sorry... 
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Rejuvenating batteries
« Reply #70 on: January 08, 2018, 07:46:06 pm »
You can't make the battery explode by over-discharging directly because at that point there is no energy left in the cell to create the fire. Over-discharge can damage the cell though creating a dangerous situation if it is then recharged. A short circuit or overload on a mostly charged cell can easily result in a fire too. Most fires seem to occur while charging, followed by mishaps with fully or mostly charged cells.
 
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Offline Armadillo

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Re: Rejuvenating batteries
« Reply #71 on: January 08, 2018, 08:17:16 pm »
Looks like the plane burnt because its a nitro plane and the fuel is burning.
Engine Overheats, spark etc... the fire triangle likely.
AFAIK lipo don't burn like that.
Yes, lipo is dangerous!
This forum is about discussion so it would always be best to quantify with the merit of sizes [capacity] in the discussion, too general makes it too grey.
Yes, lipo is dangerous! and practice caution is necessary in handling it.

Many people worried that the battery will overcharged to the extent that it will burnt.
But OP will be using the charging board that will limit and protect against such overcharging.
I think he intends to mount it in, hence inadvertent charging would be unlikely.

Yes, put pcm additonal one. Its better to be safe than sorry......................blah blah blah blah...

 



 

Offline james_s

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Re: Rejuvenating batteries
« Reply #72 on: January 08, 2018, 08:21:33 pm »
No, it's not a nitro plane, it's electric. As I mentioned I've personally seen a large electric heli burn similarly at the field where I fly. If you do a youtube search for "lipo fire" there are hundreds of videos, many of them deliberate tests but some accidents as well. They do indeed produce a large fireball as flammable electrolyte is vented.
 

Offline Armadillo

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Re: Rejuvenating batteries
« Reply #73 on: January 08, 2018, 10:09:44 pm »
It's nice to know a fellow flyer.

Generally, AFAIK, if it's a wide flat head, it's a nitro plane. Electric plane only needs narrow head. Also for electric plane, the Lipo will be placed at the CG of the plane near the wing [around] because of the weight.
For nitro, the smaller battery will be placed further back from the head because the engine is heavier.






« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 04:37:52 am by Armadillo »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Rejuvenating batteries
« Reply #74 on: January 08, 2018, 10:37:00 pm »
Lots of planes these days are available in multiple power options and many guys retrofit older nitro planes with electric power, you can't always tell just by looking at the airframe except for foamies which are universally electric.
 


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